farang with thai nationality

[johnthompson]

I certainly hope they wont give anyone a thai id. Can you imagine if they gave all the indians and brit expats a thai id card? I will immediately leave this country.

[samran]

I certainly hope they wont give anyone a thai id. Can you imagine if they gave all the indians and brit expats a thai id card? I will immediately leave this country.

Most of the 'Indians' you see have Thai IDs and have been here for generations.

[Arkady]

Actually the regulations for PR and Thai citizenship are not all that unreasonable. The problem lies in the fact that there is no judicial review and the interior minister has complete discretion. In recent years that has meant both processes are drawn out for an unreasonable amount of time. 12 months or less was the norm for PR until the early 2000s and citizenship was also qucker in the past than it is now. If you think Thailand is ethnocentric in these policies, take a look at Japan.

Re jus soli, the right to citizenship by virtue of being born in a country to alien parents including illegal immigrants. This used to be universal but I think the US is now the only major country that retains this. Thailand ditched it in 1971 and the UK ditched it 10 years later in 1981.

[douginbkk]

From my real life experience here. Yes, foreigners can obtain Thai nationality without having to be born in Thailand or having any Thai parents. When I was studying at university here in the early nineties I knew several Indians who were not born here, but spent most of their lives here living with their Indian parents. Two of them had to take examinations mostly related to Thai language skills and both were eventually granted Thai citizenship. Admittedly, the process is a very long and difficult one, but it is possible. ไม่ได้สัญชาติไทย does not mean "no right to Thai citizenship" (not in the future sense anyway). It does not mention anything regarding rights whatsoever. Its actual meaning (not in direct translation) is more like "not granted Thai citizenship" at the time of birth. Also, a Thai house registration will have the citizenship of each person's parents stated in it so if one of the parents in the house registration is listed as a Thai national then the child will automatically be listed as a Thai citizen. If neither of the parents is listed as a Thai citizen then the child will also not be listed as a Thai citizen. When researching this subject, I'd recommend looking up William Heinecke who owns the Minor Group. He is American born and has been living in Thailand (originally with his American parents) since he was 14. He is now a naturalized Thai.

[Arkady]

From my real life experience here. Yes, foreigners can obtain Thai nationality without having to be born in Thailand or having any Thai parents. When I was studying at university here in the early nineties I knew several Indians who were not born here, but spent most of their lives here living with their Indian parents. Two of them had to take examinations mostly related to Thai language skills and both were eventually granted Thai citizenship. Admittedly, the process is a very long and difficult one, but it is possible. ไม่ได้สัญชาติไทย does not mean "no right to Thai citizenship" (not in the future sense anyway). It does not mention anything regarding rights whatsoever. Its actual meaning (not in direct translation) is more like "not granted Thai citizenship" at the time of birth. Also, a Thai house registration will have the citizenship of each person's parents stated in it so if one of the parents in the house registration is listed as a Thai national then the child will automatically be listed as a Thai citizen. If neither of the parents is listed as a Thai citizen then the child will also not be listed as a Thai citizen. When researching this subject, I'd recommend looking up William Heinecke who owns the Minor Group. He is American born and has been living in Thailand (originally with his American parents) since he was 14. He is now a naturalized Thai.

I think the gentleman you mentioned probably became wealthy enough to want to dispense with US citizenship for tax reasons. There are many other naturalised Thais besides him.

You are right about the "no right to Thai citizenship" designation in birth certificates. It signifies the status at the time of birth only. There are many who got that designation as a result of being born in Thailand to Thai mothers and foreign fathers before 1992. Subsequently they became Thai after the Nationality Act was amended to allow Thai women to pass on their nationality.

There are no arduous exams needed to become a naturalised Thai. The language testing procedure is rather informal and not difficult. Intermediate Thai only is required but you do need to be able to get through an interview at the Interior Ministry. This is much easier, if you apply on the basis of having a Thai spouse, as your spouse is interviewed with you.

For more information see this thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/121353-story-of-my-thai-citizenship-application/page-38

[Johpa]

When was the child born? If it was pre 1992 there may be options.

If post 1992, both parents would need to have PR at the child's birth for him or her to aquire Thai nationality.

Both of my children were born before 1992. Neither was born in Thailand. Both are listed on my wife's tabian baan (house registry), which is the key to the whole process. I travel to Thailand on simple visas, no residency status. Both of my chidren now have Thai citizenship obtained as young adults.

It did take alot of bureacratic legwork on my wife's part to make this happen with countless trips between the local District Office and Interior Office. But it takes a lot of work to get anything accomplished within the Thai bureaucracy. And like any bureaucracy, all it takes is one person to foil the process.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Johpa

[p_brownstone]

From my real life experience here. Yes, foreigners can obtain Thai nationality without having to be born in Thailand or having any Thai parents. When I was studying at university here in the early nineties I knew several Indians who were not born here, but spent most of their lives here living with their Indian parents. Two of them had to take examinations mostly related to Thai language skills and both were eventually granted Thai citizenship. Admittedly, the process is a very long and difficult one, but it is possible. ไม่ได้สัญชาติไทย does not mean "no right to Thai citizenship" (not in the future sense anyway). It does not mention anything regarding rights whatsoever. Its actual meaning (not in direct translation) is more like "not granted Thai citizenship" at the time of birth. Also, a Thai house registration will have the citizenship of each person's parents stated in it so if one of the parents in the house registration is listed as a Thai national then the child will automatically be listed as a Thai citizen. If neither of the parents is listed as a Thai citizen then the child will also not be listed as a Thai citizen. When researching this subject, I'd recommend looking up William Heinecke who owns the Minor Group. He is American born and has been living in Thailand (originally with his American parents) since he was 14. He is now a naturalized Thai.

I think the gentleman you mentioned probably became wealthy enough to want to dispense with US citizenship for tax reasons. There are many other naturalised Thais besides him.

You are right about the "no right to Thai citizenship" designation in birth certificates. It signifies the status at the time of birth only. There are many who got that designation as a result of being born in Thailand to Thai mothers and foreign fathers before 1992. Subsequently they became Thai after the Nationality Act was amended to allow Thai women to pass on their nationality.

There are no arduous exams needed to become a naturalised Thai. The language testing procedure is rather informal and not difficult. Intermediate Thai only is required but you do need to be able to get through an interview at the Interior Ministry. This is much easier, if you apply on the basis of having a Thai spouse, as your spouse is interviewed with you.

For more information see this thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/121353-story-of-my-thai-citizenship-application/page-38

Certainly the notation "ไม่ได้สัญชาติไทย" does not mean "no right to Thai citizenship" EVER on a Thai Birth Certificate - it merely denotes the status of the child at the time of Birth, and that is usually in the view of the Thai Hospital personnel who must submit the Document to the local Authorities.

In my own particular case when my Daughter was born in a Bangkok Hospital in 1983 I was so overwhelmed by the total experience that I took little notice of the Hospitals' Administration and how they submitted Documentation to the local Amphur.

My Wife is Thai and I had Permanent Residence status at that time, but the Hospital was unaware of that - they simply saw a Farang male parent and so had the ไม่ได้สัญชาติไทย Notation put on my Daughters' Thai Birth Certificate, virtually by default.

Took quite a lot of work to get that changed!

Patrick

[samran]

When was the child born? If it was pre 1992 there may be options.

If post 1992, both parents would need to have PR at the child's birth for him or her to aquire Thai nationality.

Both of my children were born before 1992. Neither was born in Thailand. Both are listed on my wife's tabian baan (house registry), which is the key to the whole process. I travel to Thailand on simple visas, no residency status. Both of my chidren now have Thai citizenship obtained as young adults.

It did take alot of bureacratic legwork on my wife's part to make this happen with countless trips between the local District Office and Interior Office. But it takes a lot of work to get anything accomplished within the Thai bureaucracy. And like any bureaucracy, all it takes is one person to foil the process.

Sounds like your wife is Thai?

[Johpa]

When was the child born? If it was pre 1992 there may be options.

If post 1992, both parents would need to have PR at the child's birth for him or her to aquire Thai nationality.

Both of my children were born before 1992. Neither was born in Thailand. Both are listed on my wife's tabian baan (house registry), which is the key to the whole process. I travel to Thailand on simple visas, no residency status. Both of my chidren now have Thai citizenship obtained as young adults.

It did take alot of bureacratic legwork on my wife's part to make this happen with countless trips between the local District Office and Interior Office. But it takes a lot of work to get anything accomplished within the Thai bureaucracy. And like any bureaucracy, all it takes is one person to foil the process.

Sounds like your wife is Thai?

Apologies as I misread the original post, yes my wife is a Thai national and thus my children have a different status than what the OP was asking about.

FWIW, in my many years of association with Thailand, I can count on my fingers the number of Farangs that I have met who have obtained Thai citizenship, mostly very long serving missionary familes up north with most excellent connections.

[Arkady]

Apologies as I misread the original post, yes my wife is a Thai national and thus my children have a different status than what the OP was asking about.

FWIW, in my many years of association with Thailand, I can count on my fingers the number of Farangs that I have met who have obtained Thai citizenship, mostly very long serving missionary familes up north with most excellent connections.

The reason for this is very few farangs apply for Thai citizenship or even permanent residence which is a necessary precursor, if you don't have a Thai spouse. Farangs account for less than 5% of approvals which I believe is in line with the number of applications - not usually more than half a dozen per year. I think that farangs are also less 10% of the total applications for PR too. Farangs tend to think they have no need for Thai nationality or PR, while Asian applicants are largely businessmen who want to own their own businesses and land.

I think the belief that connections are necessary is something of a fallacy. Connections can get help you get citizenship much quicker but we are talking about quite serious connections here to make a difference and they can't help people who are not fully qualified. It is actually a highly legalistic process and they are mainly concerned with ensuring that applicants meet all the requirements as specified in the regulations. Those who meet just the minimum requirements will be processed without connections but it will take several years. Bear in mind that you need to remain qualified throughout the application process.

Many farangs are quite sneering of the idea of trying to get Thai citizenship or PR and like to ask what benefit you would get from that, even that the benefits of being a citizen or a permanent resident in the country you have made your home are abundantly obvious. Each to his own.

[TerryLH]

"Many farangs are quite sneering of the idea of trying to get Thai citizenship or PR and like to ask what benefit you would get from that, even that the benefits of being a citizen or a permanent resident in the country you have made your home are abundantly obvious. Each to his own."

I'd guess that most with this attitude don't meet the basic requirements.

If they can't easily and cheaply get it, it must not be worth anything.

I find that same negative attitude with foreigners talking about SS benefits. "If it's Thai, it can't be any good."