The Hired man

[canuckamuck]

The challenges of cross cultural working arrangements have been discussed many times, but I haven't seen a thread relating specifically to the farm worker. In the city if you are running a business you would likely have more of a choice of potential workers and be able to hone your staff down to people you can work with more easily. But out on the farm, and specifically if you are a long way from a population center. You really have to make do with who you can get.

Over the last 4 years I have had many workers for different periods of time. Some of these experiences have been very good, and some have been maddening. When we started out we used mostly family members. We decided to never do that again. the problem with brothers and sisters working for you is you can't fire them, you just hope they go away (at least that was our situation). We are living in the family house, so they had every right to do as they pleased even though we were paying them to be there. The problem is that they were undependable and made there own decisions which were usually detrimental to our plans.

We actually had a brother in law that setup his own business selling ice cream at the school while he worked for us and he was actually competing against my wife who was selling cold drinks at the school. and we were paying him to do it. It started out as a sideline for him when it was his turn to sell drinks, but eventually he was only selling ice cream and we were losing money on the drinks. It gets complicated when it is a Thai family. I fired him though.

Now we usually have a full time girl to help around the house and with the 5 kids. And I often hire people by the job for projects.

The main problem I have had with my workers is that they give you every indication that they understand what you want or said (I can give instructions in Thai) but they often completely misunderstand and go off and make their best guess. Assumptions seem to be a replacement for logic here. Some of my workers have also had no problem in changing my instructions based on what they would do. This is always bad. I often find with construction jobs the guys that have a little experience will have one way of doing things and they will try to stop you from doing it differently, as if for your own good. Their best way to go, always takes the least amount of effort and material. We all know how that usually ends up.

.

My current thinking is that I need to learn how to get things done my way without being the angry farang. I have tried all sorts of experiments in management techniques. I even thought I was really getting somewhere with the last guy. But it turns out I still don't get it. For example if you give clear instructions for something to be done and they do something else, or don't do it at all. How do you tell them they got it wrong without embarrassing them and having a big pout session. Where I come from the boss would have no problem tearing me a new one in front of everyone. I know that can't happen here, but still the time comes where you have to tell them they screwed up.

For me nearly every time I have done this I have made things worse and created an angry worker or I had to find a new one. And I am a very easy going guy. So easy going that my wife is offended by it. Her advice is to not be nice to them ever. But I have had no luck with that route.

I have tried being the fun boss, the serious boss, the boss that just checks in and gives instructions, and the boss that gets right in and gets dirty with the guys. Usually it all goes pear shaped.

My last experience, I had a young guy and his wife working for us. They were supposed to be permanent. Actually we only wanted the girl, but they were newlyweds and he wanted to be with her, so we set it up that she looks after the kids and he would work with me, for about 50% more than we were going to pay her individually. The guy turned out to be energetic and had quite good English. And the first couple of weeks went pretty good. Except for the fact that he was a real kiss ass. Constantly telling me how smart, strong, and young looking, I was. He was also always trying to ascertain what things I had around that I might give to him. That is annoying.

Anyhow we got into a really big project here I had to hire more guys. It was my idea that he would be my manager and he could keep the team working while I could do other things occasionally. He loved this. If we were all out there together he would constantly engage me in conversations which he would then interpret. Because he loved to demonstrate his English skills. But unfortunately when those other guys were around he became so self absorbed that he just wouldn't listen to anything.

I fixed up one of our old bikes, so he wouldn't have to use his nice one to go to the field every day. He drove it once to the field where it ran out of gas (he said). I think he was embarrassed to be riding the old bike. Anyhow, I told him to put gas in the bike and bring it home. he acted like he didn't hear me. And this happened for 10 days in a row. He just wouldn't acknowledge this request.

so on the tenth day, when I am really busy trying to get out the door to go town. He tells me he lost the keys to his own bike and he can't get to the field. He didn't actually he just wanted to use my dirt bike, like he did last time I went to town (he didn't ask either).

I wasn't buying in to his crap so I started to tell him that I had told him over and over to get that other bike home, and at the same time tried to hand him the gas can. Well he walked right past me mid sentence and started yapping to the other guys.

So at this point I am smoking out my ears and I tried my best not to be that angry farang. So I didn't go after him; I went back to the house. Unfortunately I also threw the gas can and slammed the door.

This was all it took I guess. By the time I got to Chiang Rai he had phoned my wife and told her he quit and the other workers were going to quit too. The other workers didn't quit, they are happy here. But he quit and he took his wife too, which was problematic because there are 4 kids at home and my wife is in the hospital with another one. I was given no notice of course.

Anyhow, I am back to square one and still don't know how to play this game.

Any thoughts.

Edited July 5, 2014 by canuckamuck

[cdmtdm]

i feel your pain , sounds like my last seven years wrapped up very nicely ... imo the answer is evolution and as we know evolution takes a very longtime ...you can dress a monkey in a suit but its still a monkey .... it will not improve for a very longtime ...

[somo]

I only pay for specific jobs (mostly to do with cassava farming) and pretty much know what they should cost.

Don't get into relationships and assigning responsibility.

I would never employ someone permanently as that is asking for trouble.

Never trust someone to supervise others it is also asking for trouble.

There is no way you can get involved in all the rivalries you know nothing about so just pay day by day for what you need doing.

200/day in my village will get someone to what's needed.

[cooked]

Oh, still my heart, I feel for you! To a certain extent I had the same problems back home, for a few years I had 10 employees, I was buzzing around like a blue arsed fly as this sometimes meant I had 4 teams working and they were always forgetting tools or having problems. Here, things take on a new dimension as you slowly realise that most of the yokels think they know better than you. Refusal to use a wheel barrow, a shovel, a concrete mixer, a concrete vibrator, any concrete that isn't of the consistency of soup. And I do mean outright refusal. I can just about work with the son in law but at the age of 66 have recently realised that when I get to an age where I can no longer do heavy work, everything will grind to a stop here.

I recently had two guys who were, as I thought, taking a well earned break in the shade, run away when I came back home, they had made a complete shambles of what was a simple job and that I had gone to a load of trouble to be conciliatory and clear about. They had actually been waiting for me to go off so that they could do it the only right way, which is the Thai way. They did more in those 90 minutes than they had all afternoon.

That was the first time that I really lost my temper in Thailand, I had to go and find them, my wife picked up an iron bar and the son in law came running over. He doesn't have to shout, he is an impressive kind of guy.

Oh well, a good rant now and again does you good I am told.

[canuckamuck]

Here, things take on a new dimension as you slowly realise that most of the yokels think they know better than you. Refusal to use a wheel barrow, a shovel, a concrete mixer, a concrete vibrator, any concrete that isn't of the consistency of soup. And I do mean outright refusal. I can just about work with the son in law but at the age of 66 have recently realised that when I get to an age where I can no longer do heavy work, everything will grind to a stop here

I really identify with this. I have had the same experiences. I had a guy who had simple job of moving a dirt pile. I gave him a new wheel barrow, and he tried it once and then told me it was no good. He then went got some sacks and hauled dirt by sack, in the afternoon he brought a friend to help. It was probably a one hour job, that took them all day.

I brought home a cement mixer and my inlaws were very happy to see it because they were about to build a house on the same yard. But when time came to build the all concrete house an older relative was brought in to do the job and he said the cement mixer wouldn't keep up. So they built the whole house mixing concrete with a hoe. With a brand new mixer 15 feet away.

I have had one success that relates to your list however. My father in-law has finally discovered the benefits of a proper western style shovel/spade and he uses it frequently. Although I have taken to using a hoe for many jobs. it can be a remarkable tool as well.

Edited July 5, 2014 by canuckamuck

[mikebell]

' the benefits of a proper western style shovel/spade' Where did you find this miracle tool?

[canuckamuck]

They used to sell some very nice ones at Home Pro, I bought two for 700 baht each. I have never seen their equal in Thailand since.

[pigeonjake]

and i had a member on here in the general section telling me i shouldnt be letting my wife clean pigs out i should be getting help for her,

ive told him while we are able we will be doing it ourselfs, much easyer, and when we cant do it ,it,ll be time to call it a day,,

i feel for you mate

jake

[cooked]

They used to sell some very nice ones at Home Pro, I bought two for 700 baht each. I have never seen their equal in Thailand since.

I sawed the handles off two and brought them with me. Definitely not for sale!

I could go on for hours about the fact that most shovels have handles that are too short forcing people to bend over and get back ache. I could never teach English employees to use them properly either, if we're getting into Thai bashing, they just grab the handle half way down and insist on getting back ache. Shall I start on wheel barrows that fall over? Next thing that I bring back with me will be a proper masons' barrow. I'm not surprised that most Thais dislike them.

[canuckamuck]

Now that is a fine shovel.

I have bought a couple of wheel barrows that were pretty fair, The last one I bought was cheaper that the other ones it was standing with because it had an inflatable tire. Apparently that shop saw it as a negative. Fine with me. To be fair thought that particular one falls over backwards if you don't keep the front loaded. I have never had one at home do that. The supports are too far forward.

[metisdead]

A post with derogatory generalizations (trolling) toward Thais has been removed.

[kickstart]

They used to sell some very nice ones at Home Pro, I bought two for 700 baht each. I have never seen their equal in Thailand since.

I sawed the handles off two and brought them with me. Definitely not for sale!

I could go on for hours about the fact that most shovels have handles that are too short forcing people to bend over and get back ache. I could never teach English employees to use them properly either, if we're getting into Thai bashing, they just grab the handle half way down and insist on getting back ache. Shall I start on wheel barrows that fall over? Next thing that I bring back with me will be a proper masons' barrow. I'm not surprised that most Thais dislike them.

[/quote

I was back in the uk a while ago ,top of my shopping list this time was a shovel,I had an old builders one with a wooden handle,will not get hot left in the sun,used it last week to shovel out a load of cow muck from the back of the trailer on to the Napier grass,what a pleasure to use compared to the Thai ones, the job was almost effertless,3 years ago I brought a spade back another good idea.

The misses has looked at them,but never used them ,only uses the hoe, but as canuckamuck said the Thai hoe can be a very usefull tool,

[somo]

Most of the problems us farangs have with the way things are done here are really ours not "theirs"

We pay ridiculously low wages so cannot really complain when things are done their way and may not be as efficient as in the west where their labour would cost 20 times as much.

Living here we need to trade a little inefficiency for the much lower cost - it is still a great deal. My house was built in stages over many years but overall the labour came to less than 5000 UK Pounds.

Back home it would have been over 100k so I really don't care that there was no cement mixer on site.

It can be tricky to stay cool when things are not the same as back home but if you want to be happy just go with what happens and just occassionally put your foot down to show you are no mug.

Never pay in advance for anything and get a price for each job and you can't go far wrong as long as you understand that you are paying a pittance so can get things redone if needs be without losing anything but a bit of time.

When in Thailand do as the Romans do??!!??

By the way if you showed a pic/drawing of the shovel above you could have them made up for 100-150 Baht. The Thais are brilliant at making those sort of things

[cooked]

Most of the problems us farangs have with the way things are done here are really ours not "theirs"

We pay ridiculously low wages so cannot really complain when things are done their way and may not be as efficient as in the west where their labour would cost 20 times as much.

Living here we need to trade a little inefficiency for the much lower cost - it is still a great deal. My house was built in stages over many years but overall the labour came to less than 5000 UK Pounds.

Back home it would have been over 100k so I really don't care that there was no cement mixer on site.

It can be tricky to stay cool when things are not the same as back home but if you want to be happy just go with what happens and just occassionally put your foot down to show you are no mug.

Never pay in advance for anything and get a price for each job and you can't go far wrong as long as you understand that you are paying a pittance so can get things redone if needs be without losing anything but a bit of time.

When in Thailand do as the Romans do??!!??

By the way if you showed a pic/drawing of the shovel above you could have them made up for 100-150 Baht. The Thais are brilliant at making those sort of things

The above pictured shovel is made from tempered steel, not from metal taken from a biscuit box. Just fixing the handle is a job of work, ฿150? That is an insult to this tool, can't be done. The two I have have lasted me 30 years.

Staying on topic: the Swiss peasantry 100 years ago were extremely poor, but they took great pride in their tools and the way that they were used. The scythe that they had for instance had probably belonged to granddad but was an extremely refined piece of workmanship that was looked after. Saws don't get used here much 'because they don't cut'... meaning it is difficult to buy the correct files for sharpening...not that they would be interested in learning how to sharpen and look after their stuff. I saw the SIL loading and unloading rice straw with a stick, I showed him how to use the pitch fork, 10 times quicker... you guessed it, he wouldn't even try.

It isn't the poverty, it is the attitude of a lack of pride in workmanship and ability to adapt to new technologies that disturbs many people. I remember various small innovations during my working life; I was always a bit suspicious at first but was also very interested and was at least enthusiastic about trying them out and experimenting, as were my employees, generally. Some of them turned out to be rubbish, but I tried.

I agree that the end result generally turns out ok, apart from the occasional road surface and rail road that deteriorates rapidly, the occasional Global house store that falls down and kills people in a high wind (5 killed was it? - family of my SIL by the way...), lack of safety consciousness. A lot of this is to be laid at the door of educational standards and attitudes but that is something that won't be changing in our time.

[somo]

Thailand is indeed different to a lot of places. Getting frustrated because of those differences and trying eradicate them is self defeating and leads to further frustration. The answer is therefore clearly to found in a glass or two of cold beer. Laughing at how things are also helps plus muttering "mai pen rai" at least once an hour. Trying to change people and get them to think the same way as you do is not the way to go if you want to be happy here.

[canuckamuck]

Thailand is indeed different to a lot of places. Getting frustrated because of those differences and trying eradicate them is self defeating and leads to further frustration. The answer is therefore clearly to found in a glass or two of cold beer. Laughing at how things are also helps plus muttering "mai pen rai" at least once an hour. Trying to change people and get them to think the same way as you do is not the way to go if you want to be happy here.

Yes you are right for the most part, but still we need to get things done sometimes, and my OP was partially an attempt to find some wisdom in dealing with the farm worker and having a somewhat satisfactory result. Currently it is either ignore all deviations from the plan and have a beer as you say. Or go out there and show them what they are doing wrong and then go look for another guy, because that relationship is shot.

I see that Thai bosses have little trouble getting the job done the way they want. Can I have the same expectation though? That is the question.

[kannot]

Ive found workers virtually useless in all aspects so ended up building two house alone and I mean everything alone, no help at all. I now have two houses I know are perfect with the correct concrete and blocks laid with cement all round not just a bit on the horizontal joints etc

It takes me about a year to build each one from footings to painting, its HARD work because of the heat more than anything else.

Edited July 9, 2014 by kannot

[oldsalt]

I own a small bungalow operation with a Thai partner and he is very smart. But he could just as easily be telling the same story! Farang boss. Thai boss. No difference. Especially in rural Thailand. The stories I could relate are endless, but basically the same.

[Rykbanlor]

Actually most of my Thai friends own businesses - hotels etc - and they constantly complain about the standard of Thai staff, equally difficult for them. My friends prove that there are plenty of very savvy, westernized and forward thinking Thai folks around, but not, seemingly, at the lower end of the wage spectrum.

[minikev]

I recently made a gate 6 metres wide so we can on occasion take delivery of a container (it's on a fairly tight turn) The Chang (builder) building the attaching walls didn't want me to concrete the posts in before hand. I put my foot down and said in my opinion in this instance this was the best way to go as I needed to be sure the gap would be 6 metres plus the width of one post. My wife said that I had offended the Chang and that he understood and I should go along with his way which was to build the walls and concrete posts first. Yesterday he calls me over proudly showing me the tape measure saying he had changed the posts so my gate posts would mount inside the wall making the gap 5 metres 70.

I asked him how we would now get a container truck round such a tight bend with the reduced gap? He replied mai thong huang cow kab gaeng. Don't worry they are very good drivers..

I was a bit fed up but my reply was mai pen rai I suppose when the truck knocks the wall down it will be fun to get him to put the posts in the right place.

[scorecard]

Certainly agree, never employee family and beware of them thinking they have the absolute right to make decisions on your part etc.

My Thai adult son has had a nightmare with this. His Thai wife is the nicest young lady you could wish to meet but her family are a nightmare.

My son has to get them together and make it very clear that 'this is the family house of the XXX family' also making it plain that they are welcome to stay overnight but no longer and they cannot touch anything in the house. Why?

- Come home and discover they have moved the big TV to another place in the living room and it's balanced precariously on a coupe of old cardboard boxes with electric cords stretched across and ready to trip someone up.

- Sister in law arrives from a bus about 7.50 am. Our maid arrives at 8.10 am. Sister in law (never seen the maid before) instantly starts abusing the maid for being late. Son intervenes and says maids agreed start time is 8.30 am. SIL then changes her abuse to lazy. She's never been to the house before. Son then tells SIL she is welcome but no more than one night and she cannot make any comment about anything to anybody when she's in the house. She now visits maybe once every 2 years, overnight only.

- Other SIL comes to sons house. She disappears upstairs, son's wife goes upstairs and her sister is packing suitcases for sons two young kids. Son's wife asks asks 'why?'. Her sister then announces she's made all the plans to take the children to live with their grandmother. In reality this is exactly what my son and his wife don't want. Idiot SIL now claims it's Thai law. Son tells her to leave and to never ever make any plans for anything about his family.

- Other SIL tells a guy from Bkk that he can park his double decker tour bus outside our house (upcountry). Bus turns up, nobody knows anything about this arrangement son and his wife would never agree. Bus man then says he's paid a fee to SIL. Son tells the bus man he must move the bus to another location immediately and refunds the fee the bus man has paid (150Baht). Son has to strongly tell this SIL to never ever make any plans about anything to do with his family.

My son and his wife are well aware that the outer relatives think they are rude and they don't appreciate the help that the outers try to arrange.

Edited July 9, 2014 by scorecard

[Tatsujin]

Most of the problems us farangs have with the way things are done here are really ours not "theirs"

We pay ridiculously low wages so cannot really complain when things are done their way and may not be as efficient as in the west where their labour would cost 20 times as much.

Living here we need to trade a little inefficiency for the much lower cost - it is still a great deal. My house was built in stages over many years but overall the labour came to less than 5000 UK Pounds.

Back home it would have been over 100k so I really don't care that there was no cement mixer on site.

It can be tricky to stay cool when things are not the same as back home but if you want to be happy just go with what happens and just occassionally put your foot down to show you are no mug.

Never pay in advance for anything and get a price for each job and you can't go far wrong as long as you understand that you are paying a pittance so can get things redone if needs be without losing anything but a bit of time.

When in Thailand do as the Romans do??!!??

By the way if you showed a pic/drawing of the shovel above you could have them made up for 100-150 Baht. The Thais are brilliant at making those sort of things

What a load of crap.

It makes absolutely NO difference how much is paid to someone here as to their job performance on the whole, and we're talking about Thailand, not "the West" so labour charges/costs are what they are here, not 150 baht (Thai rate for example) + whatever markup they can screw out of you for being a "generous/wealthy" foreigner . . . so it doesn't matter what the equivalent job would cost in another country.

"When in Rome do as the Romans do" . . . that sounds fine in principle right up until the point when they know they are dealing with a foreigner and then you'll get treated differently (badly) no matter how much you pay them.

I don't give a crap "how" a job is completed, as long as it's done within a reasonable timeframe and is completed to satisfaction. They can do it "their" way, or they can do it "my" way . . . up to them as long as the end result is up to scratch. If it's not, I'll be complaining, no matter which way they did it.

I appreciate not "all" Thai's have these bad attitudes, but given a quick poll on here, I think you'll find the bad experiences far outweigh any good experiences when dealing with Thai's.

[wabothai]

4 years of nightmares. 20 crews and 4 mill. Baht.

[tingtongteesood]

Sorry, I have nothing useful to add, all I can say 'is with great difficulty'....

[schietkop]

I have a repair company for Smartphones and I had the issue that my repair staff didnt really work carefully. I had to teach them to put all screws inside instead of leaving them out of the phone. And also had to teach them not to charge a battery when it was not replaced 55555, or swap a camera for a cheap chinese one. Nothing worked to try to change their mentality! Worst of all, they also damaged parts like displays just by being not carefull and it was costing me money.

The solution..... what do Thai like most? Money so the solution is to be found here. From 2 month ago I put them on a commission system. Same Basic salary but an extra 5% commission on every repair. If you break something, no problem, we deduct from the commission. If more then 3 customer complaints, commission will not be paid. Now this worked out well.... they start actually selling customer screen protectors when they have a display repair:). Also I havent had any defect since. Not sure its applicable to your business but for sure it worked out well for mine. Success there!

[Deli]

I am just about to hire new staff and it's the same <deleted> nightmare every time again. Can confirm all stories posted here.

Just waiting for 2015 to get labor with a different mentality to work. In the meantime: Go nuts or deal with it ( and go nuts ).

[Brian Robson]

I can suggest one thing.

Quote: "But it turns out I still don't get it. For example if you give clear instructions for something to be done and they do something else, or don't do it at all. How do you tell them they got it wrong without embarrassing them and having a big pout session."

This is a cultural issue I experienced in Africa. If you give a set of instructions and ask if they understood, they will always say "yes" as it is considered disrespectful to say "no".

The answer is to request them to repeat your instructions back to you, to ensure they have understood!

[Rockhopper]

"Working With The Thais" by Henry Holmes and Suchada Tangtonglavy

[tkramer]

"How do you tell them they got it wrong without embarrassing"

The only way this culture is ever going to progress is if they DO start feeling embarrassed. Embarassment is a great teacher and a great motivator.

[Grateful farang]

@canucamuck

The problem is a cultural one.

Thailand is a free land.

A hot country.

In spain they have siesta (they sleep in the afternoon because its too hot to work)

"only mad dogs and englishmen go out in the midday sun"

You think because you provide employment everyone will just obey and work? No chance!

Thai people are proud and care free!

They also do not jump when a "ugly farang" tells them to do so.

If you want to find a jumpy jumpy obidient people who can do anything for money and obey any order.

You have to move your business operation to sub saharan africa