Drinkers Diary Vs Alcoholics Anonymous

[tuky]

Everybody has choices and what will work for one, won't work for another.

Sorry ThaiPauly but nobody has 'choices'

We are we are and we do what we do.

We drink or stop drinking only if we are able to.

Certain catalysts may help us go in one direction as opposed to the other but at the end of the day we can only do what we can only do.

I believe that if you accept the above you are more likely to accept yourself.

Truth is, people need alcohol like others need power, or sex, or pity, or money. You can fight it but then you fight yourself.

MB

Sorry man, but that is not the kind of attitude that should be expressed in a forum where folks are trying to give up dependencies that rule their lives. Unfortunately there is a minority in this world that aren't perfect and need a little help to stop ourselves from dying younger than we should.

Troll?

[Neeranam]

10th Tradition: No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial issues—particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning such matters they can express no views whatever.

I'm glad you posted that. All I can tell those who want to quit booze is how I did it and that was by going to AA.

The thing that helped me was the advice and opinions of those who had a similar experience to I and managed to quit.

If you have a drink problem, is it wise to take the advice of those who don't/didn't, or those who are still drinking?

[moobaa]

Everybody has choices and what will work for one, won't work for another.

Sorry ThaiPauly but nobody has 'choices'

We are we are and we do what we do.

We drink or stop drinking only if we are able to.

Certain catalysts may help us go in one direction as opposed to the other but at the end of the day we can only do what we can only do.

I believe that if you accept the above you are more likely to accept yourself.

Truth is, people need alcohol like others need power, or sex, or pity, or money. You can fight it but then you fight yourself.

MB

Sorry man, but that is not the kind of attitude that should be expressed in a forum where folks are trying to give up dependencies that rule their lives. Unfortunately there is a minority in this world that aren't perfect and need a little help to stop ourselves from dying younger than we should.

Troll?

tuky - I'm on your side and in the same boat to a certain extent.

I guess what I was tring to say was that you should accept it as part of youself and not see it as some sort of failure.

If you are lucky you'll come through and I think you will.

Good luck

MB.

[tuky]

Cheers mate, I jumped in a bit too quickSo I apologise for my abruptness.

Thanks for your support.

We are setting the date for the 30th of this month. Why don't you join us? There are several of us going for 90 days, one day at a time. If you are in a similar position why don't you give 7 days a go or similar? In the long run it can only be beneficial.

Cheers pal.

tuky

[sabaijai]

If you have a drink problem, is it wise to take the advice of those who don't/didn't, or those who are still drinking?

I'd say best to follow a qualified medical programme based on the lastest in addiction recovery, preferably with a high success rate, such as cognitive therapy, motivational enhancement, bibliotherapy or the use of Acamprosate or Naltrexone, all of which rank highly in the Handbook of alcoholism treatment approaches.

[ProThaiExpat]

AA can be considered a smorgasbord by those who have difficulty with acceptance at first. Take what you can or want from the program and leave the rest.

AA is filled with people, and varies from one extreme to the other, as people do. Religious nuts to Atheists. AA Nazis to Flower Children. The tent is big enough for all.

While non-alcoholics are entitled to their opinion, consider the source when dealing with the issue.

Until one reaches his own individual "bottom" and really wants to give up drinking, no program will help.

As those who are recoverd alcoholics will tell you, alcoholism is a mental affliction more than one of the body. Sobering up for any length of time, regardless of the method, doesn't help in long term recovery without mental therapy.

Most treatment facilities for alcoholism urge post facility long term treatment through AA. The Betty Ford Clinic, for example, one of the more famous treatment centers, is a thirty day program where the patients remain sober in the facility for at least thirty days, but outpatient care is referred to AA.

AA is the preferred care institution of Judges sentencing offenders for drunk driving.

If one were to conduct a poll among those in this forum and honesty was applied, my guess is the AA members would far outweigh all other methods for those who have maintained sobriety for decades,

[Mark L.]

If anyone is serious and interesting in something a little different I suggest the book "Rational Recovery" (I believe there are groups around etc too)

The book, like most of what actually works IMO, is opposite of the norm. Quite frankly I don't see the norm succeeding in much any where.

It challanges the notion that it is a disease and is basically opposite in almost every way to AA.

According to it the success rate in AA is way lower than people who just decide to never drink again.

It pisses off alot of AA people.

It is written for alcohol and drugs (they don't use the word addiction as it says you aren't in controle and can do nothing about it..like it says 'support group' says you can't do it alone and are too weak...or if you say you will never drink again they say you're in denial).

I used it for smoking. Actually I heard about the basic concept and became a none smoker on the spot with no real cravings or difficulty.

If you're open minded and ONLY IF you are ready to become a non drinker should you read. It will tell you to put the book down if you are not ready to make that choice.

They explain how to get rid of the cravings-actually worked like a charm for me.

Now I know everyone is different but IF someone is serious this stuff make so much sense (gets into the 'reptillian' brain where our 'cravings' so to speak come from.

Anyway I hope not to offend anyone in AA. Like I said its a different angle.

On a physical level I would try to eat healthy and suppliment with good quality fish oils (high omega 3s)

Some people that focus on this area get very good results with the fish oils and there have been studies that back it all up (fresults are all that really matters though) with.

It explains why when you challenge the notion of it being a disease why it makes some people upset too... Thats the reptillian brains way of keeping what it wants coming. It needs that excuse to get you to give it what it wants.

if interested check it out...

if not don't

[Mark L.]

By the way if you don't like reading...

I was became a non-smoker (quitters see how long they can quit becoming a non-smoker is a perminant dec). After about 15mins of hearing about how it worked.

The woman who told me read about 2 chapters (she was a BIG drinker), became a non-drinker and never read the rest of the book.

I borrowed just to learn and see what else was in there (I knew I'd never smoke again). After a few chapters a couldn't be bothered to continue.. but I tried...I'm always hungry for knowlage.. It was good stuff but it didn't matter really and I couldn't finnish.

All you need to know is IF you are ready and how it works (you learn to controle the part of your mind that wants its wants).. thats in the first few chapters..

So even if you don't like readiong...

I don't have tons of experience with this method and drinkers but the thing makes a hel_l of a lot of sense to me and worked for me and the woman who told me.

According to the book many heroin and cocain addicts etc have used it easily enough.

(I had tried to quit many times before and always had huge cravings-fighting it so hard you think you're going crazy)

If it seems like something you want to try-good luck

If not-good luck

[ThaiPauly]

By the way if you don't like reading...

I was became a non-smoker (quitters see how long they can quit becoming a non-smoker is a perminant dec). After about 15mins of hearing about how it worked.

The woman who told me read about 2 chapters (she was a BIG drinker), became a non-drinker and never read the rest of the book.

I borrowed just to learn and see what else was in there (I knew I'd never smoke again). After a few chapters a couldn't be bothered to continue.. but I tried...I'm always hungry for knowlage.. It was good stuff but it didn't matter really and I couldn't finnish.

All you need to know is IF you are ready and how it works (you learn to controle the part of your mind that wants its wants).. thats in the first few chapters..

So even if you don't like readiong...

I don't have tons of experience with this method and drinkers but the thing makes a hel_l of a lot of sense to me and worked for me and the woman who told me.

According to the book many heroin and cocain addicts etc have used it easily enough.

(I had tried to quit many times before and always had huge cravings-fighting it so hard you think you're going crazy)

If it seems like something you want to try-good luck

If not-good luck

Have you a LINK to this particular book, or information about it that we can read on line?

Thank You

TP

[sabaijai]

If one were to conduct a poll among those in this forum and honesty was applied, my guess is the AA members would far outweigh all other methods for those who have maintained sobriety for decades,

I would take the opinions of medical experts carrying out longtitudinal, cross-sectional empirical research on alcohol addiction over anecodotal testimony on ThaiVisa myself.

[Mark L.]

I wouldn't take ANYONES advice blindly and without thought.

I suggest using your logic, intuition and doing a little study.

I also don't listen to much the so called medical experts say either. Read JAMAs (one of the most highly respected med journal) article on how US docs are the third leading cause of death.

Also keep in mind that out of 15,000 food and drug researchers looked at only 75 were considered independant (The Ecologist)

Its all to do with what paradigm you subscribe to..

Although if med science says its an addiction and AA says you WILL drink again. What is the harm or risk in trying something that says differently and actually says you could be done with it?

Don't blindly follow ANYONES advise when it comes to YOUR health.

I look to someone who walks the talk and IS healthy and also someone who gets results and I look for logic and study it.

On this book itself-all I can give you are my experiences and opinions.

One modle says we are weak and cannot do anything for ourselves. We are at the mercy of drugs and knives.

The other modle says we can take our health into our own hands and that we all have the reponsibility to do so and its no one else.

Follow what ever modle is right for you.

[Mark L.]

Sorry I know nothing of the book or sites other than remmebering the title and some of what was in its early pages..

I'm sure a search on line will give you something. They have groups etc as well. (If memory serves success rates for AA-the real numbers was something like less than 10% or somethig crazy-do you gamble? Would you take those odds?)

One model says you can

One says you can't (so if you fail at the one that says you can whats the prob?)

By the way I have no idea how long ago it was-it says we should congratualte ourselves for something we shouldn't do in the first place and if you truely decide to never do it again what are you counting days for? My guess is about 2 years with practically NO cravings at all. I DID have cravings when I tried to quit the many other times.

Basically your 'reptialian brain' can't think. It just wants. When ever it starts wanting you can use your neomammilian brain ('human brain') to say no. The cravings are basically its way of getting what it wants.

When you start thinking 'i need a smoke' that is your 'human' brain expanding on your 'reptialians; brains want. When you can recognize this and change the wording its amazing what happens.

If you are serious and actually really do want to quit FOREVER. I can give you the run down. I think the book would be better but and if I won't explain it all as well but if you want I don't mind-whats the worst that can happen? You ened up where you are now?

[Neeranam]

I look to someone who walks the talk and IS healthy and also someone who gets results and I look for logic and study it.

Good advice

[Limbo]

Of course it is an understament to say that the AA has religious undertones, but they will anyhow go unnoticed to believers because the existence of a God is a word of God to them. So part of this discussion hangs anyhow 'between the clouds'.

Religious people are like communists, they think in circles and are therefore always right.

I went to the first AA meeting in Chiang Rai ever.

I went together with a visiting friend who has been a munk (Bhuddist) for seven years now.

His presence was not really appreciated, it seemed to confuse the gentleman who was chairman-ex-drinker.

Anyhow, the meeting was in a building on a church compound, there was a portrait of Jezus on the wall and the chairman-ex-drinker mentioned the name of God about twelve times within ten minutes.

When I pointed this out to him he told us that the AA had absolutely nothing to do with religion .

When I pointed out that his logic was so far based on the assumption of the existence of the Christian God he didn't reply but changed tactics.

It was 'THE Book' now, that he put to our attention: THE Book!

That he presented THE Book in a way a Christian presents the Bible to the infidels propably went unnoticed to himself.

My friend the Bikkhu saw my disappointment and spoke some wise words, which might be of help to anybody who wants to stop drinking and thinks that he needs the AA for that:

Replace the word 'God' for the word 'Mind' and maybe the AA method will make some sense after all. Even in a Buddhist environment.

Limbo

[Mark L.]

lol You're gonna piss off more people than me

Adictions are funny things regardless of the 'truth' of the matter.

My personal belief is the healthier one is the less one craves anything. This is all aspects of health.

I also suspect that when the body is lacking in any area it will want... When we have a vise that is what we think we want.

I also believe that the body talks to us but if we are unhealthy we don't get the right signals and or can't interpret them.

Example with thirst. Some researchers believe that we can't tell the difference between hunger and thirst (everyone sitting here thinking of extreams.. But when we are that thirsty we are already dehydrated) Its amazing how many people cutr back on over eating when getting adequatly hydrated.

I suspect hydration will play a factor in many peoples cravings for booze. Omega 3s certainly do..

just some rambling..

I won't comment on religion lol othyer than its funny how we all think we're right

Imagine if you were born into something else...we'd think that was the way too

[Mobi]

Limbo,

That's about what I figured on the AA which is why I have never been. I may be wrong, but I doubt it's for me. There's quite enough people trying to ram religion down my throat without the AA joining in. Ok Ok I know - they don't ram it - it's just there and referred to frequently

Anyway if it works for some, I'd be the last to knock it - same with any religous belief, if it makes you happy then good luck to you.

Mark L,

I may have missed it, but have you declared your position in this matter? Just so that I know where you're coming from - do you have an alcohol 'problem', or are you just an interested observer?

Edited June 25, 2006 by Mobi D'Ark

[Neeranam]

Replace the word 'God' for the word 'Mind' jap.gif and maybe the AA method will make some sense after all. Even in a Buddhist environment.

Actually the word God has been replaced in Thai AA with สิ่งศักดิ์สิทธSing sud sid

the "serenity prayer" often said at AA meetings is

ขอสิ่งศักดิ์สิทธิ์ ให้ความสงบแก่ข้า

ให้ยอมรับสิ่งที่เปลี่ยนไม่ได้

ให้กล้าเปลี่ยนสิ่งที่เปลี่ยนได้

และปัญญาที่จะแยกแยะ

May holy things give me peace

Let me accept things that cannot be changed

Give me the courage to change things that can be changed

and the wisdom to know right from wrong.

จุดสาคัญก็คือเขาจะต้องเต็มใจที่จะเชี่อในพลานุภาพที่ยิ่งใหญ่กว่าตัวเขา และจะดำรงชีวิตตามกภเกณฑ์ของจิตวิญญาณ

"The main thing is that he be willing to believe in a Power greater than himself and that he live by spiritual principles."

Idf anyonre is interested in any more translations of the "Big Book", ask.

[sabaijai]

I look to someone who walks the talk and IS healthy and also someone who gets results and I look for logic and study it.

What if when studying the programme this healthy person followed and looking for logic, you found no logic?

[Mark L.]

Sabaijai-then its probably not for you

Mobi-I was a smoker who tried quitting time and time again. The concepts from this book were given to me and I stopped forever that moment. I later read some of the book. The person who told me and lent me the book was an ex HUGE drinker (I don't like the word alcoholic).

I never had a drinking problem.

The book is written for alcohol and drug problems.

[robitusson]

A.A. is religion in disguise.

All the "you can't control your yourself, you're helpless" is a prelude to "finding a higher power". What they don't tell you is that recovery rates with A.A. programs are exactly the same as through will power alone (about 10%).

There was a good Penn & Teller episode about A.A. where they went through the history of it, I'd recommend anyone to check it out.

Alcoholism is not a disease, it's a behaviour.

Spot on. You'll have quite a job convincing people with the amount of pseudo-scientific misinformation and religious mumbo-jumbo that surrounds this issue.

[tuky]

whatever...

[robitusson]

AA can be considered a smorgasbord by those who have difficulty with acceptance at first. Take what you can or want from the program and leave the rest.

AA is filled with people, and varies from one extreme to the other, as people do. Religious nuts to Atheists. AA Nazis to Flower Children. The tent is big enough for all.

While non-alcoholics are entitled to their opinion, consider the source when dealing with the issue.

Until one reaches his own individual "bottom" and really wants to give up drinking, no program will help.

As those who are recoverd alcoholics will tell you, alcoholism is a mental affliction more than one of the body. Sobering up for any length of time, regardless of the method, doesn't help in long term recovery without mental therapy.

Most treatment facilities for alcoholism urge post facility long term treatment through AA. The Betty Ford Clinic, for example, one of the more famous treatment centers, is a thirty day program where the patients remain sober in the facility for at least thirty days, but outpatient care is referred to AA.

AA is the preferred care institution of Judges sentencing offenders for drunk driving.

If one were to conduct a poll among those in this forum and honesty was applied, my guess is the AA members would far outweigh all other methods for those who have maintained sobriety for decades,

Interesting. If such a poll was conducted and the results were as you say, it would be completely against the rest of the evidence out there which puts AA's success rate at between 5% and 10%. Let me know how many links you want to the literature about this.

[robitusson]

whatever...

Whatever? Ok then. Pseudo science and religious mumbo-jumbo it is then.

[tuky]

Whatever...exactly...

We can debate what will work until the fat lady sings.

The only thing that will cause someone to stop is the desire to.

Everything else is a crutch.

[sabaijai]

The only thing that will cause someone to stop is the desire to.

This is a exactly what the research shows, and is in direct contraction to 12-step programme philosophies, which claim 'alcoholics' are powerless against alcohol. If you were truly powerless over alcohol, then the desire to stop would have no effect.

[tuky]

All concerned, we are not debating what program works.

We are here in the "I drink too much" forum because we drink too much. Not because we want to know if AA or DD or ZZ or GG or YY will help us, but because we want to help ourselves.

SO please take your debate elsewhere.

Lets us get along with what we have to do.

ANd we are stopping on the 30th. Whether AA, or DD likes it or not.

I hope TV will open a special place for us ,where we do not have to listen to the above crap.

[ThaiPauly]

.Anyhow, the meeting was in a building on a church compound, there was a portrait of Jezus on the wall and the chairman-ex-drinker mentioned the name of God about twelve times within ten minutes.

.Limbo

So You went to a meeting in a CHURCH Compound and there was a picture of JESUS on the wall.

Well I never

[sabaijai]

With all due respect, Tuky, this thread was opened precisely to discuss methods for quitting.

ANd we are stopping on the 30th. Whether AA, or DD likes it or not.

Wishing you the best of luck.

[robitusson]

This is a exactly what the research shows, and is in direct contraction to 12-step programme philosophies, which claim 'alcoholics' are powerless against alcohol. If you were truly powerless over alcohol, then the desire to stop would have no effect.

Absolutely. The concept of powerlessness in AA is essential for potential members to submit to the central religious beliefs of the movement.

Pointing out the ineffectiveness of AA and what its real purposes are, is crucial to helping people quit. If people think that AA can help them quit, when all evidence is to the contrary, then it is of paramount importance that they know about it so they can make informed choices on what better options there are.

Good luck to all giving up too.

Edited June 28, 2006 by robitusson

[tuky]

With all due respect, Tuky, this thread was opened precisely to discuss methods for quitting.

ANd we are stopping on the 30th. Whether AA, or DD likes it or not.

Wishing you the best of luck.

Understood mate, but why are we condoning statements like the following?

The concept of powerlessness in AA is essential for potential members to submit to the central religious beliefs of the movement.

We are here to quit drinking, not debate whether AA is a relgious organisation or whether ZZ has a sexual conotation etc etc.

So I stand by my post.

If I was to get sober using AA, would that be valid in the eyes of some? but not valid in the eyes of the critics?

Lets just support each other.