Bodies of three missing teens found in West Bank - reports

[simple1]

Not being dishonest, actual quotes made in private

Yes, dishonest or you actually believe the lies that you read on the Internet. You mean "actual quotes" like THIS one:

A quote from Ben-Gurion in a letter to his son "we must expel the Arabs and take their place".

The actual quote:

We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai, Ben Gurion: The Burning Ground; and Karsh, Efraim (2000), Fabricating Israeli History: The 'New Historians'; this has been extensively misquoted as "[We] must expel Arabs and take their places" after appearing in this form in Morris, Benny (1987), The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947–1949, Cambridge University Press, p. 25.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

OK sourcing quotes from the internet. “Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country”. This quote appears to contradict some posters view that the State of Israel was not carved out of the indigenous Arab territory.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion#Quotes

The original letter, to his son, translated into English, someone will probably dispute the accuracy, whilst he wishes for good relations with the Arabs, leaves no doubt of intention. E.g. “what we really want is not that the land remain whole and unified. What we want is that the whole and unified land be Jewish. A unified Eretz Israeli would be no source of satisfaction for me, if I were Arab”.

Translated letter in full at:

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/03/we-must-expel-arabs-and-take-their-place-institute-for-palestine-studies-publishes-1937-ben-gurion-letter-advocating-the-expulsion-of-palestinians.html

You OK with this?

[Morch]

...

The Apartheid and Nazi references, although popular, do not necessarily amount to a correct reflection of things. While they do

make for catchy headlines and slogans, they are still hyperbole.

...

Indeed. You put that too diplomatically though, I think. Accusing Jews of being Nazis is part of a well known CODE.

What I am referring to is practice of punishing whole communities for actions of a few that may be from that community. If they had all those arrests, shouldn't they be able to find the culprits? Sorry to say the kidnapping achieved it's goals of making it even less likely two sides can talk to each other. There are plenty in Palestine and Israel who don't want to see that happen. Here's a dream: Hamas says sorry it happened under our watch, and we will help catch criminals. Israel says will treat this as a crime, and apologize for killing 10 Palestinians for every Israels and will no longer use those draconian tactics.

Collective punishment, while wrong, does not quite merit comparison to Apartheid or Nazis.

In most cases, Israeli security forces do have leads or their response time being quick they can figure out things faster. In this case, kidnappers managed to "stay under the radar" and initial response went wrong (detailed in previous posts), hence kidnappers got a head start on investigators. Normally, while arrests are often made, they are indeed not quite on the scale seen this time around. Different circumstances.

The focus was on reaching the kidnapped, not on winning hears and minds. Time and place for everything - don't think that when the clock ticks most security agencies in similar situations act that much differently.

Dreaming is fine, and visioning a better life for both sides is to be commended. Then there are some harsh realities that cannot be ignored or be glossed over.

[Morch]

Nonsense. Conspiracy theory stuff. If he wanted to get rid of them, how do you explain the fact that 20% of the country are Palestinian Arabs with the same rights as Jewish citizens? Israel beat the Arabs overwhelmingly over and over again and if they wanted to drive all the Arabs out, they would be long gone.

Another quote from your friend Ben.....

“Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs, We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion, quoted in “The Jewish Paradox” by Nathan Goldman, former president of the World Jewish Congress.

Conspiracy theory....... yea, right, these are ALL Jewish authors, many from Israel, most well known. We really aren't talking about the Arabs in Israel are we, we are talking about Palestine, not the same and they don't have the same rights as the Arabs in Israel.

If I may interject on this interesting, though off-topic discussion: The question of sources, interpretations and bias is an open one, sometimes interesting enough by itself to rival the details. Without getting overly involved, may I suggest that arguments referring to the nationality/religion/ethnicity of authors is more complicated than simply stating the obvious. For a more details review, read here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians

This is a good stepping stone (albeit a very short version, checking out link to historians mentioned would provide a better picture) for anyone interested in learning a little more about these debates. Interesting to note that some of the historians relevant to the discussion have revised their view, to a degree, over the years. So sometimes (perhaps Benny Morris is a good example of this) could seem to be contradictory. Add to the fray some authors with well documented biases in general (Norman Finkelstein comes to mind) and the personal rivalry between some of them - more muddled than it seems.

As for Ben Gurion - there's a saying BG used to document every flitting thought that crossed his mind. As in what I mentioned above - worthwhile to note when a certain quote was made, and in which context. There could certainly be conflicting ideas in his writing and opinions, this is nothing new. He was also known for being a pragmatist on some things, and stone hard on others - quite an interesting man, if not easy to understand.

On a personal level, I think most of this discussion (which replicates itself in Israeli/Palestinian talks) does not promote the chances of anything ever being resolved. Less "who started it" and more "how to end it" - this what the region needs.

Very true, but it's an interesting discussion. Hopefully the Mods will permit the ongoing conversations as so far relatively curteous.

Terribly tragic for the murdered teenagers, their families and friends. As someone highlighted equally so for those on the other side of the divide for the innocents who have been killed.

Would be more interesting to see a topic trying to present possible realistic solutions to this conflict, without getting too riled up and digging scraps and bits from both sides history to justify their current positions.

The TVF Middle East peace conference topic....

[Scott]

Some off-topic posts and replies have been deleted. A lot more should be deleted. If you wish to have off-topic discussions, please keep it civil.

[Ulysses G.]

The original letter, to his son, translated into English, someone will probably dispute the accuracy, whilst he wishes for good relations with the Arabs, leaves no doubt of intention. E.g. what we really want is not that the land remain whole and unified. What we want is that the whole and unified land be Jewish. A unified Eretz Israeli would be no source of satisfaction for me, if I were Arab.

Translated letter in full at:

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/03/we-must-expel-arabs-and-take-their-place-institute-for-palestine-studies-publishes-1937-ben-gurion-letter-advocating-the-expulsion-of-palestinians.html

You OK with this?

I don't get that as he seems to go back and forth on what he wants. Basically he was just fantasizing about his hope for the future in a private letter. However, there is no getting around the fact that 1/5 of the country is Arab. He asked for it and he allowed it. Actions speak louder than words, but his words - at least in public - backed his actions up.

[Ulysses G.]

Would be more interesting to see a topic trying to present possible realistic solutions to this conflict, without getting too riled up and digging scraps and bits from both sides history to justify their current positions.

The TVF Middle East peace conference topic....

Sounds great, but there is only one realistic solution. Both sides have to sign a peace treaty and stick to its terms and only one side has refused to do that over and over again for six decades. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

[Morch]

Would be more interesting to see a topic trying to present possible realistic solutions to this conflict, without getting too riled up and digging scraps and bits from both sides history to justify their current positions.

The TVF Middle East peace conference topic....

Sounds great, but there is only one realistic solution. Both sides have to sign a peace treaty and stick to its terms and only one side has refused to do that over and over again for six decades. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Well, we've been over this a few times - so you probably know that my position is that the "no partner" stance is only partially correct. But again, this might be carrying this topic too far away from the OP. Mostly, I think that both sides are obsessed with being right, rather than being smart.

As for my post, was wondering, as a mental exercise, if even theoretical "negotiations" on this matter could go anywhere on a forum largely detached from the conflict.

[JohnnyJazz]

This video is about a christian family kicked out of their land, the land that belongs to this family for generation, by jewish settlers. You can clearly hear the young thug saying : " You and your f_cking Jesus can kiss my ass" "we killed Jesus, we are proud of it". No further comment needed.

Edited July 2, 2014 by JohnnyJazz

[Ulysses G.]

I'm pretty sure that there are jerks in Israel, just like every place else, but what does that have to do with with three kidnapped and murdered boys?

[philw]

The Israeli methods have been brutal and has done nothing but create more terrorist who only dream of their destruction. FACT

You can white wash it anyway you want Ulysses, but you can't change history.

FACT: The Israeli methods have been no more brutal than their enemies - but you want to overlook that.

FACT: Israel is still there and thriving. The Palestinians are only DREAMING of their destruction. They have only been DREAMING about getting rid of the Jews for more than 100 years and are no closer than they were then. In fact they are worse off. They are stateless due to their own efforts and the Jews have their own country.

I am not the one trying to change history. You are.

Propagandistic crap.

[Ulysses G.]

I am well aware that you prefer the kind of propaganda that Diablo Bob is peddling.

[Scott]

Inflammatory post deleted. Please stay on topic.

[Diablo Bob]

I am well aware that you prefer the kind of propaganda that Diablo Bob is peddling.

Unlike you Ulysses, I recognize that there are two sides to every story, I am just here to give the other side a voice. In reality, you are the propogandest (Sp.?), you have become the FOX news of Thai Visa.

Some of your points have been very valid, while others are like a blind man describing a sunset, not accurate or misleading...... open your eyes to both sides not just a singular view.

[Steely Dan]

I'm pretty sure that there are jerks in Israel, just like every place else, but what does that have to do with with three kidnapped and murdered boys?

And perhaps the professional dirt diggers would like to comment on the fact that the Christian population in Israel has gone up fourfold since 1948 as oppose to every other Country in the Middle East where it's in steep decline. Any mistreatment encountered by Christians in Israel pales into insignificance compared to all her neighbors, but that's a fact lost to those peddling their own agenda.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Ulysses G.]

In reality, you are the propogandest

Sorry, but both of us have taken a side and most of what you are posting is totally distorted nonsense that you got from some nutty site on the Internet. I'm posting mostly hard facts, that can be found in any legitimate history book. If you don't realize that, you have a lot more problems than I do.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[NeverSure]

Only 75% of the population of Israel is Jewish. 17% is Muslim.

Let's see a Muslim country allow that kind of religious freedom to Jews (or Christians.)

LINK

[JohnnyJazz]

I'm pretty sure that there are jerks in Israel, just like every place else, but what does that have to do with with three kidnapped and murdered boys?

And perhaps the professional dirt diggers would like to comment on the fact that the Christian population in Israel has gone up fourfold since 1948 as oppose to every other Country in the Middle East where it's in steep decline. Any mistreatment encountered by Christians in Israel pales into insignificance compared to all her neighbors, but that's a fact lost to those peddling their own agenda.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnPc38P6WbA

[NeverSure]

I'm pretty sure that there are jerks in Israel, just like every place else, but what does that have to do with with three kidnapped and murdered boys?

And perhaps the professional dirt diggers would like to comment on the fact that the Christian population in Israel has gone up fourfold since 1948 as oppose to every other Country in the Middle East where it's in steep decline. Any mistreatment encountered by Christians in Israel pales into insignificance compared to all her neighbors, but that's a fact lost to those peddling their own agenda.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnPc38P6WbA

60 Minutes.

Every Jew I know, knows that Christians are the best friends they have in the world. Although the religions differ greatly, they both have the same Old Testament which elevates Jews as a people.

There are good and bad people in every country, and count on 60 Minutes to find the minutia which furthers its wacko agenda.

[Steely Dan]

Let those with an agenda wallow in their own filth, there is no evidence whatsoever to even begin to support an equivalence argument between Israeli and Muslim Arab treatment of Christians, indeed how many Israeli Arabs would give up their citizenship in exchange for one with the Palestinian authority?

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4351/palestinians-pope-visit

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[JDGRUEN]

They look like they were decent kids, no doubt anger and emotions are running high, but in my country we hold trials and allow the accused and the prosecution to present evidence. If the evidence is sufficient to warrant a conviction then, and only then, do we exact punishment on the guilty party.

That is what we call "The rule of law".

We don't retaliate through sanctioned military force against anyone loosely affiliated with the accused.

That is not justice.

My sympathies to the boys families.

Except for Mexico we don't have a war zone around the U.S. on all our borders as Israel does. Israel is responding as a country would that is involved in an actual war - not what would be done in peacetime as peacetime does not exist on Israel's borders. Israel is involved in a smoldering war that for all intents and purposes has never stopped. Police actions in a smoldering war with a neighbor is not conducted in a civilian manner.

Note: Mexico is at war with itself making the U.S. border with Mexico almost as dangerous a place to be as Gaza or the West Bank.

[Ulysses G.]

Israel is responding as a country would that is involved in an actual war - not what would be done in peacetime as peacetime does not exist on Israel's borders. Israel is involved in a smoldering war that for all intents and purposes has never stopped.

Exactly right. The Palestinians have declared themselves Israel's enemies and have been waging war on them since long before Israel was even founded. As long as they keep up the hostilities and refuse peace deal after peace deal, they are to to blame for the unpleasant consequences.

[Diablo Bob]

Israel is responding as a country would that is involved in an actual war - not what would be done in peacetime as peacetime does not exist on Israel's borders. Israel is involved in a smoldering war that for all intents and purposes has never stopped.

Exactly right. The Palestinians have declared themselves Israel's enemies and have been waging war on them since long before Israel was even founded. As long as they keep up the hostilities and refuse peace deal after peace deal, they are to to blame for the unpleasant consequences.

Be honest, both sides are to blame.

Interesting read, from an unbiased source: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oslo/negotiations/

[JohnnyJazz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnPc38P6WbA

60 Minutes.

Every Jew I know, knows that Christians are the best friends they have in the world. Although the religions differ greatly, they both have the same Old Testament which elevates Jews as a people.

There are good and bad people in every country, and count on 60 Minutes to find the minutia which furthers its wacko agenda.

555 The bias of the foreign press ... So "deja vu"

For your information, Don Hewitt creator of 60 mn was jewish and so was Mike Wallace most famous 60 mn reporter. Furthermore we are not talking about jews but about Israel. Calling critics of Israel antisemitics is like calling critics of the apartheid white people haters. Total non sense.

[JDGRUEN]

If Israel stopped defending itself ... Israel would not exist in six months... If the Arabs stopped attacking Israel there would be peace in the region in six months... That is the difference folks... and those silly people who want to compare Israel to South Africa of the past are delusional.

Israel holds lands taken in war - war started by various Arab countries - lands taken in war by the defender who took the land as a part of being attacked several times by warring Arab nations does not have to be given back. That land is now a buffer against the same warring nations and peoples who will not stop their aggression.

There was never a country called Palestine.

Israel makes the price very high for kidnapping and killing its citizens ... stop killing and kidnapping Israelis and stop rocketing Israel and the retaliation will stop.

But the single minded jihadis won't stop killing, kidnapping and rocketing because they do not want peace and coexistence ... they do not really want a Palestinian state - the Islamist want the state of Israel annihilated.

[Ulysses G.]

Israel is responding as a country would that is involved in an actual war - not what would be done in peacetime as peacetime does not exist on Israel's borders. Israel is involved in a smoldering war that for all intents and purposes has never stopped.

Exactly right. The Palestinians have declared themselves Israel's enemies and have been waging war on them since long before Israel was even founded. As long as they keep up the hostilities and refuse peace deal after peace deal, they are to to blame for the unpleasant consequences.

Be honest, both sides are to blame.

Interesting read, from an unbiased source: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oslo/negotiations/

PBS is hardly "unbiased". They are the same liberals that fired liberal pundit Juan Williams for admitting that he got worried when flying on a plane with Muslims. PBS tries to insinuate that the blame was shared and the peace deal would not have happened because Sharon took over as Prime Minister, but that is pure speculation. There is no evidence of this. In fact, he is the one that eventually initiated the Israeli disengagement from Gaza and evicted Israeli citizens who refused to accept government compensation packages and voluntarily vacate their homes. He took a lot of heat for that. The real reason that the peace process ended was Palestinian suicide bombings:

The Palestinian intifada's cycle of violence continued and escalated. On March 29, 2002, after a suicide bomber killed 30 people, Israel launched Operation Defensive Shield. Israel's troops re-entered Palestinian cities and refugee camps, hunting down terrorists and often leaving massive destruction in their wake.

Three months later, in mid-June 2002, two more suicide bombings struck Israel. Sharon announced Israel would immediately begin a policy of taking back land in the West Bank, and holding it, until the terror attacks stopped.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

For your information, Don Hewitt creator of 60 mn was jewish and so was Mike Wallace most famous 60 mn reporter.

So what? Plenty of Jews have different opinions of just about everything and that includes the Jews in Israel. Just because a "Jew" says something makes no difference at all.

[NeverSure]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnPc38P6WbA

60 Minutes.

Every Jew I know, knows that Christians are the best friends they have in the world. Although the religions differ greatly, they both have the same Old Testament which elevates Jews as a people.

There are good and bad people in every country, and count on 60 Minutes to find the minutia which furthers its wacko agenda.

555 The bias of the foreign press ... So "deja vu"

For your information, Don Hewitt creator of 60 mn was jewish and so was Mike Wallace most famous 60 mn reporter. Furthermore we are not talking about jews but about Israel. Calling critics of Israel antisemitics is like calling critics of the apartheid white people haters. Total non sense.

We are talking about Jews. This is a purely religious conflict. Unlike the Jews, Islamic terrorists are determined to destroy everyone who isn't an Islamist. Jews allow religious freedom, even having 17% of Israel's population be free to practice the Muslim religion. There's your difference.

In particular, Israel is sitting on three sites which are "holy" to both Islam and Judaism. Islamists would kill everyone in Israel to get them. Israel took them in 1967 as spoils of the Six Day War. Israel owned them until about 2,000 years ago when they were run out of their historic land. Now they have them back.

There's no sharing or compromising with Islamic extremists, and how anyone can defend them or even pretend to see "their side" of things is beyond me.

[Diablo Bob]

Israel is responding as a country would that is involved in an actual war - not what would be done in peacetime as peacetime does not exist on Israel's borders. Israel is involved in a smoldering war that for all intents and purposes has never stopped.

Exactly right. The Palestinians have declared themselves Israel's enemies and have been waging war on them since long before Israel was even founded. As long as they keep up the hostilities and refuse peace deal after peace deal, they are to to blame for the unpleasant consequences.

Be honest, both sides are to blame.

Interesting read, from an unbiased source: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oslo/negotiations/

PBS is hardly "unbiased". They are the same liberals that fired liberal pundit Juan Williams for admitting that he got worried when flying on a plane with Muslims. PBS tries to insinuate that the blame was shared and the peace deal would not have happened because Sharon took over as Prime Minister, but that is pure speculation. There is no evidence of this. In fact, he is the one that eventually initiated the Israeli disengagement from Gaza and evicted Israeli citizens who refused to accept government compensation packages and voluntarily vacate their homes. He took a lot of heat for that. The real reason that the peace process ended was Palestinian suicide bombings:

The Palestinian intifada's cycle of violence continued and escalated. On March 29, 2002, after a suicide bomber killed 30 people, Israel launched Operation Defensive Shield. Israel's troops re-entered Palestinian cities and refugee camps, hunting down terrorists and often leaving massive destruction in their wake.

Three months later, in mid-June 2002, two more suicide bombings struck Israel. Sharon announced Israel would immediately begin a policy of taking back land in the West Bank, and holding it, until the terror attacks stopped.

It is obvious that any source that I use will be biased in your eyes, unless it agrees with your point of view. That being said, let's try another of my biased sources:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine

Edited July 3, 2014 by Diablo Bob

[Ulysses G.]

It is obvious that any source that I use will be biased in your eyes, unless it agrees with your point of view.

It is not only about bias. Everyone is biased including reporters. It is that you expect me to accept their conclusions and I know enough about the situation to see the flaws in their logic.

We can trade news stories all day, that are biased in both directions, but anyone who can say that there was never a Jewish Palestine, that everything was quite peaceful in the Palestine area up until 1948 and that there was no Palestinian Arab terrorism before then, simply does not know what they are talking about, when it comes to this issue, and you tried to claim all three of these things.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Diablo Bob]

It is obvious that any source that I use will be biased in your eyes, unless it agrees with your point of view.

It is not only about bias. Everyone is biased including reporters. It is that you expect me to accept their conclusions and I know enough about the situation to see the flaws in their logic.

We can trade news stories all day, that are biased in both directions, but anyone who can say that there was never a Jewish Palestine, that everything was quite peaceful in the Palestine area up until 1948 and that there was no Palestinian Arab terrorism before then, simply does not know what they are talking about, when it comes to this issue, and you tried to claim all three of these things.

I said nothing......

The arcticles I posted were not written by me. In one instance I erred and admitted to it, I will apologize again.

Just giving the other side of the story, something that you don't recognize.