Israel prepares for ground military operation, 98 dead in Gaza Strip airstrikes

[Ulysses G.]

OK I've said this twice already but you seem to have difficulty understanding. Try it another way:
 
You tell me how Gaza will be able to receive benefits from offshore oil and gas if it is not [part of] a nation?
 
Therefore in whose interest is it that Gaza never becomes part of a nation?
 
As Sir Les Patterson would say "Are you with me?"

I'm with you, but your question was already answered a few posts back. Please try to keep up.

 

 

The reason in a nutshell  ?
 
Natural gas fields off the coast of Gaza natural-gas-the-israeli-invasion-and-gaza-s-offshore-gas-fields/11680[/url]

Another silly conspiracy theory. If Israel's true intention was to control any oil deposits the last thing it would have done is withdraw from Gaza.

The tragedy is that Israel did offer to be a client state for the oil which would have provided an ability for the Gaza and West Bank to finance a strong economy for an indepedent state, but Hamas - as usual - said NO.
Hamas refused to engage in any agreements with Israel, consistent with its previous policy of burning to the ground greenhouses that Israel built to feed the people of Gaza or how it threatened with death any Palestinian who talked of peace with Israel or tried to go to Israel to work.  

.

 

Edited July 20, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

 

OK I'll try to use simpler language.... "shooting the messenger" ..when all else fails disparage the person when one is unable to actually argue the point.

I get it, like accusing other people of resorting to "Israeli propaganda techniques", when they are using a typical debating tactic that has nothing to do with Israel. I'm glad that you straightened that out.

 

 

Oh dear ...I suggest you read my post yet again.

 

VK called protesters for freedom in Gaza "lefties" which has in his mind at least disparaging/negative connotations i.e. an attempt to smear the protesters and thus ignore their message about Israel's murderous incursion into Gaza.

 

I don't know or care what VK's nationality is.

 

Yes, "shooting the messenger" is a common Israeli propaganda techinique. 

[Scott]

<Snipped>

 

But one day I would love to see Jews, Muslims and Christians living together peacefully again.

 

They are geographic neighbors for eternity. These transmigrations tend to happen when a permanent peace comes about one day.

 

Was there a time when they were living in peace?

 

(Serious question, by the way)

 

[dexterm]

 

OK I've said this twice already but you seem to have difficulty understanding. Try it another way:
 
You tell me how Gaza will be able to receive benefits from offshore oil and gas if it is not [part of] a nation?
 
Therefore in whose interest is it that Gaza never becomes part of a nation?
 
As Sir Les Patterson would say "Are you with me?"

I'm with you, but your question was already answered a few posts back. Please try to keep up.

 

 

The reason in a nutshell  ?
 
Natural gas fields off the coast of Gaza natural-gas-the-israeli-invasion-and-gaza-s-offshore-gas-fields/11680[/url]

Another silly conspiracy theory. If Israel's true intention was to control any oil deposits the last thing it would have done is withdraw from Gaza.

The tragedy is that Israel did offer to be a client state for the oil which would have provided an ability for the Gaza and West Bank to finance a strong economy for an indepedent state, but Hamas - as usual - said NO.
Hamas refused to engage in any agreements with Israel, consistent with its previous policy of burning to the ground greenhouses that Israel built to feed the people of Gaza or how it threatened with death any Palestinian who talked of peace with Israel or tried to go to Israel to work.  

.

 

 

 

A pity that you have belabored the same point for the last few posts then. No need to be rude.

[dexterm]

 

<Snipped>

 

But one day I would love to see Jews, Muslims and Christians living together peacefully again.

 

They are geographic neighbors for eternity. These transmigrations tend to happen when a permanent peace comes about one day.

 

Was there a time when they were living in peace?

 

(Serious question, by the way)

 

 

 

Yes, prior to 1896 when Theodor Herzl founded Zionism.

[Asiantravel]

 

<Snipped>

 

But one day I would love to see Jews, Muslims and Christians living together peacefully again.

 

They are geographic neighbors for eternity. These transmigrations tend to happen when a permanent peace comes about one day.

 

Was there a time when they were living in peace?

 

(Serious question, by the way)

 

 

 

 

 But surely it wouldn't harm to try would it? But how can peace ever be achieved if so much relating to these subjects is taboo and not even allowed to be mentioned in discussions?

 

[Ulysses G.]

Yes, "shooting the messenger" is a common Israeli propaganda techinique.

It's a common debating tactic used all over the world, all over this forum and by you as well. Trying to claim that it is a "Israeli propaganda techinique [sic]" is just plain absurd. Every typical deductive or inductive argument must be some sort of secret "Israeli propaganda techinique [sic]" too. 

Edited July 20, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[boomerangutang]

But one day I would love to see Jews, Muslims and Christians living together peacefully again.
They are geographic neighbors for eternity. These transmigrations tend to happen when a permanent peace comes about one day.

That region has had internecine armed conflicts for millenia. It's always been; 'whomever has the strongest army, rules.' Still true today. There were tribes occupying parts of that territory before the word Palestine existed.

Look at the geography: it's a bottleneck (or crossroads) between Africa and Europe and western Asia.
Look at its resources: Some black oil, lots of sunshine and sand. No forests, no lakes, and no wild fauna, very little flora. It's a crappy place for humans to try and habitate. It's like a barren ship left to drift at sea, and the remaining passengers keep procreating, while fighting among themselves for a few meager resources.

[dexterm]

 

But one day I would love to see Jews, Muslims and Christians living together peacefully again.
They are geographic neighbors for eternity. These transmigrations tend to happen when a permanent peace comes about one day.

That region has had internecine armed conflicts for millenia. It's always been; 'whomever has the strongest army, rules.' Still true today. There were tribes occupying parts of that territory before the word Palestine existed.

Look at the geography: it's a bottleneck (or crossroads) between Africa and Europe and western Asia.
Look at its resources: Some black oil, lots of sunshine and sand. No forests, no lakes, and no wild fauna, very little flora. It's a crappy place for humans to try and habitate. It's like a barren ship left to drift at sea, and the remaining passengers keep procreating, while fighting among themselves for a few meager resources.

 

 

I must disagree. The area is beautiful...climate, food, history, scenery culture. It's just religious and nationalist fanatics who have screwed it up. 

[kblaze]

 

 

Bill Clinton warns Israel on 'isolating itself from world opinion' 

 

 New Delhi (AFP) - Former US president Bill Clinton has warned Israel about "isolating itself from world opinion" due to repeated conflicts in Gaza after four children were killed on a beach in the latest violence.

http://news.yahoo.com/bill-clinton-warns-israel-isolating-itself-world-opinion-132921445.html

 

The world has had enough of the murderous Israeli aggression.  It's long past time for Israeli leaders to be brought up on war crimes charges.  If they're innocent, then let them prove it in court.

 

Hamas tactics are indeed about public relations.  

 

From your link:

 

 

"In the short to medium term, Hamas can inflict terrible public relations damage on Israel by forcing it to kill Palestinian civilians to counter Hamas," he added.

Hamas had a "strategy designed to force Israel to kill their own (Palestinian) civilians so the rest of the world will condemn them," while Israel couldn't "look like fools" by not responding to the heavy missile attacks.

 

 

 

That's Clinton giving his opinion on Hamas' strategy. Not Hamas explaining their strategy. Nice try.

[kblaze]

Hamas also does that for propaganda purposes of course ... to gain sympathy in the larger world. That effort has been effective.

 

 

Yeah sure Hamas has Twitter and has a facebook that is in 90% arabic. Reaaaalllly pushin the propaganda on the West eh... 

 

Israel on the other hand...

 

http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/government-it/israeli-propaganda-war-hits-social-media-20140717-ztvky.html

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/students-offered-grants-if-they-tweet-proisraeli-propaganda-8760142.html

 

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-student-union-sets-war-room-sell-gaza-massacre-facebook

[Jingthing]

Clinton speaks the truth. Hamas speaks too. They are very clear -- DESTROY ISRAEL. Israel must react. Any country would. People who fault Israel's right to defend themselves against a terrorist force that openly seeks to destroy them are total hypocrites. If it was their country, they would be even more hawkish than Israel about it. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand why. 

[Ulysses G.]

That's Clinton giving his opinion on Hamas' strategy. Not Hamas explaining their strategy. Nice try.

 
Like Hamas is really going to admit that Clinton has them all sussed out:
 
Hamas had a "strategy designed to force Israel to kill their own (Palestinian) civilians so the rest of the world will condemn them," while Israel couldn't "look like fools" by not responding to the heavy missile attacks.
http://news.yahoo.com/bill-clinton-warns-israel-isolating-itself-world-opinion-132921445.html

[Jingthing]

 

Hamas also does that for propaganda purposes of course ... to gain sympathy in the larger world. That effort has been effective.

 

 

Yeah sure Hamas has Twitter and has a facebook that is in 90% arabic. Reaaaalllly pushin the propaganda on the West eh... 

 

Israel on the other hand...

 

http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/government-it/israeli-propaganda-war-hits-social-media-20140717-ztvky.html

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/students-offered-grants-if-they-tweet-proisraeli-propaganda-8760142.html

 

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-student-union-sets-war-room-sell-gaza-massacre-facebook

 

We're not that stupid. The images are all over the media, all over the world. 

[Ulysses G.]

We're not that stupid. The images are all over the media, all over the world.

 

Good for them - countering the Hamas lies and spin.  

According to Igal Raich, a 23-year-old IDC student who volunteers in what is called "The Advocacy Room", the project aims to counter what is perceived as a false representation of Israel in international and social media through Facebook, Twitter and YouTube.
“It is run by students who are all volunteers” 

http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/government-it/israeli-propaganda-war-hits-social-media-20140717-z.html

[Pakboong]

All of this breaks down for me when I make an elementary effort to put the 4 primary criminal elements to the situation. Motive, Means, Opportunity and Cui Bono. Cui Bono is the only one of the 4 elements that will often trump the other 3. Motive is easy, terror or revenge, Means is a bit cloudy based upon a very simple capability, Opportunity doesn't add up to the Palestinians, they are trapped behind a wall with very limited mobility. Cui Bono is where it really breaks down for me. The Palestinians gain no benefit from any of this. I guess you could argue that world opinion is tilting in their direction but that is not really a serious benefit in this particular example. I think the current body count is 340 to 4. Not much benefit there.

[Ulysses G.]

You keep repeating this conspiracy theory ad nauseam . Declaring war on Israel didn't work, but the Palestinians did it over and over again. Terrorism didn't work, but they are still doing it today.  None of these things have resulted in a "serious benefit," but they have been repeating them for something like 100 years. If you are looking for logic, you are not going to find it in the Palestinian leadership or the Palestinian cause. 

 

 

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

-Albert Einstein

Edited July 20, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Pakboong]

You keep repeating this conspiracy theory repeatedly. Declaring war on Israel didn't work, but the Palestinians did it over and over again. Terrorism didn't work, but they are still doing it today  None of these things had a "serious benefit," but they have been doing them for something like 100 years. If you are looking for logic, you are not going to find it in the Palestinian cause. 

 

 

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

-Albert Einstein

All I am saying that it is not a slam dunk for me. I do not have a tribal motive to be on one side or the other. If on the other hand, you find it to be a slam dunk, simply let it go at that. I however, need some convincing and I don't need to call that a conspiracy theory. The elements do not add up as easy for me as they do for you. There is nothing wrong with that, it happens.

[Asiantravel]

 Well at least this woman doesn't hide her feelings about her proposed solution for Gaza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TkCBK4-5tRI

[Johpa]

Call it what you like: one state Palisrael, Israelistine? or a federation of states Gaza, West Bank and Israel, or a two state solution Israel and Palestine, both members of the EU eventually.

 

But one day I would love to see Jews, Muslims and Christians living together peacefully again.

 

They are geographic neighbors for eternity. These transmigrations tend to happen when a permanent peace comes about one day.

 

 

Again, the root Palestinian cause is not to have any type of two-state solution but rather the eradication of the State of Israel and, at the most optimistic, the imposition of a Dhimmi status (look it up) upon any remaining Jews.  Currently there is no solution to the conundrum and as long as Hamas is willing to fire missiles into Israel and accept the civilian casualties then the people of Gaza will continue to suffer. Odd how there was no similar outcry when Hamas executed over 600 Gazians who happened to have been supporters of the Palestinian Authority. People have no feelings when Muslims die at the hands of other Muslims but get all bent out of shape when they die from Israeli actions.  It is not only the Palestinian vs. Israeli casualty rate that shows an imbalance.

[Ulysses G.]

Again, the root Palestinian cause is not to have any type of two-state solution but rather the eradication of the State of Israel and, at the most optimistic, the imposition of a Dhimmi status (look it up) upon any remaining Jews.

Dhimmi=REAL Apartheid - South African style - and that is the "most optimistic" possibility.

[kingalfred]

Israeli animals , no concern for civilians. they can be barbaric as they like,there will be countries support Palestine against the hypocrites in Washington etc. Makes folk turn to another to lead the free world because Obama administration has shown little leadership


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[up-country_sinclair]

75% of the casualties in Gaza have been civilians. 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/21/world/middleeast/gaza-israel.html

[Ulysses G.]

75% of the casualties in Gaza have been civilians. 

 

 According to Palestinian sources. Would they ever lie? 

 

This is almost certainly false, as a look at the numbers by CAMERA shows. The Gaza population has the predictable demographic qualities: half men and half women, many children, etc. If 77% of the casualties were civilians, we would see that reflected in the figures. If there is a huge over-representation of males of combat age in the casualty figures, it’s fair to assume that’s because Israel is targeting and hitting combatants. And so it is: 

http://blogs.cfr.org/abrams/2014/07/16/casualties-in-gaza/

Edited July 20, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

US Secretary of State says what he really thinks about Israel's invasion of Gaza when he assumes no one is listening:

You mean, “It’s a hell of a pinpoint operation, it’s a hell of a pinpoint operation,”. Wow. That is not exactly damning, although you seem to want to spin it that way.   

[Pattszero]

This is going to end badly for Israel.   Far too many dead, on both sides, far too much destruction - and far too much damage being done to Israel's world standing.  

[Jingthing]

This is going to end badly for Israel.   Far too many dead, on both sides, far too much destruction - and far too much damage being done to Israel's world standing.  

Israel needs to prioritize stopping the rocket attacks over world public opinion.  Being liked is sometimes a luxury item. 

[Johpa]

This is going to end badly for Israel.   Far too many dead, on both sides, far too much destruction - and far too much damage being done to Israel's world standing.  

 

Well that is the strategic plan of Hamas: force Israel to respond militarily and thus sacrifice their own civilians for the lowering of "world standing" aka public opinion.  And it has worked rather well as we see many people crying that Israel should not respond militarily to the Hamas attacks and villifying Israel for responding to attacks upon their population.  We even see one prime example below, as well as many lesser examples, here on ThaiVisa.

 

 

Israeli animals , no concern for civilians. they can be barbaric as they like

[Morch]

 

 

Israel got a rather large Arab minority (20%) with full
civic rights and political representation - seems a bit far fetched to use the Apartheid tag, even if it scores some points.

Far fetched? Ridiculous would be more like it. 

 

 

No, not ridiculous at all. Many "non-extremists" have made the comparison, either to the present situation or to the road the present situation is on.

 

In fact Kerry said it could happen under a 1 state solution (he had to clarify that he wasn't calling it an apartheid state, only that it could)

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/29/politics/kerry-apartheid-controversy/

 

a UN rapporteur...

http://electronicintifada.net/content/un-rapporteur-compares-israel-apartheid-south-africa/6779

 

Former South African ambassador...

http://www.timesofisrael.com/south-african-diplomat-says-israel-built-on-stolen-land/

 

Noble Peace Prize Laureate...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.599422

 

 

Kerry withdrew his remark, as far as I recall (and yes, probably to do with AIPAC).

 

Dugard was representing the UNCHR (the predecessor of UNHRC), which devoted quite a lot of its efforts to dealing with Israel, while having quite a lot of members who weren't that big on human rights when it came to their own people. Dugard's reports were heavily criticized as being one-sided.
 

Desmond Tutu, Noble Peace Prize aside (Obama got one too....), has long been quite opinionated, not to say biased, when it comes to issues concerning Israel.

 

If you'll put your mind to it, there are better sources and persons to be used in trying to make the claim. Not necessarily make the claim right, of course, facts being what they are.

[dexterm]

 

This is going to end badly for Israel.   Far too many dead, on both sides, far too much destruction - and far too much damage being done to Israel's world standing.  

 

Well that is the strategic plan of Hamas: force Israel to respond militarily and thus sacrifice their own civilians for the lowering of "world standing" aka public opinion.  And it has worked rather well as we see many people crying that Israel should not respond militarily to the Hamas attacks and villifying Israel for responding to attacks upon their population.  We even see one prime example below, as well as many lesser examples, here on ThaiVisa.

 

 

Israeli animals , no concern for civilians. they can be barbaric as they like

 

 

People seem to forget that Israel started this present round of violence.by blaming Hamas for kidnapping 3 Israeli teenagers without a shred of evidence. Turns out that was probably the work of a rogue Hebron clan.

 

This invasion is all an Israeli setup, and Hamas fell into their trap.