NCPO, please kill our subsidy culture: Thai opinion

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I am in 100% agreement with her article. Most people who are not are probably not educated or have invested time in study. Education should be subsidized and free for everyone.

Which part of "get rid of all subsidies" did you miss?

(You may be in agreement with the author, but the author not with you when you state you are in favor of subsidized education.)

The author shows a very typical Bangkokian middle-class mindset of entitlement. Me - me - me and the farmers should remain poor and walk, or take the bus. My money, I can afford it, I got a great education, and NO WAY should there be subsidies to any poor people so their kids can get a similar education to mine! And by the way, only my vote should count, because the poor aren't educated enough to vote.

I almost clicked "Like" on the original post / article as it shows this sentiment so absolutely perfectly. Not The Nation material actually, in terms or parody.

Edited June 10, 2014 by WinnieTheKhwai

[robblok]

I am in 100% agreement with her article. Most people who are not are probably not educated or have invested time in study. Education should be subsidized and free for everyone.

Which part of "get rid of all subsidies" did you miss?

(You may be in agreement with the author, but the author not with you when you state you are in favor of subsidized education.)

The author shows a very typical Bangkokian middle-class mindset of entitlement. Me - me - me and the farmers should remain poor and walk, or take the bus. My money, I can afford it, I got a great education, and NO WAY should there be subsidies to any poor people so their kids can get a similar education to mine! And by the way, only my vote should count, because the poor aren't educated enough to vote.

I almost clicked "Like" on the original post / article as it shows this sentiment so absolutely perfectly. Not The Nation material actually, in terms or parody.

I am in favor of helping people to stand on their own two feet without constant help from the government. So education should be high on the list. Paying farmers short time to innovate or get out of farming and do something else is good too. I am however against constant income subsidies.

I am certainly against the petrol thing, if you want farmers to be excluded give them access to a certain amount of red diesel (diesel at a reduced price with a coloring agent for obvious purpose) But why normal people with diesel cars should be helped and normal people with petrol cars not is crazy.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I am in favor of helping people to stand on their own two feet without constant help from the government. So education should be high on the list. Paying farmers short time to innovate or get out of farming and do something else is good too. I am however against constant income subsidies.

I am certainly against the petrol thing, if you want farmers to be excluded give them access to a certain amount of red diesel (diesel at a reduced price with a coloring agent for obvious purpose) But why normal people with diesel cars should be helped and normal people with petrol cars not is crazy.

Well the origins are in helping out poorer / working class people, as they're far more likely to drive (diesel powered) pick-up trucks, as well as diesel powered farm machines. (Kubota et al)

Pick-up trucks themselves actually are subsidized, as they are in a lower tax rate on purchase and registration.

Both of these things contributed to my family having two pick-up trucks. (The four door model of course gets the same registration tax rate as passenger cars, but it still uses diesel, and the purchase price is taxed less heavily than the nearest petrol powered SUV.)

Anyway, this distinction is getting blurred a little in recent years, when you can buy Mercedes and BMW luxury cars with diesel engines. But only a little, as it's not like Thais flock en-masse to diesel powered vehicles. Compare with France for example where lots of small passenger cars are diesel powered. In Thailand.. very, very few, and not popular. (Ford makes a diesel Focus, or used to anyway. Not very popular.)

[wandasloan]

I am certainly against the petrol thing, if you want farmers to be excluded give them access to a certain amount of red diesel (diesel at a reduced price with a coloring agent for obvious purpose) But why normal people with diesel cars should be helped and normal people with petrol cars not is crazy.

Actually, through decades of trial and error it is entirely well thought out.

1. If you don't subsidise at all, inflation will go crazy. Not a theory, proved.

2. If you try to give diesel only to, say, truckers and fishermen, a black market instantly arises. (There's one now of course, but the two-types of diesel black market is way worse.) Again, this is not a theory, the "coloured diesel" days were fiasco times.

3. If you do what you do know, rich Alpha Hotels whine and chew the carpet about how they have to subsidise diesel for truckers and poor people and housewives. That is so tragic, we feel such anguish for you.

Diesel subsidies are first and foremost for truckers, who carry about 99.99% of food and goods. If trucks suddenly go to 44 baht for diesel, you don't care about YOUR food bill, but trust me that 99% of people will come down on the government/junta that does this in a day. Then, subsidies are for fishermen, then for the middle class, whose pickups are heavily subsidised so they have a chance at getting family transportation. If you don't want a pickup, you don't get the subsidies. Here. For you:

No part of current diesel subsidies is because it helps rich Benz owners, and no part of it is to punish you. Actually, it would be fabulous if you stopped playing the victim. Yes, rich people with diesel Benz autos benefit. Just like rich generals benefit when there's a coup and just like bankers profit when there is a sudden currency glitch and just like you benefit from low internet and mobile phone rates, even though they are certainly not put in place for you.

As they say to the military in America, "Suck it up and salute".

.

[robblok]

I am certainly against the petrol thing, if you want farmers to be excluded give them access to a certain amount of red diesel (diesel at a reduced price with a coloring agent for obvious purpose) But why normal people with diesel cars should be helped and normal people with petrol cars not is crazy.

Actually, through decades of trial and error it is entirely well thought out.

1. If you don't subsidise at all, inflation will go crazy. Not a theory, proved.

2. If you try to give diesel only to, say, truckers and fishermen, a black market instantly arises. (There's one now of course, but the two-types of diesel black market is way worse.) Again, this is not a theory, the "coloured diesel" days were fiasco times.

3. If you do what you do know, rich Alpha Hotels whine and chew the carpet about how they have to subsidise diesel for truckers and poor people and housewives. That is so tragic, we feel such anguish for you.

Diesel subsidies are first and foremost for truckers, who carry about 99.99% of food and goods. If trucks suddenly go to 44 baht for diesel, you don't care about YOUR food bill, but trust me that 99% of people will come down on the government/junta that does this in a day. Then, subsidies are for fishermen, then for the middle class, whose pickups are heavily subsidised so they have a chance at getting family transportation. If you don't want a pickup, you don't get the subsidies. Here. For you:

smallestviolin2.jpg

No part of current diesel subsidies is because it helps rich Benz owners, and no part of it is to punish you. Actually, it would be fabulous if you stopped playing the victim. Yes, rich people with diesel Benz autos benefit. Just like rich generals benefit when there's a coup and just like bankers profit when there is a sudden currency glitch and just like you benefit from low internet and mobile phone rates, even though they are certainly not put in place for you.

As they say to the military in America, "Suck it up and salute".

.

I gave a solution that was tried and tested back in the Netherlands and in the UK.

Red diesel (you as a die hard red supporter must love the irony).

The only problem is here enforcement.. but giving a limited amount of liters to a transport company would work.

[robblok]

I am in favor of helping people to stand on their own two feet without constant help from the government. So education should be high on the list. Paying farmers short time to innovate or get out of farming and do something else is good too. I am however against constant income subsidies.

I am certainly against the petrol thing, if you want farmers to be excluded give them access to a certain amount of red diesel (diesel at a reduced price with a coloring agent for obvious purpose) But why normal people with diesel cars should be helped and normal people with petrol cars not is crazy.

Well the origins are in helping out poorer / working class people, as they're far more likely to drive (diesel powered) pick-up trucks, as well as diesel powered farm machines. (Kubota et al)

Pick-up trucks themselves actually are subsidized, as they are in a lower tax rate on purchase and registration.

Both of these things contributed to my family having two pick-up trucks. (The four door model of course gets the same registration tax rate as passenger cars, but it still uses diesel, and the purchase price is taxed less heavily than the nearest petrol powered SUV.)

Anyway, this distinction is getting blurred a little in recent years, when you can buy Mercedes and BMW luxury cars with diesel engines. But only a little, as it's not like Thais flock en-masse to diesel powered vehicles. Compare with France for example where lots of small passenger cars are diesel powered. In Thailand.. very, very few, and not popular. (Ford makes a diesel Focus, or used to anyway. Not very popular.)

Red diesel.. mentioned it a few times.. but i guess many people never heard of that.

Its diesel with a coloring agent only to be used by farmers transporters ect. There are other ways to ensure that farmers and transporters get cheaper fuels. I am all for this as there is some sense to it. I am not for subsidizing everyone one and the his sos on diesel.

[orosee]

Author is a typical BKK Yellow shirt. How dare a farmer overtake ME in his pick up truck. Unbeknown to him, there is life and a country outside of BKK.

This.

Author requests abandoning ALL subsidies. Doesn't support argument with a careful analysis of current and future effects on economy and society, gives instead an anecdote of being overtaken by a pickup truck. PhD level market economics Thai style.

(Not sure if correct, but I believe there is a better tax bracket for pickup trucks which makes them more affordable than Diesel cars - I don't think Thais can look that far into the future to calculate fuel savings over say 10 years, but they do know how to compare a sticker price).

[Stan7444]

In regards to government subsidies, Thailand is like a new born child. Look at many other countries, like my own the US, if you want to see subsidies gone wild, which many US citizens are not even aware their taxes go into so many subsidies. Look at these websites for a view into subsidies:

Top 10 most ridiculous ones: http://www.askmen.com/top_10/entertainment/185_top_10_list.html

Just the US farm subsidies which Total USDA Subsidies from farms in United States totaled $292,548,000,000 in from 1995-2012. http://farm.ewg.org/top_recips.php?fips=00000&progcode=total

Some farm subsidies are even used to pay farmers NOT to grow crops to artificially keep prices high. These act like an incentive apparently. Wish I could find a subsidy to pay me not to get out of bed every day to work like these farmers. And some people wonder why the US is in so much debt at this time.

Bottom line is it might be impossible to have a functioning country without some forms of subsidies and Obamacare is just one more.

[billd766]

While I agree wholeheartedly with the premise (remove market-distorting subsidies), I find the arguments used very telling about both the writer and the 'Nation'. The figures for diesel subsidy are for the entire country but the suggested alternative use for funds is BKK-only. Typical of a certain way of thinking - why waste money on rural people that could be better spent on 'proper' Thais in BKK. Better to remove all subsidies on fuel and agriculture and use the savings for properly-directed welfare transfers for the poorest and for better medical.

I agree with you 100%. We have a good bus service from the big village to BKK 400 km away but the bus to Khampaeng Phet 65 km away is a baht bus. If you live outside of the main village there is no bus service.

There are no nearby LPG stations either closer than 50 km away.

The nearest railway station is 125 km away in Nakhon Sawan, the next nearest is either Pichet or Phitsanulok 180 km away. There are NO direct busses to either place.

How do the village kids get to school? Either by coverted diesel pickups or motorbike.

How does ANYTHING get delivered in rural Thailand from stuff for the local shops or 7/11s, mail for the post office, food, beer, whiskey, ice etc, LPG for cooking, food for the local markets? By diesel trucks.

How is food grown? With water supplied by diesel pumps, harvested by diesel vehicles and transported to the middle men by Etans, Kubota tok toks and diesel powered tractors. It is taken from the millers in 20 wheel diesel powered trucks and trailers to the next up the line. If it gets exported it is carried to the docks in diesel powered trucks.

Whilst Achara Debonne is quite good at her job she seems to forget that Bangkok is NOT the whole of Thailand but only a small part of it.

If the subsidy on diesel is removed the cost of EVERYTHING moved by in Thailand will rise and so will the cost of living and quite dramatically. It may not cost her a lot more but for the majority of Thais it will be a heavy burden to carry and they may not be able to afford to do it.

[thumper101]

Right now, the junta is being seen as the solution to everything. But in the real world it is difficult to govern any country regardless of the flavour of its local politics. Do you see where this might go? Inevitably there will be failures and then there is the possibility of a backlash as a result of the unrealistic expectations of a population who see the junta as a breath of fresh air who can solve all of Thailand's problems. Given the sensitivity of the military and their reaction to and restriction of freedoms to what has hitherto been minor resistance to its authority, how is it likely to play out if dissatisfaction from the junta's failures becomes more vocal.

Nothing theoretical there. We know the answer to your trailing question. What has always played out so far is bloodbath. Seems that's quite a good bet for late 2014, early 2015 again. It has happened so often that is is actually pretty predictable. It's because the military, any military, only has one solution to EVERY problem it faces. There is nothing Thais about this fact, but it has been seen so often in Thailand because the military actually thinks, for reasons I cannot fathom, that it can run a country. It's the reason the military does NOT seize power in almost any other country.

But the army can do no such thing. It can subdue dissent, those who point out its flaws or argue with its policies. But of course it can only do that for so long.

The Royal Thai Army, even in the very few times it has set up a pseudo-civilian government, cannot bring itself to cede actual political power to even its own appointees. So the only way it can deal with disagreeing and/or disagreeable people, is to kill them. Which it has done over and over and over again, and you'd be foolish to bet against them not doing it again, especially since almost no one agrees with any of its stated policies so far, such as keeping Yingluck's train and anti-flood projects - and doesn't agree that six old men direct it all.

The one thing the Thai army has done for 41 years and probably will again is to unite about 95% of the country against it. Then comes the killing. Then comes the whole "back to square one" again.

Sad, really.

.

What the hell are you rambling on about?

So you are saying that there will be an uprising against them followed by mass slaughter and that it ALWAYS happens????

Man, you are seriously off the rails on this issue.

[billd766]

"Just think of the better air quality that would come from getting more people off the road and onto convenient public transport"

In Thailand there is no such thing as convenient public transport.

Really? Never used the BTS or the likes of Nakhonchai Air Coaches? I'd say they're very convenient myself.

You're right. The exception to the rule.

Plus MRT

& Bus 389 Between Suvarnabhumi Airport to Pattaya & Jomtien

Good if you live in a big city but there are not many of them in Thailand. Most of it is rural.

[Chris Lawrence]

This reporter sounds like a real <deleted>.

In another article she wrote "How Thais got into this polarised storm is almost beyond imagination." Well if she can't work it out, what got her the job? Just to turn a phrase and supply some figures don't make a jurno. You need to interpret this information, because if you don't the reader will.

If the young girl went to University to become a reporter, who built the university? Probably one of those speeding farmers at 300-400 baht a day.

I liked what Billsmart said "subsides are all necessary to redistribute wealth to counter the inevitable concentration of wealth among a few, and to focus public resources on social goals".

I wonder if this young girl would have the courage to look at the Armed services and the strangle hold they have on directorships of Thai companies while they sit and vote on the economy.

Looking at PTT this morning I could only get their 2008 annual report/directors/managemen/profit/loss. Is this what she meant about getting information from Thai companies? For a public company to have lack of current information on their web site shows contempt to the market place.

I am in 100% agreement with her article. Most people who are not are probably not educated or have invested time in study. Education should be subsidized and free for everyone. After you educated yourself your on your own, you got a basis to succeed at that point.

Why should others then keep paying for your inability to succeed or make a living. If others do better as you so be it. There is nothing wrong with others who are smarter and better making more money. If everyone gets the same no matter what they contribute innovation would never be there. Why innovate or study if in the end your wealth will be redistributed. Why even put effort in your work if it does not matter.. for that matter why work at all.. Others can do that and you can get the money.

My son is Downs Syndrome and high functioning. Recently he had a fall and broke his back. We need to be able to offer a social saftey net to all people.

Up until I was 30 I worked in real estate and in my last year earned in the top 10% of people in Oz. But I wasn't seeing my family. I wanted to put more into my sons welfare. I got a job in disabilities earning about $10. ph. I decided I wanted to go back and study. I was fortunate to get in under scheme that I didn't have to pay too much. I passed at a credit level, ended up working in Drug and Alcohol. when I left studies I went into disabilities but found it very political and a throw back to the blue rinse brigade.

I have help set up a service that is now achieving income of over $1 millon a year. When I started in that service it was achieving $110,000 per year. On leaving studies I also set up a position in public health where the person who took over recieved an Order of Australia Medal. The position was the first dedicated Hepatitis C welfare postion in NSW Health. I also advocated for shooting galleries for IV users in NSW, not because that was a good idea, but because they saved lives and also gave the opportunity to get people clean.

Some social welfare programs actually save the economy money.

Some times you need to say to someone, come here now look at it from this side and see how different things are. Or, but there for the grace of God go I.

Lifes choices are different for all.

If I stayed working in Real Estate I probably would have a lot more money. The work I have done over the last 20 years has feed my soul, and put food on the table.

You see our tax money pays for social reform. At 28 and paying $30,000 in tax I was annoyed, but I know my 30 year old son is now being taken care of. I am in my mid 50's and haven't worked for 6 years due to a chronic illness. I am not on a pension or welfare payments. But its there if I need it.

For 20 years I worked in welfare. Do people need help Rob, my experience and education says yes.

I would suggest to the reporter in the story to spend some time with people that need help. There is a HIV service in Pattaya that I would suggest; there she could hold a childs hand. I am sure the child would get a lot out of someone holding their hand.

[smedly]

Subsidies,Populist policies were a ploy by previous Governments

to use public monies to buy votes,and the sooner its stamped out

the better it will be for Thailand.

I just hope the army stays in power long enough,to root out all

corruption,bring the guilty parties to book,with real punishment

been dealt out,as long prison terms,NO suspended sentences,

and maybe Thailand can turn its self around.

regards Worgeordie

Concerning the rice scheme I agree, it was nothing more than a vote buying ploy at any cost - Thaksin had to win the election and it didn't matter how or the disaster that would follow

But Subsidies are a necessary as a way of balancing out international trade variance but it must be very tightly controlled and managed.

Lets Exclude the rice scheme for a moment as we all know what it was.

Probably the biggest problem with a subsidy is that it discourages innovation and development, if producers know they are going to be bailed out no matter what they will never try to improve, it needs careful management and incentives built in to encourage improvement.

Not that long ago the UK was a heavily subsidised economy, you had high income tax rates that were used to heavily subsidise highly inefficient industries that were stagnant with no incentive to improve, you had powerful unions that continued to hold the country to ransume through strikes and stoppages all sponsored by the labour government, coal mines didn't make profits yet they continued to strike and push for higher and higher pay - same with the power industry and the docklands.

I remember a guy telling me that his factory worked massive overtime at weekends paying double time and only a quarter of the people were actually working, the rest were clocked in and getting paid - the company didn't care because if they lost money the government would make it up in subsidies, there was no incentive for improvement - the whole thing was false and unsustainable especially with the competition from countries like Japan gaining ground with their streamlined automated factories - efficiency and quality

What happened was then was Margaret Thatcher and the conservatives - they put a stop to the industrial and work ethic madness by forcing industry to streamline or close gradually evolving away the subsidy and strike culture - make money of close was the message - the coal miners had shit in their own nest through years of strikes and huge pay rises - once the subsidies stopped so did the mining industry

It was something that had to happen of that there is no doubt, I would go as far as calling the second industrial revolution

So back to Thailand, industry here must be encouraged to improve not just sit back and get handouts, education - training and incentives to encourage change, large industrials are not such a problem as they are mostly owned by foreign countries and are already streamlined only influenced by things such as salaries/production costs - corporation tax etc - the efficiency is already there.

They simply cannot rely on handouts

[wprime]

"Just think of the better air quality that would come from getting more people off the road and onto convenient public transport"

In Thailand there is no such thing as convenient public transport.

Really? Never used the BTS or the likes of Nakhonchai Air Coaches? I'd say they're very convenient myself.

Standing in a crowded BTS carriage hardly compares to sitting in the luxury and privacy of my car as I roll down Sukhimvit for an hour or two.

[Thai at Heart]

Why? So the rich can get richer? Subsidies is the cornerstone in any functioning society. The society should help when you get old. When you get sick. When you get stricken by Mother Nature. To make sure farmers can produce too much food, and not just enough food when the harvest is good.

Or is the future thailand where you can pile money in the bank, build a big house and laugh when your neighbours house get burned down, because hey, it didnt happen to me. If you look farther then your own nose you see where that Thailand is heading.

So to be part of the greater community called Thailand you pay taxes so Thailand can care for everyone.

Problem with rice is 30% of the production is for export. Why one earth subsidise something that is loss making in order for the country to sell it.

I would understand if thailand was at break even, but patently chasing this subsidy to export at a loss is nonsense. Of course CP wouldn't like that deal but that's life.

[Chris Lawrence]

I am in favor of helping people to stand on their own two feet without constant help from the government. So education should be high on the list. Paying farmers short time to innovate or get out of farming and do something else is good too. I am however against constant income subsidies.

I am certainly against the petrol thing, if you want farmers to be excluded give them access to a certain amount of red diesel (diesel at a reduced price with a coloring agent for obvious purpose) But why normal people with diesel cars should be helped and normal people with petrol cars not is crazy.

Well the origins are in helping out poorer / working class people, as they're far more likely to drive (diesel powered) pick-up trucks, as well as diesel powered farm machines. (Kubota et al)

Pick-up trucks themselves actually are subsidized, as they are in a lower tax rate on purchase and registration.

Both of these things contributed to my family having two pick-up trucks. (The four door model of course gets the same registration tax rate as passenger cars, but it still uses diesel, and the purchase price is taxed less heavily than the nearest petrol powered SUV.)

Anyway, this distinction is getting blurred a little in recent years, when you can buy Mercedes and BMW luxury cars with diesel engines. But only a little, as it's not like Thais flock en-masse to diesel powered vehicles. Compare with France for example where lots of small passenger cars are diesel powered. In Thailand.. very, very few, and not popular. (Ford makes a diesel Focus, or used to anyway. Not very popular.)

Winnie, Thais don't like small cars. The buses hit them and usually kill the occupants. They think they have a better chance in a bigger car.

Wife wouldn't look at a small car here or in Thailand. Had to buy Freestyle cab in Thailand, also paid less rego/insurance as it was considered a two door.

But that was the reason for a larger vechile.

[lomatopo]

This reporter sounds like a real <deleted>.

It's an Op-ed piece (hint: opinion), not factual reporting.

In other news, NCPO in a very, very, very Un/Non-populist action:

Thailand's Commerce Ministry says it will freeze the prices of many consumer goods for the next six months to hold down living costs and boost the economy.

The items include beverages, rice, palm oil, instant foods, dairy products, household products, animal feed and fertiliser.

Srirat Rastapana, the ministry's permanent secretary and acting minister since the coup, says companies and trade associations will comply.

"Producers of 205 categories of necessary consumer goods are happy to freeze prices for six months," he said.

Yeah, "happy".

Edited June 10, 2014 by lomatopo

[citizen33]

The authentic voice of the Bangkok mittelstand - this in part was what recent events were about,

[rijb]

Maybe with no subsidies they won't need to tax imported wine / whiskey so much!

[metisdead]

A post in which the reply was made inside the quoted post has been removed as well as a reply.

[GarryP]

I just wonder - not really - who benefits from the rice subsidies. Of the number of farmers I know, they are growing rice to feed their families and not selling rice to the millers. So at the bottom end of the scale, the farmers who really do need some assistance, are not benefiting. You then have the "middle" farmer who produces for the family and also for sale and then the larger scale farmer who is usually a large scale landowner who is producing vast amounts of rice. So who really benefits from the subsidies, the very people with the wherewithall to adopt better farming practices such that they can reduce costs and not need subisdies in the first place. They have no incentive to improve grain strains, techniques, etc. as long as they can get subsidies.

Edited June 10, 2014 by GarryP

[Artist]

I think the average farmer never considers the running cost when buying a vehicle. In my experience Thai village people just don't think that way. They need a pickup which will carry, rice, fertiliser, building materials and most importantly 20 people when required. A car is fine for somebody in a city but useless for Thai farmers.

[wandasloan]

So you are saying that there will be an uprising against them followed by mass slaughter and that it ALWAYS happens????

Pretty much, yep.

Man, you are seriously off the rails on this issue.

Well, we'll see, won't we? The thing is, I'm only better that the same thing that always has happened will happen again.

Listen, do me a favour if you want. If the army has intervened successfully 11 up until April. If it's so great at setting things on a clean, pristine democratic road, why did it do it the previous 10 times and now again this time? That is, what has the army EVER achieved with a coup that was positive for the country.

And yes, the army pretty well always has a coup, fails eventually to stifle dissent, faces an uprising, kills many people in the uprising and then backs off by proclaiming victory. What victory? Hundreds and hundreds of Thais dead at military hands, in the past 41 years alone. What has Thailand gained from all this bloodshed, and why do you think something different will happen this time?

.

[smedly]

So you are saying that there will be an uprising against them followed by mass slaughter and that it ALWAYS happens????

Pretty much, yep.

Man, you are seriously off the rails on this issue.

Well, we'll see, won't we? The thing is, I'm only better that the same thing that always has happened will happen again.

Listen, do me a favour if you want. If the army has intervened successfully 11 up until April. If it's so great at setting things on a clean, pristine democratic road, why did it do it the previous 10 times and now again this time? That is, what has the army EVER achieved with a coup that was positive for the country.

And yes, the army pretty well always has a coup, fails eventually to stifle dissent, faces an uprising, kills many people in the uprising and then backs off by proclaiming victory. What victory? Hundreds and hundreds of Thais dead at military hands, in the past 41 years alone. What has Thailand gained from all this bloodshed, and why do you think something different will happen this time?

.

Tell you what, since you seem to think you know what you are talking about I'd be interested in an answer to the following

(Referring to Political landscape)

1. Who in your opinion are the top 5 people/groups that have gained in Thailand over the last 11 years Financially

2. Same question except who has lost the most

3. Did the country benefit from the Rice Scheme

4. Did the Farmers benefit from the rice scheme

5. Should the military have stepped in. yes/no

6. Was Democracy working in Thailand yes/no

[diehard60]

There is no onvienent transportaion in the north and northeast. That is why many now have their own vehicels.

[khunken]

So you are saying that there will be an uprising against them followed by mass slaughter and that it ALWAYS happens????

Pretty much, yep.

Man, you are seriously off the rails on this issue.

Well, we'll see, won't we? The thing is, I'm only better that the same thing that always has happened will happen again.

Listen, do me a favour if you want. If the army has intervened successfully 11 up until April. If it's so great at setting things on a clean, pristine democratic road, why did it do it the previous 10 times and now again this time? That is, what has the army EVER achieved with a coup that was positive for the country.

And yes, the army pretty well always has a coup, fails eventually to stifle dissent, faces an uprising, kills many people in the uprising and then backs off by proclaiming victory. What victory? Hundreds and hundreds of Thais dead at military hands, in the past 41 years alone. What has Thailand gained from all this bloodshed, and why do you think something different will happen this time?

.

No matter whether if it's the subsidies, dredging a klong, or any topic, it always comes down to the bad 'ol army, doesn't it Wanda?

A little more on off-topic items. The last coup was bloodless and this one has also been bloodless so far. Up to the 1991/2 coup there were killings during the takeovers. Yes hundreds were killed but the police killed thousands during Thaksin's 'war on drugs' so they are the 'champion' killers in recent years.

One also needs to ask oneself why there have been so many coups. Could it have been because of incompetent, self-serving governments, that were wrecking the economy and people's lives?

Whether this is different to (say) 1992 or 2006 is unknown and continuing to crystal ball forecast that it's the same again has just as much validity that Brazil are going to win the World Cup just because they did it before.

Now to the topic. I agree with those who have panned this OP as Bangkok centric and patronising. Subsidies are not all bad. The recent rice subsidy was a very bad example of how not to do it. Rice farmers do need assistance but there must be a limit to how much is subsidised (exclude what is exported) and the third crop is somewhere to start.

Other subsidies such as the diesel one are more than justified and keeps transport costs for companies, farmers, and Songkran travellers down.

[billd766]

So you are saying that there will be an uprising against them followed by mass slaughter and that it ALWAYS happens????

Pretty much, yep.

Man, you are seriously off the rails on this issue.

Well, we'll see, won't we? The thing is, I'm only better that the same thing that always has happened will happen again.

Listen, do me a favour if you want. If the army has intervened successfully 11 up until April. If it's so great at setting things on a clean, pristine democratic road, why did it do it the previous 10 times and now again this time? That is, what has the army EVER achieved with a coup that was positive for the country.

And yes, the army pretty well always has a coup, fails eventually to stifle dissent, faces an uprising, kills many people in the uprising and then backs off by proclaiming victory. What victory? Hundreds and hundreds of Thais dead at military hands, in the past 41 years alone. What has Thailand gained from all this bloodshed, and why do you think something different will happen this time?

.

Just to pique my curiousity can you tell me how many Thais were, in your words, "slaughtered" after the coup in 2006, where and when was the uprising against them?

I am a bit confused as I have lived here in Thailand on and off since 1993 and I must have missed the last uprising and slaughter in 2006/7.

[Chris Lawrence]

This reporter sounds like a real <deleted>.

It's an Op-ed piece (hint: opinion), not factual reporting.

In other news, NCPO in a very, very, very Un/Non-populist action:

Thailand's Commerce Ministry says it will freeze the prices of many consumer goods for the next six months to hold down living costs and boost the economy.

The items include beverages, rice, palm oil, instant foods, dairy products, household products, animal feed and fertiliser.

Srirat Rastapana, the ministry's permanent secretary and acting minister since the coup, says companies and trade associations will comply.

"Producers of 205 categories of necessary consumer goods are happy to freeze prices for six months," he said.

Yeah, "happy".

You will say anything with a gun to your head

[stoli]

I admit that I have not done my homework yet on Achara Deboonme, the writer on this article. He/She appears to be writing from an environmentalist position, rather than as an economist on how subsidies are used in all advanced nations of the world to support any industries that the public needs to survive. We must insure the success in our farmers. We do not need to institute programs, without funding, expecting to change the world price, but we do need to keep farmers profitable or they will find other work out of necessity. Do you want to grow your own food just for survival?

[wandasloan]

So you are saying that there will be an uprising against them followed by mass slaughter and that it ALWAYS happens????

Pretty much, yep.

Man, you are seriously off the rails on this issue.

Well, we'll see, won't we? The thing is, I'm only better that the same thing that always has happened will happen again.

Listen, do me a favour if you want. If the army has intervened successfully 11 up until April. If it's so great at setting things on a clean, pristine democratic road, why did it do it the previous 10 times and now again this time? That is, what has the army EVER achieved with a coup that was positive for the country.

And yes, the army pretty well always has a coup, fails eventually to stifle dissent, faces an uprising, kills many people in the uprising and then backs off by proclaiming victory. What victory? Hundreds and hundreds of Thais dead at military hands, in the past 41 years alone. What has Thailand gained from all this bloodshed, and why do you think something different will happen this time?

.

Just to pique my curiousity can you tell me how many Thais were, in your words, "slaughtered" after the coup in 2006, where and when was the uprising against them?

I am a bit confused as I have lived here in Thailand on and off since 1993 and I must have missed the last uprising and slaughter in 2006/7.

Where did you get the word "slaughtered"? I know what you claim. Either you are hugely mistaken or... something else. Do tell.

For your convenience I put in the conversation you might be referring to. I look forward to your satisfying MY curiosity about how you transferred that word to me.

If you do not think the uprising of 2010 was a direct outgrowth of the 2006 coup and the 2008 military interference in intimidating Newin into forming a Democrat-led government, then you don't. Everyone is entitled to any opinion he can think up, and there is no official limit on craziness of opinions. I have no idea how you back up that crazy opinion, but if you'd care to try, I'd be rapt. How do YOU think a red shirt uprising began in 2010?

Nevertheless, whatever the direct cause, as it usually does, the army killed way, way too many people at the end of that 2005-2010 period.

The thing is, that's what armies do, everywhere, because armies have no other training, ability or desire than to deal with "a situation" by overwhelming, deadly force. My family has an army background and some in other branches. My son serves in an army today. I think an army that protects the borders against foreign invaders is an entity worthy of very, very much respect and admiration. An army, pretty well every army worldwide, has one single, solitary, lone, unique job. In the words of US FM 3-21.8, an army exists and performs to Find, Fix, Finish and Follow-through.

You won't find "slaughter" in that FM. The very idea that armies "slaughter" people says quite a lot about you. And then actually attributing it to me says more. And of course it says a lot about thumper101 but that poster always says a lot about himself.

The Royal Thai Army KILLS. It's the assigned mission. It is what all soldiers without exception train for. And if you don't follow RTA orders, well, then.... you know. The RTA is not a government, not a police force, not a civil service.

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