Israel, Hamas on collision course as clashes escalate

[Morch]

US aid is conditional that over 80% or something is spend on US products, hardly a burden in comparison to aid given to Palestinians or Egypt which sees no returns, only burning US flags and celebration of American deaths

Very impressive figures...and aid to Egypt etc. Ridiculous even to compare wt aid to Israel over the years.

Israel gets way too much Aid funding from the USA, especially with the USA economics not being at their finest hour.

What does this have to do with the current round of hostilities between the Hamas and Israel?

No way Israel's gonna compromise or even have a serious talks about Palestine. As long as USA keeps supporting,tolerating Israel¨s criminal behaviour there will be terrorists and war.

Which talks would these be? And with whom?

The current fighting is not Israel vs. the PA, but Hamas vs. Israel.

The same Hamas and PA that are having trouble ironing out their differences.

[Pralaad]

Indeed it's a mess but any Palestinian state would include Gaza and wb elements.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Right now, it doesn't seem like the Palestinians can even iron out their domestic differences.

Israel sure does stall when it comes to negotiations, but the current political situation between

the PA and Hamas doesn't exactly invoke must trust that there's a unified Palestinian stand on

the best way to reach an agreement with Israel.

Does mean all hope is lost, just that it is not around the corner. Probably not even on the next

block.

As I consider you very knowledgeable on these matters I'm pleased to hear you still think there is hope for a two state solution in the long term. Because I don't.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I have no idea which shape this solution will take, and my version of long term is probably too long to be called

optimistic. Looking back on history, most conflicts get resolved one way or another. With time, there is a certain

improvement in the way such things get done (that is less total annihilation, selling of captives into slavery and

that sort of thing). These things take time, lots of it.

There was some discussion recently which brought up some of David Ben-Gurion's quotes, so here is another

which may fit - "In Israel, in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles." (Interview on CBS, 5.10.1956).

Morch peace deal can be reached providing Palestinians actually want peace, which they do not.

They have had years of aid and help and yet have done very little for their economy.

If taking away Gaza and Hamas(hypothetically speaking), Peace can be reached without East Jerusalem being their capital.

Once peace is signed and they have proven to have full control of their people and genuinely want to live in peace side by side, they can return back and ask for East Jerusalem to be their capital,

But keep in mind, they need to prove they can live in peace and control the borders.

A boxer, after loosing the title fight, does not come back for another title fight the next day.

He goes back to training, has a number of standard fights, before given a chance for a title shot again.

On the other hand, with Hamas being present, peace will never be achieved, no matter the circumstances, as one can not reason with unreasonable people.

Then inside Hamas you also have other terror groups, which add more fuel.

.

[Pralaad]

If hamas did not stop the attacks then why is Israel continuing to build settlements in east jerusalem and other areas that are not controlled by hamas ? Settlement building in east jerusalem and other areas in which israel faces no danger from is not only condemned by US, EU and UN but also a blockade to a viable two state solution.

What does Hamas have to do with East Jerusalem? Has Jerusalem been moved to Gaza?

Hamas never stopped firing rockets, they occasionally slow down or have a few day breaks.

Hamas has not recognized Israel and has vowed to destroy Israel.

Hamas does not want peace with Israel,

Yes they continue to build and more arabs continue to move to Israel and live a productive life.

Does not mean i agree with more building, but it also does not mean i disagree.

The way i see it is, peace for land. There is no peace, there is no land.

You say Israel faces no danger? have you seen the latest news? In case you have not, the riots are in East Jerusalem.

Israel also pulled out of Gaza and did it provide security for Israel?

[Morch]

That's a new one. Based on an "equal" share of land. Where did that come from? I agree Palestinians deserve a state but given the long history of Arab wars determined at driving the Jews into the sea, I'd say if it is ever going to happen, they'll have to settle for something ... less. In other words, get real. Yes Israel has a strong military ... why is that ... because if they didn't there would be no Israel in that neighborhood, and everyone knows that.

Land share based on 1967 borders would be a good start.

Israel did made an offer peace for land which was refused by all Arab states. Eventually Egypt signed peace treaty and got Sinnai back.

In case you have not noticed it takes 2 to tango, they missed their boat.

Would 2 million arabs with Israeli passport be willing to relocate? i seriously doubt it

Has Hamas stopped its attacks? No it has not.

Has PA changed its school education of hatred? No they have not.

Can not sit on 2 chairs with one tuhas

If hamas did not stop the attacks then why is Israel continuing to build settlements in east jerusalem and other areas that are not controlled by hamas ? Settlement building in east jerusalem and other areas in which israel faces no danger from is not only condemned by US, EU and UN but also a blockade to a viable two state solution.

Israel building more settlements and expanding existing ones is wrong. Not much argument there.

Also doesn't serve any constructive purpose, and will end up costing a lot of lives and money.

On the same note, one could ask why does the PA does not resort to firing rockets etc.?

Hamas's answer to this is basically something like "because they got no balls". The PA's

version is that the path of diplomacy serves them better (at least in the present) and that

time is on the Palestinian's side anyway.

So again, what does the building of Israeli settlements illegal or otherwise, got to do with

the current round of hostilities vs. the Hamas? If Israel stopped building right now, what

effect would this have on the fighting? Did Hamas officially declare it would agree to settle

for less than the whole real-estate? Did Hamas agree to cease the armed struggle as part

of the re-unification agreement with the PA?

[Pralaad]

Thai fireworks cause more casualties!

I see, so in layman's term if one tries to kill but misses or does not succeed, he gets a free pass and does not get charged for attempted murder?

[Morch]

Right now, it doesn't seem like the Palestinians can even iron out their domestic differences.

Israel sure does stall when it comes to negotiations, but the current political situation between

the PA and Hamas doesn't exactly invoke must trust that there's a unified Palestinian stand on

the best way to reach an agreement with Israel.

Does mean all hope is lost, just that it is not around the corner. Probably not even on the next

block.

As I consider you very knowledgeable on these matters I'm pleased to hear you still think there is hope for a two state solution in the long term. Because I don't.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I have no idea which shape this solution will take, and my version of long term is probably too long to be called

optimistic. Looking back on history, most conflicts get resolved one way or another. With time, there is a certain

improvement in the way such things get done (that is less total annihilation, selling of captives into slavery and

that sort of thing). These things take time, lots of it.

There was some discussion recently which brought up some of David Ben-Gurion's quotes, so here is another

which may fit - "In Israel, in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles." (Interview on CBS, 5.10.1956).

Morch peace deal can be reached providing Palestinians actually want peace, which they do not.

They have had years of aid and help and yet have done very little for their economy.

If taking away Gaza and Hamas(hypothetically speaking), Peace can be reached without East Jerusalem being their capital.

Once peace is signed and they have proven to have full control of their people and genuinely want to live in peace side by side, they can return back and ask for East Jerusalem to be their capital,

But keep in mind, they need to prove they can live in peace and control the borders.

A boxer, after loosing the title fight, does not come back for another title fight the next day.

He goes back to training, has a number of standard fights, before given a chance for a title shot again.

On the other hand, with Hamas being present, peace will never be achieved, no matter the circumstances, as one can not reason with unreasonable people.

Then inside Hamas you also have other terror groups, which add more fuel.

.

Well, I'm also of the opinion that Israel did not go the full mile when it comes to all them peace talks, negotiations and

agreements. Nor is Israel a good neighbor, a trustworthy partner, a willing participant or whatever.

Things were messy to start with, and got messier over the years. Doesn't look like there's someone around right now

who can sort it out. Certainly no inspiring leadership on both sides, and for a while now. Laying all the blame or most

of it on one side is both wrong and pointless. Digging up the sins of the past is all very interesting, but does not really

contribute much to finding a present day solution.

The attitude you present, which basically says the Palestinian need to prove their worthiness, is just another way of

putting up conditions which will never be met. The same goes for Palestinian conditions which basically amount to

accepting unreasonable key demands. This tells me that so far, no side is really prepared to make the compormises

needed to get started in sorting out this mess.

I agree that Hamas & Co. are a great obstacle in achieving any real diplomatic progress. On the Israeli side, the far

right, the West Bank settlers and some of the Orthodox Jews are acting in the same role, when it comes down to the

chances for peace.

[Wat dee]

Thai fireworks cause more casualties!

I see, so in layman's term if one tries to kill but misses or does not succeed, he gets a free pass and does not get charged for attempted murder?

So, in layman's terms. Death penalty for attempted murder and let's convict randomly.

See the death toll and tell me who's receiving the blows.

[Pralaad]

Thai fireworks cause more casualties!

I see, so in layman's term if one tries to kill but misses or does not succeed, he gets a free pass and does not get charged for attempted murder?

So, in layman's terms. Death penalty for attempted murder and let's convict randomly.

See the death toll and tell me who's receiving the blows.

Please stop with the nonsense already.

Those firing rockets are not shooting it to break the ground, they are shooting rockets to kill, mass kills.

You may struggle to understand, but rocket and bullet is not the same.

You want to talk about death toll? then why do not you look up at deaths caused by Muslims on Muslims

If you still want to continue to talk about death toll, you can also always ask Hamas why they fire rockets from the heart of civilian locations and use civilians as human shields.

If that fails, you can ask them, since they have no plans to stop the attacks, how many bomb shelters have they built and what warning systems have they installed

[Wat dee]

Thai fireworks cause more casualties!

I see, so in layman's term if one tries to kill but misses or does not succeed, he gets a free pass and does not get charged for attempted murder?

So, in layman's terms. Death penalty for attempted murder and let's convict randomly.

See the death toll and tell me who's receiving the blows.

Please stop with the nonsense already.

Those firing rockets are not shooting it to break the ground, they are shooting rockets to kill, mass kills.

You may struggle to understand, but rocket and bullet is not the same.

You want to talk about death toll? then why do not you look up at deaths caused by Muslims on Muslims

If you still want to continue to talk about death toll, you can also always ask Hamas why they fire rockets from the heart of civilian locations and use civilians as human shields.

If that fails, you can ask them, since they have no plans to stop the attacks, how many bomb shelters have they built and what warning systems have they installed

If I lived there,I too would build a shelter. Unfortunately it is most likely to be waste of time! Just a matter of time when gang of thugs builds a new settlement on top of it! And if you want to know who are the real top predators....Christians.Just the last hunt for the nukes caused deaths of 1000.000 iraqi child and infant.

Shalom and good night!

[Morch]

Please stop with the nonsense already.

Those firing rockets are not shooting it to break the ground, they are shooting rockets to kill, mass kills.

You may struggle to understand, but rocket and bullet is not the same.

You want to talk about death toll? then why do not you look up at deaths caused by Muslims on Muslims

If you still want to continue to talk about death toll, you can also always ask Hamas why they fire rockets from the heart of civilian locations and use civilians as human shields.

If that fails, you can ask them, since they have no plans to stop the attacks, how many bomb shelters have they built and what warning systems have they installed

If I lived there,I too would build a shelter. Unfortunately it is most likely to be waste of time! Just a matter of time when gang of thugs builds a new settlement on top of it! And if you want to know who are the real top predators....Christians.Just the last hunt for the nukes caused deaths of 1000.000 iraqi child and infant.

Shalom and good night!

I think Pralaad's point was that the Hamas does not really invest that much in protecting the citizens under its control.

As Israel does not have settlements in the Gaza Strip, having pulled out back in 2006, your reasoning about them being

pointless is flawed.

[Pralaad]

If I lived there,I too would build a shelter. Unfortunately it is most likely to be waste of time! Just a matter of time when gang of thugs builds a new settlement on top of it! And if you want to know who are the real top predators....Christians.Just the last hunt for the nukes caused deaths of 1000.000 iraqi child and infant.

Shalom and good night!

More nonsense

There are settlements in Gaza being built? since when?

So its the Christians now who are the killers?

Just for your records

“some 11,000,000 Muslims have been violently killed since 1948, of which 35,000, or 0.3 percent, died during the sixty years of fighting Israel, or just 1 out of every 315 Muslim fatalities. In contrast, over 90 percent of the 11 million who perished were killed by fellow Muslims.

[shariq607]

If hamas did not stop the attacks then why is Israel continuing to build settlements in east jerusalem and other areas that are not controlled by hamas ? Settlement building in east jerusalem and other areas in which israel faces no danger from is not only condemned by US, EU and UN but also a blockade to a viable two state solution.

What does Hamas have to do with East Jerusalem? Has Jerusalem been moved to Gaza?

Hamas never stopped firing rockets, they occasionally slow down or have a few day breaks.

Hamas has not recognized Israel and has vowed to destroy Israel.

Hamas does not want peace with Israel,

Yes they continue to build and more arabs continue to move to Israel and live a productive life.

Does not mean i agree with more building, but it also does not mean i disagree.

The way i see it is, peace for land. There is no peace, there is no land.

You say Israel faces no danger? have you seen the latest news? In case you have not, the riots are in East Jerusalem.

Israel also pulled out of Gaza and did it provide security for Israel?

What i meant was, rockets are being fired from gaza which is controlled by hamas but israel is expanding settlements in areas that are not controlled by hamas but PA who prefer diplomacy over hamas policy of an eye for an eye.

Riots does not mean build more settlements. Abbas this time was serious for a peace deal backed by John kerry but we all know some hawks in the netanyahu's government do not want such peace deals.

[Pralaad]

If hamas did not stop the attacks then why is Israel continuing to build settlements in east jerusalem and other areas that are not controlled by hamas ? Settlement building in east jerusalem and other areas in which israel faces no danger from is not only condemned by US, EU and UN but also a blockade to a viable two state solution.

What does Hamas have to do with East Jerusalem? Has Jerusalem been moved to Gaza?

Hamas never stopped firing rockets, they occasionally slow down or have a few day breaks.

Hamas has not recognized Israel and has vowed to destroy Israel.

Hamas does not want peace with Israel,

Yes they continue to build and more arabs continue to move to Israel and live a productive life.

Does not mean i agree with more building, but it also does not mean i disagree.

The way i see it is, peace for land. There is no peace, there is no land.

You say Israel faces no danger? have you seen the latest news? In case you have not, the riots are in East Jerusalem.

Israel also pulled out of Gaza and did it provide security for Israel?

What i meant was, rockets are being fired from gaza which is controlled by hamas but israel is expanding settlements in areas that are not controlled by hamas but PA who prefer diplomacy over hamas policy of an eye for an eye.

Riots does not mean build more settlements. Abbas this time was serious for a peace deal backed by John kerry but we all know some hawks in the netanyahu's government do not want such peace deals.

Yes its true PA does prefer diplomacy, but the very same PA went ahead to make unity government with Hamas.

The very same PA wants East Jerusalem, which i believe is non negotiable among a number of other pre-conditions.

You can not blame Israeli government solely, as PA sets its conditions and not willing to compromise, only Israel holds all the aces like it or not,not other way around,

[Johpa]

If hamas did not stop the attacks then why is Israel continuing to build settlements in east jerusalem and other areas that are not controlled by hamas ? Settlement building in east jerusalem and other areas in which israel faces no danger from is not only condemned by US, EU and UN but also a blockade to a viable two state solution.

The new settlements have been an abomination since the mid 1970s. Concurrently, the concept of a two-state solution has been a ridiculous pipedream since the mid-1970s as the West Bank and Gaza combined don't create a viable nation-state. Gaza had been a rather singular mess since 1948 when the Egyptians took control for nearly 20 years and, refusing to integrate the area, turned a once viable town and surrounding region into a refugee camp as, unlike the West Bank population, there are some linguistic and cultural difference between the Levantine Arabs in Gaza and the Egyptians.

[Pakboong]

We all seem to be repeating old songs so why not.

The struggle is like a chess match between Bobby Fischer and Gomer Pyle. Israel has at least a 40 pt average IQ advantage which everyone on the forum alludes to in these threads without having to spell it out. True or not, the pro-Israeli posters and the Israeli Jews believe it to be true. The Israelis have the most competent intelligence operations in the world. In Gaza, there are more agents and CIs per square meter than anywhere in the world. The area is under constant surveillance from the air via drone and satellites. I continue to maintain that the only reason these rockets get launched, without somebody stopping them in the act, is that the Israelis want these rockets to be launched.

They rarely hit anything. These rockets are not guided but they should be able to hit a town. The mortars can be fairly accurate but they also never seem to hit anything. An entire case of mortar rounds can be fired in a couple of minutes but these mortar rounds are never counted and we don't know what size and make the mortars are but we collectively believe these mortar rounds are smuggled in from places like Iran. Again they never seem to hit anything. Again the question is, why are the Iranians not smuggling in a guided capability that can do more damage? What would be the point of smuggling weapons and munitions that have little or no chance of being effective?

I have worked with the Israelis, they would never let these rockets get off the ground unless they wanted these rockets launched. We are talking about tens of thousands of worthless rockets of which over 95% land in the desert.

[Ulysses G.]

If hamas did not stop the attacks then why is Israel continuing to build settlements in east jerusalem and other areas that are not controlled by hamas ?

If I was in charge of Israel, I would never give the Arabs any part of Jerusalem, but, in the past, they have agreed to give the Palestinians East Jerusalem in an informal agreement in 2003 and have also proposed making all of Jerusalem an open city or allowing international supervision of Jerusalem's holy sites. The Israelis have already proved that they are willing to trade land for peace and that they will move any settlers off the land, before turning it over. As far as I am concerned, the settlements are meant as motivation for the Palestinians to stop stalling and sign a peace agreement, before it is too late.

[Scott]

A post containing a slur has been removed. Please exercise care in the terms used to refer to a group of people.

[Pralaad]

We all seem to be repeating old songs so why not.

The struggle is like a chess match between Bobby Fischer and Gomer Pyle. Israel has at least a 40 pt average IQ advantage which everyone on the forum alludes to in these threads without having to spell it out. True or not, the pro-Israeli posters and the Israeli Jews believe it to be true. The Israelis have the most competent intelligence operations in the world. In Gaza, there are more agents and CIs per square meter than anywhere in the world. The area is under constant surveillance from the air via drone and satellites. I continue to maintain that the only reason these rockets get launched, without somebody stopping them in the act, is that the Israelis want these rockets to be launched.

They rarely hit anything. These rockets are not guided but they should be able to hit a town. The mortars can be fairly accurate but they also never seem to hit anything. An entire case of mortar rounds can be fired in a couple of minutes but these mortar rounds are never counted and we don't know what size and make the mortars are but we collectively believe these mortar rounds are smuggled in from places like Iran. Again they never seem to hit anything. Again the question is, why are the Iranians not smuggling in a guided capability that can do more damage? What would be the point of smuggling weapons and munitions that have little or no chance of being effective?

I have worked with the Israelis, they would never let these rockets get off the ground unless they wanted these rockets launched. We are talking about tens of thousands of worthless rockets of which over 95% land in the desert.

If rockets never hit anything, what is the point of keep on firing them?

Why Iranians are not smuggling better rockets? because they can not, but have tried and keep on trying.

Why does not Hamas make better rockets? they would if they could, but due to blockades and tough security they can not

What is the point of smuggling weapons that have little or no chance of being effective? it is a million dollar question, giving opportunity to smuggle better weapons, you do not think they would?

[Ulysses G.]

If rockets never hit anything, what is the point of keep on firing them?

They have caused numerous deaths, thousands of injuries and lots of property damage, but their their main purpose is the creation of widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life among the Israeli populace. In other words, terrorism.

[NeverSure]

-snip-

Once peace is signed and they have proven to have full control of their people and genuinely want to live in peace side by side, they can return back and ask for East Jerusalem to be their capital,

But keep in mind, they need to prove they can live in peace and control the borders.

This is what a lot of the fighting is about.

East Jerusalem contains some of the holiest sites in the ME in the eyes of both Muslims and Jews. There is no hope that Israel will give it up. There is little hope that the Muslims will quit trying to get it.

"E. Jerusalem contains Jerusalem's Old City and some of the holiest sites of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, such as the Temple Mount, Western Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre." LINK

There is now a Muslim temple on the temple site, and Jews and Christians believe it is the site of the Biblical temple where so many important events are said to have happened. Understanding that most Jews never accepted that Christ was the Messiah prophesied in their Old Testament, but many did and split off into Christianity, It is easy to see why Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe that this is one of their holiest sites.

One way or the other, Muslims, Jews and Christians all have the Old Testament in their religion, and this is the site of many sentinel events. (Muslims believe the Old Testament was tampered with and trust the Qur'an more.) All have E. Jerusalem and at least the temple site as holy and necessary.

[simple1]

@Morch: Back in 2006 Hamas stated they would recognise the State of Israel within the 1967 borders. Why was this position reversed?

"The Hamas movement is ready to recognize agreements signed with Israel, and in fact recognize Israel, but only within the '67 borders, senior Hamas member Khaled Suleiman said Wednesday.

According to Suleiman, the movement will be ready to accept a Palestinian state inside the '67 borders and will not operate to thwart diplomatic negotiations held by Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3249568,00.html

In another topic you referenced 'maps'. Can't remember, which negotiation, but not long ago whereby it was claimed a mutually acceptable two State agreement was only weeks away, based upon finalising the 'maps', but collapsed as Palestinian elections did not allow for sufficient time to finalise matters.

For those interested below is the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs version of the timetable and issues for the various negotiations.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/israel-palestinian%20negotiations.aspx

[Pralaad]

-snip-

Once peace is signed and they have proven to have full control of their people and genuinely want to live in peace side by side, they can return back and ask for East Jerusalem to be their capital,

But keep in mind, they need to prove they can live in peace and control the borders.

This is what a lot of the fighting is about.

East Jerusalem contains some of the holiest sites in the ME in the eyes of both Muslims and Jews. There is no hope that Israel will give it up. There is little hope that the Muslims will quit trying to get it.

"E. Jerusalem contains Jerusalem's Old City and some of the holiest sites of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, such as the Temple Mount, Western Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre." LINK

There is now a Muslim temple on the temple site, and Jews and Christians believe it is the site of the Biblical temple where so many important events are said to have happened. Understanding that most Jews never accepted that Christ was the Messiah prophesied in their Old Testament, but many did and split off into Christianity, It is easy to see why Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe that this is one of their holiest sites.

One way or the other, Muslims, Jews and Christians all have the Old Testament in their religion, and this is the site of many sentinel events. (Muslims believe the Old Testament was tampered with and trust the Qur'an more.) All have E. Jerusalem and at least the temple site as holy and necessary.

Truth is Jerusalem has little meaning to Arabs from religious point of you, they prey facing Mecca, not only that Jerusalem is not directly mentioned by name in the Qur'an nor is it mentioned by its Arabic translation.

so its more of a point maker for Pals instead of its being a real meaning.

[shariq607]

-snip-

Once peace is signed and they have proven to have full control of their people and genuinely want to live in peace side by side, they can return back and ask for East Jerusalem to be their capital,

But keep in mind, they need to prove they can live in peace and control the borders.

This is what a lot of the fighting is about.

East Jerusalem contains some of the holiest sites in the ME in the eyes of both Muslims and Jews. There is no hope that Israel will give it up. There is little hope that the Muslims will quit trying to get it.

"E. Jerusalem contains Jerusalem's Old City and some of the holiest sites of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, such as the Temple Mount, Western Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre." LINK

There is now a Muslim temple on the temple site, and Jews and Christians believe it is the site of the Biblical temple where so many important events are said to have happened. Understanding that most Jews never accepted that Christ was the Messiah prophesied in their Old Testament, but many did and split off into Christianity, It is easy to see why Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe that this is one of their holiest sites.

One way or the other, Muslims, Jews and Christians all have the Old Testament in their religion, and this is the site of many sentinel events. (Muslims believe the Old Testament was tampered with and trust the Qur'an more.) All have E. Jerusalem and at least the temple site as holy and necessary.

Truth is Jerusalem has little meaning to Arabs from religious point of you, they prey facing Mecca, not only that Jerusalem is not directly mentioned by name in the Qur'an nor is it mentioned by its Arabic translation.

so its more of a point maker for Pals instead of its being a real meaning.

Its not truth, its your opinion i will give you a reference from Quran where its clearly mentioned.

Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram (Mecca) to al-Masjid al- Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.And We gave Moses the Scripture and made it a guidance for the Children of Israel that you not take other than Me as Disposer of affairs. Quran 17'1-2

Al masjid al Aqsa as you know is only in Jerusalem.

And before Muslims faced mecca, they used to face Jerusalem when they prayed, just shows how equally important Jerusalem is to Muslims as it is to Christians and Jews.

[Pralaad]

-snip-

Once peace is signed and they have proven to have full control of their people and genuinely want to live in peace side by side, they can return back and ask for East Jerusalem to be their capital,

But keep in mind, they need to prove they can live in peace and control the borders.

This is what a lot of the fighting is about.

East Jerusalem contains some of the holiest sites in the ME in the eyes of both Muslims and Jews. There is no hope that Israel will give it up. There is little hope that the Muslims will quit trying to get it.

"E. Jerusalem contains Jerusalem's Old City and some of the holiest sites of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, such as the Temple Mount, Western Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre." LINK

There is now a Muslim temple on the temple site, and Jews and Christians believe it is the site of the Biblical temple where so many important events are said to have happened. Understanding that most Jews never accepted that Christ was the Messiah prophesied in their Old Testament, but many did and split off into Christianity, It is easy to see why Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe that this is one of their holiest sites.

One way or the other, Muslims, Jews and Christians all have the Old Testament in their religion, and this is the site of many sentinel events. (Muslims believe the Old Testament was tampered with and trust the Qur'an more.) All have E. Jerusalem and at least the temple site as holy and necessary.

Truth is Jerusalem has little meaning to Arabs from religious point of you, they prey facing Mecca, not only that Jerusalem is not directly mentioned by name in the Qur'an nor is it mentioned by its Arabic translation.

so its more of a point maker for Pals instead of its being a real meaning.

Its not truth, its your opinion i will give you a reference from Quran where its clearly mentioned.

Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram (Mecca) to al-Masjid al- Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.And We gave Moses the Scripture and made it a guidance for the Children of Israel that you not take other than Me as Disposer of affairs. Quran 17'1-2

Al masjid al Aqsa as you know is only in Jerusalem.

And before Muslims faced mecca, they used to face Jerusalem when they prayed, just shows how equally important Jerusalem is to Muslims as it is to Christians and Jews.

It is not MY opinion, but documented fact

After Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia, Jerusalem is considered the third holiest city in Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_significance_of_Jerusalem

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2012/02/muslim-scholar-explains-why-jerusalem.html#.U7z_FZSSwrU

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2012/02/claiming-jerusalem-is-in-the-koran

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/06/jerusalem-is-not-mentioned-in-the-koran-even-once-you-cant-rewrite-the-koran-on-air-on-al-jazeera

PS. al-masjid al-Aqsa is a mosque located in Jerusalem, it is not Jerusalem

[simple1]

Some TV members may like to read this POV:

The Significance of Jerusalem: A Muslim Perspective.

http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=646

[shariq607]

-snip-

Once peace is signed and they have proven to have full control of their people and genuinely want to live in peace side by side, they can return back and ask for East Jerusalem to be their capital,

But keep in mind, they need to prove they can live in peace and control the borders.

This is what a lot of the fighting is about.

East Jerusalem contains some of the holiest sites in the ME in the eyes of both Muslims and Jews. There is no hope that Israel will give it up. There is little hope that the Muslims will quit trying to get it.

"E. Jerusalem contains Jerusalem's Old City and some of the holiest sites of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, such as the Temple Mount, Western Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre." LINK

There is now a Muslim temple on the temple site, and Jews and Christians believe it is the site of the Biblical temple where so many important events are said to have happened. Understanding that most Jews never accepted that Christ was the Messiah prophesied in their Old Testament, but many did and split off into Christianity, It is easy to see why Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe that this is one of their holiest sites.

One way or the other, Muslims, Jews and Christians all have the Old Testament in their religion, and this is the site of many sentinel events. (Muslims believe the Old Testament was tampered with and trust the Qur'an more.) All have E. Jerusalem and at least the temple site as holy and necessary.

Truth is Jerusalem has little meaning to Arabs from religious point of you, they prey facing Mecca, not only that Jerusalem is not directly mentioned by name in the Qur'an nor is it mentioned by its Arabic translation.

so its more of a point maker for Pals instead of its being a real meaning.

Its not truth, its your opinion i will give you a reference from Quran where its clearly mentioned.

Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram (Mecca) to al-Masjid al- Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.And We gave Moses the Scripture and made it a guidance for the Children of Israel that you not take other than Me as Disposer of affairs. Quran 17'1-2

Al masjid al Aqsa as you know is only in Jerusalem.

And before Muslims faced mecca, they used to face Jerusalem when they prayed, just shows how equally important Jerusalem is to Muslims as it is to Christians and Jews.

It is not MY opinion, but documented fact

After Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia, Jerusalem is considered the third holiest city in Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_significance_of_Jerusalem

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2012/02/muslim-scholar-explains-why-jerusalem.html#.U7z_FZSSwrU

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2012/02/claiming-jerusalem-is-in-the-koran

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/06/jerusalem-is-not-mentioned-in-the-koran-even-once-you-cant-rewrite-the-koran-on-air-on-al-jazeera

PS. al-masjid al-Aqsa is a mosque located in Jerusalem, it is not Jerusalem

Wow, providing sources from uncredible sources such as wikipedia which anyone can edit and from anti Islamic websites doesn't make it a fact. I gave you a direct reference from the quran.

[3NUMBAS]

news bulletins in the UK would have nothing much to say without the fighting in the middle east somewhere

[Pakboong]

We all seem to be repeating old songs so why not.

The struggle is like a chess match between Bobby Fischer and Gomer Pyle. Israel has at least a 40 pt average IQ advantage which everyone on the forum alludes to in these threads without having to spell it out. True or not, the pro-Israeli posters and the Israeli Jews believe it to be true. The Israelis have the most competent intelligence operations in the world. In Gaza, there are more agents and CIs per square meter than anywhere in the world. The area is under constant surveillance from the air via drone and satellites. I continue to maintain that the only reason these rockets get launched, without somebody stopping them in the act, is that the Israelis want these rockets to be launched.

They rarely hit anything. These rockets are not guided but they should be able to hit a town. The mortars can be fairly accurate but they also never seem to hit anything. An entire case of mortar rounds can be fired in a couple of minutes but these mortar rounds are never counted and we don't know what size and make the mortars are but we collectively believe these mortar rounds are smuggled in from places like Iran. Again they never seem to hit anything. Again the question is, why are the Iranians not smuggling in a guided capability that can do more damage? What would be the point of smuggling weapons and munitions that have little or no chance of being effective?

I have worked with the Israelis, they would never let these rockets get off the ground unless they wanted these rockets launched. We are talking about tens of thousands of worthless rockets of which over 95% land in the desert.

If rockets never hit anything, what is the point of keep on firing them?

Why Iranians are not smuggling better rockets? because they can not, but have tried and keep on trying.

Why does not Hamas make better rockets? they would if they could, but due to blockades and tough security they can not

What is the point of smuggling weapons that have little or no chance of being effective? it is a million dollar question, giving opportunity to smuggle better weapons, you do not think they would?

Have you noticed that these rockets never hit the wall. They fly over the wall and into the desert. If they happen to hit somebody walking their dog in the desert, it is not really that big a deal. At least the Palestinians would hit the wall just to aggrivate the other side. Nope, over the wall and into the desert. They fired 200 rockets in the last two days and if it weren't for gravity, they would not have hit anything.

You are telling me that the Israelis are smart enough to stop the smuggling but not smart enough to stop the firing. I won't buy that for a second. It is an understatement to say that the Palestinians do not benefit from these rockets, only the Israelis benefit. Military aid, victim sympathy, expanding the settlements. etc... The Palestinians get their homes destroyed and their families killed. At least you would think that the Palestinians would at least try to damage the wall. I mean it would do some damage and maybe 200 rockets might just cause some grief on the other side.

At least if they were fired from the west bank they would be able to hit populated areas, nope, over the wall in gaza and into the desert. Of course I know the difference between Hamas and the PA. Still Palestinians with the same axe to grind.

[Pralaad]

We all seem to be repeating old songs so why not.

The struggle is like a chess match between Bobby Fischer and Gomer Pyle. Israel has at least a 40 pt average IQ advantage which everyone on the forum alludes to in these threads without having to spell it out. True or not, the pro-Israeli posters and the Israeli Jews believe it to be true. The Israelis have the most competent intelligence operations in the world. In Gaza, there are more agents and CIs per square meter than anywhere in the world. The area is under constant surveillance from the air via drone and satellites. I continue to maintain that the only reason these rockets get launched, without somebody stopping them in the act, is that the Israelis want these rockets to be launched.

They rarely hit anything. These rockets are not guided but they should be able to hit a town. The mortars can be fairly accurate but they also never seem to hit anything. An entire case of mortar rounds can be fired in a couple of minutes but these mortar rounds are never counted and we don't know what size and make the mortars are but we collectively believe these mortar rounds are smuggled in from places like Iran. Again they never seem to hit anything. Again the question is, why are the Iranians not smuggling in a guided capability that can do more damage? What would be the point of smuggling weapons and munitions that have little or no chance of being effective?

I have worked with the Israelis, they would never let these rockets get off the ground unless they wanted these rockets launched. We are talking about tens of thousands of worthless rockets of which over 95% land in the desert.

If rockets never hit anything, what is the point of keep on firing them?

Why Iranians are not smuggling better rockets? because they can not, but have tried and keep on trying.

Why does not Hamas make better rockets? they would if they could, but due to blockades and tough security they can not

What is the point of smuggling weapons that have little or no chance of being effective? it is a million dollar question, giving opportunity to smuggle better weapons, you do not think they would?

Have you noticed that these rockets never hit the wall. They fly over the wall and into the desert. If they happen to hit somebody walking their dog in the desert, it is not really that big a deal. At least the Palestinians would hit the wall just to aggrivate the other side. Nope, over the wall and into the desert. They fired 200 rockets in the last two days and if it weren't for gravity, they would not have hit anything.

You are telling me that the Israelis are smart enough to stop the smuggling but not smart enough to stop the firing. I won't buy that for a second. It is an understatement to say that the Palestinians do not benefit from these rockets, only the Israelis benefit. Military aid, victim sympathy, expanding the settlements. etc... The Palestinians get their homes destroyed and their families killed. At least you would think that the Palestinians would at least try to damage the wall. I mean it would do some damage and maybe 200 rockets might just cause some grief on the other side.

At least if they were fired from the west bank they would be able to hit populated areas, nope, over the wall in gaza and into the desert. Of course I know the difference between Hamas and the PA. Still Palestinians with the same axe to grind.

In case you have not noticed tunnels take days or months to build , firing a rocket takes seconds.

If you know a way to detect a rocket launcher in minutes if not seconds and how to destroy it just as fast, I am sure Israel and the rest of the world would buy your technology

[Ulysses G.]

Truth is Jerusalem has little meaning to Arabs from religious point of you, they prey facing Mecca, not only that Jerusalem is not directly mentioned by name in the Qur'an nor is it mentioned by its Arabic translation.

so its more of a point maker for Pals instead of its being a real meaning.

I concur. I think they only want Jerusalem because it is so important to the Jews. However, just like their "ancient" Palestinian identity, they have been lying about it for so long now - since 1948 - that they might even have convinced themselves.