Drinkers Diary Vs Alcoholics Anonymous

[Neeranam]

when the recovery rate for the real alkie was 75%, the 3 types were screened for

that is why the recovery rate was so high

now we lump in type 1 & 2, nuts, bi polar, depressives, addicts and misfits, becuse they drink also

Here here - ***flaming deleted***

[robitusson]

Neeranam, you may not like the 5% success rate statistic but it is what is out there if you investigate freely and with an open mind. I openly and sincerely invite you to investigate all the available sources you can find and see what figure you come up with. Go ahead.

By all means form your own opinion of what that may mean. However it's not my or anyone else's fault that the real figures of AA success that are out there don't match up to the anecdotal evidence that some believe to be the real picture. Which source you believe is also up to you of course. For me I'll take the documented and empirical evidence.

Insulting the "nuts" and "misfits" who investigate for themselves and draw their own conclusions with an open mind might make you feel better but it won't change the facts.

Edited November 26, 2006 by robitusson

[robitusson]

By the way, don't you mean "hear, hear"?

Edited November 26, 2006 by robitusson

[Neeranam]

By the way, don't you mean "hear, hear"?

No 'hear hear' is an imperative expressing, according to intonation, admiration, acquiescence, indignation, derision, etc."

'Here here' is an expression used to show agreement - I don't think I've ever used it with you

I thought you, being an English teacher, would know that!

Neeranam, you may not like the 5% success rate statistic but it is what is out there if you investigate freely and with an open mind. I openly and sincerely invite you to investigate all the available sources you can find and see what figure you come up with. Go ahead.

By all means form your own opinion of what that may mean. However it's not my or anyone else's fault that the real figures of AA success that are out there don't match up to the anecdotal evidence that some believe to be the real picture. Which source you believe is also up to you of course. For me I'll take the documented and empirical evidence.

It's not that I don't like that statistic, I just disagree that it means that 5% of 'real' alcoholics, who want to quit drinking AND do the 12 step program thoroughly find success. Who cares less about any figure? You care as you are desparately trying to stop people from going to AA.

A down and out bum real alkie has more chance of using his own will-power to stay sober than going to AA(so says Agent Orange) is total drivel - almost laughable if he weren't saying it seriously. Do you agree with this?

It means 5% of all people who go to AA find success. This is very high considering, as someone else said, all the nuts, addicts, sentenced people etc that go.

What makes you think that I haven't investigated with an open mind? I strongly suggest you do the same, instead of ***ad hominem attacks removed***

I wonder, how many real alcoholics you've helped quit drinking, for more than say 1 year, by telling them to stay away from AA and use their own will power?Lets start making some statistics.

I'll let you answer first and then ask some other people involved in this subforum.

Edited November 29, 2006 by sabaijai

[Mobi]

I was talking to a alcoholic who hasn't had a drop for many years - and stays that way with the regular support of the AA.

He said, and I totally agree with him, that what really pisses him off with Robitissun's evangelism against the AA, is not that he has an opinion, and states it, but that his ceaseless diatribe might prevent some poor alkie out there having their one last shot at salvation.

Even if it's only a 5% shot - it's sure as h..ll better than no shot.

And don't forget - a majority of our readers are in Thailand where there is clearly a high degree of problem drinkers and alcoholics amongst the expatriate community, with little access to any treatment or help other than AA.

None of those alkie specialists or alternative treatments that you might find in your home country.

[jumnien]

I was talking to a alcoholic who hasn't had a drop for many years - and stays that way with the regular support of the AA.

He said, and I totally agree with him, that what really pisses him off with Robitissun's evangelism against the AA, is not that he has an opinion, and states it, but that his ceaseless diatribe might prevent some poor alkie out there having their one last shot at salvation.

Even if it's only a 5% shot - it's sure as h..ll better than no shot.

And don't forget - a majority of our readers are in Thailand where there is clearly a high degree of problem drinkers and alcoholics amongst the expatriate community, with little access to any treatment or help other than AA.

None of those alkie specialists or alternative treatments that you might find in your home country.

Well put Mobi! By the way, would someone provide a credible source for this 5% figure being bandied about?

[sabaijai]

Professionals have conducted surveys among veterans, patients, and selected groups of AAs. The accuracy is not the subject of my knowledge. But the facts about present-day A.A. are these in their studies: (a) A definite 75% fail to maintain sobriety. ( Probably no more than one to five percent maintain permanent sobriety. © As often as not, those who aligned with AA have a lower success rate than those who got sober without AA. (d) To date there has been no adequate survey of success or failure among those AAs who - like the pioneers - were born again Christians, reliant upon the Creator for help, and joined together in some Christian church or Bible fellowship, or prayer group.

AA and Its Success Rates by Dick B., an active, recovered member of the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Comparative success rates for alcohol treatment programs.

More:

The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment

Not coincidentally, five percent is also the usual rate of spontaneous remission in untreated alcoholics. So the real success rate of the Philadelphia A.A. ...

www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html - 388k - Cached - Similar pages

More Big Lies

A 3.5 to 7 percent success rate in achieving lasting sobriety is the norm -- which is ... "Up to two-thirds" could really mean "We usually get five percent, ...

www.orange-papers.org/orange-big_lie.html

AA And Its Success Rates—A Contemporary Brief

( Probably no more than one to five percent maintain permanent sobriety. © As often as not, those who aligned with AA have a lower success rate than ...

www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/article.php?artID=601

Alcoholics Anonymous: Success Rate (Or Lack Thereof) John Again ...

Subject: Up To Date AA (lack of) Success Rate. Cliff Walker,. Are you out there? Hope this is where I can reach you. The five percent remaining after one ...

www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8923.htm

But this ground has been trod endlessly already in another thread on this subforum.

[robitusson]

I would take the opinions of medical experts carrying out longtitudinal, cross-sectional empirical research on alcohol addiction over anecodotal testimony on ThaiVisa myself.

Quite possibly a better source.

[robitusson]

[quoe.

Edited November 30, 2006 by robitusson

[robitusson]

By the way, don't you mean "hear, hear"?

No 'hear hear' is an imperative expressing, according to intonation, admiration, acquiescence, indignation, derision, etc."

'Here here' is an expression used to show agreement - I don't think I've ever used it with you

I thought you, being an English teacher, would know that!

Neeranam, you may not like the 5% success rate statistic but it is what is out there if you investigate freely and with an open mind. I openly and sincerely invite you to investigate all the available sources you can find and see what figure you come up with. Go ahead.

By all means form your own opinion of what that may mean. However it's not my or anyone else's fault that the real figures of AA success that are out there don't match up to the anecdotal evidence that some believe to be the real picture. Which source you believe is also up to you of course. For me I'll take the documented and empirical evidence.

It's not that I don't like that statistic, I just disagree that it means that 5% of 'real' alcoholics, who want to quit drinking AND do the 12 step program thoroughly find success. Who cares less about any figure? You care as you are desparately trying to stop people from going to AA.

A down and out bum real alkie has more chance of using his own will-power to stay sober than going to AA(so says Agent Orange) is total drivel - almost laughable if he weren't saying it seriously. Do you agree with this?

It means 5% of all people who go to AA find success. This is very high considering, as someone else said, all the nuts, addicts, sentenced people etc that go.

What makes you think that I haven't investigated with an open mind? I strongly suggest you do the same, instead of ***ad hominem attacks removed***

I wonder, how many real alcoholics you've helped quit drinking, for more than say 1 year, by telling them to stay away from AA and use their own will power?Lets start making some statistics.

I'll let you answer first and then ask some other people involved in this subforum.

Ok, so you consider the 5% success rate to be high. I would consider it to be low. We disagree on interpretation of the data. Each to their own I suppose.

You have yet to explain what a 'real' alcoholic is. (Is there a 'fake' or maybe 'false' alcoholic by the way?)

Who cares about any figure you ask? Again, up to you if you care or not. I'm interested in it. I'm sure the people who are convinced into believing that AA is the answer to their drinking problems if they follow the program would be very interested in it too.

Thanks for the help with the English too. I've thought about it what you said though and I think I'll stick with the correct version of the phrase.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/178100.html

Edited November 30, 2006 by robitusson

[robitusson]

He said, and I totally agree with him, that what really pisses him off with Robitissun's evangelism against the AA, is not that he has an opinion, and states it, but that his ceaseless diatribe might prevent some poor alkie out there having their one last shot at salvation.

Even if it's only a 5% shot - it's sure as h..ll better than no shot.

And don't forget - a majority of our readers are in Thailand where there is clearly a high degree of problem drinkers and alcoholics amongst the expatriate community, with little access to any treatment or help other than AA.

And you fail to acknowledge that because AA spreads misinformation about alcoholism, focuses on unnecessary quasi-religious beliefs and most importantly doesn't work, so it may actually be adding to the problem.

You're right by the way. 5% is a better shot than no shot, but statistical eveidence (statistics, sorry, not my opinion) shows AA has the same rate as giving up by yourself so why include the cult-lite religion and pseudo-science?

If anything is ceaseless on this forum, it's plugging AA. Haven't you noticed that as long as the constant AA promotion goes on, so do the legitimate and deserved criticisms of it? They go hand-in-hand.

As I've said before, a positive aspect of AA is it is the place where some lucky ones can hear about recovery options that actually do work and change with new information.

[robitusson]

Well put Mobi! By the way, would someone provide a credible source for this 5% figure being bandied about?

As pointed out already.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=83699

Please search for other sources and information.

I posted what I could find

[Mobi]

If anything is ceaseless on this forum, it's plugging AA.

Correction: If anything is ceaseless on this forum, it's you plugging the EVILS of the AA.

I recently noticed you are a teacher

That helps to explain everything

Thank God (or a higher being ) that I'm not one of your students.

You might drive me to drink

Or the AA

[sabaijai]

And don't forget - a majority of our readers are in Thailand where there is clearly a high degree of problem drinkers and alcoholics amongst the expatriate community, with little access to any treatment or help other than AA.

None of those alkie specialists or alternative treatments that you might find in your home country.

I would think most if not all major hospitals in Bangkok offer alcohol treatment programs. In fact AA chapters are relatively rare in Thailand, from what I can tell.

Not anti-AA, just pro-choice ...

[Mobi]

And don't forget - a majority of our readers are in Thailand where there is clearly a high degree of problem drinkers and alcoholics amongst the expatriate community, with little access to any treatment or help other than AA.

None of those alkie specialists or alternative treatments that you might find in your home country.

I would think most if not all major hospitals in Bangkok offer alcohol treatment programs. In fact AA chapters are relatively rare in Thailand, from what I can tell.

Not anti-AA, just pro-choice ...

I'm certainly not an expert on this (no comments please ) but outside of the major private hospitals (Bungrumrad and the like ) which may well be beyond the pockets of many farangs, the doctors offer little other than valium or even stronger sedatives to get drunks over the DT's and not much else in the way of alternative treatment. I have a friend in Bangkok who is a serious alkie, and if anyone knows of any more enlightened treatment, I would be grateful for the info, as he just gets the knock out pills which do little to help him in the long term.

Again I'm not an expert, but a quick google will show a number of AA chapters in Thailand's major cities -Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Pattaya, and maybe others.

I've never been to AA, and from what I've read about them, they don't particularly appeal to me. But I do hate this evangelistic rubbishing, when the AA are clearly are helping a number of alcoholics to stay off the booze. Especially in Thailand, where, I reiterate, there may be little other help available.

I simply cannot accept that they may be doing more harm than good.

Come on Robit... spew your venom.

[robitusson]

Correction: If anything is ceaseless on this forum, it's you plugging the EVILS of the AA.

I recently noticed you are a teacher

That helps to explain everything

Thank God (or a higher being ) that I'm not one of your students.

You might drive me to drink

Or the AA

Great!

I'm plugging facts and statistical evidence about AA, which remain true. If you consider them to be evil, up to you.

Do let me know if you want to discuss the relevant issues instead of personal attacks.

Edited December 1, 2006 by robitusson

[robitusson]

I simply cannot accept that they may be doing more harm than good.

Acceptance is the first step. You must be in denial.

[ding]

I don´t mind a drink. What I personally am trying to achieve is to regain control. Not getting carried away.

Knowing when to say, I´ve had enough.

That´s just me though.

I would still be drinking if I were able to find a way to limit it. I couldn't. And that's how it was for me.

AA works if you work it. It's sad that so many heed the call of the medicine and insist that AA refund their misery. It's a choice that humans who are addicted to alcohol (or whatever) make. It has nothing to do with AA.

Alcoholics have a bad success rate. AA has a very very good success rate. But the drunk has to work the program.

And no, AA is absolutely NOT religious. It states as much all through the literature. It's spiritual only, and suggests that folks leave their religion outside.

Psychologists are often on the wrong side of the desk too.

[ProThaiExpat]

One of the sayings in AA that meant a lot to me was "Go with the winners". Unless you have over twenty years of sobriety behind you, your "creditials" to discuss alcoholism recovery are not very persuasive as one who is giving advice on alcohol addiction, in my view.

Having read most of the opinions in this thread, (we have all heard the one about opionions and <deleted>) what comes to mind is that since we are dealing with individuals, as opposed to groups, lets stick to individuals. Since "groups" don't have alcohol problems as a group, it is the individuals in the group that has the alcohol problem. Thus to compare groups of alcholics recovery rates is like comparing artificial groups of vegatables and fruits and comparing them with other

artificial groups of fruits and vegatables.

Since we now know that everyone has an individual has a DNA and an individuals DNA is almost unique, at least one in multi- millions, how can we rationally consider advice for one person as compared with another, when the individuals are so unalike as far as their genetic make up is conserned. ie. "The Nature". Then when you add another extremely diverse "The Nurture", how extremely unalike are we all. To me ,what works for one person is valid only for that person, unless you find a DNA match for another person and then it may work for that matching DNA person assuming they had identical upbringings.

I submit advice regarding what method is best by comparing statistics not based on valid criteria only weakes further the advice. How does one study measure sobriety, or recovery, by quality, length without a drink, counting the time sober vs. the time drinking, etc, ad naseum.

For those who have succeeded in staying sober for a substantial lenghth of time, good for you regardless of the method used.

For those who have not succeeded so far, keep trying at whatever method works for you.

For those who enjoy this thread, keep on, hopefully you will reach or encourage one alcoholic to sober up and in doing so, this thread will have accomplished something meaningful.

Edited December 4, 2006 by ProThaiExpat

[Mobi]

One of the sayings in AA that meant a lot to me was "Go with the winners". Unless you have over twenty years of sobriety behind you, your "creditials" to discuss alcoholism recovery are not very persuasive as one who is giving advice on alcohol addiction, in my view.

Having read most of the opinions in this thread, (we have all heard the one about opionions and <deleted>) what comes to mind is that since we are dealing with individuals, as opposed to groups, lets stick to individuals. Since "groups" don't have alcohol problems as a group, it is the individuals in the group that has the alcohol problem. Thus to compare groups of alcholics recovery rates is like comparing artificial groups of vegatables and fruits and comparing them with other

artificial groups of fruits and vegatables.

Since we now know that everyone has an individual has a DNA and an individuals DNA is almost unique, at least one in multi- millions, how can we rationally consider advice for one person as compared with another, when the individuals are so unalike as far as their genetic make up is conserned. ie. "The Nature". Then when you add another extremely diverse "The Nurture", how extremely unalike are we all. To me ,what works for one person is valid only for that person, unless you find a DNA match for another person and then it may work for that matching DNA person assuming they had identical upbringings.

I submit advice regarding what method is best by comparing statistics not based on valid criteria only weakes further the advice. How does one study measure sobriety, or recovery, by quality, length without a drink, counting the time sober vs. the time drinking, etc, ad naseum.

For those who have succeeded in staying sober for a substantial lenghth of time, good for you regardless of the method used.

For those who have not succeeded so far, keep trying at whatever method works for you.

For those who enjoy this thread, keep on, hopefully you will reach or encourage one alcoholic to sober up and in doing so, this thread will have accomplished something meaningful.

Excellent post - well done!

I do enjoy reading this thread, but as you well know, I do not enjoy the destructive, negative stuff posted by Robitusson, such as his latest offering:

quote:Acceptance is the first step. You must be in denial. unquote

(when discussing 'acceptance' that the AA does more harm than good).

I fail to see how such comments contribute positively to the spirit of this thread.

[robitusson]

I do enjoy reading this thread, but as you well know, I do not enjoy the destructive, negative stuff posted by Robitusson, such as his latest offering:

quote:Acceptance is the first step. You must be in denial. unquote

(when discussing 'acceptance' that the AA does more harm than good).

I fail to see how such comments contribute positively to the spirit of this thread.

Whereas "spew your venom" and your ignorant ad hominum insults on my choice of job are positive and productive contributions?? Don't fool yourself M D'A.

[Mobi]

I do enjoy reading this thread, but as you well know, I do not enjoy the destructive, negative stuff posted by Robitusson, such as his latest offering:

quote:Acceptance is the first step. You must be in denial. unquote

(when discussing 'acceptance' that the AA does more harm than good).

I fail to see how such comments contribute positively to the spirit of this thread.

Whereas "spew your venom" and your ignorant ad hominum insults on my choice of job are positive and productive contributions?? Don't fool yourself M D'A.

Oo..oo.. I seem to have touched a raw nerve there, my learned Professor R

BTW:

***irrelevant ad hominem post deleted***

[ladda]

Edited December 5, 2006 by ladda

[sabaijai]

I don´t mind a drink. What I personally am trying to achieve is to regain control. Not getting carried away.

Knowing when to say, I´ve had enough.

That´s just me though.

I would still be drinking if I were able to find a way to limit it. I couldn't. And that's how it was for me.

AA works if you work it. It's sad that so many heed the call of the medicine and insist that AA refund their misery. It's a choice that humans who are addicted to alcohol (or whatever) make. It has nothing to do with AA.

Alcoholics have a bad success rate. AA has a very very good success rate. But the drunk has to work the program.

And no, AA is absolutely NOT religious. It states as much all through the literature. It's spiritual only, and suggests that folks leave their religion outside.

Psychologists are often on the wrong side of the desk too.

Typical cult logic, i.e., only the cult knows what's best.

Or only 'real alkies' know:

Dispensing existence

This is Lifton’s term for the phenomenon whereby group insiders are plainly distinguished, made to feel different, and set apart from nonmembers or outsiders. The idea that so-called alcoholics are fundamentally different from the rest of humanity is a mainstay of the Alcoholism Movement, and AA goes to great lengths to ensure that its members accept and retain their special identity. Many of AA’s rituals are aimed at reinforcing that idea. Alexander and Rollins illustrated this with quotations such as: “People not in AA are ‘Normies’”[53] (normal people as opposed to “alcoholics”). According to Clarence Snyder, one of AA’s pioneer members, “alcoholics are different from people.

Because AA's methodology is superior to anything that might be scientific, i.e., beyond any methodology that might otherwise be empirically verifiable:

Sacred science

The sacred science strategem evokes an aura of irrefutable, unquestionable, correctness about the group’s central dogma. AA, for example, holds itself to be in possession of certain knowledge regarding the disposition of alcoholism and the effectiveness of the Steps. Alexander and Rollins documented this by quoting members’ statements such as: “I’ve been following the steps, and the promises about what would happen are true.”

from Is Alcoholics Anonymous A Cult?

Although AA makes the University of Virgnia's New Religious Movements list, there are Christian fundamentalist groups that consider AA to be a 'pseudo-Christian' movement, and one in which the organisation itself as become the 'higher power'.

[ding]

Old timers are great. They let guys like me try to absorb what I could at my own best rate.

They gave me a ton of hope when I first came in.

I absolutely couldn't stop drinking. They had, and their stories were like mine. They had tried all kinds of things to stop too, like I had. This disease had convinced me I should exhaust all other options and absolutely NEVER admit I was alcoholic and hang with those losers in AA.

Eventually I wanted to stop getting worse, wanted all the pain to stop. They had some suggestions. And I was in bad enough pain to swallow my pride and give it a try. It worked. All I had to do was work the program.

These old timers got nothing from me. AA got nothing from me. They didn't cram some religion down my throat and didn't want my money. Nobody had any power, just thankless tasks to keep it all going. The more I understood how self-less it all was, the more I appreciated the 12 traditions.

These old guys had decades of sobriety and were some pretty successful characters, and some from the dumpster too. Still, they needed me. The suffering new guy. I figured they were definitely sick sons of b****es, saying they needed me to stay sober.

Now I get it though. The selfless act of giving it away in order to keep it.

Whatever monkey on your back, you can shake it off - in AA.

[ProThaiExpat]

Well said ding. Your post reminds of those who share their experience, strength and hope with others and in so doing, help themselves and often others.

Those who share their opinions, like so many of the posts in this thread, rarely, if ever, help anyone, since opinions are just that, even when allegedly "backed up" by flawed data.

I would like to hear the actual life experiences of the posters who have opinions regarding any recovery group, as their own sucesses or failures are far more instructive than their opinions.

If a poster believes AA is worthless, lets hear his experience with AA, accurately hopefully and more importantly, if some other group or method worked for him. By doing this, drunks who are having trouble with AA, can try the method that was sucessful for the poster and perhaps be helped in the process.

All the drivel, passed off as reasoned or rational thought never helped anyone get sober, in my experience.

Edited December 6, 2006 by ProThaiExpat

[Jai Dee]

I cannot believe how far this thread has deteriorated.

Instead of slagging off at AA (which seems to have become the preferred target as well as the supporters of this program), why aren't you people offering positive advice and sharing experiences?

Anyone can search for information on the internet for negative views on AA (or any other organisation) and post it here... it ain't rocket science.

What about positives?

Do you want to stop drinking or not?

Do you want to control your drinking or not?

What have you personally done that works?

Share your experiences... and maybe someone will either benefit or contribute in a similar ilk.

This thread is finished. It has deteriorated into an AA slag fest and serves neither the Forum nor its members any good.

/Closed.