Israel, Hamas on collision course as clashes escalate

Morch · July 10, 2014

I posted the quotes above from the JP.. Clearly the Israelis know from where the rockets are launched and where the homes of who they blame are. they also know the names of individuals that they want to target. They also know about the smuggler tunnels. They keep a big board with predetermined targets for these types of situations. They know what is going to happen and they handle it by going in after the rockets and bomb all the launch sites. Of course they could go in before the rockets are launched but they don't want to sound like the aggressor. The result is the same. They know the rockets are not a real threat.

Not a real threat?!? You have clearly never been under the arc of a rocket or mortar, hearing the low thump of the launch and then counting to ten while your sphincter increasingly tightens, only to get down on your knees and thank Baby Jesus when you hear the sound of an explosion further away from your person, no longer concerned that it might have landed upon someone else. These weapons may not be sophisticated nor accurate, but rest assured that if by some chance they fall close to your person that they can cause significant harm and destruction. You also imply that Israeli intelligence is omniscient. It is good, but not that good.

I have not been in that particular situation but I am retired military and have had my time in the bunker. The point is, you have to play the hand you are dealt. We all have to face things we don't like or are afraid of. Last weekend for example, 80 some people were shot in Chicago. It is hard to say that they live in less danger than those living in rural Israel. Those Israelis that live under that threat can pack up and move. They have to gauge that for them selves. Absolute safety does not exist and it is not an achievable goal for any reasonable world leader.

How can a country be terrorized on a weekly basis and only lose one citizen in 2 years and 13 in 12 years. If you add the numbers from Cast Lead, the total jumps up to 50 something. These are either the most incompetent terrorists in the world or the game is rigged. It is hard to imagine that anybody can be that incompetent. Clearly Bibi has calculated the downside and can live with losing a few for the greater good. He has much bigger problems to deal with than the occasional rocket casualty.

The apparent need to lean rather heavily on the victim card here when Bibi has everything under complete control is something I am very interested in. Is that a part of the culture? It seems to be a very common issue in this particular subject.

So, in your opinion, the options are limited to either put up with it or move. Well, that's one way of looking at it, I don't think most people on either side subscribe to it much.

Why would the citizens of a country being attacked be expected to move? Wouldn't they, rightfully, expect their government to do its best to protect them?

A fair share of Israelis do feel that the government and the IDF are being too "soft". And suppose they would move, where to? Israel is a pretty small piece of land when it comes to rockets.

There was an informal ceasefire reached after the last round of hostilities which was adhered to up until about a couple of months ago. This would explain the recent "lull" in rocket attacks. The Egyptians getting serious on curbing arms smuggling is another factor. As for casualty figures, have a look in the link bellow http://en.wikipedia.org /wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#Casualties.2C_Fatalities_and_rockets_fired Death toll is somewhat more serious that your presented, and that is without consideration of injuries and damage done. Once again, these rockets are not designed to be cause mass casualties. Their main aim is to induce terror and they do this quite successfully. The notion that their effectiveness is to be translated as a body count is simply off track.

Public opinion is actually quite critical of Netanyahu over the way IDF reacts now and the way the last round ended. Many of his own supporters feel let down. While he does make calculations (the same way that most leaders and politicians do) - I feel that these, at least sometimes, have more to do with his own political future than anything else. One thing that is certain - he does not have everything under complete control. This is a proposition most Israelis will find hilarious. The Israeli PM cannot even control his own party and government ministers.

Saying that the rockets are a threat, that they disturb life in Israel and that they do cause damage and are in effect terrorizing - this is reality, not playing any victim card. Of course, Israeli representatives will clumsily try to garner global opinion support, and the may succeed to a degree, until an Israeli missile misses and mediawill go the other way. If anything, world media is generally more supportive of the Palestinians, what with them being the underdog in this fight.

So, calculations and playing the victim. Fine. How does that work on the other side of the fence? Pretty well, it seems. Launch a bunch of rockets, wait for retaliation, place likely targets in residential areas, hope for a miss, exploit casualties as proof of the other side's nefariousness. When things get rough, rush for a cease fire deal, while demanding concessions to compensate for the destruction caused. Rinse, repeat.

Pralaad · July 10, 2014

Special for Pakboong and simple1,
Hamas: We attempted to hit the nuclear reactor in Dimona http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rocket-alert-sirens-sound-in-Zichron-Yaakov-120-km-north-of-Gaza-362087

“Israel under renewed Hamas attack”. Some 100 underground rocket launchers and 10 attack tunnels were among the targets.

Three homes in Gaza used by Hamas as command and control centers for enabling rocket fire were also among the targets. JP

The homes belonged to Hamas members Muhammad Sba’at, a senior member its rocket-launching formations in Beit Hanun on the northeast edge of the Strip, who was involved in several recent attacks; Amin Ibrahim al-Alba’an, a Hamas member; and Abu Jarad, a Hamas member from northern Gaza who has been engaged in terrorism against Israel. JP

Yes, somebody claims that Syrian made 302 long range rockets were fired at Dimona and Tel Aviv. The chance of actually hitting either is next to zero but even if they could it would not be a bad play.

I posted the quotes above from the JP.. Clearly the Israelis know from where the rockets are launched and where the homes of who they blame are. they also know the names of individuals that they want to target. They also know about the smuggler tunnels. They keep a big board with predetermined targets for these types of situations. They know what is going to happen and they handle it by going in after the rockets and bomb all the launch sites. Of course they could go in before the rockets are launched but they don't want to sound like the aggressor. The result is the same. They know the rockets are not a real threat.

The first day of the reprisal, 6 Hamas members were killed in one of the many tunnels. It always seems that the Israelis respond to rocket attack with known targets.

Funny to me is that I am arguing that the Israelis are light years more intelligent than the Palestinians and the pro Israeli posters are arguing that they aren't. What is wrong with that? Is being the victim here so important that the arguments get that far off track. We are talking 180 here.

Why are you ignoring the main fact that they are trying to hit Nuclear reactor?

Morch · July 10, 2014

Special for Pakboong and simple1,
Hamas: We attempted to hit the nuclear reactor in Dimona http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rocket-alert-sirens-sound-in-Zichron-Yaakov-120-km-north-of-Gaza-362087

“Israel under renewed Hamas attack”. Some 100 underground rocket launchers and 10 attack tunnels were among the targets.

Three homes in Gaza used by Hamas as command and control centers for enabling rocket fire were also among the targets. JP

The homes belonged to Hamas members Muhammad Sba’at, a senior member its rocket-launching formations in Beit Hanun on the northeast edge of the Strip, who was involved in several recent attacks; Amin Ibrahim al-Alba’an, a Hamas member; and Abu Jarad, a Hamas member from northern Gaza who has been engaged in terrorism against Israel. JP

Yes, somebody claims that Syrian made 302 long range rockets were fired at Dimona and Tel Aviv. The chance of actually hitting either is next to zero but even if they could it would not be a bad play.

I posted the quotes above from the JP.. Clearly the Israelis know from where the rockets are launched and where the homes of who they blame are. they also know the names of individuals that they want to target. They also know about the smuggler tunnels. They keep a big board with predetermined targets for these types of situations. They know what is going to happen and they handle it by going in after the rockets and bomb all the launch sites. Of course they could go in before the rockets are launched but they don't want to sound like the aggressor. The result is the same. They know the rockets are not a real threat.

The first day of the reprisal, 6 Hamas members were killed in one of the many tunnels. It always seems that the Israelis respond to rocket attack with known targets.

Funny to me is that I am arguing that the Israelis are light years more intelligent than the Palestinians and the pro Israeli posters are arguing that they aren't. What is wrong with that? Is being the victim here so important that the arguments get that far off track. We are talking 180 here.

Could you possibly learn to properly quote? Not that hard and makes it so much easier to check the source.

There were rockets launched at Tel Aviv which were intercepted by an Iron Dome battery. Earlier there were rockets

that hit north of Tel Aviv. There was some debate as to which rocket was used, with the one you mentioned being a

possibility. Can't really see how that makes a huge difference.

The IDF knows where launchers are after they are activated. Otherwise they would be attacked beforehand.

They do not know where all launchers are, even if you continue to claim so.

The IDF knows of some tunnels, not all. When it does, they are destroyed.

The IDF does know a lot of the personnel involved and their locations. As this round of hostilities took time to

gather momentum, most of the higher up leadership of Hamas & Co. dug in. Those attacked now are more of

the "operational" level, which have to stay relatively exposed. Any attack on a residential building is preceded

by a warning, well over and beyond what is called for by international law.

Attacking rocket storage sites was acknowledged as a problematic issues as many are now situated near or

under hospitals, schools and local media/NGO headquarters.

Keeping on portraying the IDF as an super-human army with unlimited capabilities may fit in your "argument".

It does not confirm with reality. This is not about playing victim, this is about sticking to facts.

The JP at the end of parts refers to Jerusalem Post. I took those from my notes that I take as I read everyday. I do not normally take the quotes from the various sources to repost on a forum. I did that today because i was in a hurry. You do have the option to ignore my posts and I won't be offended if you do. I do however enjoy discourse and from me on this subjuct, you are going to get discourse.

I would guess that you would consider the JP a reliable source. I do not feel like playing the source game. I did not use Press TV even though I often consider their reporting more accurate.

jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rocket-alert-sirens-sound-in-Zichron-Yaakov-120-km-north-of-Gaza-362087

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Syrian-made-M302-rocket-fired-by-Hamas-at-Hadera-362008

Above are the two articles from which the comments were cut and pasted. I hope they are Kosher enough for you. Can I be of further assistance?

My issue was not with the source but with the lack of proper quote. Wouldn't be annoyed it if was a first, or even a second. News and posts are muddled enough as it is, without trying to figure out what part of the a post is quoted from where.

Thank you for the links.

Pakboong · July 10, 2014

I posted the quotes above from the JP.. Clearly the Israelis know from where the rockets are launched and where the homes of who they blame are. they also know the names of individuals that they want to target. They also know about the smuggler tunnels. They keep a big board with predetermined targets for these types of situations. They know what is going to happen and they handle it by going in after the rockets and bomb all the launch sites. Of course they could go in before the rockets are launched but they don't want to sound like the aggressor. The result is the same. They know the rockets are not a real threat.

Not a real threat?!? You have clearly never been under the arc of a rocket or mortar, hearing the low thump of the launch and then counting to ten while your sphincter increasingly tightens, only to get down on your knees and thank Baby Jesus when you hear the sound of an explosion further away from your person, no longer concerned that it might have landed upon someone else. These weapons may not be sophisticated nor accurate, but rest assured that if by some chance they fall close to your person that they can cause significant harm and destruction. You also imply that Israeli intelligence is omniscient. It is good, but not that good.

I have not been in that particular situation but I am retired military and have had my time in the bunker. The point is, you have to play the hand you are dealt. We all have to face things we don't like or are afraid of. Last weekend for example, 80 some people were shot in Chicago. It is hard to say that they live in less danger than those living in rural Israel. Those Israelis that live under that threat can pack up and move. They have to gauge that for them selves. Absolute safety does not exist and it is not an achievable goal for any reasonable world leader.

How can a country be terrorized on a weekly basis and only lose one citizen in 2 years and 13 in 12 years. If you add the numbers from Cast Lead, the total jumps up to 50 something. These are either the most incompetent terrorists in the world or the game is rigged. It is hard to imagine that anybody can be that incompetent. Clearly Bibi has calculated the downside and can live with losing a few for the greater good. He has much bigger problems to deal with than the occasional rocket casualty.

The apparent need to lean rather heavily on the victim card here when Bibi has everything under complete control is something I am very interested in. Is that a part of the culture? It seems to be a very common issue in this particular subject.

So, in your opinion, the options are limited to either put up with it or move.

Well, that's one way of looking at it, I don't think most people on either side subscribe to it much.

Why would the citizens of a country being attacked be expected to move?

Wouldn't they, rightfully, expect their government to do its best to protect them?

A fair share of Israelis do feel that the government and the IDF are being too "soft".

And suppose they would move, where to? Israel is a pretty small piece of land when it comes to rockets.

There was an informal ceasefire reached after the last round of hostilities which was adhered to up until

about a couple of months ago. This would explain the recent "lull" in rocket attacks. The Egyptians getting

serious on curbing arms smuggling is another factor. As for casualty figures, have a look in the link bellow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#Casualties.2C_Fatalities_and_rockets_fired

Death toll is somewhat more serious that your presented, and that is without consideration of injuries and

damage done. Once again, these rockets are not designed to be cause mass casualties. Their main aim is

to induce terror and they do this quite successfully. The notion that their effectiveness is to be translated as

a body count is simply off track.

Public opinion is actually quite critical of Netanyahu over the way IDF reacts now and the way the last round

ended. Many of his own supporters feel let down. While he does make calculations (the same way that most

leaders and politicians do) - I feel that these, at least sometimes, have more to do with his own political future

than anything else. One thing that is certain - he does not have everything under complete control. This is a

proposition most Israelis will find hilarious. The Israeli PM cannot even control his own party and government

ministers.

Saying that the rockets are a threat, that they disturb life in Israel and that they do cause damage and are in

effect terrorizing - this is reality, not playing any victim card. Of course, Israeli representatives will clumsily try

to garner global opinion support, and the may succeed to a degree, until an Israeli missile misses and media

will go the other way. If anything, world media is generally more supportive of the Palestinians, what with them

being the underdog in this fight.

So, calculations and playing the victim. Fine. How does that work on the other side of the fence? Pretty well,

it seems. Launch a bunch of rockets, wait for retaliation, place likely targets in residential areas, hope for a

miss, exploit casualties as proof of the other side's nefariousness. When things get rough, rush for a cease

fire deal, while demanding concessions to compensate for the destruction caused. Rinse, repeat.

I approve of what has been done by Israeli leadership thus far. I am not making a statement of moral equivalence rather what I would do if faced with his hand. You could, put a body count on this matter and he is clearly winning. The gains that could come from his efforts are many. His losses are being held to an absolute minimum.

If I lived anywhere in the world and my safety became compromised and I felt as if no solution was at hand, I would likely move but that is just me. I am sure Bibi considers this stuff on a daily basis and he is playing the game as well as it can be played IMO. He has a decent share of the world's sympathy and that matters a bunch. When he defies UN sanctions, which he does a bunch, the fighting terrorism is his defense of his actions which holds a lot of weight on the world stage. People genuinely believe the Palestinians are a serious threat. Based upon what they have done over the last couple of decades, they are an inconvenience to a convenient explanation for Israeli action. Again, he has the Palestinians shooting what essentially are blanks and in the last couple of days, he has killed some 60 and injured many. Not a good deal for the Palestinians no matter how you look at it.

I do not fully understand the settlements. I know that Bibi would probably like them to go away but he is stuck with them. I have read alot about the history of the folks who make up the settlements and how they often do not like each other and are generally trouble for the Israeli leadership. Many have serious roots from WW2 Europe and do not assimilate as Bibi and other Israeli leaders would like. But I do not fully understand the issues. He has, like most leaders, many balls to juggle and the Palestinian issue is really small. He does have to give the people a feeling of safety but total safety is not achievable. So reasonable safety should be the goal. More people die from choking on their Sam Tom than die from Palestinian rockets. That is a fact and a fact that the Israeli leadership has to consider.

I find it humorous that you challenge my sources and in return, you throw Wikipedia at me. Not much of and effort if you really want to be taken seriously.

JP points out, if they are to be believed, that the IDF has these targets predetermined. Do I have a reason to not believe their facts regarding tunnels, underground rocket launchers, homes of their leadership, etc.? You acted in your post that you didn't believe this information. I guess what I am asking is whether or not, after reading a kosher source, do you still believe as you did regarding the tunnels, targets, launchers. etc.. Was it only because I said it that you didn't believe it?

These are the most incompetent terrorists in world history. The only thing left for them is extermination. They simply cannot be minimized much further.

Morch · July 10, 2014

Cant believe the arrogance if some here. A house was bliwn up near us yesterday. We got to the shelter in time but we are in a minute nd half area. The arab villages near us likewise spent the past few nights in their house bomb shelters (they have newer houses then us.we have to run or duck)...

A iron cap just got moved near us. Horay. We have five kibbutz families including visitors from overseas that werent able to have our kibbutz group bar mitzva tonite since we can't have large group of people in open area. Tons of scared tourist groups cancelled hotel orders. My son just got called up to emergency army reserve duty in middle of dinner. Wait! Several booms just now -iron cap sounds. But no red alert. Actual hits r not reported in news only general falls..at least until time has passed. And several army hits in gaza were stopped at last minute because children were in the house being targeted...this is from reports from boys from my kibbutz etc that are in regular service. Not news reports.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You are right we are not there. But you are there. Why are you there ? You were born there ? Were you persecuted when you left your home country ? Were you life in danger ?

The land where you kibbutz is built, how did you get it ? You bought it from the people who were living there before ?

You feel bad you couldn't have a party last night. And what about the people who were displaced to make room for the European settlers, did they have a party last night ?

I guess you get my point.

Israelis live there because this is their country. Deal with it. It's not going to change - not because of rants on the net and not because of rockets and terrorist attacks.

Most Israelis were born in Israel, yes. Many who immigrated to Israel (in earlier days) were indeed persecuted in their own country. In many cases their lives were in danger. Immigrants came not just from Europe, but also from Muslim countries (as a side note - to the best of my knowledge there was never an offer by Muslim countries to compensate Jews or hand back property taken from them, not to mention allowing them to return).

If your point was that you believe in making bogus assertions and that turning back the clock is a viable option, then yes - you have made it.

You assume a lot my dear friend. I don't make any assumption, bogus or not, it's you who make them when you reply a post without knowing the background of the question.

Anyway for your information here are some details about the demographic of Israel, I let you think about it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

Can we consider that the million of jews who came from Morocco/Algeria/Tunisia were persecuted in their country of origin ? And what of those from Russia ? Half of them are not even Jewish but criminals that the Russians were more than happy to let go, a bit like Castro who emptied his jails in Florida.

Anyway, the goal of most reasonable people is not to turn back the clock but to stop the expansion of the illegal settlements. That would be good enough for a start.

And your point is?

Most Israelis living in Israel were born in Israel. Many of those that came from Muslim countries were persecuted, harassed etc. No idea what the Russian immigration to Israel got to do with the topic at hand, but half of them being criminals is probably yet another thing you cannot support.

The expansion of the settlements is obviously wrong, as the settlements themselves are. The current attacks do not target these settlements, and were not triggered by a specific expansion move by the Israeli government. In fact, the attacks come from the one piece of Palestinian real estate without any Israeli presence. The Hamas vision is more about Israel not being there at all.

bina · July 10, 2014

Glad I put some personal thoughts in as people forget we are talking about people. ..the long range missiles r being sent as a 'we have the power' message. ..the other missiles r for the psychological effects and to kill.which is why we r getting less than tel aviv or the south. We r too close to too many muslem arab towns and one large city....they dont want to them by accident. ..Although killing beduins is ok...so in the south its no problem. .

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Pakboong · July 10, 2014

Glad I put some personal thoughts in as people forget we are talking about people. ..the long range missiles r being sent as a 'we have the power' message. ..the other missiles r for the psychological effects and to kill.which is why we r getting less than tel aviv or the south. We r too close to too many muslem arab towns and one large city....they dont want to them by accident. ..Although killing beduins is ok...so in the south its no problem. .

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

"Killing Beduins is ok". That pretty much says it all.

JohnnyJazz · July 10, 2014

How can you compare an invited guest and someone who use force to move in someone else house and kick the legitimate owner out.

I am here because I've been invited by the lawful inhabitants of this country. The place where I live has been freely let to me by the legitimate owner. Can you understand the difference ?

So does this principle apply everywhere around the globe? USA? Latin and South America? South Africa? India? Australia? The list goes on. There's usually no turning back of time and not much realistic possibility of restoring the past. Clinging on to this notion is one of the reasons this conflict goes nowhere.

While focusing on this point - would the above apply to Jews formerly living in Muslim countries? So far there was some reluctance to discuss (or even to acknowledge) this issue. Not that keen on "Right of Return" when it goes the other way, it would seem.

There's usually no turning back of time and not much realistic possibility of restoring the past.

In short just forget it and move on.

Would you say that to survivors of the holocaust who are still hunting Nazis ? Would you tell that to the people who are still fighting to get back what was stolen from them during WWII ? Would you have told that to Mandela when he was still in jail ?

Ulysses G. · July 10, 2014

Go ahead and try makes false changes in that Wikipedia page. I dare you.

The myth that anyone can change whatever is just that.

Well, that is not what Wikipedia itself has to say and I have found major errors in historical information that they provided. They are a terrible source for trying to make a serious argument.

*Wikipedia is not considered a credible source

**This is especially true considering anyone can edit the information given at any time, and although most errors are immediately fixed, some errors maintain unnoticed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use

simple1 · July 10, 2014

Glad I put some personal thoughts in as people forget we are talking about people. ..the long range missiles r being sent as a 'we have the power' message. ..the other missiles r for the psychological effects and to kill.which is why we r getting less than tel aviv or the south. We r too close to too many muslem arab towns and one large city....they dont want to them by accident. ..Although killing beduins is ok...so in the south its no problem. .

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

"Killing Beduins is ok". That pretty much says it all.

In fairness, I believe she was saying Hamas aren't too concerned if Bedouins are killed by their actions

Edited July 10, 2014 by simple1

Morch · July 10, 2014

Not a real threat?!? You have clearly never been under the arc of a rocket or mortar, hearing the low thump of the launch and then counting to ten while your sphincter increasingly tightens, only to get down on your knees and thank Baby Jesus when you hear the sound of an explosion further away from your person, no longer concerned that it might have landed upon someone else. These weapons may not be sophisticated nor accurate, but rest assured that if by some chance they fall close to your person that they can cause significant harm and destruction. You also imply that Israeli intelligence is omniscient. It is good, but not that good.

I have not been in that particular situation but I am retired military and have had my time in the bunker. The point is, you have to play the hand you are dealt. We all have to face things we don't like or are afraid of. Last weekend for example, 80 some people were shot in Chicago. It is hard to say that they live in less danger than those living in rural Israel. Those Israelis that live under that threat can pack up and move. They have to gauge that for them selves. Absolute safety does not exist and it is not an achievable goal for any reasonable world leader.

How can a country be terrorized on a weekly basis and only lose one citizen in 2 years and 13 in 12 years. If you add the numbers from Cast Lead, the total jumps up to 50 something. These are either the most incompetent terrorists in the world or the game is rigged. It is hard to imagine that anybody can be that incompetent. Clearly Bibi has calculated the downside and can live with losing a few for the greater good. He has much bigger problems to deal with than the occasional rocket casualty.

The apparent need to lean rather heavily on the victim card here when Bibi has everything under complete control is something I am very interested in. Is that a part of the culture? It seems to be a very common issue in this particular subject.

So, in your opinion, the options are limited to either put up with it or move.

Well, that's one way of looking at it, I don't think most people on either side subscribe to it much.

Why would the citizens of a country being attacked be expected to move?

Wouldn't they, rightfully, expect their government to do its best to protect them?

A fair share of Israelis do feel that the government and the IDF are being too "soft".

And suppose they would move, where to? Israel is a pretty small piece of land when it comes to rockets.

There was an informal ceasefire reached after the last round of hostilities which was adhered to up until

about a couple of months ago. This would explain the recent "lull" in rocket attacks. The Egyptians getting

serious on curbing arms smuggling is another factor. As for casualty figures, have a look in the link bellow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#Casualties.2C_Fatalities_and_rockets_fired

Death toll is somewhat more serious that your presented, and that is without consideration of injuries and

damage done. Once again, these rockets are not designed to be cause mass casualties. Their main aim is

to induce terror and they do this quite successfully. The notion that their effectiveness is to be translated as

a body count is simply off track.

Public opinion is actually quite critical of Netanyahu over the way IDF reacts now and the way the last round

ended. Many of his own supporters feel let down. While he does make calculations (the same way that most

leaders and politicians do) - I feel that these, at least sometimes, have more to do with his own political future

than anything else. One thing that is certain - he does not have everything under complete control. This is a

proposition most Israelis will find hilarious. The Israeli PM cannot even control his own party and government

ministers.

Saying that the rockets are a threat, that they disturb life in Israel and that they do cause damage and are in

effect terrorizing - this is reality, not playing any victim card. Of course, Israeli representatives will clumsily try

to garner global opinion support, and the may succeed to a degree, until an Israeli missile misses and media

will go the other way. If anything, world media is generally more supportive of the Palestinians, what with them

being the underdog in this fight.

So, calculations and playing the victim. Fine. How does that work on the other side of the fence? Pretty well,

it seems. Launch a bunch of rockets, wait for retaliation, place likely targets in residential areas, hope for a

miss, exploit casualties as proof of the other side's nefariousness. When things get rough, rush for a cease

fire deal, while demanding concessions to compensate for the destruction caused. Rinse, repeat.

I approve of what has been done by Israeli leadership thus far. I am not making a statement of moral equivalence rather what I would do if faced with his hand. You could, put a body count on this matter and he is clearly winning. The gains that could come from his efforts are many. His losses are being held to an absolute minimum.

If I lived anywhere in the world and my safety became compromised and I felt as if no solution was at hand, I would likely move but that is just me. I am sure Bibi considers this stuff on a daily basis and he is playing the game as well as it can be played IMO. He has a decent share of the world's sympathy and that matters a bunch. When he defies UN sanctions, which he does a bunch, the fighting terrorism is his defense of his actions which holds a lot of weight on the world stage. People genuinely believe the Palestinians are a serious threat. Based upon what they have done over the last couple of decades, they are an inconvenience to a convenient explanation for Israeli action. Again, he has the Palestinians shooting what essentially are blanks and in the last couple of days, he has killed some 60 and injured many. Not a good deal for the Palestinians no matter how you look at it.

I do not fully understand the settlements. I know that Bibi would probably like them to go away but he is stuck with them. I have read alot about the history of the folks who make up the settlements and how they often do not like each other and are generally trouble for the Israeli leadership. Many have serious roots from WW2 Europe and do not assimilate as Bibi and other Israeli leaders would like. But I do not fully understand the issues. He has, like most leaders, many balls to juggle and the Palestinian issue is really small. He does have to give the people a feeling of safety but total safety is not achievable. So reasonable safety should be the goal. More people die from choking on their Sam Tom than die from Palestinian rockets. That is a fact and a fact that the Israeli leadership has to consider.

I find it humorous that you challenge my sources and in return, you throw Wikipedia at me. Not much of and effort if you really want to be taken seriously.

JP points out, if they are to be believed, that the IDF has these targets predetermined. Do I have a reason to not believe their facts regarding tunnels, underground rocket launchers, homes of their leadership, etc.? You acted in your post that you didn't believe this information. I guess what I am asking is whether or not, after reading a kosher source, do you still believe as you did regarding the tunnels, targets, launchers. etc.. Was it only because I said it that you didn't believe it?

These are the most incompetent terrorists in world history. The only thing left for them is extermination. They simply cannot be minimized much further.

Well, I'm not sure people posting on expat forums are quite the segment of population to comment on people with strong sentiments with regard to staying on their own land. You, and maybe others, would move away - obviously not everyone feels the same about these things. That does not necessarily make their choices less valid.

Israel gets its international support on condition nothing goes too wrong. The minute something does the tables are turned. This is another reason why the Israeli government is reluctant to execute large scale attacks or a ground move. It might be a correct, or even smart, calculation - but pretty sure it doesn't make the people down there feel any happier or safer. As for Netanyahu, I think he's damaged goods as far as most of the world opinion is concerned, sort of a one trick pony with a fixation on Iran and terrorism. Even in Israel there are a lot of voices saying he is not doing a good enough job running the country, over concentrating on his pet topics. Seeing things differently is ok, but when counting UN resolutions, there is an inordinate amount dealing with Israel, and most of them are not very supportive.

The Palestinians are not an immediate threat to Israel's existence. I don't think anyone seriously tried to claim this for quite some time now. They do pose a political threat, and they do engage in acts of terrorism - may not be an existential issue as far as the country goes, very different on a personal level. The major reason that the Palestinian threat is contained, is that Israel does not sit idle. Same goes for the rockets - take away the measures in place to counter them, and the damage done will go up.

You keep looking at it from a supposed Israeli point of view, which in my opinion does not truly reflect the decision making process exhibited by Israel's leadership, especially under Netanyahu. At the same time there a blind spot when it comes to how this aggression is being used by the Hamas leadership as means to garner support, secure their hold on the Gaza Strip and undermine peace efforts. Not good for the Palestinians as a whole, not good for the people of Gaza, rather good for the Hamas leadership.

The settlements - Netanyahu's pragmatism on this goes as far as his own political career is concerned. Being ideologically a hardliner, I do not think he opposes the settlements as such, albeit they do present many problems, especially on the international level. The general characterization of settlers presented does not conform to my experience, especially not the assimilation and WW2 Europe roots. Might be true for some groups, really can't say it represents the whole.

What you say about total security being unattainable is true enough. Netanyahu's problem on that front is that over the years he marketed himself as Mr. Security, and kept harping on other Israeli governments security failings when he was not in power. His inability to deliver as per his image and fulfill some of these unrealistic expectations, certainly cost him some support.

I did not challenge your sources so much as said you did not provide any (or in another post, that you gave a messed up quote). For people not happy with Wikipedia there's a couple of standard answers - No, it is not really that easy to change stuff on these pages, and while one may not agree with the content/analysis of articles, the original sources are generally verified and easy enough to access.

JP says one thing, other sources say differently. There a good article on Ynet detailing current intelligence issues which hamper operations. Hopefully they will translate it on their English website so it can be linked here. There's a wealth of information in Arabic and Hebrew on the current situation. If there is a specific point I post on which interests you - feel free to PM and I'll do my best to hunt a relevant source in English.

I don't think I said anything about the IDF not having a "target bank". The IDF obviously got a predetermined target list as any army would. Having a list is not quite the same as having all the relevant targets on that list (I do maintain that Israel's intelligence is good, but not omniscient). Having a target on the list does not always mean it can be attacked when the time comes - chalk that up to Israeli politicians hesitating, unbelievably silly legal procedures prior to attacks, and operational issues (those would include the Hamas not being quite the buffoons after all). There's also quite a bit of the human shield tactic in evidence. IDF was not very happy with the way this started, claiming it lost the element of surprise due to government being hesitant. This allowed most of the leadership to get bellow ground and some storage areas to be either moved or get extra human protection. Most of this is readily available on various media sources.

You may keep calling them incompetent, not quite sure why. They are still around, they are still a force to be reckoned with. That the rockets do not result in many casualties is not a good standard, that Israel still exists is not a good standard. How does one determine the competence of a terrorist organization?

Morch · July 10, 2014

How can you compare an invited guest and someone who use force to move in someone else house and kick the legitimate owner out.

I am here because I've been invited by the lawful inhabitants of this country. The place where I live has been freely let to me by the legitimate owner. Can you understand the difference ?

So does this principle apply everywhere around the globe? USA? Latin and South America? South Africa? India? Australia? The list goes on. There's usually no turning back of time and not much realistic possibility of restoring the past. Clinging on to this notion is one of the reasons this conflict goes nowhere.

While focusing on this point - would the above apply to Jews formerly living in Muslim countries? So far there was some reluctance to discuss (or even to acknowledge) this issue. Not that keen on "Right of Return" when it goes the other way, it would seem.

There's usually no turning back of time and not much realistic possibility of restoring the past.

In short just forget it and move on.

Would you say that to survivors of the holocaust who are still hunting Nazis ? Would you tell that to the people who are still fighting to get back what was stolen from them during WWII ? Would you have told that to Mandela when he was still in jail ?

The Holocaust survivors and Nazi still among us issue was actually on forum not long ago. Not sure if it is quite the same thing, but in general - almost of the people directly involved are not going to be around in a decade. As I detailed in that topic, when questioned two survivors about this I got two radically different views. This has very little to do with return of property or other worldly goods, btw, more a moral issue.

Not quite sure what to think of Mandela, to be honest. Had many sides to him.

On topic - not forget and move on. Accept reality for what it is and make the best of it. Cut your losses and make a future instead of wallowing in the past. Some things can be set straight, some can not. Fight the fights you can win.

Morch · July 10, 2014

Go ahead and try makes false changes in that Wikipedia page. I dare you.

The myth that anyone can change whatever is just that.

Well, that is not what Wikipedia itself has to say and I have found major errors in historical information that they provided. They are a terrible source for trying to make a serious argument.

*Wikipedia is not considered a credible source

**This is especially true considering anyone can edit the information given at any time, and although most errors are immediately fixed, some errors maintain unnoticed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use

I did not say that Wikipedia articles are a great source by themselves. I say, as they do, that articles (and especially ones pertaining to controversial or important issues) are heavily monitored and that making changes in them is not likely to go unnoticed or unchallenged. In many cases there are clear warning on page when objectivity issues arise, and in some case editing options are limited and even blocked. Wikipedia values relating to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict sure fall in these categories. I did my first trial run (when I had the same opinion as you do) on the biography of rather uninspiring German bureaucrat of the 18th century. Was found out and got told off after a couple of days.

Consider http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/738148-do-you-eat-your-nigiri-sushi-with-hands-or-chopsticks/?p=8029801

and multiply by an appropriate factor...

I usually check the actual sources on Wikipedia articles (when I'm not familiar with the topic) but then I also eat my nigiri sushi as a true barbarian.

Ulysses G. · July 10, 2014

Go ahead and try makes false changes in that Wikipedia page. I dare you.

The myth that anyone can change whatever is just that.

Well, that is not what Wikipedia itself has to say and I have found major errors in historical information that they provided. They are a terrible source for trying to make a serious argument.

*Wikipedia is not considered a credible source

**This is especially true considering anyone can edit the information given at any time, and although most errors are immediately fixed, some errors maintain unnoticed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use

I did not say that Wikipedia articles are a great source by themselves.

You said that I could not change content with incorrect information and - according to Wiki - that is wrong. As I have said before, I have seen historical information that was incorrect, but I am too lazy to learn how to change it.

I do think Wiki is good to get an overview of different topics, but, as they admit themselves, Wikipedia is not a credible source, so people should not be linking to it on Thai Visa to "prove" points, because the information is often suspect.

Morch · July 10, 2014

Go ahead and try makes false changes in that Wikipedia page. I dare you.

The myth that anyone can change whatever is just that.

Well, that is not what Wikipedia itself has to say and I have found major errors in historical information that they provided. They are a terrible source for trying to make a serious argument.

*Wikipedia is not considered a credible source

**This is especially true considering anyone can edit the information given at any time, and although most errors are immediately fixed, some errors maintain unnoticed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use

I did not say that Wikipedia articles are a great source by themselves.

You said that I could not change content with incorrect information and - according to Wiki - that is wrong. As I have said before, I have seen historical information that was incorrect, but I am too lazy to learn how to change it.

I do think Wiki is good to get an overview of different topics, but, as they admit themselves, Wikipedia is not a credible source, so people should not be linking to it on Thai Visa to "prove" points, because the information is often suspect.

You can make changes (again, not in all pages) - they will be noticed and corrected/challenged very quickly on "hot" topics. The chance of making a meaningful long lasting change in an a topic having to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is as good as the chances of solving the conflict by the end of the year...

Don't think we have an argument about Wikipedia articles being a great source - that is not to say that they are all rubbish, or that they have no value in providing a summary of things. I have no issues with linking to Wikipedia, on the assumption that most people are aware of what it is and what it is not.

Ulysses G. · July 10, 2014

All I said is that it is a lousy source to link to to "prove" anything and nothing you have said disputes that point.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Ulysses G.

Johpa · July 10, 2014

I do not fully understand the settlements. I know that Bibi would probably like them to go away but he is stuck with them. I have read alot about the history of the folks who make up the settlements and how they often do not like each other and are generally trouble for the Israeli leadership. Many have serious roots from WW2 Europe and do not assimilate as Bibi and other Israeli leaders would like. But I do not fully understand the issues. He has, like most leaders, many balls to juggle and the Palestinian issue is really small. He does have to give the people a feeling of safety but total safety is not achievable. So reasonable safety should be the goal. More people die from choking on their Sam Tom than die from Palestinian rockets. That is a fact and a fact that the Israeli leadership has to consider.

Netanyahu is Begin's heir within the Likud party. In the traditional parlimentary system used in Israel, the Likud linked with the orthodox Jewish religious parties to establish a majority, a political alignment that continues to this day. The original settlements were almost exclusively populated by religious orthodox Ashkenazi groups, with a large American presence (not European) which also continues to this day. It was the old Labor Party in Israel (think Rabin) that was led by those with roots from Europe where there was at least some mild opposition to the settlements.

The problem with Netanyahu is that he is no juggler and he imagines that he has really big balls and comes across as a bully. It was Netanyahu who fanned the flames of hatred by calling for, in effect, revenge for the murders of the three Israeli kids. It was Netanyahu who decided to flatten the home of the suspect as revenge. And it is Nethanyahu who will now not flatten the home of the Israeli suspects in the revenge killing of the Arab kid. Nobody likes a bully, not me, not the Arabs. Netanyahu is part of the problem and he needs to go.

bina · July 10, 2014

I meant the hamas dont care about the beduins and neithher doist of the israeli arabs...

All I wrote just erased ad wr had a red slert ...I meant to film but hit the wrong button...anyhow two falls and two hits iver our heads...and the arab villages near us in the same boat...and the dogs climbed on the dinner table and ate our dinner...went to make sure the thai workers go to their bunker but they dont bother. ..hubby got an earful from me...

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NeverSure · July 10, 2014

-snip-

The problem is you mix up history and mythology. All your claims are based on a book that also claim that the world was created 6,000 years ago.

I'm still waiting for the name of that book, and the reference to where that claim was made. WELL, genius?

I base my claims on facts.

bina · July 10, 2014

Its nit really a matter of deaths...the cipat barzel knows if a missiles will fall in a residential area or not and shoots the missile down or kets it fsll in open areas but definateky people suffer from ptsd children regress...students cant do final exams etc...of ciurse u who are sitting safe dont have to choose a side but when ur in the middle u dont have that priveledge. Obviously mist if us dont like bombing houses just like ours with kids jyst like ours nd that is part if the problem...hard to kill humans easier to kill faceless enemies which the hamas et al consider us...what do u think israeli arabs feel when in bomb shelter at the end if the day waiting for their wives to cook ramadan food and having to leave everything and wait just like us wondering where the damn thing will fall...missiles don't differentiate between israel jews or arabs...tonite or a.m. will be a big move rumour has it so we expect many red alerts tonite...as long as im not on the toilet ...this past one had some of us half dressed or in the shelter straight from the shower. Its not the same feeling as being a doldier in a bunker...kids get hystericsl...some people brought their dogs so a dog fight started. ..my dogs stayed in the house and ate our dinner...of course gazains gave it bad but noone there actually takes care of them unless its domeone important or they have money...so they get screwed.many generations of kids rsised in a viokent manner makes for violent people...

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bina · July 10, 2014

In past few minutes hamas is blasting out in all directions but mostly on ber sheva but managed to have on fall on a palestinian village and one very close to ramallah..rahat the beduin city next to ber sheva is also getting a lot of missiles...there doesnt seem to be a pattern other then its dinner time after a day of fasting for ramadan...

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bina · July 10, 2014

Mostly grads...the long range missiles are more costly and they have fewer of them so r more sparing...hamas is trying very hard right now to do as much damage as possible probably before tzahal goes in

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simple1 · July 10, 2014

Mostly grads...the long range missiles are more costly and they have fewer of them so r more sparing...hamas is trying very hard right now to do as much damage as possible probably before tzahal goes in

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Bina, thanks for contributions, for those unfamiliar with the word "Tzahal", Israeli Defense Forces, Ethical Code of Conduct, guidelines and so on below:

Ruach Tzahal (Literally, 'Spirit of the IDF') represents the values of the Israel Defense Forces and stands as the foundation for the responsibilities of Israel's army. This overarching ethical code, and the guidelines and operation resulting from it, shape the mode of action applied by all IDF soldiers and units, both in peace and at war.

During basic training, every IDF soldier studies and analyzes the code of ethics together with their commanders. It is customary for a framed copy of the code to be hung in every commanders office as a constant reminder of the IDF's values and guidelines.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/IDF_ethics.html

Pakboong · July 11, 2014

Mostly grads...the long range missiles are more costly and they have fewer of them so r more sparing...hamas is trying very hard right now to do as much damage as possible probably before tzahal goes in

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A point I made earlier and many times in the past is that the Palestinians are the most incompetent terrorist is world history. You claim that they are trying really hard now to do some serious damage but they have damaged absolutely nothing. The casualty totals are approximately 580 to 0. That piece of information does not need to be explained. Yeah, your dinner was disrupted but the Bedoins down the street continued with their lives without concern and none of them were affected.

I was looking through pictures this morning of Israelis parked on the sides of expressways with sirens going off. They were hunched down besides their cars and looking at the sky for rockets. Kind of reminds me of "Duck and Cover" from the 1950s. It was extremely apparent that nothing on that particular highway nor any of the hundreds of cars in the picture had ever been damaged by a rocket. I don't know and do not care what the Palestinians deserve, I again say, I would take a hard line if it was my job to fix it but, it is not my job. News reports have Hamas having fired over 300 rockets with no damage. That piece of information stands alone. No need to whine about it or explain it. If that is to much danger for you, live somewhere else. I am however, really sorry that your dogs ate your dinner.

The 580 to 0 stands alone. It needs no interpretation. I don't have a problem with what Israeli leadership is doing, my problem is in giving that away, we still pretty much have every pro-Isreal poster wanting to explain how much danger the Israelis are in. I have made a mental note of the casualty count for many years and it is pretty much always the same. Israelis will never be liked or even tolerated by Palestinians. A few years back, I made a parallel between firing Medieval catapults against fortified positions and actually doing more damage than 21st century rockets fired at residential areas. It is a silly comparrison. I think Israelis need to get past that. Have your shelters, your missile defense and your sirens and just live with it or move. You have a much greater chance of being hit by lightning.

I have no problem with the "Only good Indian is a dead Indian" logic. My problem is the whining about it. The Palestinans do not like you and they never will like you. Get used to it or move.

Johpa · July 11, 2014

During basic training, every IDF soldier studies and analyzes the code of ethics together with their commanders. It is customary for a framed copy of the code to be hung in every commanders office as a constant reminder of the IDF's values and guidelines.

If I may come out of the closet a wee bit, that must be something new to the IDF.

simple1 · July 11, 2014

During basic training, every IDF soldier studies and analyzes the code of ethics together with their commanders. It is customary for a framed copy of the code to be hung in every commanders office as a constant reminder of the IDF's values and guidelines.

If I may come out of the closet a wee bit, that must be something new to the IDF.

Sorry I think your comment is without merit.

As you know I do not support all Israeli actions concerning the Palestinians. Conversely, I do not support the view IDF forces act as a matter of policy / rules of engagement, without any ethics or concern for civilian / non combatants, as Hamas & other terror groups do so on a regular basis.

As with any armed forces in combat operations there will be instances where individuals / units are the exception to the rule.

Edited July 11, 2014 by simple1

Morch · July 11, 2014

Mostly grads...the long range missiles are more costly and they have fewer of them so r more sparing...hamas is trying very hard right now to do as much damage as possible probably before tzahal goes in

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A point I made earlier and many times in the past is that the Palestinians are the most incompetent terrorist is world history. You claim that they are trying really hard now to do some serious damage but they have damaged absolutely nothing. The casualty totals are approximately 580 to 0. That piece of information does not need to be explained. Yeah, your dinner was disrupted but the Bedoins down the street continued with their lives without concern and none of them were affected.

I was looking through pictures this morning of Israelis parked on the sides of expressways with sirens going off. They were hunched down besides their cars and looking at the sky for rockets. Kind of reminds me of "Duck and Cover" from the 1950s. It was extremely apparent that nothing on that particular highway nor any of the hundreds of cars in the picture had ever been damaged by a rocket. I don't know and do not care what the Palestinians deserve, I again say, I would take a hard line if it was my job to fix it but, it is not my job. News reports have Hamas having fired over 300 rockets with no damage. That piece of information stands alone. No need to whine about it or explain it. If that is to much danger for you, live somewhere else. I am however, really sorry that your dogs ate your dinner.

The 580 to 0 stands alone. It needs no interpretation. I don't have a problem with what Israeli leadership is doing, my problem is in giving that away, we still pretty much have every pro-Isreal poster wanting to explain how much danger the Israelis are in. I have made a mental note of the casualty count for many years and it is pretty much always the same. Israelis will never be liked or even tolerated by Palestinians. A few years back, I made a parallel between firing Medieval catapults against fortified positions and actually doing more damage than 21st century rockets fired at residential areas. It is a silly comparrison. I think Israelis need to get past that. Have your shelters, your missile defense and your sirens and just live with it or move. You have a much greater chance of being hit by lightning.

I have no problem with the "Only good Indian is a dead Indian" logic. My problem is the whining about it. The Palestinans do not like you and they never will like you. Get used to it or move.

keeping on saying that the Hamas is the "most incompetent terrorist group" - yet failing to answer what is the criteria for a competent terrorist group. Sounds more like a baseless slogan which is used to make a faux argument.

Keeping on saying that Hamas doesn't hit anything or does no damage - ignoring explanations regarding operational and tactical issues. Also ignoring factual proof that these claims are untrue (example: http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Rocket-hits-Ashdod-gas-station-362369 ). Posting bogus casualty figures - the number posted represents both casualties AND injured on the Palestinian side, and as was the case on previous confrontations - it could very well be inflated).

Keeping on harping about how this does not effect the Arab population in Israel - seems like bina's post are actually quite the opposite of these assumptions. Local news and personal experience are probably more accurate than imagination.

Keeping on deflecting everything as playing the victim card, while ignoring this is done by both sides. Even more ridiculous when it comes from Hamas.

Keeping on holding the premise that the only valid options are put up with it or move. This is not some natural phenomenon that cannot be controlled. And on the same level, as there are two sides to this - can at least be applied both ways.

Well done.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Scott

Morch · July 11, 2014

During basic training, every IDF soldier studies and analyzes the code of ethics together with their commanders. It is customary for a framed copy of the code to be hung in every commanders office as a constant reminder of the IDF's values and guidelines.

If I may come out of the closet a wee bit, that must be something new to the IDF.

Sorry I think your comment is without merit.

As you know I do not support all Israeli actions concerning the Palestinians. Conversely, I do not support the view IDF forces act as a matter of policy / rules of engagement, without any ethics or concern for civilian / non combatants, as Hamas & other terror groups do so on a regular basis.

As with any armed forces in combat operations there will be instances where individuals / units are the exception to the rule.

I think what Johpa meant was that while this might be the letter of the IDF rules, the bit quoted is a little over the top when it comes to how it is actually applied. As far as I'm aware, his comment is spot on.

That said, compared with the past - there is certainly a stronger emphasis on playing by the rules. How much of it is taking a moral high ground and how much of it is being aware of world opinion and media coverage is another issue. In general, can be said that while violations do occur, they are also being investigated when they come up.

The recent hostilities take this to a whole new level, with IDF giving warnings before attack in urban residential areas (by leaflet/phone/radio), and first firing a dud warning shot, then commencing an actual attack. Some criticism of this ,being seen as going overboard, especially with Hamas calling on civilians to ignore warnings.

bina · July 11, 2014

My son now in reserve as of two days ago made an interesting comment:he said...ima .nowadays people r treating us soldiers as children to be protected when we r suposed to do the protecting .

Nd yes he had friends killed in action..

The point he was making is that tzahal is 1trying to maintain its code of ethics towards enemy families...hence the sms' s to gazains to get away from target sites ns

2 keep army casualities to a minimum because each casualty or failure brings investigations and pressure from families to protect soldiers at all costs...

Of course gazains are suffering worse. ..almost every child there is suffering from post trauma and behavioral problems but they got a small area with a great beach and because of a few rich families who control large areas the place is a shit hole.

Also they are shooting at us and now we are getting shot at from the north also. Israel is a fact of life. The palestinian s got what they asked for. ..a autonomous govt which received israeli funding and training. ..and yet they are being used by self interested terrorist groups tor those groups own interests. Its a matter of education and culture. Gazains r poor and tired and would just as soon as get on with life. I won't even write here what the israeli arabs in our area think about gazains...its a matter of class and money as well. ..its always much more clear to those who rnt inside it all and here it is all so so complex.

As for our soldiers. ..maybe more viokent know then in the past but for most they find it traumatic to be aggressive against families that remind them of their own (these are 18 yr olds in for 3 years not hardened g I joes mercenaries who have to some how make a switch from Saturday shabbat dinner with their siblings to aiming guns at people the same age as their siblings).the switch is difficult as they must make benefit of doubt to not shoot until u r sure ad upposed to shoot anything that moves.

I personally know guys who work with me who have families in gaza and syria ...u think we don't ask how things are there? Most on the forum here im sure never had personal contact with families who could also be your enemies.iraq and afganistan families are far far away and solgierd are pictured as war machines doing their duties but it's o so clean cause noone is actually firing at u.its like a video game. Of course I won't go anywhere I have nowhere to go.

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Ulysses G. · July 11, 2014

A point I made earlier and many times in the past is that the Palestinians are the most incompetent terrorist is world history.

They weren't so "incompetent" before Israel stepped up security on airliners and other transportation, built a wall to keep out suicide bombers and built bomb shelters and Iron Dome to shoot down rockets. All of these methods of terror were much more successful in the past and the Palestinians killed as many civilians as they could, but Israel came up with strategies to minimize the damage that they caused. Israel always has to be one step ahead of the terrorists.

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