Farang Husband still have to sign "not my money or interest" When wife buys Chanote Land Title Deed

[jasonr3255]

Thai wife is about to go back home to purchase some more land "Chanote Title Deed"

Last Time she purchased some land in her name was about 8yrs ago, I was with her at the Land Registry in Buriram and the top honcho asked if we were married and then proceeded to ask the wife if the money had come from me to purchase the land, she said no however he made me sign a document stating I had no interest in the land in any shape or form legally.

Now the questions I need answering are...

1. Is my wife now logged on the land registry system as "Married to Farang" ?

2. If so, Will she only be able to purchase land if I sign this document again. ?

3. If I do need to sign the form, can it be done by Fax to the Uk ? Or do I have to sign it in front of the clerk in

Thailand.

Anybody who can shed some light on this subject. I would appreciate

[moojar]

Hi Jason,

I don't know about "logged in the system" - not sure their system is computerised. You do legally need to sign the form for every purchase though. If you did get away with not signing it, you could be in for a lot of pain down the track.

Now, I haven't been thru the offshore process personally yet. But my wife rang the Consulate in Sydney and got some absolute BS answer regarding the process, then called the Embassy in Canberra and got a different much more reasonable answer. But they did both say you can do your part from your home country. The embassy's procedure is something like: you sign in front of the embassy staff, then you come back in a few days to pick up the processed document - they like it all done in person. The consulate wanted us to run all over town getting the document witnessed by Oz government officials. They both refused to supply a copy of the document - they wanted to see the Farang in person.

As for the land office, they told my wife they need the original of the document, but they would be OK with a scan as a temporary measure whilst the original is in transit. But that is obviously dependant on the local officials.

Hope this helps.

Edited June 29, 2014 by moojar

[bendywire]

So by signing these forms you and your good lady are lying and thus breaking the law. I have a simple rule with money. If I can't own it in paper. I won't buy it.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[moojar]

So by signing these forms you and your good lady are lying and thus breaking the law. I have a simple rule with money. If I can't own it in paper. I won't buy it.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

And my rule is, if it used to be for rent I won't marry it.

[Morch]

Last time my wife bought some land was about a year ago.

As far as I could fathom, the land department/office does not have a record of her being married to a foreigner

(at least not on the local government office level), and basically, if she didn't carry my surname and I was not

present, they wouldn't know. There's also no follow up record or listing after the purchase.

The signature had more to do with where the money for the purchase originated from, so technically, if it is easy

to show that it is hers/her family's money - should not matter. That said, got different versions of this in Bangkok

and in the province. It was said that not having the paper signed could result in difficulties if someone raises an

issue later on.

They were quite insistent that I sign it in person and in-front of the officer handling the title transfer papers.

As for trust issues, brought up by other posters - not saying people should go head first into these things.

More to do with how much one is willing to risk, how much can one afford to lose, and bottom line, what

sort of relationship you have with others. Can't say I'm too happy with not being able to own the land, but

made my peace with the decision and that it. There are various ways to protect oneself (leasing, house

ownership etc).

[tifino]

So by signing these forms you and your good lady are lying and thus breaking the law. I have a simple rule with money. If I can't own it in paper. I won't buy it.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

And my rule is, if it used to be for rent I won't marry it.

heh heh - ...or on LayBy

[PiPiFFS]

So by signing these forms you and your good lady are lying and thus breaking the law. I have a simple rule with money. If I can't own it in paper. I won't buy it.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Where in his post does it say it was his money ?

Do you simply presume all Thai ladies are penniless bar girls reliant on farangs for everything ?

My friends wife has far more money than he will ever have and she owns loads of land around Thailand.

Also even if it was his money it wouldn't be illegal as by signing the forms he is saying that he has no claim to the land so how is this illegal ?

[jasonr3255]

So by signing these forms you and your good lady are lying and thus breaking the law. I have a simple rule with money. If I can't own it in paper. I won't buy it.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Where in his post does it say it was his money ?

Do you simply presume all Thai ladies are penniless bar girls reliant on farangs for everything ?

My friends wife has far more money than he will ever have and she owns loads of land around Thailand.

Also even if it was his money it wouldn't be illegal as by signing the forms he is saying that he has no claim to the land so how is this illegal ?

Absolutely, the Wife has her own money which she has earned in the UK, my contribution financially to buying land finished after stage 1 years ago building the house ! everything in life is leased, and I am aware the house we built together will never be mine on paper and it certainly won't fold up and fit inside a six by two box along with my millions when I'm pushing up daisies !!!???

Thanks for the replies but still no clearer on my original questions....?....?

[tifino]

maybe wait a little longer, 'til a legalese-speakie (like i.e. ) AoA stumbles upon the Thread for you...

[AnotherOneAmerican]

So by signing these forms you and your good lady are lying and thus breaking the law. I have a simple rule with money. If I can't own it in paper. I won't buy it.

No law being broken, the Land office have no authority to issue such a document, nor are they a court where you would have to swear under oath.

The only point of the document is so that the land office can claim they checked as far as they could.

The document has no value in a Thai court, in the event of a land ownership dispute between husband and wife.

Edited June 29, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[AnotherOneAmerican]

As far as I could fathom, the land department/office does not have a record of her being married to a foreigner

(at least not on the local government office level), and basically, if she didn't carry my surname and I was not

present, they wouldn't know. There's also no follow up record or listing after the purchase.

Details of her marriage to a foreigner (if married or registered in Thailand) are linked to her ID card, and will appear when swiped on the Land office computer.

Edited June 29, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[Langsuan Man]

The Land Office can ask for whatever they want since they go by the laws governing land (commercial code)

But when it comes time for a divorce all you will have to do is show that you contributed to the purchase and you will be eligible for your 50% of marital assets since that is covered by marriage laws (civil code)

[Gulfsailor]

Looking beyond the specifics of a Thai-foreign marriage but just marriage in general in Thailand, if a spouse has a right to 50% of assets, I assume it is the same when it comes to liabilities. Then shouldn't husband and wife always sign together for any major purchases, like land or a house? Or when signing for something like a mortgage?

[gamini]

If I give my wife 10 million baht for her birthday it becomes her money. The land department can ask you to sign what ever paper they like. Even if they found out that you had given her money they could never use the signed paper in a court of law..There is no law to say you cant give money to your wife as a present and she buys land with it. The whole procedure is so ridiculous and pathetic.I would not go as far as to refuse to sign it. But I would take no notice of it. I guess most of you remember Taksins wife giving her brother Bt60 million for his birthday. The court ruled it could not be taxed because it was his money even thougth she transfered to him to avoid yax.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

If I give my wife 10 million baht for her birthday it becomes her money. The land department can ask you to sign what ever paper they like. Even if they found out that you had given her money they could never use the signed paper in a court of law..There is no law to say you cant give money to your wife as a present and she buys land with it. The whole procedure is so ridiculous and pathetic.I would not go as far as to refuse to sign it. But I would take no notice of it. I guess most of you remember Taksins wife giving her brother Bt60 million for his birthday. The court ruled it could not be taxed because it was his money even thougth she transfered to him to avoid yax.

Gifts within a marriage are considered contractual in Thailand.

(In other words, she has to remain your wife to keep them)

On divorce you can ask for all and any gifts to be returned.

(gold, money, land, cars)

The only thing they can keep is sinsot, which is a gift for the parents, not the wife.

Edited June 29, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[Maestro]

What is your source for these statements?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Baerboxer]

My wife bought some more land. When she went to do all the paperwork the Land Office, seeing her surname, asked if her husband had wad farang. I had to go with her and sign to say that the money had come from outside of Thailand. They said this was to comply with anti money laundering rules and so my wife could demonstrate how and where she got the funds from. That was just before Songkran.

When we bought this house 7-8 years ago, the local amphur took me into a private office and went through all the documents I had to sign and what it meant.

[billd766]

So by signing these forms you and your good lady are lying and thus breaking the law. I have a simple rule with money. If I can't own it in paper. I won't buy it.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Good for you.

In my case I bought it for my Thai wife and family.

Why would I need to own it?

I owned a house in the UK in a 3 way slit between me, my UK wife and the building society.

We divorced, she got the house, the building society got their money and I kept my pensions and everything of mine that would fit in a Ford Mondeo estate.

I also have not yet managed to work out how to take 25 rai of land, 3 houses and a shop with me when I die.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

What is your source for these statements?

Sorry, lost the online reference (senior moment), will keep trying to find it.

Only found an oblique reference to returning gifts here,

http://usa.siam-legal.com/family-law/thai-dowry.php

"It is also wise to wait until the wedding day ceremonies before you give your fiance's family the sin sod. Any money or property you give your fiance and her family before your wedding day will probably be considered an irrevocable gift. If your fiancée calls off the wedding, you could be left with empty pockets. You can avoid potential marriage scams by giving your bride's family their sin sod on your wedding day."

Bold text implies any gifts after the wedding ARE potentially revoke-able.

And here,

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/ask-a-lawyer/root/marriage-family-inheritance/is-my-thai-wife-entitled-to-the-house

"If you paid for the house through a gift to your wife there could be grounds to revoke your gift or if a prenuptial agreement has been made and the purchase through a gift has been anticipated you could claim for compensation or return of the money expended on the property. You could also argue that the declation signed at the land office is voidable based on section 1469 civil and commercial code."

Protecting yourself, retain evidence of gifts during marriage.

"2 when you buy real estate during the marriage, and you pay for it, put it in writing that the gift for the purchase to your wife is strictly conditional, have her sign this, and register a usufruct over the house

3 keep evidence of all your personal finances and payments you make during the marriage, and if you pay for something expensive in Thailand make it clear that you paid for it with personal money and have your wife sign for this (so it does not become a marital property). Keep for example all documents related to the money transfer into Thailand, and FET form, if any

4 if your Thai wife behaves improperly, like locking you out the house, report this to the police and keep evidence of this as this will benefit you if the divorce becomes contested and goes to court."

Edited June 30, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[hanuman2543]

If I give my wife 10 million baht for her birthday it becomes her money. The land department can ask you to sign what ever paper they like. Even if they found out that you had given her money they could never use the signed paper in a court of law..There is no law to say you cant give money to your wife as a present and she buys land with it. The whole procedure is so ridiculous and pathetic.I would not go as far as to refuse to sign it. But I would take no notice of it. I guess most of you remember Taksins wife giving her brother Bt60 million for his birthday. The court ruled it could not be taxed because it was his money even thougth she transfered to him to avoid yax.

Gifts within a marriage are considered contractual in Thailand.

(In other words, she has to remain your wife to keep them)

On divorce you can ask for all and any gifts to be returned.

(gold, money, land, cars)

The only thing they can keep is sinsot, which is a gift for the parents, not the wife.

What happens with the "Kong mann"?

Sent from my i-mobile IQ XA using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited July 6, 2014 by hanuman2543

[swissie]

If I give my wife 10 million baht for her birthday it becomes her money. The land department can ask you to sign what ever paper they like. Even if they found out that you had given her money they could never use the signed paper in a court of law..There is no law to say you cant give money to your wife as a present and she buys land with it. The whole procedure is so ridiculous and pathetic.I would not go as far as to refuse to sign it. But I would take no notice of it. I guess most of you remember Taksins wife giving her brother Bt60 million for his birthday. The court ruled it could not be taxed because it was his money even thougth she transfered to him to avoid yax.

Gifts within a marriage are considered contractual in Thailand.

(In other words, she has to remain your wife to keep them)

On divorce you can ask for all and any gifts to be returned.

(gold, money, land, cars)

The only thing they can keep is sinsot, which is a gift for the parents, not the wife.

Some time ago, if Farang could prove by cash receipts that he paid for every nail = he had a chance in court. But these days, when Farang has to sign-away his rights from the very beginning, it would kill any "gift-factor", would it not?

Possibly, few Farangs will comprehend the significance of this constellation. This is an essential factor for many a Farangs. This must be clarified beyond any doubt. Once an for all.

Cheers.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

If I give my wife 10 million baht for her birthday it becomes her money. The land department can ask you to sign what ever paper they like. Even if they found out that you had given her money they could never use the signed paper in a court of law..There is no law to say you cant give money to your wife as a present and she buys land with it. The whole procedure is so ridiculous and pathetic.I would not go as far as to refuse to sign it. But I would take no notice of it. I guess most of you remember Taksins wife giving her brother Bt60 million for his birthday. The court ruled it could not be taxed because it was his money even thougth she transfered to him to avoid yax.

Gifts within a marriage are considered contractual in Thailand.

(In other words, she has to remain your wife to keep them)

On divorce you can ask for all and any gifts to be returned.

(gold, money, land, cars)

The only thing they can keep is sinsot, which is a gift for the parents, not the wife.

Some time ago, if Farang could prove by cash receipts that he paid for every nail = he had a chance in court. But these days, when Farang has to sign-away his rights from the very beginning, it would kill any "gift-factor", would it not?

Possibly, few Farangs will comprehend the significance of this constellation. This is an essential factor for many a Farangs. This must be clarified beyond any doubt. Once an for all.

Ethnicity is not relevant to Thai marriage laws.

Edited July 7, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[96tehtarp]

I have been hearing about alien husbands having to sign these forms for years, but I have never actually seen one. My wife has bought/sold land on a few occasions. I have never been required to sign any such document. The only docs I have had to sign have been cosigning on bank loans and when I took an usufruct.

It would be great if someone could provide a link to a scanned copy of one of these statements that foreigners have been required to sign. Perhaps a copy of one has previously been posted and I missed it.

[swissie]

If I give my wife 10 million baht for her birthday it becomes her money. The land department can ask you to sign what ever paper they like. Even if they found out that you had given her money they could never use the signed paper in a court of law..There is no law to say you cant give money to your wife as a present and she buys land with it. The whole procedure is so ridiculous and pathetic.I would not go as far as to refuse to sign it. But I would take no notice of it. I guess most of you remember Taksins wife giving her brother Bt60 million for his birthday. The court ruled it could not be taxed because it was his money even thougth she transfered to him to avoid yax.

Gifts within a marriage are considered contractual in Thailand.

(In other words, she has to remain your wife to keep them)

On divorce you can ask for all and any gifts to be returned.

(gold, money, land, cars)

The only thing they can keep is sinsot, which is a gift for the parents, not the wife.

Some time ago, if Farang could prove by cash receipts that he paid for every nail = he had a chance in court. But these days, when Farang has to sign-away his rights from the very beginning, it would kill any "gift-factor", would it not?

Possibly, few Farangs will comprehend the significance of this constellation. This is an essential factor for many a Farangs. This must be clarified beyond any doubt. Once an for all.

Ethnicity is not relevant to Thai marriage laws.

Nice try, but doesn't answer any of the above. Nevermind, posters in this sub-forum are mainly interested in "hands-on" issues (pipes, toilets, nuts and bolts.) Legal aspects of their stay and investment here, are a mere triviality.

For future reference: TVF has a sub-forum called " Call the lawyer".

Cheers.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I have been hearing about alien husbands having to sign these forms for years, but I have never actually seen one. My wife has bought/sold land on a few occasions. I have never been required to sign any such document. The only docs I have had to sign have been cosigning on bank loans and when I took an usufruct.

It would be great if someone could provide a link to a scanned copy of one of these statements that foreigners have been required to sign. Perhaps a copy of one has previously been posted and I missed it.

Unlikely,

It is signed in the land office, and they take it straight away.

There is no opportunity given to photocopy any of the documents used during a land purchase.

Same with marriage, same with birth.

You only get the completed certificates.

Edited July 7, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[donx]

Because my wife never changed her last name on any of her Thai documents - Thai ID and passport - I have never been asked to sign this form even when I accompanied her to the land office in 2007 in Tha Sala, Nakhon Si Thammarat with 3 kids in tow.

Last year she purchased a townhouse in Ao Nang, Krabi without me and without needing me to sign this document.

This year we obtained Thai ID cards for our daughters and subsequently renewed their Thai passports all with me there to sign as their father and my wife there with her Thai ID without my surname.

I was against my wife not making her Thai documents match her US documents where she uses my surname but I have to admit her approach has worked out well with regards to us purchasing real estate in Thailand.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app