Junta wants reforms done quickly

[northernjohn]

If they were serious, there wouldn't also be an article today about how they want to enable borrowing money from a bank so that farmers can pay off loans to loan sharks.

If they were serious the loan sharks would be collecting nothing except a prison sentence.

Could end up being a vicious circle. Once loan sharks are paid then the bank borrower will have no money again & may have to resort back to the shark. Make the loan sharks official by having them on a register, everyone including officialdom must know who they are, & ensure they only charge fair interest. Any loan sharks operating outside of this system should be punished by confiscation of money & assets.

If the bank loans him enough money to pay off the loan shark he will have more money monthly as his payments will be a lot lower.

The right thing for the Government to do even though it was not the existing government but the PTP one's fault is to pay all the interest the farmers had to pay on the loans no matter where they got them as a direct result of the PTP scam

[northernjohn]

There seems to be a lot of generalisations out there - ' the main influential people in Thailand are almost always corrupt', or 'most political candidates are mentally challenged'. Thailand is not a western democracy, the thinking is different, legal principles are different, the social structure is different, so the way to govern the country will be something that suits Thai people - not westerners. We may not like nepotism, but much of business is tied into very long standing family connections and obligations. All the talk about Thailand going down the gurgler is nonsense. It has a strong economy, and has survived various recent world downturns rather well.

The current military government clearly doesn't fit the stereotype view of the US and others,- tough ! It takes time to make the changes being raised, and maybe its about time for some of us to support and give credit for what,s happening, and stop the meaningless criticisms.

The first stage of a fascist military dictatorship is enthusiasm. The second stage is "well, give them more time."

There are five stages. Sounds like you're in the second stage.

Sounds like you are Thai bashing. They do some thing positive in the government and you try to turn it into a negative. No helpful suggestions just they are in the process of becoming a dictatorship.

Absolutely no concern for the people that the military is helping out no credit for slowing down corruption just they are in the process of becoming a dictatorship. I suppose you would be happy if they turned it into a Democracy like North Korea where every one agrees on who runs the country by a vote.

[englishoak]

Oops seems stage one the honeymoon period is coming to an end...

Why are some still harping on about an ex government when the topic is about the Junta wanting fast reforms ? which of course will fail in their haste and fervour to fix everything at once like a kid in a candy shop will sample everything but finish nothing... allowing of course a back door in later when they can claim the interim or to be elected gov fails to deliver the juntas promises btw the farmers were paid the same way as PTP wanted to do, only they didnt have the Juntas absolute power without limit.. farmers did not get poorer they are far better off now than they would have been selling at the market rates.... the country balance is worse off but not the farmers lets be clear about that. Unless it was because of loan sharks rates while the payments were blocked and messed up but the rice scam subsidy has only helped the farmers pockets however misguided the scheme. Then again there has been nothing done about loan sharks and thats because certain parties are making a huge profit out of it and guess who are running some of these loan sharking operations ? think camo and your on the right track....

So back to the topic, what has actually apart from farmers being paid been fixed ? nothing thats what,... a lot of hot air some parking, a few guns lots of parties and free stuff and noise and claims and promises but so far has actually fixed nothing fully at all... its been all bluster and words with no substance and a lot of populist sanctioned headlines with no criticism allowed.... You dont try to reform everything in sight all at the same time in short order.... a first grader will tell you they cant deal with the workload duh !

End of the day soldiers are soldiers, they are good at shooting things and intimidating people but thats about it.

I said history will judge and I dont mean the Thai version of history either with all its half truths and omitted details but stark hard reality about how great a military coup is for a countries progress, prosperity or even long term stability, the odds are never very favourable ... I stand by that still.

PS really good article in Bkk post and Minding Thailand's business. pretty much spot on.

Edited July 6, 2014 by englishoak

[rubl]

If they were serious, there wouldn't also be an article today about how they want to enable borrowing money from a bank so that farmers can pay off loans to loan sharks.

If they were serious the loan sharks would be collecting nothing except a prison sentence.

Interesting subject really. Some 'loan sharks' are relatives, some local bosses / elite, some related to other 'influencial' figures. In a way the 'load shark' idea seems embedded as of cultural value in Thailand.

Various governments and especially the previous one had started banks and special schemes to help poor farmers. All schemes by the previous government may have cost the Thai nation 1 trillion Baht in hardly more than two years and the farmers lot hasn't improved. Special loans from banks and maybe even the 'village funds' seems to have had no effect, still the need to turn to other money sources.

It seems there's something structurally wrong which needs to be tackled to reduce or even eliminate the need for loan sharks.

As for charging loan sharks, good idea, assuming there's a proper legal base for it. Mind you, the 'innocent till found guilty' might mean the poor farmers are still obliged to repay with interest as long as no verdict has been reached. Maybe the court can impose a moratorium on debt payments related to people charged ?

One answer is that Thai farming is run by cartels. The farmer has to buy seed, chemicals and fertilizer - all from price fixing cartels. Then he has to sell his harvest to a cartel which fixes the price.

Small farmers can avoid some of that by if nothing else selling at a road stand and night markets. Some can be sold to locals. But that works only for a very small farmer.

Will the cartels be broken? Will farming become a truly free enterprise? Or, is there too much money and influence within the cartels to kill the golden goose?

I don't see the big money being torn down. Not the loan sharks or the cartels. The proposals are to make bank loans and further drain the same government bank that's hit with the rice scheme to allow the farmers to pay off the loan sharks. How do the vicious loan sharks get such a deal? This is a dictatorship, innit? Rather than reward them, tear them down. No? Why?

BTW

"According to the Air Chief, he will ask the Government Savings Bank (GSB) to speedily lend to the debtors so they could repay non-formal lenders. The Bank for Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives (BAAC) may also be asked to help lend to the debtors as well. Related agencies will also be asked to scrutinize non-formal lenders who tend to use violence to extract payment.

The Air Force chief's comments were echoed by Mr. Khosit, who proposed that the NCPO look into loan sharks' use of violence and supportive measures for banks to lend to those indebted to loan sharks. According to data from the network, there were around 2.2 million households that owed money to non-formal lenders."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/740316-government-savings-bank-will-be-asked-to-lend-money-to-debtors-of-non-formal-lenders/

[fab4]

"I acknowledge that the NCPO is not a very pretty thing for a democratic system. There are people who say the NCPO should stay in power for five to 10 years but if we stay that long then we all will die of old age. Let's not stay that long but let us stay in accordance with the roadmap of the NCPO leader."

Just as long as everybody realises part of that roadmap states that once the junta have "left the scene" they still reserve the right to have power over the interim government. If that is the case how can the interim government end this "arrangement"? Answer, they can't - the timescale is purely at the whim of the junta.

Tony Benn's " Democratic Question Number 5 " comes to mind;

"In the course of my life I have developed five little democratic questions. If one meets a powerful person - Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates - ask them five questions"...........

"............ and how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system."

Just as long as people realise that when talking of 'leaving the scene' the NCPO means once the general elections have been held. October 2015 I think the NCPO had said?

I'm surprised, my dear fabs, that of all people you need to have this explained

No need to explain it to me rubl, if you wish to believe that will happen, carry on.

[fab4]

Thailand has had many military coups. How many have transformed into long term military dictatorships in the past 50 years ? History speaks for itself.

Please enlighten me, how many in the last 50 years, and even more relevant how many in the last 25 years?

Seeing as you asked, and are seemingly unable to use a search engine yourself, there have been 6 coups in the last 50 years, 3 in the past 25 years. And that's just the successful ones, if you can call a coup a "success".

The question from TA was "How many have transformed into long term military dictatorships"

That's not apparent from your question/s. If you had specifically asked him how many have "transformed into long term military dictatorships" in the last 50 years....." than I would agree with you, but you didn't. Just lazy use of the English Language which only leads to confusion, I'm afraid.

[rubl]

"I acknowledge that the NCPO is not a very pretty thing for a democratic system. There are people who say the NCPO should stay in power for five to 10 years but if we stay that long then we all will die of old age. Let's not stay that long but let us stay in accordance with the roadmap of the NCPO leader."

Just as long as everybody realises part of that roadmap states that once the junta have "left the scene" they still reserve the right to have power over the interim government. If that is the case how can the interim government end this "arrangement"? Answer, they can't - the timescale is purely at the whim of the junta.

Tony Benn's " Democratic Question Number 5 " comes to mind;

"In the course of my life I have developed five little democratic questions. If one meets a powerful person - Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates - ask them five questions"...........

"............ and how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system."

Just as long as people realise that when talking of 'leaving the scene' the NCPO means once the general elections have been held. October 2015 I think the NCPO had said?

I'm surprised, my dear fabs, that of all people you need to have this explained

No need to explain it to me rubl, if you wish to believe that will happen, carry on.

If you had a period (i.e. .) behind my name and the "If ..." was a new sentence, I would have less problems believing you weren't trolling.

As it is ... ...

[rubl]

Seeing as you asked, and are seemingly unable to use a search engine yourself, there have been 6 coups in the last 50 years, 3 in the past 25 years. And that's just the successful ones, if you can call a coup a "success".

The question from TA was "How many have transformed into long term military dictatorships"

That's not apparent from your question/s. If you had specifically asked him how many have "transformed into long term military dictatorships" in the last 50 years....." than I would agree with you, but you didn't. Just lazy use of the English Language which only leads to confusion, I'm afraid.

TA: "How many have transformed into long term military dictatorships in the past 50 years?"

rubl: "how many in the last 50 years"

So, does this Dutch uncle really need to explain the English language to you?

[fab4]

Seeing as you asked, and are seemingly unable to use a search engine yourself, there have been 6 coups in the last 50 years, 3 in the past 25 years. And that's just the successful ones, if you can call a coup a "success".

The question from TA was "How many have transformed into long term military dictatorships"

That's not apparent from your question/s. If you had specifically asked him how many have "transformed into long term military dictatorships" in the last 50 years....." than I would agree with you, but you didn't. Just lazy use of the English Language which only leads to confusion, I'm afraid.

TA: "How many have transformed into long term military dictatorships in the past 50 years?"

rubl: "how many in the last 50 years"

So, does this Dutch uncle really need to explain the English language to you?

You could try.

[englishoak]

Seeing as you asked, and are seemingly unable to use a search engine yourself, there have been 6 coups in the last 50 years, 3 in the past 25 years. And that's just the successful ones, if you can call a coup a "success".

The question from TA was "How many have transformed into long term military dictatorships"

That's not apparent from your question/s. If you had specifically asked him how many have "transformed into long term military dictatorships" in the last 50 years....." than I would agree with you, but you didn't. Just lazy use of the English Language which only leads to confusion, I'm afraid.

TA: "How many have transformed into long term military dictatorships in the past 50 years?"

rubl: "how many in the last 50 years"

So, does this Dutch uncle really need to explain the English language to you?

I havnt noticed you giving firm advice benevolent advice maybe and certainly opinionated hopes .but not firm advice.

[Basil B]

That was the problem last time rushing things.

It takes time to formulate the changes Thailand needs, the Junta jumped in with no manifesto, I truly believe they do want to hand Thailand over to a democratically elected government as soon as possible but rushing things will leave Thailand with poorly thought out constitution that make no clear road map in the event of many situations as proven in the last year.

[city]

What kind of parliament will be suitable for Thailand and should the lower House and upper House be elected or partly appointed and how should they be scrutinise and impeached, and should they belong to a political party or not?

Partly appointed lower house. First step to stop Thaksins popularity forming a majority government

[djjamie]

"should the lower House and upper House be elected or partly appointed"

I am all for following the Canadian model and having a fully appointed senate. Thailand voters have already admitted they have no idea what a senator role entails and that is reflected through the new Udon senator winning a senate seat when she had previously smuggled her husband across the border to Laos to escape the law and the Chiang Mai senator is affiliated with RCM51, a minority driven, violent terrorist group. These lawbreakers will ironically be responsible for passing laws. When the majority of the population has no idea what a senator's job entails this is a very bad sign. Thank God the entities that appoint a senate do so knowing full well the evil damage that a fully voted senate is potentially capable of. Until the voters are educated an appointed senate it should be.

As for the lower house. Well, the 2011 elections showed that the voters are too easily manipulated by populism and not educated enough in choosing a responsible political party. Some say "the voters get what they deserve". That may be the case, but the country unfairly suffers which is simply not deserved. With that said after reform it should not matter if crooks are voted in because the reform will ensure they are removed swiftly. I doubt a PTP or affiliated political party will be voted in again anyway after the country has witnessed the damage they have caused as well as seeing them turn on their own supporters when they dared protest about rice payments. Why would you want a tumor that was removed from your brain placed back into it!

As the NCPO cabinet short list goes it is interesting to see there are no DEM's on it. Only ex Thai Rak Thai ministers. One could suggest they are biased by (murder to arrest ratio) arresting more PDRC thugs than RS thugs and now this. Of course I won't say it is a conspiracy or a biased Junta. That is just silly and can be left with the UDD and PTP supporters to suggest against all reason.

Edited July 6, 2014 by djjamie

[NeilSA1]

If they were serious, there wouldn't also be an article today about how they want to enable borrowing money from a bank so that farmers can pay off loans to loan sharks.

If they were serious the loan sharks would be collecting nothing except a prison sentence.

Interesting subject really. Some 'loan sharks' are relatives, some local bosses / elite, some related to other 'influencial' figures. In a way the 'load shark' idea seems embedded as of cultural value in Thailand.

Various governments and especially the previous one had started banks and special schemes to help poor farmers. All schemes by the previous government may have cost the Thai nation 1 trillion Baht in hardly more than two years and the farmers lot hasn't improved. Special loans from banks and maybe even the 'village funds' seems to have had no effect, still the need to turn to other money sources.

It seems there's something structurally wrong which needs to be tackled to reduce or even eliminate the need for loan sharks.

As for charging loan sharks, good idea, assuming there's a proper legal base for it. Mind you, the 'innocent till found guilty' might mean the poor farmers are still obliged to repay with interest as long as no verdict has been reached. Maybe the court can impose a moratorium on debt payments related to people charged ?

Are 'loan sharks' illegal in Thailand? Or are they permitted to operate within certain rules, pertaining to interest rates, repayment periods etc? Severe laws were passed in my country forcing the loan sharks to comply with certain criteria, so as to give borrowers some recourse and more reasonable terms. Perhaps this will be addressed here, if TV is in fact read by the Junta as surmised by some members

[Paulzed]

Oops seems stage one the honeymoon period is coming to an end...

Why are some still harping on about an ex government when the topic is about the Junta wanting fast reforms ? which of course will fail in their haste and fervour to fix everything at once like a kid in a candy shop will sample everything but finish nothing... allowing of course a back door in later when they can claim the interim or to be elected gov fails to deliver the juntas promises btw the farmers were paid the same way as PTP wanted to do, only they didnt have the Juntas absolute power without limit.. farmers did not get poorer they are far better off now than they would have been selling at the market rates.... the country balance is worse off but not the farmers lets be clear about that. Unless it was because of loan sharks rates while the payments were blocked and messed up but the rice scam subsidy has only helped the farmers pockets however misguided the scheme. Then again there has been nothing done about loan sharks and thats because certain parties are making a huge profit out of it and guess who are running some of these loan sharking operations ? think camo and your on the right track....

So back to the topic, what has actually apart from farmers being paid been fixed ? nothing thats what,... a lot of hot air some parking, a few guns lots of parties and free stuff and noise and claims and promises but so far has actually fixed nothing fully at all... its been all bluster and words with no substance and a lot of populist sanctioned headlines with no criticism allowed.... You dont try to reform everything in sight all at the same time in short order.... a first grader will tell you they cant deal with the workload duh !

End of the day soldiers are soldiers, they are good at shooting things and intimidating people but thats about it.

I said history will judge and I dont mean the Thai version of history either with all its half truths and omitted details but stark hard reality about how great a military coup is for a countries progress, prosperity or even long term stability, the odds are never very favourable ... I stand by that still.

PS really good article in Bkk post and Minding Thailand's business. pretty much spot on.

"I said history will judge and I dont mean the Thai version of history either with all its half truths and omitted details but stark hard reality about how great a military coup is for a countries progress, prosperity or even long term stability, the odds are never very favourable ... I stand by that still".

A short term coup is simply designed to remove one pack of mongrels and replacing them with another type.

There will be no long term reforms or changes and the vicious cycle of political corruption, petty mafias etc will continue .

A long term coup is designed to make long-term changes to the culture and the political system, history will remember the American revolution, the American civil war, the Russian revolution, French Revolution etc... as successful coups that changed the political system and culture of a complete nation.

Remember that George Washington was the first man to be publicly called a traitor and a terrorist.

[NeilSA1]

There seems to be a lot of generalisations out there - ' the main influential people in Thailand are almost always corrupt', or 'most political candidates are mentally challenged'. Thailand is not a western democracy, the thinking is different, legal principles are different, the social structure is different, so the way to govern the country will be something that suits Thai people - not westerners. We may not like nepotism, but much of business is tied into very long standing family connections and obligations. All the talk about Thailand going down the gurgler is nonsense. It has a strong economy, and has survived various recent world downturns rather well.

The current military government clearly doesn't fit the stereotype view of the US and others,- tough ! It takes time to make the changes being raised, and maybe its about time for some of us to support and give credit for what,s happening, and stop the meaningless criticisms.

The first stage of a fascist military dictatorship is enthusiasm. The second stage is "well, give them more time."

There are five stages. Sounds like you're in the second stage.

I was interested in your comment, so I Googled it. There is a long article entitled 'five stages of a fascist..." The most interesting point of this article was that it stated that America was at stage 5.

" Fascist America: Are We There Yet?.................

We've arrived. We are now parked on the exact spot where our best experts tell us full-blown fascism is born. Every day that the conservatives in Congress, the right-wing talking heads, and their noisy minions are allowed to hold up our ability to govern the country is another day we're slowly creeping across the final line beyond which, history tells us, no country has ever been able to return."

Some articles I do not believe in, This is one of them.

I think Thailand will not go beyond this 'second stage(?)' As TA asked has any Military intervention in Thailand in the past 50 years ever " transformed into long term military dictatorships?" a; Never.

[NeilSA1]

tim armstrong claims to be Thai, then said "It takes time to make the changes being raised, and maybe its about time for some of us to support and give credit for what,s happening, and stop the meaningless criticisms."

Meaningless criticisms? What Thai planet are you from? There are some good changes, but they are very thin and vague.

If a man builds me a good house with terrible windows and doors, and I say "The doors and windows are terrible." I am not lying, and am worried about intruders, the weather and have a reasonable criticism.

Perhaps if a man (the Junta), builds you a good house with terrible windows and doors, you should be grateful, and then look at fixing the doors and windows yourself. Please give the Junta a reasonable period of time before voicing a reasonable criticism.

[h90]

If they were serious, there wouldn't also be an article today about how they want to enable borrowing money from a bank so that farmers can pay off loans to loan sharks.

If they were serious the loan sharks would be collecting nothing except a prison sentence.

Interesting subject really. Some 'loan sharks' are relatives, some local bosses / elite, some related to other 'influencial' figures. In a way the 'load shark' idea seems embedded as of cultural value in Thailand.

Various governments and especially the previous one had started banks and special schemes to help poor farmers. All schemes by the previous government may have cost the Thai nation 1 trillion Baht in hardly more than two years and the farmers lot hasn't improved. Special loans from banks and maybe even the 'village funds' seems to have had no effect, still the need to turn to other money sources.

It seems there's something structurally wrong which needs to be tackled to reduce or even eliminate the need for loan sharks.

As for charging loan sharks, good idea, assuming there's a proper legal base for it. Mind you, the 'innocent till found guilty' might mean the poor farmers are still obliged to repay with interest as long as no verdict has been reached. Maybe the court can impose a moratorium on debt payments related to people charged ?

One answer is that Thai farming is run by cartels. The farmer has to buy seed, chemicals and fertilizer - all from price fixing cartels. Then he has to sell his harvest to a cartel which fixes the price.

Small farmers can avoid some of that by if nothing else selling at a road stand and night markets. Some can be sold to locals. But that works only for a very small farmer.

Will the cartels be broken? Will farming become a truly free enterprise? Or, is there too much money and influence within the cartels to kill the golden goose?

I don't see the big money being torn down. Not the loan sharks or the cartels. The proposals are to make bank loans and further drain the same government bank that's hit with the rice scheme to allow the farmers to pay off the loan sharks. How do the vicious loan sharks get such a deal? This is a dictatorship, innit? Rather than reward them, tear them down. No? Why?

Well, look at Santi Asoke. Organic farming and processing things themself as good as possible. They are swimming in money. But it is difficult for a single farmer. Some must work together and it needs a lot more thinking. Not hard working on the field all the day and in the evening drinking lao kao with your friends.

It is than hard working on the field on the day and buying business owner in evening, planing strategy and marketing. Europe went thru this and many had to give up. Others took over and got large farmer and some found niches and got wealthy with special products....organic, special plants or animals, combination of farming and tourist business, direct marketing. etc etc.

The cartels are a pain and they are mafia like. But they are only half of the problem. The other is making the things the same way as always without thinking.

[max72]

If the Junta wants to be credible, it should clean up the most corrupt institutions including the army itself, as indirectly admitted by Prayuth when he said Thailand problems come from "decades of bad governments". Since in the past decades the governments were mostly military and the least corrupt governments in history (according to Transparency International) were those of Thaksin and Yingluck and they were ousted, it means so far the struggle had been to fight the enemy side and install biased and "friendly" governments.

To break this circle, the first steps should be to prosecute ultra corrupt but untouchable peoples like Suchinda and Suthep, to show this is about tacking all corruption, not just the enemy side.

Prayuth shouldn't be worried about how the world sees this coup, it's obvious it doesn't look ok, but if he lets facts speak ,like prosecuting the villains of ALL SIDES regardeless the color, be sure the world will start to change its mind and give him time.

Edited July 6, 2014 by max72

[rubl]

If the Junta wants to be credible, it should clean up the most corrupt institutions including the army itself, as indirectly admitted by Prayuth when he said Thailand problems come from "decades of bad governments". Since in the past decades the governments were mostly military and the least corrupt governments in history (according to Transparency International) were those of Thaksin and Yingluck and they were ousted, it means so far the struggle had been to fight the enemy side and install biased and "friendly" governments.

To break this circle, the first steps should be to prosecute ultra corrupt but untouchable peoples like Suchinda and Suthep, to show this is about tacking all corruption, not just the enemy side.

Prayuth shouldn't be worried about how the world sees this coup, it's obvious it doesn't look ok, but if he lets facts speak ,like prosecuting the villains of ALL SIDES regardeless the color, be sure the world will start to change its mind and give him time.

I agree that the Military should also be cleaned up, although I would understand it's of lesser importance to them.

Mind you in the past decades we didn't have 'mostly' military governments, although compared to other democratic countries there are more army and police generals in government here than any other country I know.

To break this circle we must prosecute corrupt people, who have not been charged and/or absolved already.

Prayuth should not worry about all who say that the military this or that while ignoring why the military found it necessary to step in to avoid a direct civil war and to stop the near-anarchy we had for seven months (locally that is, in Bangkok, the only city which really counts in Thailand, some have it).

[northernjohn]

Oops seems stage one the honeymoon period is coming to an end...

Why are some still harping on about an ex government when the topic is about the Junta wanting fast reforms ? which of course will fail in their haste and fervour to fix everything at once like a kid in a candy shop will sample everything but finish nothing... allowing of course a back door in later when they can claim the interim or to be elected gov fails to deliver the juntas promises btw the farmers were paid the same way as PTP wanted to do, only they didnt have the Juntas absolute power without limit.. farmers did not get poorer they are far better off now than they would have been selling at the market rates.... the country balance is worse off but not the farmers lets be clear about that. Unless it was because of loan sharks rates while the payments were blocked and messed up but the rice scam subsidy has only helped the farmers pockets however misguided the scheme. Then again there has been nothing done about loan sharks and thats because certain parties are making a huge profit out of it and guess who are running some of these loan sharking operations ? think camo and your on the right track....

So back to the topic, what has actually apart from farmers being paid been fixed ? nothing thats what,... a lot of hot air some parking, a few guns lots of parties and free stuff and noise and claims and promises but so far has actually fixed nothing fully at all... its been all bluster and words with no substance and a lot of populist sanctioned headlines with no criticism allowed.... You dont try to reform everything in sight all at the same time in short order.... a first grader will tell you they cant deal with the workload duh !

End of the day soldiers are soldiers, they are good at shooting things and intimidating people but thats about it.

I said history will judge and I dont mean the Thai version of history either with all its half truths and omitted details but stark hard reality about how great a military coup is for a countries progress, prosperity or even long term stability, the odds are never very favourable ... I stand by that still.

PS really good article in Bkk post and Minding Thailand's business. pretty much spot on.

Well I will admit that they are going a little bit to fast in my opinion. but they are doing some thing. You are wrong about the farmers of course. They gained nothing except bills. The minute the price they got for the grain went up was the same minute all the middle men charges to them went up including the land owners who were leasing the land to them. Not sure how you figure the little farmers who had to sell their land was a gain but then again I did not go to red shirt school. How did the one's who committed suicide over this big money making windfall you are talking about gain. Are you referring to the fact that the family cost of living went down. A pretty cold attitude.

Back to the topic. The plan to enrich the PTP coffers has been scrapped you know the one that would have are great grandchildren paying off the 2.2 trillion baht loan for which they had to show no accountability. All water management projects halted and made to come forth with all details. Like the 350 billion one that the PTP didn't even bother to do an inviormental study on before awarding the contract to a shady Korean country. That was the one that in their arrogance the courts had to order one done. They never did it. People being able to walk the streets with a lot less fear of a grenade or rocket being fired at them or ping pong balls thrown at them. The list goes on. Yes I realize these are not a red shirts idea of progress but learn to live with it.

Edited July 6, 2014 by northernjohn

[metisdead]

Some nonsense posts with misspellings of names to antagonize others, i.e. trolling have been removed:

9) Do not post inflammatory messages on the forum, or attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its participants, or trolling.Trolling can be defined as the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet by posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

[northernjohn]

If the Junta wants to be credible, it should clean up the most corrupt institutions including the army itself, as indirectly admitted by Prayuth when he said Thailand problems come from "decades of bad governments". Since in the past decades the governments were mostly military and the least corrupt governments in history (according to Transparency International) were those of Thaksin and Yingluck and they were ousted, it means so far the struggle had been to fight the enemy side and install biased and "friendly" governments.

To break this circle, the first steps should be to prosecute ultra corrupt but untouchable peoples like Suchinda and Suthep, to show this is about tacking all corruption, not just the enemy side.

Prayuth shouldn't be worried about how the world sees this coup, it's obvious it doesn't look ok, but if he lets facts speak ,like prosecuting the villains of ALL SIDES regardeless the color, be sure the world will start to change its mind and give him time.

Transparency international only has records from 2,000 Thaksin and the army were the lowest. Then when the Army stepped down the corruption took of like a missal from Cape Canaveral that was launched into space. The three years that Abhist was in the rise stopped and in fact had a brief dip. Pretty good for a minority government that was depend on about 20 Thaksin trained MP's. The minute he was out and Thaksin was back in again the missal took off again. In fact in 2013 it showed a 2% rise to the highest ever.

You should check Amnesty International they have the records. 2012 tied for 88 in honesty out of a list of 177 countries 2013 they tied for 102 real hero's you have there. Now go back to red shirt school and come up with more nonsense. You have built a based on thin air so I doubt any thing that you come up with will be worth the time to read it.

Maybe you can get the Nation to put it in the comics.

[smutcakes]

Oops seems stage one the honeymoon period is coming to an end...

Why are some still harping on about an ex government when the topic is about the Junta wanting fast reforms ? which of course will fail in their haste and fervour to fix everything at once like a kid in a candy shop will sample everything but finish nothing... allowing of course a back door in later when they can claim the interim or to be elected gov fails to deliver the juntas promises btw the farmers were paid the same way as PTP wanted to do, only they didnt have the Juntas absolute power without limit.. farmers did not get poorer they are far better off now than they would have been selling at the market rates.... the country balance is worse off but not the farmers lets be clear about that. Unless it was because of loan sharks rates while the payments were blocked and messed up but the rice scam subsidy has only helped the farmers pockets however misguided the scheme. Then again there has been nothing done about loan sharks and thats because certain parties are making a huge profit out of it and guess who are running some of these loan sharking operations ? think camo and your on the right track....

So back to the topic, what has actually apart from farmers being paid been fixed ? nothing thats what,... a lot of hot air some parking, a few guns lots of parties and free stuff and noise and claims and promises but so far has actually fixed nothing fully at all... its been all bluster and words with no substance and a lot of populist sanctioned headlines with no criticism allowed.... You dont try to reform everything in sight all at the same time in short order.... a first grader will tell you they cant deal with the workload duh !

End of the day soldiers are soldiers, they are good at shooting things and intimidating people but thats about it.

I said history will judge and I dont mean the Thai version of history either with all its half truths and omitted details but stark hard reality about how great a military coup is for a countries progress, prosperity or even long term stability, the odds are never very favourable ... I stand by that still.

PS really good article in Bkk post and Minding Thailand's business. pretty much spot on.

Well I will admit that they are going a little bit to fast in my opinion. but they are doing some thing. You are wrong about the farmers of course. They gained nothing except bills. The minute the price they got for the grain went up was the same minute all the middle men charges to them went up including the land owners who were leasing the land to them. Not sure how you figure the little farmers who had to sell their land was a gain but then again I did not go to red shirt school. How did the one's who committed suicide over this big money making windfall you are talking about gain. Are you referring to the fact that the family cost of living went down. A pretty cold attitude.

Back to the topic. The plan to enrich the PTP coffers has been scrapped you know the one that would have are great grandchildren paying off the 2.2 trillion baht loan for which they had to show no accountability. All water management projects halted and made to come forth with all details. Like the 350 billion one that the PTP didn't even bother to do an inviormental study on before awarding the contract to a shady Korean country. That was the one that in their arrogance the courts had to order one done. They never did it. People being able to walk the streets with a lot less fear of a grenade or rocket being fired at them or ping pong balls thrown at them. The list goes on. Yes I realize these are not a red shirts idea of progress but learn to live with it.

You mean the 350bn water management one that the NCPO announced they are proceeding with in exactly the same form, price and with exactly the same bidders as previously under the PTP?

It was in the other paper on the 3rd July if you want to check. I wonder why the 40% PTP commission we are so often told about has not been taken out and the price reduced accordingly. No mention of environmental studies either.

[northernjohn]

tim armstrong claims to be Thai, then said "It takes time to make the changes being raised, and maybe its about time for some of us to support and give credit for what,s happening, and stop the meaningless criticisms."

Meaningless criticisms? What Thai planet are you from? There are some good changes, but they are very thin and vague.

If a man builds me a good house with terrible windows and doors, and I say "The doors and windows are terrible." I am not lying, and am worried about intruders, the weather and have a reasonable criticism.

Perhaps if a man (the Junta), builds you a good house with terrible windows and doors, you should be grateful, and then look at fixing the doors and windows yourself. Please give the Junta a reasonable period of time before voicing a reasonable criticism.

I agree it never ceases to amaze me the number of people that think all the problems should be cured in a month and a half. That is even though the junta has told them they will not be able to. They have said at one point that they would retain power for three months then release it to a provisional government that will take 12 to 15 months to iron out the problems and then have an election.

Yet people ignore what is happening and live on in there head and wonder why Thailand is not perfect in a month and a half. The funny part is these same people were probably agreeing with Yingluck when she said give me six months.

Edited July 6, 2014 by northernjohn

[northernjohn]

Oops seems stage one the honeymoon period is coming to an end...

Why are some still harping on about an ex government when the topic is about the Junta wanting fast reforms ? which of course will fail in their haste and fervour to fix everything at once like a kid in a candy shop will sample everything but finish nothing... allowing of course a back door in later when they can claim the interim or to be elected gov fails to deliver the juntas promises btw the farmers were paid the same way as PTP wanted to do, only they didnt have the Juntas absolute power without limit.. farmers did not get poorer they are far better off now than they would have been selling at the market rates.... the country balance is worse off but not the farmers lets be clear about that. Unless it was because of loan sharks rates while the payments were blocked and messed up but the rice scam subsidy has only helped the farmers pockets however misguided the scheme. Then again there has been nothing done about loan sharks and thats because certain parties are making a huge profit out of it and guess who are running some of these loan sharking operations ? think camo and your on the right track....

So back to the topic, what has actually apart from farmers being paid been fixed ? nothing thats what,... a lot of hot air some parking, a few guns lots of parties and free stuff and noise and claims and promises but so far has actually fixed nothing fully at all... its been all bluster and words with no substance and a lot of populist sanctioned headlines with no criticism allowed.... You dont try to reform everything in sight all at the same time in short order.... a first grader will tell you they cant deal with the workload duh !

End of the day soldiers are soldiers, they are good at shooting things and intimidating people but thats about it.

I said history will judge and I dont mean the Thai version of history either with all its half truths and omitted details but stark hard reality about how great a military coup is for a countries progress, prosperity or even long term stability, the odds are never very favourable ... I stand by that still.

PS really good article in Bkk post and Minding Thailand's business. pretty much spot on.

Well I will admit that they are going a little bit to fast in my opinion. but they are doing some thing. You are wrong about the farmers of course. They gained nothing except bills. The minute the price they got for the grain went up was the same minute all the middle men charges to them went up including the land owners who were leasing the land to them. Not sure how you figure the little farmers who had to sell their land was a gain but then again I did not go to red shirt school. How did the one's who committed suicide over this big money making windfall you are talking about gain. Are you referring to the fact that the family cost of living went down. A pretty cold attitude.

Back to the topic. The plan to enrich the PTP coffers has been scrapped you know the one that would have are great grandchildren paying off the 2.2 trillion baht loan for which they had to show no accountability. All water management projects halted and made to come forth with all details. Like the 350 billion one that the PTP didn't even bother to do an inviormental study on before awarding the contract to a shady Korean country. That was the one that in their arrogance the courts had to order one done. They never did it. People being able to walk the streets with a lot less fear of a grenade or rocket being fired at them or ping pong balls thrown at them. The list goes on. Yes I realize these are not a red shirts idea of progress but learn to live with it.

You mean the 350bn water management one that the NCPO announced they are proceeding with in exactly the same form, price and with exactly the same bidders as previously under the PTP?

It was in the other paper on the 3rd July if you want to check. I wonder why the 40% PTP commission we are so often told about has not been taken out and the price reduced accordingly. No mention of environmental studies either.

Could be I missed the article. but I am not new to the TV and have seen many truths posted that were taken out of context. As for the environmental study as I said the PTP was ordered by the courts to take one. it has probably been completed and turned into the army So let's not be giving credit where it is not due.

As I say things taken out of context. Regardless of it going ahead I was right on when I said the army ordered a review of it which they got in a different form than the one the PTP had tried to ram down the peoples throat.

Where you been Haven't seen you around for a while?

Basically you have agreed with every thing I said.

Edited July 6, 2014 by northernjohn

[pookiki]

There seems to be a lot of generalisations out there - ' the main influential people in Thailand are almost always corrupt', or 'most political candidates are mentally challenged'. Thailand is not a western democracy, the thinking is different, legal principles are different, the social structure is different, so the way to govern the country will be something that suits Thai people - not westerners. We may not like nepotism, but much of business is tied into very long standing family connections and obligations. All the talk about Thailand going down the gurgler is nonsense. It has a strong economy, and has survived various recent world downturns rather well.

The current military government clearly doesn't fit the stereotype view of the US and others,- tough ! It takes time to make the changes being raised, and maybe its about time for some of us to support and give credit for what,s happening, and stop the meaningless criticisms.

Interesting! Nepotism is ok, now? Please let Thawil know!

[JAG]

If the army goes away before everything is fixed like they did after the last coup, exactly the same problems will happen in 5 years again.

Stay 2, 3, 4 years and make the job perfect.

Oh I am sure that they will; stay a long time that is.

And when old age catches up with the present incumbents, there will be plenty to promote in their place. Just look across the northern border, that bunch have managed to keep their junta going for over 25 years!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[pookiki]

I have seen numerous articles that indicate that the junta is proceeding with many of the infrastructure plans of the previous government. It will be interesting to see what, if any, transparency is involved. There was also the decision to complete the building of all the incomplete police stations - a project that was riddled with corruption. Anyone brought to justice?

As has been noted by many if past TVF Forums, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. One would think that after the numerous coups that someone would have got the script right by now.

I also wonder about the rice pledging investigation. The NACC said it had all the evidence necessary to indict Yingluck but the soldiers are out in the warehouses counting rice bags, again. Was the investigation incomplete or incompetent?

A lot of the junta activities appears to have targeted alleged mafia operations. This is a short-term activity that will not likely produce any long-term results. The mafia is probably one of the most resilient organizations in any country. And it will always be that way as long as people covet greed, power, and money.

History has shown that dictatorships of all forms rely on providing 'stability'. However, the trade-offs for stability are the restrictions of things that people have grown accustomed to cherish - especially freedom of speech, a free press, and freedom of association. These are shared values across all cultures and countries. Once people have experienced these freedoms, it is very difficult to impose a system where they are taken away.

[Hardy99]

of course they want these reforms done as soon as possible, as they can run not their joke/circus/comedy any longer,

within a few months this country will be completely broke...

Please explain why you think the country will be broke, Current loans as a percentage of GDP are not that high. By stopping the rice scam quite a large sum of money will be saved there alone.

to believe in Santa clause and easter bunny is not forbidden...

When the martial law will get liftet you can see what happens,

if it not gets liftet Thailand will get tens of thousands of unemployed and

you will see Thailand real same some did wish, in the Position of Myanmar 5 years ago...

blocked and isolated from trade with western countries, Australia, Japan aso... ohh yeah there are

others like China.. they trade with Thailand already, Export Billions to Thailand and Import Peanuts...

China exports products to the Thai industries that they can produce to deliver to other countries,

but they will not anymore trade.. that will be the way to "be broke"..