Visa report: Tourist/Non-o visa in Essen, Germany

[Saradoc1972]

Just a little report how I fared today trying the Thai Honorary Consulate in Essen for a triple entry tourist visa.

I went there because my travel agency had suggested, I should get the visa before they would book the flight for me. Let's say they were altogether uninformed about Thailand visa procedures apart from booking a visa-exempt short trip, got terribly confused when their booking system only offered "90 day visas" (which of course refers to the validity of single entry tourist visa until entry, not length of stay). So I wisely decided to take matters in my own hands not to get sucked for 100 Euro or more fees on top of the visa.

The consulate is located in a nice modern lively pedestrian precinct in Essen, got free parking some 30m down the road, on that Friday afternoon it was staffed with a friendly middle aged German bloke. He was a bit full of himself for his expertise on visa affairs, a bit patronizing perhaps, but altogether helpful.

First thing he told me was to whack the travel agency guys round the head for their advice, I normally should have booked the flight beforehand. I had been a bit unsure about this, as the consulate's website is not really helpful and the form required the flight details "for TR visa only", so I assumed "TR" meant Transit visa (but those are "TS").

Anyway, he suggested I could still get my visa - until I started waving my translated pension slip for Thai Immigration I had presented to the German embassy to Bangkok via a translation bureau. He now suggested I apply for a 1-year multiple entry Non-O visa instead. I wouldn't get the "pensioner Non-O" because I'm only 42, but the difference would only be residency (so I have to quit the country every 90 days). He told me the standing record for the procedure was 3 minutes.

Well, this suits me even better, so I shoved 140 Euro across the counter and an envelope with 3,60 Euro in stamps, with regard to the latter he told me that's not how they worked and to wait for half an hour or take a dander and come back later.

So I got myself some spaghetti alle vongole and a double expressso in a nice posh Italian diner down the street, and collected my ready passport and visa afterwards, chap telling me "gut, dass wir drüber geredet haben" (good thing we talked things over), see you next year.

All in all I am totally happy with those folks in Essen, they inspired pure feelings of joy-joy in me.

[Saradoc1972]

oh, and one other little tip the guy told me, I just forgot...

He said I should present my passport at airport immigration with the page the visa is on first, not the machine-readable portion with the photo.

That would set the officer on the right track right away so there would be no mistakes with the entry stamp that could mean getting only to 30 days for purportedly visa-exempt entry.

[TerryLH]

What visa did you go there intending to apply for?

It's also unclear how you were eligible for a multiple entry Non O. Are you married to a Thai?

[Carib]

Not sure if I understand this correctly, but if they gave you a Non-O what was it based upon?

Do you have a Thai wife or are you the father of a Thai child? It cannot be based upon retirement,

you are too young for that.

So frankly I absolutely don't understand how this guy could have given you a Non-O. Are you sure thatis what you have got?

[Saradoc1972]

I am 42-y-o, German citizenship only, not married, I have no children Thai or not. (Any girls out here? )

I am retired on a pension that would satisfy the income requirement of 800.000 Baht for a "retirement visa". (Girls???)

It's not exactly a state-pension (what elderly or disabled get by German social law), it's not exactly from an insurance, it's something in between.

I get it from a semi-public institution for lawyers on grounds of inability to continue working as one, at least on a daily basis.

It is a proper visa, fills one side of my passport. It's white and blue with a hologram, a red man-eagle coat-of-arms, a red round stamp, a signature, all the jingles and bells.

Type of visa reads: "Non-Immigrant". Category: "O" (and nothing else). No. of Entry: "M". Fee: "140 Euro". No remarks, a 8 digit number starting with B, my name and correct date of birth.

As I said, I went there with the from filled in as an application for a triple-entry tourist visa, and the nice guy changed a good couple of my entries in front of me and got me a 1-y Non-O instead.

He told me: "a pensioner is a pensioner is a pensioner" and so I could get this, but I could not get residency like under a real "pensioner visa" (i.e. Non-Imm O-A), so I'd have to do border-runs every 90 days.

[Soutpeel]

I am 42-y-o, German citizenship only, not married, I have no children Thai or not. (Any girls out here? )

I am retired on a pension that would satisfy the income requirement of 800.000 Baht for a "retirement visa". (Girls???)

It's not exactly a state-pension (what elderly or disabled get by German social law), it's not exactly from an insurance, it's something in between.

I get it from a semi-public institution for lawyers on grounds of inability to continue working as one, at least on a daily basis.

It is a proper visa, fills one side of my passport. It's white and blue with a hologram, a red man-eagle coat-of-arms, a red round stamp, a signature, all the jingles and bells.

Type of visa reads: "Non-Immigrant". Category: "O" (and nothing else). No. of Entry: "M". Fee: "140 Euro". No remarks, a 8 digit number starting with B, my name and correct date of birth.

As I said, I went there with the from filled in as an application for a triple-entry tourist visa, and the nice guy changed a good couple of my entries in front of me and got me a 1-y Non-O instead.

He told me: "a pensioner is a pensioner is a pensioner" and so I could get this, but I could not get residency like under a real "pensioner visa" (i.e. Non-Imm O-A), so I'd have to do border-runs every 90 days.

You can't have a "retirement " visa your not old enough, you need to be 50

[Carib]

A pensioner is not a pensioner in Thailand if he has not reached the age of 50 !
You don't qualify for a non-o visa, you may get away with it but....

Edit: just saw that soutpeel beat me to it.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Carib

[Saradoc1972]

You can't have a "retirement " visa your not old enough, you need to be 50

Yes, I absolutely, positively, know that for a fact. I did actually point this out to the chap at the consulate.

I don't feel "I got away with s.th." since each and every relevant fact was plain on the table, and I got offered the 1-y visa without having asked for it. That embassy-certified pension was only to avoid any questions as to my means when applying for that tourist visa.

Good thing I had it, see my former forum post "Financial statement helpful in getting a tourist visa?"

And for a fact I DID NOT get a "retirement visa", that is type Non-Imm "O-A", what I got is Non-Imm "O". Let's be precise here, both are quite different.

I apparently got a 1-y visa other than a "retirement visa" based on the fact that I am on a live-long pension and get a monthly annuity amounting to more that 800.000 Baht a year, if that exact number even was a factor. He did not even want to see my bank statement and the couple k € on it.

[Soutpeel]

You can't have a "retirement " visa your not old enough, you need to be 50

Yes, I absolutely, positively, know that for a fact. I did actually point this out to the chap at the consulate.

I don't feel "I got away with s.th." since each and every relevant fact was plain on the table, and I got offered the 1-y visa without having asked for it. That embassy-certified pension was only to avoid any questions as to my means when applying for that tourist visa.

Good thing I had it, see my former forum post "Financial statement helpful in getting a tourist visa?"

And for a fact I DID NOT get a "retirement visa", that is type Non-Imm "O-A", what I got is Non-Imm "O". Let's be precise here, both are quite different.

I apparently got a 1-y visa other than a "retirement visa" based on the fact that I am on a live-long pension and get a monthly annuity amounting to more that 800.000 Baht a year, if that exact number even was a factor. He did not even want to see my bank statement and the couple k € on it.

The 800k is for the "retirement " visa it would absolutely no bearing on the visa you got because you dont qualify for an O-A or a non O (retirement extension) in the first instance

[Carib]

O-A is the visa where everything has been taken care of outside of Thailand so upon entering you will have a permission to stay based upon retirement. (over 50)

No need to leave the country every 90 days, just 90 days reporting and a yearly extension at immigration.

A Non-O visa is a precursor to whatever base it has been issued upon, like retirement, being married to a Thai national , or fathering children and a few reasons more.

One will have to take care of obtaining the right permission to stay inside Thailand. For retirement one of the requirements is that you have to be over 50.

You will never be able to get an extension of stay for retirement if you are not 50 years of age to start with, and the "knowledgeable gentlemen" at the consulate who lectured you about visa`s has made a big mistake.

Like I said, you may get away with it upon entering the kingdom, and maybe they will fall for it again after you will reenter again and again and again because of the 90 days rule, but you will never be able to extend your stay in the kingdom based upon the Non-o which has been given to you, you simply do not qualify and are just a tourist.

[Saradoc1972]

The 800k is for the "retirement " visa it would absolutely no bearing on the visa you got because you dont qualify for an O-A or a non O (retirement extension) in the first instance

That's exactly what I was saying.

I got the strongest of feelings, however, that they apply the 800k threshhold to the "non-retirement" "O" visa I got just as well. Would be the logical thing to do.

Chap told me, the reasoning of the people actually stamping the visa up the stairs from where he was sitting was "he got reliable income and money to spend in Thailand?" as well as "he look like trouble?".

For the latter point I had my 2 law degrees translated to Thai, for possibly picking up work as an English teacher, as well as a precaution when going for follow-up visa of any kind. Those will be in the folder I present to immigration in Thailand and conveniently located so they have to leave through them before arriving at the pension letter. Being Tanai Kwam might not help me, but it sure as hell won't hurt.

Chap was not the scholarly type and gave himself airs for having superior knowledge about visa procedures than his usual clientele, but he sure as hell got enough practical knowledge from years of doing nothing else over the day.

Key point in practicing law, which I did for nearly a decade, is: what is the reasoning behind the applicable statutes, and what is the reasoning of the people applying them in administration? That is what you argue about and possibly get people to do something for you or your client without going to court.

In first-world countries statutes will obviously have a major impact on the reasoning of the administration, more than in Thailand, where apparently "discretion" of the people entrusted with an office rules.

Key-point is: have your paperwork together. Can never hurt.

[Saradoc1972]

O-A is the visa where everything has been taken care of outside of Thailand so upon entering you will have a permission to stay based upon retirement. (over 50)

No need to leave the country every 90 days, just 90 days reporting and a yearly extension at immigration.

[snip]

Yes, you got everything right. That's what our knowledgeable chap told me, that is what I know for myself.

I will not get extensions, I will not have to register every 90 days (that is taken care of by border-runs) for lack of residency, I will not have to get re-entry permits as my "O" visa will be good for an unlimited number of entries within validity of both the visa and my passport (minus 6 month).

Upon expiry of this first "O" visa of hopefully 8 or nine in a row, I will have to leave the country and reapply at some Thai embassy or consulate and hope they see it the same way as the folks in Essen. Or possibly fly home in suitable intervals to do things in Essen, seems to work.

Unless I go for an ED-Visa or start working with the proper Business visa.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Saradoc1972

[Carib]

The 800k is for the "retirement " visa it would absolutely no bearing on the visa you got because you dont qualify for an O-A or a non O (retirement extension) in the first instance

That's exactly what I was saying.

I got the strongest of feelings, however, that they apply the 800k threshhold to the "non-retirement" "O" visa I got just as well. Would be the logical thing to do.

Chap told me, the reasoning of the people actually stamping the visa up the stairs from where he was sitting was "he got reliable income and money to spend in Thailand?" as well as "he look like trouble?".

For the latter point I had my 2 law degrees translated to Thai, for possibly picking up work as an English teacher, as well as a precaution when going for follow-up visa of any kind. Those will be in the folder I present to immigration in Thailand and conveniently located so they have to leave through them before arriving at the pension letter. Being Tanai Kwam might not help me, but it sure as hell won't hurt.

Chap was not the scholarly type and gave himself airs for having superior knowledge about visa procedures than his usual clientele, but he sure as hell got enough practical knowledge from years of doing nothing else over the day.

Key point in practicing law, which I did for nearly a decade, is: what is the reasoning behind the applicable statutes, and what is the reasoning of the people applying them in administration? That is what you argue about and possibly get people to do something for you or your client without going to court.

In first-world countries statutes will obviously have a major impact on the reasoning of the administration, more than in Thailand, where apparently "discretion" of the people entrusted with an office rules.

Key-point is: have your paperwork together. Can never hurt.

You can present whatever documentation to immigration in Thailand, but I can assure you that it is not going to help a single bit, you just do not qualify for a non -o visa. You could even end up with a 30 days visa exempt stamp if they were to look into the reason why you have been given the non-o.

Just be aware of the fact that you have a visa which is based upon `no valid reason`.

It doesn't give me pleasure to say all this by the way, look upon it as a warning that you cannot really be sure of this visa or admittance to the kingdom. You are a tourist, and tourists do not qualify for a non-o.

You have not met any of the qualifications for this type of visa, not married to a Thai, not fathering your Thai children, and you are not retired in the eyes of the Thai immigration officers since you are not over 50. That is all what matters to them, the fact that you are educated, have enough money to spend or whatever is not going to be of any help whatsoever.

[Saradoc1972]

Point noted. I'll put this through to ThaiVisa's "Ask The Colleague" feature and report back here.

[KED]

I am not questioning the accuracy of those commenting before me; however, I do know of a friend who also receives a one year mulitple entry O visa from an honorary consulate in the U.S. and he is also under 50 and not married to or a father of a thai citizen. I also understand that this is not strictly policy; however, the consulates tend to be more flexible.

[TerryLH]

And the more it's talked about here. the more likely it is to be discontinued.

[tfranz]

Right. These are usually the stories that should not be shared here. I have been the same consulate before and they have always been correct.

But one should not report about a case where something might have gone wrong.

Sent from my GT-I9070 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[gilliam]

I am 42-y-o, German citizenship only, not married, I have no children Thai or not. (Any girls out here? )

I am retired on a pension that would satisfy the income requirement of 800.000 Baht for a "retirement visa". (Girls???)

It's not exactly a state-pension (what elderly or disabled get by German social law), it's not exactly from an insurance, it's something in between.

I get it from a semi-public institution for lawyers on grounds of inability to continue working as one, at least on a daily basis.

It is a proper visa, fills one side of my passport. It's white and blue with a hologram, a red man-eagle coat-of-arms, a red round stamp, a signature, all the jingles and bells.

Type of visa reads: "Non-Immigrant". Category: "O" (and nothing else). No. of Entry: "M". Fee: "140 Euro". No remarks, a 8 digit number starting with B, my name and correct date of birth.

As I said, I went there with the from filled in as an application for a triple-entry tourist visa, and the nice guy changed a good couple of my entries in front of me and got me a 1-y Non-O instead.

.

Congratulations on your success and thank you for taking the time to post your experiences.

Enjoy your time in Thailand.

[ubonjoe]

Essen is a honorary consulate that apparently is still flexible about issuing multiple entry non-o visas and has remained under the radar of the MFA or the embassy. In the past there were several honorary consulates that were the same way (non-o visas to visit friends for example) but got scolded (or threatened) for being that way.

[Saradoc1972]

Ok folks, I just sussed this out.

Word is back from "Ask the Lawyer", quite short, no problems perceivable.

As to the many people on here screaming "that can't be right", don't post it here, you went lucky or s.th.: I don't think so.

The only thing I got lucky with was running into extremely helpful staff. I looked up three different embassy homepages (UK, Germany, Cambodia) and by that you can get a Non-immigrant "O-M" (the M is multiple entries, not O-A, that is "long stay") if you get a STATE PENSION. Read: state pension.

There are different requirements for O-M and O-A visa, comes natural to a lawyer, don't get befuddled by that pension thing or start thinking "retirement" when reading pension. The O-A is for anyone 50 and older with the money, no matter where that money comes from or whether they actually are retired. The O-M (or O-S) is for everybody on a pension or for a score of other reasons with their own requirements.

So, how many people under 50 will be on a state pension that fulfills the financial requirements or makes going over even viable?

Not so many. German "Beamte" (civil servants) perhaps. And a group of eight academic professions, lawyer is one of them.

Had one client worried about dropping out of work at age 40, had worked as an engineer on 90+k for 15 years, would have gotten 1000 € a month out of the German social system (and it's not that bad)... well, for him, his wife, 2 kids. Read: crawl to social services to top up, and those won't be paying a cent in Thailand.

If you start reading those embassy pages, be aware some of the criteria listed there might be alternative or cumulative, and there is little guidance as to what's what. (this is lawyers' work), if they have not been overly neat compiling them.

And as always, embassies and consulates have discretion, but I don't think I got a Christmas present here.

[ubonjoe]

From MFA website. http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/123/15398-Issuance-of-Visa.html

- other activities (Category "O") as follows:

to stay with the family, to perfrom duties for the state enterprise or social welfare organizations, to stay after retirement for the elderly, to receive medical treatment, to be a sport coach as required by Thai Government, to be a contestant or witness for the judicial process.

What it all really comes down to is it is at the discretion of the consul who issues the visa.. Since "other activities" is used for "category O visas it can open the doors to lots of things.

Once the visa is issued there will be no questions asked about it on entry to the country.

[Carib]

Saradoc, I do think you were handed a Christmas present.

If all consulates would hand out a Non-O this way without having to give them a reason, the questions in this Thai-visa section about "how can I stay long time" would be reduced to next to nothing. Just show up at a consulate, maybe you need to convince them that you can take care of yourself money wise, and you are in.

No more border runs every 15 or 30 days, no more trying to get a new tourist visa at a "friendly" consulate where they may be willing to give you the next visa stamp after you already got a few, no more ED courses just to stay in the Kingdom, and no more hassle or insecurity about the next entry/extension. All you have to do is leave every 90 days, until after the last possible entry, and then ask for a new Non-O ?. It sounds like a “tourist” wet dream and therefore it is the already mentioned Christmas present.

Hope you have a nice time and that it all works out ok for you.

[Maestro]

...

The only thing I got lucky with was running into extremely helpful staff. I looked up three different embassy homepages (UK, Germany, Cambodia) and by that you can get a Non-immigrant "O-M" (the M is multiple entries, not O-A, that is "long stay") if you get a STATE PENSION. Read: state pension.

...

Your mention of the O-M visa, which you got, is interesting. I would greatly appreciate it if you kindly scanned and posted this visa, as this visa category is still missing in my reference album of passport stamps. Alternatively, if you have no facility for scanning, please indicate what is written on your visa in the field for "Category"

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Saradoc1972]

Ok, here goes the scan of that visa.

Folks, I don't know what other words I could use in English or any other language to impress on some of you, that I got this because I am on a state pension.

That sort of thing is hard to come by at my age and in the amount I get. And you wouldn't want to be in the shape I'm in on a bad day.

When still working I spent about a third of my time helping clients to get something in that line on grounds of disability, most were above 50, cases took up to 2 years, rate of success was some 30% and the best one got around 1200€, rest about half that. And none of those would have been able to take it out of the country (erm... legally).

Being on a state pension is an absolutely legitimate cause for an "Non-Immigrant-O" Visa, M or S.

Read those web pages where they expressly state "state pension" or "Rentner" (Pensioner).

http://thaiembassyuk.org.uk/?q=node/49

http://www.thaiembassy.de/de/menu-consular/how-to-apply-for-a-visa (in German, about 2/3 down the page)

There is no guarantee the next consulate or embassy will issue me the same, especially in those places crowded by permanent tourists, but once they issue one that's the end of the matter.

[Maestro]

Thank you for uploading your visa. I was a bit confused when you mentioned a non O-M visa yesterday but I see now that it is what has been discussed, a regular non-immigrant visa category O valid for multiple – ie an unlimited number of – entries into Thailand, on Thaivisa usually called multiple-entry non-O visa for short. Your visa is perfectly legal and you will have no problem entering Thailand with it as many times as you like between now and 12 June 2015. Others with a government disability pension and younger than 50, applying at other consulates, have not been as fortunate and I remember somebody in this situation posting about two years ago who was refused the non-O visa at a Thai consulate with a less understanding consul in Switzerland.

(I see the text on the visa says that it was issued in Düsseldorf, which probably means that the consulate moved recently from there to nearby (52 km) Essen and they haven't got their visa printing machine adjusted yet)

[jethro69]

I was suggested exactly the same visa, from some folks (not only one, and different nationalities), who stayed on that non-O visa, but now qualify for a retirement visa.

Apparently, you'll get it only in your home country, (or the consulate which covers your country). I'll just drop them a mail, which kind of visa they suggest, mentioning the multiple-entry non-O. At least last year, they were helpful, but I was short on time, as I received my new passport only the same day when leaving.

[Saradoc1972]

Trying to get the next follow-up Non-O in my own country is a piece of solid advice.

I will - as things are - not be able to find out what other countries' consulates' or embassies' take on things are within the next year.

I have a passport issue in that this thingy with it's absolutely non-machine-recognizable photo and lack of RFID-chips will run out 9/15, and I got lucky to get the Non-O with passport validity being under 18 month.

So I'll head back to Germany in about a year to get a new passport, will save me 50 € even on fast track, and *definitely* call back to Essen (and have my spaghetti alle vongole), as I probably will have to settle other affairs in Germany.

After that - I dunno - I will try Phnom Penh for a Non-O-M, get an ED-Visa, inculcate my progeny on Thailand and the world, whatever.

The law will find a way...

[ubonjoe]

It would be best to try and get a new non-o while you are in Germany next year. You certainly will not get one anywhere in this part of the world.

[Naam]

I am 42-y-o, German citizenship only, not married, I have no children Thai or not. (Any girls out here? )

I am retired on a pension that would satisfy the income requirement of 800.000 Baht for a "retirement visa". (Girls???)

It's not exactly a state-pension (what elderly or disabled get by German social law), it's not exactly from an insurance, it's something in between.

I get it from a semi-public institution for lawyers on grounds of inability to continue working as one, at least on a daily basis.

It is a proper visa, fills one side of my passport. It's white and blue with a hologram, a red man-eagle coat-of-arms, a red round stamp, a signature, all the jingles and bells.

Type of visa reads: "Non-Immigrant". Category: "O" (and nothing else). No. of Entry: "M". Fee: "140 Euro". No remarks, a 8 digit number starting with B, my name and correct date of birth.

As I said, I went there with the from filled in as an application for a triple-entry tourist visa, and the nice guy changed a good couple of my entries in front of me and got me a 1-y Non-O instead.

He told me: "a pensioner is a pensioner is a pensioner" and so I could get this, but I could not get residency like under a real "pensioner visa" (i.e. Non-Imm O-A), so I'd have to do border-runs every 90 days.

You can't have a "retirement " visa your not old enough, you need to be 50

that is not correct Soutpeel. "retirement" visas can be given to persons younger than 50 years if certain criteria are met.

ask the visa-master and moderator "Mario" who posted a relevant regulation a few months ago.

[Mario2008]

Only if you have 10 million baht to invest in Thailand.