I need some help/ advice with my bar’s sound system.

[Mobi]

In the past I have been the first to complain when I go into a bar and the sound system is so bad that I’d rather they turn it off than hear them crucifying the music.

Now the tables are turned and I am face with a bit of a dilemma.

I have installed my old (15 years) Sony amp and speaker system (2 speakers) in Mobi’s, which considering their age and the fact they are designed for home use; are not at all bad, but sadly they are not quite up to the job, especially when trying to compete against music in the adjacent bars.

If I crank the volume up too high, the sound is badly distorted, and in any case it is apparent that I need more speakers to reach all areas of the bar and probably a woofer.

I had always intended that the Sony home system would only be a stop-gap and knew that somewhere down the line I would have to invest in something better, once I had established that the bar business was viable and that my ‘non bog-standard’ choice of music proved popular, which seems to be the case.

My dilemma is that I simply cannot afford to fork out a large sum for a state of the art imported club system, using JBL or the like. I need something reasonably cheap – quite possibly Thai made - or maybe second hand.

The seating area of my bar isn’t that large and I am sure there must be something economical out there that can do the job.

I really don’t know where to go to find this sort of stuff and even if I did, simply trying out in a shop is not going to tell me if it will do the job I my bar.

Another wrinkle is that the amp must have a digital optical input, as that is the only way I can get the sound out of the TV. (I play music vids from my PC and run an HDMI cable to the LG TV but as stated, the only audio output is digital optical)

Any advice on what to buy and where, and how I can ascertain if it will do the job,would be much appreciated. (My bar is in Pattaya).

[IMHO]

Few questions:

1) How big is the bar - the whole public area?

2) What is the full PAX?

3) How loud does it need to play? As a guide, a home theatre system does around 100-110dB nominal, a decent nightclub will do around 120-130dB, a loud concert 130-140+dB (every +10dB is roughly 2x louder to the human ear)

4) Your eclectic music collection, does it include electronic music with high levels of deep bass - i.e. lower than a bass guitar? (~41Hz)

5) Do you ever do Karaoke nights, or support live acts?

6) What's your budget?

[Mobi]

Few questions:

1) How big is the bar - the whole public area?

2) What is the full PAX?

3) How loud does it need to play? As a guide, a home theatre system does around 100-110dB nominal, a decent nightclub will do around 120-130dB, a loud concert 130-140+dB (every +10dB is roughly 2x louder to the human ear)

4) Your eclectic music collection, does it include electronic music with high levels of deep bass - i.e. lower than a bass guitar? (~41Hz)

5) Do you ever do Karaoke nights, or support live acts?

6) What's your budget?

I will get back to you about the public area as I need to do a rough measure - I'm hopeless at estimating.

If it's any help, the main area will seat about 20 odd people, and more if standing, but we never have a full house, even half that and I'm very happy.

It doesn't need to be very loud , maybe the same as a home theatre or occasionally a tad louder if they are paying attention to the music. (It varies). The bar is covered but largely open to the noise from the road and the nearby bars. If there is no external noise, my two Sony speakers almost do the trick, but even a good crowd talking loudly will smother the sound.

On the other hand I don't want it so loud that my customers are unable to chat.

No electronic music but I do play a fair bit of jazz, fifties and pre fifties music which often has double basses which often tend to distort, although the source sound is also distorted. The louder it is the more distorted it becomes. As you can imagine, a lot of my old music, (and even much of the more recent stuff from you tube), is not of wonderful quality so I'm not expecting miracles on sound reproduction, but any improvement on what I've go will be welcome.

No kareoke, no live support acts. It's small bar and most of the customers come for a chat, watch live sport and maybe listen to some decent music that is not rap/hip-hop/techno.etc.

With a few exceptions, a majority of the customers are over 50.

Frankly, I have no budget but I realise I will have to spend to improve on what I've got. I have no idea what it may cost so please feel free to give me an idea.

[jmccarty]

I have seen you bar by the lake. Looks like about 1,200ft2 from passng by.

I know a place with good local systems or Chinese systems that can be quite good in Sri Racha.

Take the 7 to the first exit or 2nd past the PTT service station rest area, follow that down to Sukhumvit, turn left. About 1,500m on the left side is a stereo shop. You will see the equipment out in front of the place. Parking is right in front of it.

Best to bring a Thai speaking person with you. One of my office colleagues has purchased some components from this business and says it is very good equipment.

I have also purchased higher end China made equipment from Cayin/Spark Audio and it is first rate equipment. And not very expensive for what it is. http://en.cayin.cn/index.asp

[Mobi]

I have seen you bar by the lake. Looks like about 1,200ft2 from passng by.

I know a place with good local systems or Chinese systems that can be quite good in Sri Racha.

Take the 7 to the first exit or 2nd past the PTT service station rest area, follow that down to Sukhumvit, turn left. About 1,500m on the left side is a stereo shop. You will see the equipment out in front of the place. Parking is right in front of it.

Best to bring a Thai speaking person with you. One of my office colleagues has purchased some components from this business and says it is very good equipment.

I have also purchased higher end China made equipment from Cayin/Spark Audio and it is first rate equipment. And not very expensive for what it is. http://en.cayin.cn/index.asp

Thanks, that was exactly the kind of advice I was looking for

[ice4351]

There is a new audio store on Pattaya Klang near Foodland on the north side which has all kinds of speakers and amps. I would check with them.

[peterb17]

You could look at Collingbourne auctions- they have some apparently new boxed JBL speakers on the web site.

I have never been, and not sure if things go very cheaply?

Some new speakers may sort things out.

Good luck with your bar.

[garyinhuahin]

Take some pictures with you to the shop, and maybe a floor plan. If there's somebody there who shows interest, they may help you to design the system a bit more and help you make good selections. Best yet, if a qualified person comes to your place. This is likely to save money overall (since you won't buy things that don't work) and will pay off again when something goes on the fritz or you're ready for the next upgrade.

[12DrinkMore]

Few questions:

1) How big is the bar - the whole public area?

2) What is the full PAX?

3) How loud does it need to play? As a guide, a home theatre system does around 100-110dB nominal, a decent nightclub will do around 120-130dB, a loud concert 130-140+dB (every +10dB is roughly 2x louder to the human ear)

4) Your eclectic music collection, does it include electronic music with high levels of deep bass - i.e. lower than a bass guitar? (~41Hz)

5) Do you ever do Karaoke nights, or support live acts?

6) What's your budget?

Exposing customers and staff to those levels of noise WILL cause PERMANENT hearing loss after just a few minutes, which is CUMULATIVE.

I know, because I cannot hear high frequencies anymore.

Instead of competing with the bar next door, how about cooperating and playing the same music at a lower level?

[StefanBBK]

Try AJ.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[IMHO]

If you existing Sony system has an optical input to decode from your TV, and also has a headphone-out, you could solve the problem with some powered speakers - which in turn might open up some more budget to buy something better...

I know you said "No JBL" but I'm going to throw an idea at you anyway - simply because they are proper professional grade speakers that will just keep on playing practically forever, even when abused, they will certainly sound much better than the standard cheapies and knock-offs you'll find in most stores, and given the low PAX/small size of the venue, and your ascertains on volume requirements, you don't need to step up to their bigger, louder and more expensive kit.

JBL LSR308 - 21K Baht/pr. These are actually professional recording studio monitors, but unlike most in the segment, sound just as good in the room as they do in near-field. I can't think of a single powered speaker in their price range that gets even remotely close to their sound quality. A pair of them will comfortably get you into the 110-115 dB range and their incredibly wide dispersion will give a much more even sound throughout the room (minimal 'hot spots') than most typical PA speakers with only 50-70 degrees dispersion.

These can be picked up on eBay for USD $646/pair including shipping and all Thai taxes, and would only need a power plug each, and a cheap adaptor cable to get the headphone out from your sony to the back of them (they have digital amps built in to each cabinet). They have enough bottom end extension and output for all but the heaviest of electronic dance music - and if they're not enough to overcome ambient bass levels, the matching sub can be added later (~20K Baht delivered and taxed).

These will only be a few dB louder than your current Sony speakers though, so not really sure if that's enough? Are you sure you only need marginally louder than what you have right now? Based on your original description, I would suggest something capable of 120dB plus might be more like what you're looking for?

Edited June 18, 2014 by IMHO

[IMHO]

Few questions:

1) How big is the bar - the whole public area?

2) What is the full PAX?

3) How loud does it need to play? As a guide, a home theatre system does around 100-110dB nominal, a decent nightclub will do around 120-130dB, a loud concert 130-140+dB (every +10dB is roughly 2x louder to the human ear)

4) Your eclectic music collection, does it include electronic music with high levels of deep bass - i.e. lower than a bass guitar? (~41Hz)

5) Do you ever do Karaoke nights, or support live acts?

6) What's your budget?

Exposing customers and staff to those levels of noise WILL cause PERMANENT hearing loss after just a few minutes, which is CUMULATIVE.

I know, because I cannot hear high frequencies anymore.

Instead of competing with the bar next door, how about cooperating and playing the same music at a lower level?

Good luck with that last suggestion - fact is sound is to barfiles as flame is to moths

[kdf]

Hi Mobi,

A cheap easy idea is to check your speaker wire.

Long runs of thin wire create resistance and the bass is the first to go. We are not talking high end sound here, just pleasant sounds for the customers. You can get thicker gauge cable and run that to your speakers and see if that helps. It would be great if this was all you need. This is an often overlooked problem when people start running longer wire lengths, which you may have done. Amorn in the basement of Tucom will have some wire, but stay away from spendy stuff for this older system. If the cables do not seem sufficiently thick and they are cheap, try a double run. You can even use the same wire, Romex like stuff, used in the walls for electricity. Again, not high end sound, but may get enough clean juice to your speakers to let them work for you a while longer.

Good luck

[Mobi]

Few questions:

1) How big is the bar - the whole public area?

2) What is the full PAX?

3) How loud does it need to play? As a guide, a home theatre system does around 100-110dB nominal, a decent nightclub will do around 120-130dB, a loud concert 130-140+dB (every +10dB is roughly 2x louder to the human ear)

4) Your eclectic music collection, does it include electronic music with high levels of deep bass - i.e. lower than a bass guitar? (~41Hz)

5) Do you ever do Karaoke nights, or support live acts?

6) What's your budget?

Exposing customers and staff to those levels of noise WILL cause PERMANENT hearing loss after just a few minutes, which is CUMULATIVE.

I know, because I cannot hear high frequencies anymore.

Instead of competing with the bar next door, how about cooperating and playing the same music at a lower level?

I have no intention of competing with the bar next door and for the most part their sound isn't very loud, (except when they have no customers and the girls decide to crank it up with some Thai music...). But people sitting a close to the next bar receive sound from two sources and I just want to try and get mine just loud enough (or maybe strategically placed) to minimise this problem. I have built a sound-proof wall partition out as far as I am allowed and it works very well when sitting adjacent to it, but out in the middle of the bar it doesn't work.

Some of my worst problems have been from the bar next door but one, which is a fair distance away, but on occasion they crank up their music so loud that we can't hear ourselves speak in our bar - but there's not a lot I can do about that, except try to talk to the bar owner.

[Mobi]

If you existing Sony system has an optical input to decode from your TV, and also has a headphone-out, you could solve the problem with some powered speakers - which in turn might open up some more budget to buy something better...

I know you said "No JBL" but I'm going to throw an idea at you anyway - simply because they are proper professional grade speakers that will just keep on playing practically forever, even when abused, they will certainly sound much better than the standard cheapies and knock-offs you'll find in most stores, and given the low PAX/small size of the venue, and your ascertains on volume requirements, you don't need to step up to their bigger, louder and more expensive kit.

JBL LSR308 - 21K Baht/pr. These are actually professional recording studio monitors, but unlike most in the segment, sound just as good in the room as they do in near-field. I can't think of a single powered speaker in their price range that gets even remotely close to their sound quality. A pair of them will comfortably get you into the 110-115 dB range and their incredibly wide dispersion will give a much more even sound throughout the room (minimal 'hot spots') than most typical PA speakers with only 50-70 degrees dispersion.

These can be picked up on eBay for USD $646/pair including shipping and all Thai taxes, and would only need a power plug each, and a cheap adaptor cable to get the headphone out from your sony to the back of them (they have digital amps built in to each cabinet). They have enough bottom end extension and output for all but the heaviest of electronic dance music - and if they're not enough to overcome ambient bass levels, the matching sub can be added later (~20K Baht delivered and taxed).

These will only be a few dB louder than your current Sony speakers though, so not really sure if that's enough? Are you sure you only need marginally louder than what you have right now? Based on your original description, I would suggest something capable of 120dB plus might be more like what you're looking for?

Yes, it has headphone out with a standard headphone jack socket. Will powered speakers only work through a headphone socket and not via the normal speaker outputs on the amp. (Excuse my ignorance - I am learning as I go)

[astral]

You mention a Sony system, designed for the small home?

Probably not adequate for the bar

New speakers and cables may help

but for a decent system you need an amp with enough grunt to drive the speakers.

This does not have to be expensive, or particularly HiFi.

Look for an amp that will do what you need at around half volume.

Cranked up to higher levels, distortion and possibly clipping will become apparent

[IMHO]

If you existing Sony system has an optical input to decode from your TV, and also has a headphone-out, you could solve the problem with some powered speakers - which in turn might open up some more budget to buy something better...

I know you said "No JBL" but I'm going to throw an idea at you anyway - simply because they are proper professional grade speakers that will just keep on playing practically forever, even when abused, they will certainly sound much better than the standard cheapies and knock-offs you'll find in most stores, and given the low PAX/small size of the venue, and your ascertains on volume requirements, you don't need to step up to their bigger, louder and more expensive kit.

JBL LSR308 - 21K Baht/pr. These are actually professional recording studio monitors, but unlike most in the segment, sound just as good in the room as they do in near-field. I can't think of a single powered speaker in their price range that gets even remotely close to their sound quality. A pair of them will comfortably get you into the 110-115 dB range and their incredibly wide dispersion will give a much more even sound throughout the room (minimal 'hot spots') than most typical PA speakers with only 50-70 degrees dispersion.

These can be picked up on eBay for USD $646/pair including shipping and all Thai taxes, and would only need a power plug each, and a cheap adaptor cable to get the headphone out from your sony to the back of them (they have digital amps built in to each cabinet). They have enough bottom end extension and output for all but the heaviest of electronic dance music - and if they're not enough to overcome ambient bass levels, the matching sub can be added later (~20K Baht delivered and taxed).

These will only be a few dB louder than your current Sony speakers though, so not really sure if that's enough? Are you sure you only need marginally louder than what you have right now? Based on your original description, I would suggest something capable of 120dB plus might be more like what you're looking for?

Yes, it has headphone out with a standard headphone jack socket. Will powered speakers only work through a headphone socket and not via the normal speaker outputs on the amp. (Excuse my ignorance - I am learning as I go)

The headphone out will give powered speakers (or a separate amp) the correct signal level they want. The speaker outputs are much more powerful - but they could be used with an appropriate high-level to low-level converter (buy from a car audio store for a few hundred baht).

If you go the latter route, you could then continue to use your existing sony speakers as well... with 4 speakers to play with, you should be able to get a solid result based on your description so far..

Edited June 18, 2014 by IMHO

[MikeENZ]

The only place you should ever be dealing with for sound if its not imported in Thailand is NPE in Bangkok. Do you want active (powered PA) or passive (amp/crossover and seperate speakers)

[Mobi]

There's a lot here to mull over.

It so happens that I also have an ancient but very powerful Sony theatre system at home, (STR-DE835), which only partly works, (as far as I can tell....), but crucially the sub-woofer (very powerful) and the central speaker output works. It also has digital optical inputs. I hadn't considered using it before as I use it at home, but since I opened the bar I haven't switched it on once; so I have decided to see if it is any use at my bar before I start forking out money for new amps, speakers etc.

To be honest, I can only partly understand the myriad knobs , switches and buttons on the amp - it looks very complicated.

I'm going to take it to my bar and try various combinations with the other Sony speakers and the theatre speakers and see where I get.

I'm off to Bangkok for the day tomorrow, but will report back on this thread when I get back.

Thanks for all the help and advice so far

[khunPer]

Mobi, without a budget you are in for some limitations compared to an optimal solution with a new system. So let’s see what can be done to improve what you got.

You say: »If I crank the volume up too high, the sound is badly distorted, and in any case it is apparent that I need more speakers to reach all areas of the bar and probably a woofer.«

Distortion comes from the amp working too hard and is a “normal problem”, the amp make the nice rounded sinus-curves to square-form and the power supply become stressed (condensers cannot charge up quick enough to release peak power for nice clear undistorted transients). Solution is not just more speakers connected to the same amp, but more amps running at a descent sound level.

You also say: »No electronic music but I do play a fair bit of jazz, fifties and pre fifties music which often has double basses which often tend to distort, although the source sound is also distorted. The louder it is the more distorted it becomes. As you can imagine, a lot of my old music, (and even much of the more recent stuff from you tube), is not of wonderful quality so I'm not expecting miracles on sound reproduction, but any improvement on what I've go will be welcome.«

Your Sony amp, which you use for the optical input, probably has some line out (for example a pair of phono plugs, preferably after volume control). That can be used to connect a second amp or further amps to improve your sound pressure level and distribute sound to additional speakers.

Your description of music played and that you want you customers to be able to have a conversation, you shall not use a single main system, but distributed speakers, each not playing that loud – an easy comparable example for you to think off is the surround speakers in a cinema, the many small speakers on the side walls; whilst the a main system is the big front speakers behind the silver screen.

The amp trick is, that even a fairly cheap amp can perform nice when not banged up too hi in volume (an expensive amp may also sound horrible if working on too high level or max out). It’s the bass waves making distortion, so in general larger systems works with a crossover, distributing the low frequency to a bass amp and speaker; and the mid/high frequency only to separate amps and speakers (again think of the cinema, which has a huge bass system to create that funky waves). A sub-bass will improve sound and remove stress from the mid/hi speakers, which will make the double bass in your jazz and fifties music sound nice, but that may not be essential. You can always ad a sub-bass or two later, if necessary, as any separate powered sub-bass will release some stress from mid/top. An active electronic “smart” cross over is the perfect solution, but not in question right now where you wish to keep your existing system and lower investment.

You can find many (very) fair priced big amps in most department stores’ TV-section, karaoke or whatever type is not that important, but the wattage is. An old-fashioned hi-power amp running at low volume will normally sound nice.

Finding acceptable sounding speakers can be a little bit more complicated, but there are many available for the cheaper karaoke style systems. Basically look at 2-way systems with a low/mid frequency unit and only one treble-diaphragm or horn placed in top of lo-speaker and on its vertical centreline, that will make least phase error in the speaker. Listen to the speakers playing your kind of music, as some designs may have too little mid-frequencies (or too much low-frequencies/bass); there may be variation from played very soft and at a descent sound level, so check both (don’t need to play too loud, that’s not the intention). The speakers used to distribute the surround sound in cinemas are often normal domestic hi-fi speakers, but many of them; so that’s an alternative (probably hard to find today without buying complete systems).

One big amp can run 2 or 4 extra speakers, besides your existing Sony system, and well distributed in your aprox 120 sqm pub, you can have a nice clear sound without guests feeling it’s too loud. (A huge amp, many watts, with small speakers, few watts, is not a problem; as long the amp is running at a descent sound level, i.e. not sending too much electric power to the speakers so the coils burn. A small amp, few watts, with huge speakers, many watts, running hard can crash the speakers due to distortion/square waves).

A remark about sound distribution; if you have one pair of speakers only and wish to reach the back of the area/room with an acceptable sound pressure level, you will need to play loud on the speakers, making a lot of noise for the guests sitting close. The higher up the speakers are, the louder you can play without too much disturbance in front of the speakers – that’s why you often will se concert system at side of stage “flying” in straps or placed on scaffoldings. General “hand rule” is, that the sound pressure level halves (minus 6dB) every time the distance doubles – i.e. if your speakers can play 100dB 1 meter from the front (the measuring point), then they will play 50% or 94dB in 2 meters distance, 88dB 4 meters away etc. (free air/sound dead room with no reflections). With many (smaller) speakers, you do not need to produce high sound pressure levels to reach the back, and you don’t need to stress your system.

Someone mentioned speaker wires. That’s not essential, as long as you use a fair sized copper wire – good mains cable with many strands is fine, 1 to 1.5 sq for your job; 10m to 20m cable length is not a problem at all. Its true speakers cables have (some) importance, but a silver-tread-monster may be not better than standard mains cable, even worse. It’s the cable isolation that cause the problem, the polymers in the isolation makes a condensing effect when reaching the conductive metal, which cause a small hi-frequency reduction, just like in a passive speaker cross over. Both in measuring and blind tests, standard mains cable performed better than most of the expensive speakers cables.

So my suggestion is, that for a (very) small investment you can radically improve your sound quality. Summed up: Non-expensive extra amp + extra speakers, running a low(er) volume.

Wish you good luck...

(PS: My background is professional audio, including speaker systems for recording studios, pubs, restaurants, discos, cinemas, theatre, and concerts…)

[canman]

@KhunPer

Good advice above. One thing I would add is that if you are buying speakers and amp seperate; make sure that the amp power output is rated higher than the speakers power rating. It sounds counter intuitive but that is the way to go. If the speakers have a higher power rating than the amp then at higher volume levels you risk the amp clipping and driving DC through your speaker which will fry them.

Edited June 18, 2014 by astral
Removal of long quote - Please use Reply button a the bottom

[astral]

Be very careful about Adding Extra speakers

This can easily damage the amp, if not done correctly

[rijb]

The more speakers, the better. Spread them around, using decent wire.

They don't have to be big, powerful, or expensive.

You won't need to use as much volume, resulting in a lot less distortion.

[VocalNeal]

We used to have JBL. But the rule of thumb used to be decide on a budget and then spend half of it on the speakers.

I think your best option is as has been said to add more speakers such that you don't have to increase the volume to the point where you get distortion.

Edited June 18, 2014 by VocalNeal

[Crossy]

Be very careful about Adding Extra speakers

This can easily damage the amp, if not done correctly

I would be tempted to use powered speakers with individual volume controls so you can get the right balance, an overall volume control on the input to the speakers would allow 'global' adjustment.

A pet hate of mine in many bars is to only hear one channel of the stereo, I would mix it to mono so all the speakers carry the same audio.

Of course, budget comes in to the equation

[pluto_manibo]

I have a pair of Behringer B300 Powered speakers, cables, stands for sale, if you are interested. They are in mint condition, not commercially used. Excellent sound. Pm for more info.

[Mobi]

I have a pair of Behringer B300 Powered speakers, cables, stands for sale, if you are interested. They are in mint condition, not commercially used. Excellent sound. Pm for more info.

Would I be able to connect them to my Sony amp (either one) via the headphone outlet? ( and of course, would they sound OK?)

Edited June 18, 2014 by Mobi

[stubuzz]

Adding extra speakers will increase the resistance, ohms load, on the amp; it will work harder, get hot, and blow. Check out what ohms load the amp can take. Powered speakers will overcome this problem and will be cheaper than a crossover with separates.

[IMHO]

Mobi, without a budget you are in for some limitations compared to an optimal solution with a new system. So let’s see what can be done to improve what you got.

You say: »If I crank the volume up too high, the sound is badly distorted, and in any case it is apparent that I need more speakers to reach all areas of the bar and probably a woofer.«

Distortion comes from the amp working too hard and is a “normal problem”, the amp make the nice rounded sinus-curves to square-form and the power supply become stressed (condensers cannot charge up quick enough to release peak power for nice clear undistorted transients). Solution is not just more speakers connected to the same amp, but more amps running at a descent sound level.

You also say: »No electronic music but I do play a fair bit of jazz, fifties and pre fifties music which often has double basses which often tend to distort, although the source sound is also distorted. The louder it is the more distorted it becomes. As you can imagine, a lot of my old music, (and even much of the more recent stuff from you tube), is not of wonderful quality so I'm not expecting miracles on sound reproduction, but any improvement on what I've go will be welcome.«

Your Sony amp, which you use for the optical input, probably has some line out (for example a pair of phono plugs, preferably after volume control). That can be used to connect a second amp or further amps to improve your sound pressure level and distribute sound to additional speakers.

Your description of music played and that you want you customers to be able to have a conversation, you shall not use a single main system, but distributed speakers, each not playing that loud – an easy comparable example for you to think off is the surround speakers in a cinema, the many small speakers on the side walls; whilst the a main system is the big front speakers behind the silver screen.

The amp trick is, that even a fairly cheap amp can perform nice when not banged up too hi in volume (an expensive amp may also sound horrible if working on too high level or max out). It’s the bass waves making distortion, so in general larger systems works with a crossover, distributing the low frequency to a bass amp and speaker; and the mid/high frequency only to separate amps and speakers (again think of the cinema, which has a huge bass system to create that funky waves). A sub-bass will improve sound and remove stress from the mid/hi speakers, which will make the double bass in your jazz and fifties music sound nice, but that may not be essential. You can always ad a sub-bass or two later, if necessary, as any separate powered sub-bass will release some stress from mid/top. An active electronic “smart” cross over is the perfect solution, but not in question right now where you wish to keep your existing system and lower investment.

You can find many (very) fair priced big amps in most department stores’ TV-section, karaoke or whatever type is not that important, but the wattage is. An old-fashioned hi-power amp running at low volume will normally sound nice.

Finding acceptable sounding speakers can be a little bit more complicated, but there are many available for the cheaper karaoke style systems. Basically look at 2-way systems with a low/mid frequency unit and only one treble-diaphragm or horn placed in top of lo-speaker and on its vertical centreline, that will make least phase error in the speaker. Listen to the speakers playing your kind of music, as some designs may have too little mid-frequencies (or too much low-frequencies/bass); there may be variation from played very soft and at a descent sound level, so check both (don’t need to play too loud, that’s not the intention). The speakers used to distribute the surround sound in cinemas are often normal domestic hi-fi speakers, but many of them; so that’s an alternative (probably hard to find today without buying complete systems).

One big amp can run 2 or 4 extra speakers, besides your existing Sony system, and well distributed in your aprox 120 sqm pub, you can have a nice clear sound without guests feeling it’s too loud. (A huge amp, many watts, with small speakers, few watts, is not a problem; as long the amp is running at a descent sound level, i.e. not sending too much electric power to the speakers so the coils burn. A small amp, few watts, with huge speakers, many watts, running hard can crash the speakers due to distortion/square waves).

A remark about sound distribution; if you have one pair of speakers only and wish to reach the back of the area/room with an acceptable sound pressure level, you will need to play loud on the speakers, making a lot of noise for the guests sitting close. The higher up the speakers are, the louder you can play without too much disturbance in front of the speakers – that’s why you often will se concert system at side of stage “flying” in straps or placed on scaffoldings. General “hand rule” is, that the sound pressure level halves (minus 6dB) every time the distance doubles – i.e. if your speakers can play 100dB 1 meter from the front (the measuring point), then they will play 50% or 94dB in 2 meters distance, 88dB 4 meters away etc. (free air/sound dead room with no reflections). With many (smaller) speakers, you do not need to produce high sound pressure levels to reach the back, and you don’t need to stress your system.

Someone mentioned speaker wires. That’s not essential, as long as you use a fair sized copper wire – good mains cable with many strands is fine, 1 to 1.5 sq for your job; 10m to 20m cable length is not a problem at all. Its true speakers cables have (some) importance, but a silver-tread-monster may be not better than standard mains cable, even worse. It’s the cable isolation that cause the problem, the polymers in the isolation makes a condensing effect when reaching the conductive metal, which cause a small hi-frequency reduction, just like in a passive speaker cross over. Both in measuring and blind tests, standard mains cable performed better than most of the expensive speakers cables.

So my suggestion is, that for a (very) small investment you can radically improve your sound quality. Summed up: Non-expensive extra amp + extra speakers, running a low(er) volume.

Wish you good luck...

(PS: My background is professional audio, including speaker systems for recording studios, pubs, restaurants, discos, cinemas, theatre, and concerts…)

You know, I skipped over the post estimating the venue at 1200sq foot - when I read max. 20 pax and a good crowd is only half that, it just imagined a tiny little bar

If the venue really is larger than that, then absolutely yes, the best way to go is several speakers carefully positioned for even distribution. My home pool bar (68sqm) has 8 mains and 2 subs so there's no deadspots or hotspots (well, except for my 2 FOH mains, which can create a big hotspot on demand).

Agree on speaker wire - I have seen countless PA systems wired with nothing more than 1.5mm - some so-called 'audiophile' cable manufacturers would have you believe you need 25mm2 just to support 100 watts, LOL

I have to say that I am a huge fan of powered speakers for PA use though - no one point of failure (i.e. you still have sound if an amp dies or overheats), and the output of each speaker can be individually controlled.

Using powered monitors like I suggested also gives you local EQ on each cabinet too, so you can compensate for the room acoustics in each location, and as noted, they have very wide dispersion (much wider than a PA speaker) which makes them much easier to locate and achieve a good balance, without combing or other nasty side effects:

Side Note: it's not that the Yamaha and KRK's are bad - they are much better than most - it's just that these JBL's a particularly awesome at smooth and linear dispersion.

Edited June 18, 2014 by IMHO

[derekwyoung]

Hi I have a 400 w rms amp that u can try for free. it is a 2 channel 200 w rms power amp, a bit tec the out transistors are mosfet bridge. U will need to provide power 12 volts dc ,a car battery with a battery charger and a very large condenser across the input to the amp. buy from RS in Bangkok this will stop distortion due to power drop at high peek outputs. this amp should be able to provide all the sound power u will ever need in your Barr . it has gain (volume) treble and base controls. I do not have any speakers u will need to have as many as u can afford this will distribute the sound better without having to turn up the volume . Speakers have a resistance measured in ohms and the amp has a preferred input resistance also in ohms You should try to match the speakers to the amp .The amp O/P is 3 ohms most speakers also 3 ohms . if u put 2 *3 ohm speakers in parallel to one Chanel the speakers will have a resistance of 1.5 ohms , not good for the amp . If you put 2 *3ohm speaker in series the resistance will be 6 ohms, this will not hurt the amp but will reduce the output a bit . Ideally 4 speakers in series parallel will return u to 3 ohms. if u have 4 speakers I would suggest u use one channel with similar speakers in each series leg Your speaker don't have to be very big if u have enough of them and replace the thin speeker wire with 10 amp mains flex from your local hardware store. and u would use the op from your sony headphones socket to supply input to the amp. if it works ok u can make me an offer the amp. any advice is free If u can set the sony o/p to mono

DEREK

PS. u pay the carrage OK