Rules for Consonant Clusters / Tones

[SlyAnimal]

Hi All,
I've recently started studying Thai, and have joined a class where the others have already learnt to read and write, and the rules associated with it. However as I taught myself to read/write, I don't know the advanced rules and they're not going to cover it in class since that was the previous level.

I already know the basic rules regarding consonant clusers/tones, and doing a search online only yielded information regarding the easy rules. My wife tells me that "You just have to learn every word that has the special rule", but I'm sure that there will be a rule.... just they likely don't teach it to primary school kids (Much the same as they don't teach the fancy grammar rules to native English speaking kids).

So to clarify what I already know:

The general tone rules (High/Medium/Low consonants etc and how the length/ending/tone markers affect the tone)

ครับ or ครู or ปลา etc where the ร, ล or ว joins with the first syllable to create a new sound.

When อ or ห are silent at the start of a word to change the consonant to medium/high class

The rules which I'm after:

e.g. Here are some which I know the basics of how they work, but not exactly (In particular I don't know the exceptions to the rules, or how they specifically work)

รร = อั I think?

ทร = ซ

A high consonant, without a final sound, before a low consonant changes the low consonant to a high consonant

อัย = ไอ (e.g. changes it from a short to a long vowel)

แข which is then pronounced ขะ, as far as I can figure it out, this applies to all high consonants without tone markers/final consonants which have แ in front (Although there likely aren't many examples, but แสดง & น่าขยะแขยง spring to mind (which means it could also be caused by ง at the end of the last syllable in the word?)

(Edit: Oh and of course, how the rule works for double sounds on consonants e.g. when a consonant is the final consonant for one word, and the initial consonant for the next (Often happens with ต in particular, although others as well I'm sure, I just can't think of any examples off the top of my head).

I'm sure that there are lots more rules out there, and that there are more specifics to the above rules which I sorta know.

If anyone is able to assist me with this, it'd be greatly appreciated

I'm sure that I've come across something which explains all of these rules at some point in time, I just never took much notice as figured it'd be ages until I actually needed to do much writing lol.

[DavidMavec]

I learned the classes in a totally different way; each consonant follows a medium, high, or low rule, there are three groups. If it leads by ห (e.g. หล่อ) it will follow the high group (หล่อ would thus be pronounced with a low tone but ล่อ would be a falling tone since ล belongs to the low group.

In terms of clusters, there is a list of words where this is the case as well, for example, สมอง, whereas because ส is in the high group, the มอง syllable is pronounced rising, whereas if it were not there, มอง would be pronounced with a mid-tone because it belongs to a different group.

There are some exceptions but there are very few.

I am not sure if this is making sense to you, but the way I have learned has let me know the proper tone quite fluently by reading the word, after a good deal of practice of course. I have some sheets I could send you if you would find them useful

[SlyAnimal]

Thanks David, that's one of the rules which I need to learn (the one whereby the initial consonant's class is given to the proceeding consonants).

I know how it works with the silent ห & อ, and likewise about the consonant classes etc. But want to know the specifics about how an initial consonant changes the class of proceeding consonants which are part of a separate syllable (From the examples I've seen, it works if there the first consonant doesn't have any tone markers + no final consonant? But I'm not sure if that is correct or not, or if there are other exceptions to the rule?)

Also there are a few other rules which I want to know more about (see my initial post), where I know the basics of them, from having seen evidence of their effect, and as such have a general idea on how they work, but want to see if there is sorta more to it than what I know (e.g. a rule which specifies exclusions/inclusions etc).

[DavidMavec]

Thanks David, that's one of the rules which I need to learn (the one whereby the initial consonant's class is given to the proceeding consonants).

I know how it works with the silent ห & อ, and likewise about the consonant classes etc. But want to know the specifics about how an initial consonant changes the class of proceeding consonants which are part of a separate syllable (From the examples I've seen, it works if there the first consonant doesn't have any tone markers + no final consonant? But I'm not sure if that is correct or not, or if there are other exceptions to the rule?)

From what I understand you are saying, the way it works is that the second syllable follows the rule of the first syllable (first letter) instead of following the first letter of the second syllable as it would if it were not a consonant cluster.

For example, the second syllable of ฉลาม follows the rule for ฉ instead of ล, as it normally would if it were not this sort of cluster.

I do think that the person who told you it was necessary to learn the list of words like this was correct, and there are lists of these words available that I used when I was studying. It is a relatively small list as well.

[Richard W]

I know how it works with the silent ห & อ, and likewise about the consonant classes etc. But want to know the specifics about how an initial consonant changes the class of proceeding consonants which are part of a separate syllable (From the examples I've seen, it works if there the first consonant doesn't have any tone markers + no final consonant? But I'm not sure if that is correct or not, or if there are other exceptions to the rule?)

It's a lot simpler if you think of it as a single syllable with a cluster that Thais can't pronounce properly.

The best rule word initially I can find is that the combination is treated for tone purposes as a single syllable if it begins with ส or doesn't look Pali/Sanskrit. The effect only applies to English loans if they are old loans. This doesn't help at the end of a morpheme, where double-acting consonants tend to be treated as being in the same syllable as the following resonant, and therefore affect its tone.

Note that the effect only applies to a phonetic syllable starting with a resonant, i.e. /l/, /r/, /w/, /y/, /ŋ/, /n/, /n/. Thus เฉพาะ is [L]cha[HS]phaw. The effect can apply to what is clearly a separate following syllable, most notably words with an -am- or -amn- infix, as with the apparent compounds ตำรวจ [M]tam[L]ruat and กำเนิด [M]kam[LL]noet, but also in erratic words like กิเลส [L]ki[L]leet.

[eric67]

Something to read:

http://www.thai-language.com/ref/double-consonants

http://www.thai-language.com/ref/cluster-tone

[fire69water]

There are general tone rules and there are quirks. The examples you mentioned I would classified as quirks. ร has few quirks. One of them is รร. รร with a final consonant is pronounced -ัX where X is any final consonant. E.g., พรรค (political party), which is pronounced พัก. When it has no final consonant, it is pronounced as -ัน, e.g., บรรดา (all) is pronounced บันดา.

ทร is ซ but not always. Sometimes it is pronounced as ทอ. When used as English, it is pronounced like Tr-. So your wife is right here. You have to know the words.

The other examples you mentioned, แสดง and แขยง, are what I called "borrowed storage of vowels". The vowel in front does not belong to the first consonant but to the second one. The first consonant merely has an implied vowel of -ะ. The implied -ะ is unstressed so it is a short mid tone. So 'borrowed storage of vowels" seems to be for those two syllabled words, the first syllable being an implied -ะ and the second being a syllable with vowels of -เ or -แ. I wonder why they don't include ขโมย (thief) because I find the default letter space between ข and โ quite ugly. โขมย looks better, doesn't it?

[SlyAnimal]

Thanks guys I think I should have these pretty much sorted now

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Richard W]

I wonder why they don't include ขโมย (thief) because I find the default letter space between ข and โ quite ugly. โขมย looks better, doesn't it?

ขโมย is pronounced [L]kha[M]mooi. *โขมย would be pronounced [L]kha[R]mooi.

[fire69water]

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I wonder why they don't include ขโมย (thief) because I find the default letter space between ข and โ quite ugly. โขมย looks better, doesn't it?

ขโมย is pronounced [L]kha[M]mooi. *โขมย would be pronounced [L]kha[R]mooi

That's true, but Thais do make exceptions to their tonal rules. Furthermore, there is no word with [L]kha[R]mooi. But the point is moot. Probably, I'm the only one who finds the extra letter space unsightly.

[mja1906]

DavidMavec, would it be possible for you to send me the sheets you have? I'm also trying to get my head round the consonant cluster rules, I have bits of information/rules from different places, would be great if there was one scrib sheet that had everything, in a easy to understand format- if such a document out there exists?

I learned the classes in a totally different way; each consonant follows a medium, high, or low rule, there are three groups. If it leads by ห (e.g. หล่อ) it will follow the high group (หล่อ would thus be pronounced with a low tone but ล่อ would be a falling tone since ล belongs to the low group.

In terms of clusters, there is a list of words where this is the case as well, for example, สมอง, whereas because ส is in the high group, the มอง syllable is pronounced rising, whereas if it were not there, มอง would be pronounced with a mid-tone because it belongs to a different group.

There are some exceptions but there are very few.

I am not sure if this is making sense to you, but the way I have learned has let me know the proper tone quite fluently by reading the word, after a good deal of practice of course. I have some sheets I could send you if you would find them useful

[SlyAnimal]

Hi mja1906,

I've attached a copy of the tone rules to this post, it's the one which I found the most helpful of the various ones available online.

Also I eventually found out most of the rules I was looking for when I started this thread, a brief summary is below:

ทร = ซ

รร = อั

When there is a high class consonant infront of a mid/low class consonant, without a tone marker / vowel / final consonant (e.g. just a "sa" or "ka" etc sound), then it changes the class of the following consonant cluster.

There are some words e.g. แสดง where the first consonant actually comes "infront" of the vowel, and so is actually pronounced "Sa Dang" rather than "Sair Dong". As far as I could find out, these don't have a specific rule to identify them, they are just words you have to learn.

At some point I want to create a sticky explaining the tones / tone rules etc in more detail, I've finished class for the next 2 weeks, so will hopefully have some free time to put something up

Edit: Changed สร to ทร as noticed I'd made a mistake

Tone Rules Table.pdf

[GotR1GHT]

Hmm that tone rules table looks too complicated.Here is the one that looks a bit simpler(at least in my opinion)

http://letstalkthai.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/completeToneRules.jpg

You can basically remember that image,and within a week a practice reading book it will stay in your brain

[SiSePuede419]

I'm currently trying to figure out why ว has two different ending sounds in Thai.

For example, it sounds like 'ew' in the Thai Word for eyebrow: คิ้ว

And it sounds like 'ow' in many Thai words:

Long ยาว

Cat เเมว

Drunk เมว

Take เอว

Glass เเก้ว

Hint เเกว

My current Thai teacher claims she doesn't hear the 'ow' sound and doesn't know where I got that misconception???

Uh, from my ears.

I swear, getting a straight answer from a Thai teacher is about as easy as getting your dog to explain Physics.

[SiSePuede419]

"When อ or ห are silent at the start of a word to change the consonant to medium/high class"

My limited understanding, so far:

1. อ at the start of a word doesn't change the class to middle, because it already is a middle class consonant.

2. When อ is at the beginning of a word, it is silent.

3. When อ appears after a consonant with sera uu (the half moon with two antenna ) over it, it is also silent.

4. When อ appears after a consonant without a vowel in front or over it, it acts like a vowel and is pronounced 'aaw'.

5. อ is also part of a two different short/long combination vowel clusters that has no equivalent in English, roughly pronounced:

A. 'uht' and 'uuht'

B. 'u-ah' and 'uu-ah'

[wprime]

แข which is then pronounced ขะ, as far as I can figure it out, this applies to all high consonants without tone markers/final consonants which have แ in front (Although there likely aren't many examples, but แสดง & น่าขยะแขยง spring to mind (which means it could also be caused by ง at the end of the last syllable in the word?)

This isn't to do with the แ. The default vowel sound where no ending consonant is present is อะ, the ส in แสดง has no vowel or ending consonant (the แ is part of แดง) and as such takes the vowel อะ.

It happens with other vowels, e.g. โขนง is pronounced as ขะโนง.

[eric67]

I'm currently trying to figure out why ว has two different ending sounds in Thai.

For example, it sounds like 'ew' in the Thai Word for eyebrow: คิ้ว

And it sounds like 'ow' in many Thai words:

Long ยาว

Cat เเมว

Drunk เมว

Take เอว

Glass เเก้ว

Hint เเกว

My current Thai teacher claims she doesn't hear the 'ow' sound and doesn't know where I got that misconception???

Uh, from my ears.

I swear, getting a straight answer from a Thai teacher is about as easy as getting your dog to explain Physics.

Your teacher is right, these are all different sounds.

You misspelled drunk and take, those should be เมา and เอา

From the other words the only one that sounds like ow is: long ยาว

Have a look here, under 4, /w/ glide endings:

http://www.thai-language.com/ref/vowels

[Richard W]

I'm currently trying to figure out why ว has two different ending sounds in Thai.

For example, it sounds like 'ew' in the Thai Word for eyebrow: คิ้ว

And it sounds like 'ow' in many Thai words:

Long ยาว

Cat เเมว

Drunk เมว

Take เอว

Glass เเก้ว

Hint เเกว

My current Thai teacher claims she doesn't hear the 'ow' sound and doesn't know

where I got that misconception???

There are actually three different sounds in that list - the aew sound, the ao sound (short first element, long second element) and the aao sound (long first element, short second element.

However, all four sounds consist of a vowel sound plus the final ว sound. And its just a matter of history that เมา and เอา don't have a ว.

[Richard W]

"When อ or ห are silent at the start of a word to change the consonant to medium/high class"

My limited understanding, so far:

1. อ at the start of a word doesn't change the class to middle, because it already is a middle class consonant.

There are four words beginning อย with no vowel sound between the consonants (อย่า, อย่าง, อยาก, อยู่). The only effect of อ in these words is on the tone.

2. When อ is at the beginning of a word, it is silent.

Significantly, that silence is there even when another word precedes. That is different to English.