Trump, a case of Malignant Normalcy (besides the "normal" Malignant Narcissim)

[loginwith]

Hi all!

I (foreigner) found a few years old condo (foreign ownership) in Pattaya that I like. Unfortunately I am not familiar with the process at all. I couldn't even read any Thai official documents :-)

What would be the best way buy from owner (minimizing the risk of being scammed)? I guess hiring a "buying agent" would be the way to go? How would I find such a person/company?

Do you have any recommendations?

Thanks for reading this topic!

[Crossy]

Since this is Pattaya specific let's try in that forum for local knowledge.

[i claudius]

phone michael at big mango properties 0896852198 nice guy ,he can help .

[KittenKong]

I would suggest finding an English-speaking Thai person (entirely unrelated to the sale) who can translate for you at the Land Office. Apart from that, just dont pay anything in advance and only pay the vendor using a bank draft in his name at the time of the transfer at the Land Office.

[ThaiBob]

questions to be asked and answered:

1. He has clear title of the property (no company name)? get the front and back copy of chanote (deed)

2. Have you established who pays the the transfer costs at the Land Office? often this is 50/50 but negotiable.

3. There are no encumbrances with the Home Owners Association? check with manager or juristic person. If any, he must clear.

4. You must bring your money from outside the country (transferred electronically) so a Thai bank can issue you a FET form. This helps you repatriate your money should you leave Thailand.

5. Do not give him money yet. If he wants cash, be sure you have your witnesses to count the cash.

Many realtors will help you for a fee. I would pay 10,000-12,000 baht.

Edited July 9, 2014 by ThaiBob

[rak sa_ngop]

If you find an agent to help with your purchase it is normal for the seller to pay the agent's commission. But as this is going to cost 2% or more, you have to get the seller to agree to this. I found my own condo but asked an agent to help with the sale as I was also new to Thailand. However the seller was a Thai corporate lawyer so he had no issue with paying the agent as this is normal Thai practice. I also did not need my own lawyer as the agent was familiar with the purchase procedure (and it was in the agents interest to complete the transfer successfully to get his commission).

[ThaiBob]

If you find an agent to help with your purchase it is normal for the seller to pay the agent's commission. But as this is going to cost 2% or more, you have to get the seller to agree to this. I found my own condo but asked an agent to help with the sale as I was also new to Thailand. However the seller was a Thai corporate lawyer so he had no issue with paying the agent as this is normal Thai practice. I also did not need my own lawyer as the agent was familiar with the purchase procedure (and it was in the agents interest to complete the transfer successfully to get his commission).

If I was selling my property independently I would not pay the buyers agent's commission unless he brought me an unsolicited buyer, like a finder's fee. This is not the case here. The seller did not use an agent because he didn't want to pay for one. This might be a Thai practice but this is usually not done between foreigners.

Edited July 9, 2014 by ThaiBob

[KittenKong]

5. Do not give him money yet. If he wants cash, be sure you have your witnesses to count the cash.

If anyone wanted cash from me I would just walk away and buy another condo. There are thousands for sale here, so no obvious reason to take any risks.

[KittenKong]

If you find an agent to help with your purchase it is normal for the seller to pay the agent's commission. But as this is going to cost 2% or more, ....

Not at all. If anyone just helps with the purchase (legal help, translations etc) without actually having introduced the buyer to the property and to the vendor then they are due a previously negotiated fee per hour for their time, but not commission.

And the vendor is never liable for any such fee for help incurred by the buyer. If the vendor also wants help then he can arrange his own and pay for it. To me the whole point of getting such help is that it should be entirely independent, and not coming from anyone connected with the sale in any way.

[JesseFrank]

5. Do not give him money yet. If he wants cash, be sure you have your witnesses to count the cash.

If anyone wanted cash from me I would just walk away and buy another condo. There are thousands for sale here, so no obvious reason to take any risks.

So you suggest that the seller takes his property off the market and wait for your funds to be transferred from abroad and all the other paperwork cleared without receiving a deposit ?

Dream on boys

[ThaiBob]

5. Do not give him money yet. If he wants cash, be sure you have your witnesses to count the cash.

If anyone wanted cash from me I would just walk away and buy another condo. There are thousands for sale here, so no obvious reason to take any risks.

Me too, but what if your buyer had no Thai bank account and wanted to pay you cash. Cash transactions are very common here.

[ThaiBob]

5. Do not give him money yet. If he wants cash, be sure you have your witnesses to count the cash.

If anyone wanted cash from me I would just walk away and buy another condo. There are thousands for sale here, so no obvious reason to take any risks.

So you suggest that the seller takes his property off the market and wait for your funds to be transferred from abroad and all the other paperwork cleared without receiving a deposit ?

Dream on boys

If I wanted a property from a private seller I would have no problem with giving a good faith deposit. In return of course I get copies of his passport, id, chanote, and receipt.

[KittenKong]

Me too, but what if your buyer had no Thai bank account and wanted to pay you cash. Cash transactions are very common here.

As a vendor I wouldn't be too bothered about receiving cash (assuming I had a bodyguard!). But as a buyer I would not be prepared to pay cash. The OP is buying.

In theory it isnt possible for a farang to buy without a certificate from his bank showing the funds came from abroad. So in theory any farang buyer would have to have a bank account. (Yes, I know that these certificates are sometimes "facilitated" by banks, agents etc.)

[KittenKong]

If anyone wanted cash from me I would just walk away and buy another condo. There are thousands for sale here, so no obvious reason to take any risks.

So you suggest that the seller takes his property off the market and wait for your funds to be transferred from abroad and all the other paperwork cleared without receiving a deposit ?

Dream on boys

So you seriously imagine that another buyer is going to come along during the few days it takes to arrange a sale? If so it is you who can carry on dreaming.

Most serious buyers would have arranged their funds in advance anyway, so the only thing to wait for is the debt-free certificate.

Most condos hang around for sale here for months or years on end, and for every real buyer there must be 500 units for sale, or more.

Never forget the old adage: property in Thailand is easy to buy and hard to sell.

[ThaiBob]

Me too, but what if your buyer had no Thai bank account and wanted to pay you cash. Cash transactions are very common here.

As a vendor I wouldn't be too bothered about receiving cash (assuming I had a bodyguard!). But as a buyer I would not be prepared to pay cash. The OP is buying.

In theory it isnt possible for a farang to buy without a certificate from his bank showing the funds came from abroad. So in theory any farang buyer would have to have a bank account. (Yes, I know that these certificates are sometimes "facilitated" by banks, agents etc.)

I'm with you, my preference is bank electronic transfers, no matter what end of the transaction I am on. With that said I have withdrawn money and gone to the Land Office with over a million baht on my person. For a Thai it is no big deal, for me it was a big deal, and yes I had my body guards. At the Land Office the money was counted at least four times by representatives (family, friends) of the parties involved.

[dragonaus]

Call Mark Welch ( Director) at One Stop Real estate, he is the most ethical guy in Pattaya. i have known him for a few years and bought from him last year. he will point you in the right direction.

I know most of the Real Estate guys in Pattaya and Mark is streets ahead.

Very trustworthy.

[Basil B]

Best use a Real Estate agent or solicitor, but shop around for best price.

the actual money/deeds transfer takes place at the Land Registry, also there will be fees and taxes to pay which depend a lot on how long the seller has had the property, you must agree who pays what but often the deal is 50/50%.

Also find out if you are getting a good deal, see if there are other properties for sale and better still see if you can find out about recent sale prices, go see the Juristic Person if you can and get as much information on the condominium and judge how well it is run, ask about for people who own condos in the same condominium and get their views, be wary of renters they have a different agenda.

Just another point even though the condo is in a foreign name check with the Juristic Person that there will be no issue with transferring to you as a foreigner, also the seller will need a letter "Free of Debt" stating there is no debt on the property from the JP.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Basil B

[CHdiver]

You do not need a Real Estate Agent, what you need is a good Lawyer, Magna Carta has a very good reputation.

[Basil B]

Agree, a lawyer will charge you for their time, a Real Estate will charge you 5%, had this when I was selling, even though I had a buyer, even then there were extra charges including a supposedly under the counter fee at the land registry.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Basil B

[KittenKong]

.... a Real Estate will charge you 5%, had this when I was selling, even though I had a buyer, even then there were extra charges ....

And you paid? Seems like there really is one born every minute.

You should just tell the agent that he can take a fixed fee for his time with a smile or #$%! off with nothing. Up to him.

[loginwith]

Thanks for all the advice. I appreciate it very much!

Here is a summary of what I have learnt so far (no particular order):

#1 Dont pay anything in advance and only pay the vendor using a bank draft in his name at the time of the transfer at the Land Office.

#2 Finding an English-speaking Thai person (entirely unrelated to the sale) who can translate for you at the Land Office.

#3 Hire lawyer to help with the transaction (realtor wouldn't make much sense, since no finder's fee in this case). Expect to pay a fee around 10000 baht

#4 Get the front and back copy of chanote (deed)

#5 Establish who pays the the [6.3%] transfer costs at the Land Office? Often this is 50/50 but negotiable.

#6 There are no encumbrances with the Home Owners Association? check with manager or juristic person. If any, he must clear.

#7 You must bring your money from outside the country (transferred electronically) so a Thai bank can issue you a FET form. This helps you repatriate your money should you leave Thailand.

#8 Do not give him money yet. If he wants cash [for deposit], be sure you have your witnesses to count the cash. Get Receipt.

#9 check monthly (maintenance) costs

I guess the key information is that it would be reasonable to pay only (immediately) after the title has been transferred at the Land Office. The Land Office could be trusted generally.


Now I have two more questions.

Is it common in Pattaya to have the unit inspected by an "expert" (and where should I look for such a "home inspector")? I basically don't have any clue about any technical aspects like water, pipes, infrastructure (I probably didn't even list the most important "stuff").


Point #7 basically implies the following would not be possible, right? "Paying seller from my Account in European country A to Account in European country A or B (to avoid exchange losses)"?

[Basil B]

.... a Real Estate will charge you 5%, had this when I was selling, even though I had a buyer, even then there were extra charges ....

And you paid? Seems like there really is one born every minute.

You should just tell the agent that he can take a fixed fee for his time with a smile or #$%! off with nothing. Up to him.

It's a long story, I had someone say the would buy it then it kind of dragged on, I had also spoken with certain Real Estate company, the buyer thought we could just go down the Land Registry, in actual fact it would take over a week to process the "free of debt" letter this was a Friday and I was flying out on Monday so needed someone to handle the sale in my absence.

It was fire salvage, I needed to sell and I had a buyer, had I had the time yes I would have shopped around for a better deal.

By the way the buyer had cash, and as I understand it the money has to be on the table at the land registry, not sure if bankers drafts or company checks are accepted.

[KittenKong]

It's a long story, I had someone say the would buy it then it kind of dragged on, I had also spoken with certain Real Estate company, the buyer thought we could just go down the Land Registry, in actual fact it would take over a week to process the "free of debt" letter this was a Friday and I was flying out on Monday so needed someone to handle the sale in my absence.

It was fire salvage, I needed to sell and I had a buyer, had I had the time yes I would have shopped around for a better deal.

By the way the buyer had cash, and as I understand it the money has to be on the table at the land registry, not sure if bankers drafts or company checks are accepted.

That's a shame. When someone has you over a barrel you do just have to bend.

The payment is not checked at all by the LO when registering a transfer, and there is certainly no obligation to show cash (apart from the LO taxes/fees which are always paid in cash).

[PattayaPhom]

5. Do not give him money yet. If he wants cash, be sure you have your witnesses to count the cash.

If anyone wanted cash from me I would just walk away and buy another condo. There are thousands for sale here, so no obvious reason to take any risks.

Almost every trnasfer involves cash also. Funds are required for transfer fees and taxes which the owner expects as part payment along with Cashiers Cheque

[ThaiBob]

Thanks for all the advice. I appreciate it very much!

Here is a summary of what I have learnt so far (no particular order):

#1 Dont pay anything in advance and only pay the vendor using a bank draft in his name at the time of the transfer at the Land Office.

#2 Finding an English-speaking Thai person (entirely unrelated to the sale) who can translate for you at the Land Office.

#3 Hire lawyer to help with the transaction (realtor wouldn't make much sense, since no finder's fee in this case). Expect to pay a fee around 10000 baht

#4 Get the front and back copy of chanote (deed)

#5 Establish who pays the the [6.3%] transfer costs at the Land Office? Often this is 50/50 but negotiable.

#6 There are no encumbrances with the Home Owners Association? check with manager or juristic person. If any, he must clear.

#7 You must bring your money from outside the country (transferred electronically) so a Thai bank can issue you a FET form. This helps you repatriate your money should you leave Thailand.

#8 Do not give him money yet. If he wants cash [for deposit], be sure you have your witnesses to count the cash. Get Receipt.

#9 check monthly (maintenance) costs

I guess the key information is that it would be reasonable to pay only (immediately) after the title has been transferred at the Land Office. The Land Office could be trusted generally.

Now I have two more questions.

Is it common in Pattaya to have the unit inspected by an "expert" (and where should I look for such a "home inspector")? I basically don't have any clue about any technical aspects like water, pipes, infrastructure (I probably didn't even list the most important "stuff").

Point #7 basically implies the following would not be possible, right? "Paying seller from my Account in European country A to Account in European country A or B (to avoid exchange losses)"?

Pretty good summary. Re: #7, yes, foreigners can do transfers directly to their overseas accounts but complications could arise when you eventually sell the condo. Taxes must be paid on any profits and no Thai bank will do a foreign transfer of funds without proof of taxes being paid. If you have no FET then things could get very messy at tax time. Who knows, maybe years from now you will benefit from the exchange rate should you repatriate. Edited July 10, 2014 by Rimmer
Quotes fixed

[Basil B]

It's a long story, I had someone say the would buy it then it kind of dragged on, I had also spoken with certain Real Estate company, the buyer thought we could just go down the Land Registry, in actual fact it would take over a week to process the "free of debt" letter this was a Friday and I was flying out on Monday so needed someone to handle the sale in my absence.

It was fire salvage, I needed to sell and I had a buyer, had I had the time yes I would have shopped around for a better deal.

By the way the buyer had cash, and as I understand it the money has to be on the table at the land registry, not sure if bankers drafts or company checks are accepted.

That's a shame. When someone has you over a barrel you do just have to bend.

The payment is not checked at all by the LO when registering a transfer, and there is certainly no obligation to show cash (apart from the LO taxes/fees which are always paid in cash).

Well the real estate agent made a big play on they needed to show the money and his company could swing it because they could raise a company cheque that the land registry would accept, and I thought I was dealing at a time with a reputable company.

I could not even get a statement from them detailing the expenditure.

Wish I could name names but at the end of the day it is water under the bridge, I had to sell and it was a quick sale.

I could of held on for a better price, but it could still be on the market now at least I know not use them again.

[Pralaad]

Whatever happened to acquiring good old lawyer for the sale or purchase of property

[tropo]

After reading through this thread it has become clear that a good lawyer is only option for a first time buyer/seller. There's just too much that can go wrong if it's not done properly... and stay away from Real Estate Agents.

Edited July 10, 2014 by tropo

[Spaniel]

Good info, thanks for posting as I may be selling my Jomtien beach condo.

[KittenKong]

Well the real estate agent made a big play on they needed to show the money and his company could swing it because they could raise a company cheque that the land registry would accept, and I thought I was dealing at a time with a reputable company.

I could not even get a statement from them detailing the expenditure.

Apparently you have been seriously misled by this agent. Personally I would never trust an agent here; they all seem to care only about themselves and none I have met were in any way conscientious.

That said, for a normal farang condo purchase I dont think that a lawyer is necessary; just the presence of someone independent who can read Thai and translate and who is NOT party to the sale. Obviously a lawyer would do if you cant find anyone else.

Edited July 10, 2014 by KittenKong