Is pension income subject to Thai income tax?...continued

thailiketoo · July 1, 2014

Actually all money would be taxed by law but the tax policy is that only money brought into Thailand during the current tax year is subject to income tax here (so most people bring in savings).

Second is tax treaty which many countries have with Thailand and this normally provides for foreign tax on foreign pensions.

Third there is no active search for anyone and even those bringing money directly into country are not being asked to pay tax on pension.

Could things change? For sure, nothing is for sure.

re para 1.] savings income (e.g. 800 K from abroad) is income & therefore may be subject to taxation in LOS.

para 2.] most countries on the ball do not have a tax treaty with siam...neither would one save me from being exempt from things like expat (non tax resident) "withholding tax" from the original home nation.

para 3a.] as i'm not omniscient, this is unknown...

para 3b.] resident farangs are required to file & declare all income [e.g. pensions] on their thai tax return...how many expat farang pensioners in siam are doing so or paying tax on their foreign income is unknown and practicly unknowable...though thai lawyers & accountants may have some clues on the topic...They typicly say that farangs living in LOS must file a Thai tax return & declare all worldwide income on it, including pensions.

One could always go to the Thai tax people & ask them. The last time i challenged someone to do so, i never heard back from him. He was quite confident that foreign pensions are not taxed in LOS. So i encouraged him to go to the tax office & ask them. He probably never went since he had never filed a return & was scared to death he'd be in deep doggy doo if he did.

No one else took up my challenge, either, apparently. It's a pity, as that might have been a useful tiny piece of info to fit in the puzzle, in the name of calm objective scientific research.

I hope one day the Bangkok Post (or the like) will thoroughly research this subject & do a series of articles on the topic.

I asked the manager of the Bangkok Bank and he told me no. I asked the manager of the Pension accounts at the Bangkok Bank and she told me no. I live in Thailand and have had a pension in Thailand for a decade. Where do you live? Why are you trying to start a rumor? No one has ever paid income tax on a Farang Pension in Thailand.

A few easy questions. 1. Where do you live? 2. Why have you been posting this same rumor for two years?

3. What do you get out of it?

harrry · July 1, 2014

I thought that is what this thread was about. You would need to file a Thai tax return if you are living off a pension like SS but not if just using your savings?

Under the double tax treaties with several countries pensions paid by governments are taxable only in the home country.

Other sources of income which many refer to as pensions are taxable here for resident (>180 days) as is all income earned overseas but a credit may be obtained for the tax already paid.

Edited July 1, 2014 by harrry

billd766 · July 2, 2014

I always thought that getting a resident visa was very difficult and that most farangs here are on a Non Imm O visa or extension of some kind.

If I don't have a resident visa I cannot legally be classed as a resident therefore the taxation should not apply to me or the rest of us.

It is not income earned in Thailand but income from the UK and taxed at source.

That is my 2 satangs (tax free of course) worth.

harrry · July 2, 2014

I always thought that getting a resident visa was very difficult and that most farangs here are on a Non Imm O visa or extension of some kind.

If I don't have a resident visa I cannot legally be classed as a resident therefore the taxation should not apply to me or the rest of us.

It is not income earned in Thailand but income from the UK and taxed at source.

That is my 2 satangs (tax free of course) worth.

For international taxation purposes you are classified as a resident if you stay 180 days in a year;.You must pay tax on all income both earned here and overseas however you can get a credit for taxes allready paid.

Edited July 2, 2014 by harrry

billd766 · July 2, 2014

I always thought that getting a resident visa was very difficult and that most farangs here are on a Non Imm O visa or extension of some kind.

If I don't have a resident visa I cannot legally be classed as a resident therefore the taxation should not apply to me or the rest of us.

It is not income earned in Thailand but income from the UK and taxed at source.

That is my 2 satangs (tax free of course) worth.

For international taxation purposes you are classified as a resident if you stay 180 days in a year;.You must pay tax on all income both earned here and overseas however you can get a credit for taxes allready paid.

Bugger. I will just have to stay off the radar then.

harrry · July 2, 2014

I always thought that getting a resident visa was very difficult and that most farangs here are on a Non Imm O visa or extension of some kind.

If I don't have a resident visa I cannot legally be classed as a resident therefore the taxation should not apply to me or the rest of us.

It is not income earned in Thailand but income from the UK and taxed at source.

That is my 2 satangs (tax free of course) worth.

For international taxation purposes you are classified as a resident if you stay 180 days in a year;.You must pay tax on all income both earned here and overseas however you can get a credit for taxes allready paid.

Bugger. I will just have to stay off the radar then.

There is an agreement with most countries (I think the UK is one) that Government pensions are only taxed in the paying country.

lopburi3 · July 2, 2014

re para 1.] savings income (e.g. 800 K from abroad) is income & therefore may be subject to taxation in LOS.

para 2.] most countries on the ball do not have a tax treaty with siam...neither would one save me from being exempt from things like expat (non tax resident) "withholding tax" from the original home nation.

para 3a.] as i'm not omniscient, this is unknown...

para 3b.] resident farangs are required to file & declare all income [e.g. pensions] on their thai tax return...how many expat farang pensioners in siam are doing so or paying tax on their foreign income is unknown and practicly unknowable...though thai lawyers & accountants may have some clues on the topic...They typicly say that farangs living in LOS must file a Thai tax return & declare all worldwide income on it, including pensions.

One could always go to the Thai tax people & ask them. The last time i challenged someone to do so, i never heard back from him. He was quite confident that foreign pensions are not taxed in LOS. So i encouraged him to go to the tax office & ask them. He probably never went since he had never filed a return & was scared to death he'd be in deep doggy doo if he did.

No one else took up my challenge, either, apparently. It's a pity, as that might have been a useful tiny piece of info to fit in the puzzle, in the name of calm objective scientific research.

I hope one day the Bangkok Post (or the like) will thoroughly research this subject & do a series of articles on the topic.

There is nothing that makes 800k in bank account income - normally it is considered savings as came from savings outside Thailand.

Countries on the ball indeed do have tax treaty with Thailand - according to Thai tax authorities the current number is 56. What it covers is part of the treaty.

Tax is on income remitted in year earned according to PWC who do know what they are talking about. If you want the Thai Revenue Department take it is "A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand." and they consider it income only in the year earned - after that it is savings.

Naam · July 2, 2014

There is nothing that makes 800k in bank account income - normally it is considered savings as came from savings outside Thailand.

Countries on the ball indeed do have tax treaty with Thailand - according to Thai tax authorities the current number is 56. What it covers is part of the treaty.

Tax is on income remitted in year earned according to PWC who do know what they are talking about. If you want the Thai Revenue Department take it is "A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand." and they consider it income only in the year earned - after that it is savings.

i do not doubt that the procedure / consideration has not changed but still wonder why the part "brought into Thailand the same year it was earned" was deleted last year from the official government publications (both Thai and English).

also... i don't like disclaimers from professionals like this one:

Felt 35 · July 2, 2014

That link is a brief summary. The actual law is here & says "pensions" are income tax "assessible income":

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/37749.0.html#section40

Nonsense.

Do you believe the following is "nonsense"?...

"Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories including any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer."

"(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.^4"

^{http://www.rd.go.th/publish/37749.0.html#section40}

Nonsense. Like I said above, "If you have information Thailand is taxing pensions post it" That means if you know of any farang paying Thai tax on a pension post it. Instead of SH** Stirring.

You have been trying to push this same story for two years why don't you give up?

http://www.thaivisa....nsion-payments/

Easy to shut me up. If you have any information of a Farang paying Thai tax on a pension post it?????

Thailiketoo, take a telephone to the Revenue departments head office Bangkok and ask if you are subject to pay tax on your pension income and you will get the answer

I personally pay tax in Thailand on my pension from abroad. When that said Thailand have still a very lax personal income tax law alias "Thainess voluntary filing if you can, you should"", but except from that the law is clear.

I also believe that when Thailand have reformed and streamlined the taxation system for their own citizens we foreign pensioners will be no exception I don't want to go into the "covered under savings from last year" hypothesis but its just to thin.....IMO

thailiketoo · July 2, 2014

Do you believe the following is "nonsense"?...

"Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories including any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer."

"(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.^4"

^{http://www.rd.go.th/publish/37749.0.html#section40}

Nonsense. Like I said above, "If you have information Thailand is taxing pensions post it" That means if you know of any farang paying Thai tax on a pension post it. Instead of SH** Stirring.

You have been trying to push this same story for two years why don't you give up?

http://www.thaivisa....nsion-payments/

Easy to shut me up. If you have any information of a Farang paying Thai tax on a pension post it?????

Thailiketoo, take a telephone to the Revenue departments head office Bangkok and ask if you are subject to pay tax on your pension income and you will get the answer

I personally pay tax in Thailand on my pension from abroad. When that said Thailand have still a very lax personal income tax law alias "Thainess voluntary filing if you can, you should"", but except from that the law is clear.

I also believe that when Thailand have reformed and streamlined the taxation system for their own citizens we foreign pensioners will be no exception I don't want to go into the "covered under savings from last year" hypothesis but its just to thin.....IMO

Roughly what was your total income in Thailand? Was your pension your only income? Did you mean to say you paid tax on your income earned in Thailand and your pension was a part of that income? What country is the pension from (perhaps no agreement for no tax)?

Edited July 2, 2014 by thailiketoo

oldthaihand99 · July 2, 2014

There is nothing that makes 800k in bank account income - normally it is considered savings as came from savings outside Thailand.

Countries on the ball indeed do have tax treaty with Thailand - according to Thai tax authorities the current number is 56. What it covers is part of the treaty.

Tax is on income remitted in year earned according to PWC who do know what they are talking about. If you want the Thai Revenue Department take it is "A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand." and they consider it income only in the year earned - after that it is savings.

Re para 1...Thai tax law considers the 800K as income if it comes under the definition of "assessible income" in Thai tax law. [see the url i posted earlier in the thread.]. That pretty much covers any money one has. It also means it may be taxable in Thailand. What you want to call it, whether "savings" or whatever, is irrelevant. It's what Thai tax law calls it that matters.

para 2...after that 56 it leaves the rest of some 200 nations on the globe with no such treaty.

para 3...the law itself as it reads (see url above) does not include the condition of the income being brought in "only in the year earned". Online Thai tax lawyers i've seen are divided re that phrase as well; some simply state that the income is taxable in Siam in the year it is brought into Thailand (regardless of when it was earned).

BTW, there is the additional related problem of 'proving' that one brought in funds earned in a previous year. One Thai lawyer site i read spoke of the need for being careful to separate ones finances for this purpose.

Bottom line: all this confusion & obstacles do not earn my trust or encourage me to seek to live in LOS as a "tax resident", but only as a non resident (under 50% of 365 days per year).

oldthaihand99 · July 2, 2014

i do not doubt that the procedure / consideration has not changed but still wonder why the part "brought into Thailand the same year it was earned" was deleted last year from the official government publications (both Thai and English).

Does that include "publications" like this:

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/37749.0.html#section40

It looks like the "part" you refer to is still there, or at least can be assumed or infered from section 41, where it says:

"A resident of Thailand who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assessable income into Thailand, pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part."

Naam · July 2, 2014

i do not doubt that the procedure / consideration has not changed but still wonder why the part "brought into Thailand the same year it was earned" was deleted last year from the official government publications (both Thai and English).

Does that include "publications" like this:

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/37749.0.html#section40

It looks like the "part" you refer to is still there, or at least can be assumed or infered from section 41, where it says:

"A resident of Thailand who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assessable income into Thailand, pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part."

where in this publication is a reference to "brought into Thailand the same year as earned"?

oldthaihand99 · July 2, 2014

i do not doubt that the procedure / consideration has not changed but still wonder why the part "brought into Thailand the same year it was earned" was deleted last year from the official government publications (both Thai and English).

Does that include "publications" like this:

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/37749.0.html#section40

It looks like the "part" you refer to is still there, or at least can be assumed or infered from section 41, where it says:

"A resident of Thailand who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assessable income into Thailand, pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part."

where in this publication is a reference to "brought into Thailand the same year as earned"?

So you're saying those 'exact words' were removed last year (in 2013). Can you reference an online source to such an older version that included that exact phrase? Here is one that was linked to at post 19 of the forum below, back in 2012, that does not contain the phrase, though perhaps it has been updated since then, as i see no date of the year on it or the page it appears on:

<<<< Link to another forum removed >>>>

http://www.samuiforsale.com/table/law-texts/

"Note: English translations of the original Thai law texts are prepared for reference purposes only. Only the Thai script versions, as published in the royal Thai government gazette....shall have legal force in Thailand."

http://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/the-thailand-revenue-code.html#3

Edited July 2, 2014 by metisdead

Naam · July 2, 2014

So you're saying those 'exact words' were removed last year (in 2013). Can you reference an online source to such an older version that included that exact phrase? Here is one that was linked to at post 19 of the forum below, back in 2012, that does not contain the phrase, though perhaps it has been updated since then, as i see no date of the year on it or the page it appears on: <snip>

i am trying to find the "old" version which was also discussed on Thaivisa a few years ago but referring only to government publications. both Thai and English version as well as their URLs were posted by TV-member "Samran".

this was a part of http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html but has now disappeared. the latter i detected in 2013 but it could have been deleted earlier.

Individuals residing for 180 days or more in Thailand for any cal-

endar year are also subject to income tax on income from foreign

sources if that income is brought into Thailand during the same

taxable year that they are a resident.

Naam · July 2, 2014

if you google "if that income is brought into Thailand during the same taxable year that they are a resident." you get these results:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=if+that+income+is+brought+into+Thailand+during+the+same+taxable+year+that+they+are+a+resident.&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=not+filtered+by+licence

pmarlin · July 2, 2014

This applies to Americans and I'm sure other countries have similar treaties with Thailand.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thailand.pdf

pmarlin · July 2, 2014

and this pertains to Americans

http://www.thailawforum.com/articles/taxleeds.html

pmarlin · July 2, 2014

and this pertains to Americans

http://www.thailawforum.com/articles/taxleeds.html

From the linked article

Pensions, Social Security Payments, Annuities, Alimony and Child Support

Article 20 covers four types of payments which share the trait that they are typically paid or received by individuals as personal items. Pensions, social security payments, annuities, alimony and child support payments paid to the resident of a contracting state shall be taxable only in the state where they arise.(39)

thailiketoo · July 2, 2014

and this pertains to Americans

http://www.thailawforum.com/articles/taxleeds.html

From the linked article

Pensions, Social Security Payments, Annuities, Alimony and Child Support

Article 20 covers four types of payments which share the trait that they are typically paid or received by individuals as personal items. Pensions, social security payments, annuities, alimony and child support payments paid to the resident of a contracting state shall be taxable only in the state where they arise.(39)

ARTICLE 20

Pensions and Social Security Payment

1. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 21 (Government Service), pensions and other

similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall

be taxable only in that State.

2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, social security benefits and other similar public

pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the

United States shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State.

Edited July 2, 2014 by thailiketoo

kjetil · July 2, 2014

Yes Norwegian pensioners have to pay tax of their pension, i am one of the falang taxpayers in Thailand.

Naam · July 3, 2014

Yes Norwegian pensioners have to pay tax of their pension, i am one of the falang taxpayers in Thailand.

are you paying in Norway or in Thailand?

kjetil · July 3, 2014

In Thailand

pmarlin · July 3, 2014

Thai tax treaties with other nations

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/766.0.html

Naam · July 3, 2014

Thai tax treaties with other nations

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/766.0.html

excellent information. thanks for the link!

pmarlin · July 3, 2014

Yes Norwegian pensioners have to pay tax of their pension, i am one of the falang taxpayers in Thailand.

This might interest you

http://download.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/Norwegian_answer.pdf

billd766 · July 3, 2014

I always thought that getting a resident visa was very difficult and that most farangs here are on a Non Imm O visa or extension of some kind.

If I don't have a resident visa I cannot legally be classed as a resident therefore the taxation should not apply to me or the rest of us.

It is not income earned in Thailand but income from the UK and taxed at source.

That is my 2 satangs (tax free of course) worth.

For international taxation purposes you are classified as a resident if you stay 180 days in a year;.You must pay tax on all income both earned here and overseas however you can get a credit for taxes allready paid.

Bugger. I will just have to stay off the radar then.

There is an agreement with most countries (I think the UK is one) that Government pensions are only taxed in the paying country.

Truth be known I would rather pay tax in Thailand as I would pay less.

harrry · July 3, 2014

There is an agreement with most countries (I think the UK is one) that Government pensions are only taxed in the paying country.

Truth be known I would rather pay tax in Thailand as I would pay less.

Well you are in luck:) I was wrong, you have to pay the tax here not there.

Krataiboy · September 3, 2014

I hate to tell you guys, but I'm pretty sure SnowBird is right. He is stating what I was told by some pretty clued-up accountants before I came out here yonks ago. They even told me to keep separate capital and current accounts and to make sure any money I brought in was from my capital, not current account.

So far, the Thai tax authorities have turned a blind eye to the fact that they can demand tax from us, despite the fact that we have already been taxed on our pensions in the UK. Perhaps they are being kind. Or maybe they fear an exodus if they, er, clamped down. But as we have just seen in respect of visas, etc, times and regimes change, so it is best to be prudent.

What IS worrying, to me at least, is that the possibility of us being taxed here exists alongside the near certainty that Osborne's plan to tax all non-resident UK pensioners on the full amount of their pension, instead of anything over and above the current 10,000 pound tax free allowance that applies at present, will eventually come to fruition.

That would be a grievous double whammy.

The Chancellor's controversial proposal is still in the consultation stage but may well be approved unless enough of us express our dismay at its repercussions for many thousands of UK retirees resident overseas, large numbers of whom could probably not afford to return to their homeland permanently.

Sorry to be the harbinger of yet more gloom! Get on to your MP now!!

Krataiboy · September 4, 2014

In Thailand

Are the Norwegian tax authorities also deducting tax from your pension?

Sign In

Is pension income subject to Thai income tax?...continued

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