Israel is using a sledgehammer to crack nuts

[Ulysses G.]

Is all that convoluted spin your idea of an apology for being disingenuous.about insisting "that is exactly the claim that Netanyahu made" which is patently untrue? 

 

FYI: One suspect has been arrested. Two other prime suspects have been missing from their homes in Hebron’s Hares neighborhood ever since the kidnapping and killings took place. The authorities are searching for them now.

 
 

Edited July 15, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Bkungbank]

Pope have call for peace in Middle East to stop violence on humanity, Let's us pray no barrier on religion Muslim, Jews, Christian and Buddhism are one world and under God's children, We should no killing each other under religion names. 

 

Tomorrow will be better, Amen!

[Scott]

More off-topic, inflammatory posts have been removed.   Continue posting in this manner if you wish to earn a suspension.  

 

There is a topic and that what is to be discussed in this thread.  

[seedy]

This thread is a mirror of what is happening in Gaza and Israel.

 

Neither side will budge. We are right and you are wrong.

 

Ever heard the phrase - "There is no such thing as black and white, just shades of gray"

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

I do not think it was claimed that they were operating on direct orders from Hamas Central in Gaza, though.

 

 
...but that is exactly the claim that Netanyahu made

 

No it isn't. At least I see no reports of it. Other people said Hamas was directly behind the killing and there is no evidence that they have it wrong.

 

 

 

 

Ulysses G., on 14 Jul 2014 - 23:49, said:

 

dexterm, on 14 Jul 2014 - 23:28, said:

 

Morch, on 14 Jul 2014 - 22:03, said:

 

dexterm, on 14 Jul 2014 - 15:14, said:

The killers are definitely Hamas people, details pertaining to this were all over media. 

I do not think it was claimed that they were operating on direct orders from Hamas Central in Gaza, though.

 

 

...but that is exactly the claim that Netanyahu made

 

 

No it isn't. At least I see no reports of it. Other people said Hamas was directly behind the killing and there is no evidence that they have it wrong.

 

 

Well then you are not looking hard enough.. try The Jerusalem Post and Haaretz

Netanyahu said in a statement:..."Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay. May the memories of the three boys be blessed." 

 

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.602235

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Brothers-Keeper/Netanyahu-Hamas-will-pay-for-the-murders-the-three-youths-361070

 

>>there is no evidence that they have it wrong.

 

So Israeli justice is accuse anyone you like of any crime you like without any evidence, bomb the hell out of them and then tell them they must prove their innocence.

 

You’re using the old “Have you stopped beating your wife yet?” trick.

 

Hamas rather than claim responsibility as they did when they kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, they immediately told Netanyahu his claims were ridiculous, and they were.

 

This quick murder was the work of a couple of rogue vengeful Palestinians killers pissed off at the abuse they had received from the illegal Israeli squatters at Gush Etzion, where the teens studied

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27883685

They made no attempt to use their captives as bargaining chips to get Hamas members released from Israeli jails.

 

The murder was in no way helpful to Hamas, but it has proved a windfall for Netanyahu...destroy Hamas’ new alliance with the PA and win votes by whipping up some bloodlust...it worked last time they invaded Gaza just before an Israeli election.

 

 

 

 

 

Having a bit of a hard time following your posts, the way you cut quotes and mix them in your post.  That's without going into cutting half a sentence of what I posted and taking it out of context.

 

I do not see that Netanyahu said their were getting their instructions directly from Hamas leadership in Gaza. What he did say is that he holds Hamas leadership responsible (the full version in the first link is PFR). That the Hamas leadership was beside itself with joy over this is documented, that they repeatedly said kidnapping is the way to go is documented.

 

Keep bringing up the no evidence bit - not sure what you're on about. The two killers are Hamas people, and this was covered in numerous media reports. The third guy arrested later as an accomplice is also Hamas man.

 

I do not believe that you know what went on during the kidnapping. The killing could have been premeditated, or it could have been a plan gone wrong. There are not enough clear details on this, a lot of rumors though.

 

The same goes for your assertions regarding the motivations of the killers. Just two guys who got fed up, right. Nothing to do with prior arrests, Hamas membership, family imprisoned. They were just pissed at settlers, not even ones next door to their place.

 

The link that you provided, has nothing to do with the killers, it has to do with a Christian family, and its a well known story, more power to them. Their approach is to be commended, it is by no means prevalent. Mixing their way with the Hamas ways really takes the cake.

 

That the murder was not in any way helpful to Hamas - well, not everything always goes as planned. World views that do not allow for mistakes and random events often go hand in hand with religion and/or conspiracy theories.

 

The Hamas had it own reasons to wish for a showdown, these were detailed in previous posts - mostly to do with economic crisis and losing ground to hardline organizations. The Palestinian reconciliation agreement with the PA was far from being a done deal (this was also discussed in previous posts), mostly due to the PA refusing to unconditionally cover Hamas's bills and Hamas's refusal to hand over control of its armed wing.  Traditionally, one way to overcome such difficulties is to direct attention at an outside enemy - in this case the choice is easy.

 

The windfall for Netanyahu is far from guaranteed. As noted, the PA-Hamas agreement was heading toward disaster on it own volition. Public support is tricky, as most of it goes to hardliner elements in his coalitions which demand tougher stance and action, while Netanyahu can't (or won't) go the full mile (at least for now).  In general, this is a repeat of the 2012 hostilities - which electorally were not a boon for Netanyahu - he's seen as hesitant and too soft, big on words and less so on action. The reserve soldiers called up for duty and waiting outside of Gaza, for the second time in two years, are not amused.

 

 

[Pakboong]

 

 

 

"I can only imagine the reaction if Cambodia was lobbing rockets into Thailand.

 

Or if Ireland was doing the same to the UK"

 

Of course the Irish did just that but I don't recall any British retaliatory airstrikes on civilians. The OP was about proportionality remember and Israel will never succeed with these tactics.

 

"Clearly the "Jewish vote" is not as critical as say the HIspanic vote".

 

When it comes to US foreign policy the "Jewish Vote" is way more influential, largely as a result of the huge amounts of money they can mobilize. Just check out the influence Sheldon Adelson has and he is only one man.

 

 

'They did not invade the country and they certainly have not enslaved a population"

 

Really? Been to the West Bank lately?

 

What would be a "proportionate" reaction to rockets being launched indiscriminately at civilian targets?  Would setting up an equivalent system returning indiscriminate rocket fire at the Gaza Strip be better?  Perhaps Israel ought to dismantle the Iron Dome defense systems as well, just for that sense of fair play?

 

The Jewish lobby in the USA is indeed powerful. Probably too much so. Then again, so are other lobbies and influence groups - big pharma, weapon industry, NRA, Oil & Gas, Saudi Arabia....

 

There West Bank, or at least large parts of it are most definitely occupied by Israel, one way or another.  The Gaza Strip is not.  The populations is not "enslaved" by Israel in either place.  The rockets are not being launched from the West Bank, but from the Gaza Strip.

 

Its an important point you make but I would twist it around and ask the question, "why are no rockets fired from the West Bank"? They are Palestinians who have the same view as those from Gaza. What really makes them different.  The targets in the West Bank would be so much easier to hit. The Palestinians don't fear dying so why no attacks from the West Bank. There is a simple failure of consistency here and there are no simple explanations. Believe me, I have heard several hundred explanations but never one anywhere close to my satisfaction.If the Palestinians believe in using their kids for human shields, why don't they simply use them as suicide bombers in the settlements?

 

The stories we are told about Suicide Bombers, Human Shields, etc.. just don't hold up in the court of public opinion. I have had hundreds try to answer this and I have never gotten a reasonable answer. I almost always ask it as a rhetorical question.

 

The conclusion for those of us who have no dog in the fight is illogical.  Nobody is going to sell me  some lame explanation, If these things about Palestinians are true of Gaza they must also be true of the West Bank,.

 

Given that the IDF knows exactly where the underground rocket launchers are located, and I know the area is under constant watch, how do these rockets get fired? Keeping in mind of course, that no rockets are being fired from the West Bank. Why do these Palestinians only fire rockets toward the desert from behind the wall and kill only 26 Israelis in 14 years when all they have to do is fire into the settlements and get a much better kill rate with no expense or effort. It is the Settlements that they are angry about so why not take it out on the settlers. The Palestinians after all do not care if they become martyred so what difference would it make? They wouldn't have to go to the trouble to smuggle in explosives, they would have to stockpile rockets, etc.. To say that they could get way more bang for the buck is  a huge understatement.

 

The obvious conclusion is, the Israelis allow the rockets to be fired over the wall from Gaza. There is no other explanation that makes sense to somebody who has no dog in the fight. The opportunities for a suicide bomber are much greater in the west bank than they are in Gaza.

 

 

As with most things to do with this situation there can be more than one explanation.

 

The PA, which represents a somewhat more moderate element of Palestinian society as compared to the Hamas, and specifically, Abbas - who is more a politician than a staunch warrior, advocate a more cooperative and careful strategy when it comes to Israel. While this is severely put to the test on a daily basis, it still holds to a degree.

 

Palestinians in the West Bank may have to deal with IDF road blocks, illegal settlements, abusive settlers and many restrictions, but - and it's a big but, they're daily lives are nowhere as bad the those of the Palestinians down in Gaza.  In other words, more to lose and a leadership less vehement in its opposition to Israel.

 

From another angle, setting up an array of rocket launchers, rocket storage facilities, manufacturing facilities, testing grounds, smuggling in materials and components - this is a major undertaking which needs huge funding, secrecy, and not being less exposed to Israeli eyes. It would be much harder for the Palestinians in the West Bank to set up something approaching Gaza's rocket capability.

 

Not signing up to the "Palestinians aren't afraid of dying" thing. Just that in the Gaza Strip they are more desperate and more on-board with Islamic frevor. Are there "Palestinians" as a whole? All acting the same? Doubt it. Makes it easier to talk about things, but not necessarily a reality, same as there is no unified Israeli view on most things. As for human shields, this does not always take the form of a Mom standing defiant holding her infant in the face of attacking airplanes. Same would apply for forcing a family to use a cellar for storing rockets, giving up a floor to house Hamas members, digging a rocket launcher near the local school.  Suicide bombers got a much harder time getting through nowadays, Israeli security, especially in the West Bank can be a PITA for everyone. Nevertheless, there was actually a Palestinian who tried this a few days after the boy's murder.

Didn't go so well. With Gaza being made irrelevant as far as suicide bombers go, Israeli security agencies had a go at the more militant elements of Hamas and Fatah in the West Bank - to a large degree, this was a successful move.

 

Since you seem to hold that all Palestinians are the same, and all explanations are lame, not sure what you really wish to hear on this?  Apologies for not supplying a proper unified conspiracy theory themed explanation. There is none.

 

The high regard in which you hold Israeli intelligence does not reflect what the IDF itself says on the subject of Gaza.  They do not claim to know where every launcher is located, but they did say that once they do launch they are easy to locate and attack. So, not a given. The rockets are mostly launched from underground dugouts, often remote operated and sometimes timed (as to produce a sequenced salvo). Some are pre-positioned, and some can be re-calibrated.

 

The rockets are not fired at "the desert", opening a map would show that pretty clearly. While many land in what is often designated "open areas", that could mean anything from a field, a road, a parking lot. There is no "wall" to shoot the rockets over. The number of fatalities is actually over 60, but guess that would not change your argument much.

 

The obvious conclusion is that you have a warped view of Palestinians, of their internal divisions and different motivations. Combined with an insistence on simplistic explanations and a leaning toward conspiracy theories, and consistently ignoring simple facts, it may lead one to assume all sort of silliness.

 

Thanks for your well written and comprehensive response. The subject is a tough one and I try and keep it as simple as my little mind can handle. The Israelis claim there are somewhere around 10,000 rockets currently stored in Gaza. Over 99% of which are the homemade Qassam type which have a range of 3-7 miles. It is obvious to me that from Gaza, nothing of any importance is within that range. What is the point in having that many rockets in Gaza. I understand all the logistics remote firing etc.. but there is no point if there is nothing to hit. I get the fear effect the rockets have on the population but that can often be used internally for control.

 

There may be fewer places to hide rockets in Gaza than in the West Bank but I don't believe that to be true. I can't prove it of course but I do know that the Palestinians in the West Bank do not like the Israelis any more than the ones in Gaza do. In fact, it is the settlements which remain the greatest bone of contention. Again, can't prove it, just a belief. Kinda like the human shield belief which I don't really buy. I can't get past the notion that there is nothing to hit firing from Gaza with rockets which have a range of 3-7 miles. and in fact after firing 14,000 rockets since 2000 only 26 have died matters to whatever conclusion you choose to believe. If you want to use your figure of 60, nothing changes. I do have a list of names, ages and location if you would like. The number of children is roughly the same percentage of the total as is the total of children in the current conflict which have died in Gaza.

 

I am not saying it would be easier to smuggle into Gaza than to the West Bank. But, it doesn't matter once the smuggling is done, you still do not have anything worth using.

 

This is something that I have been talking, writing and thinking about for years. Nobody has offered an opinion that has led me to believe otherwise. Of course I get referred to as a Conspiracy Whacko or an Anti Semite but nothing has made sense regarding these rocket attacks so, until something does at least start to make sense, I remain entrenched in my position as a "Rocket Attack Denier"

 

I acknowledge that the Palestinians aren't the smartest people on the earth but the Palestinians in Gaza are not less smart than those in the West Bank.

 

This crisis will settle down and the next crisis will be a mirror of the last. A bunch of rockets not hitting anything and a bunch of Palestinians killed in air strikes. In the mean time, the Palestinians will be risking life and limb to build and smuggle rockets into an area from which the is nothing to hit.

 

[dexterm]

Grant,

 

>>The two killers are Hamas people, and this was covered in numerous media reports. The third guy arrested later as an accomplice is also Hamas man.

 

..you still don’t get the point do you? 3 untried suspects with political affiliations but no instructions or orders from above somehow force Israel’s hands to bomb more than 200 Gazans to death.

..and you still don’t apply your  same warped logic to the 3 Israeli thugs who burnt the Palestinian boy. Which according to you could make the entire Likud party responsible for their crime.

 

>> The same goes for your assertions regarding the motivations of the killers. Just two guys who got fed up

..I didn’t say that. I said pissed off with Israeli abuse.

..who knows what their motivations actually were. But the clairvoyant Netanyahu and you seem to be able to read their minds.

 

>> mostly to do with economic crisis and losing ground to hardline organizations.

..well they’ve certainly got themselves a bigger economic crisis now haven’t they. Hamas have repeatedly offered an indefinite truce with Israel, and they had been trying to control rogue groups until Israel manufactured this present conflict.

 

>> The windfall for Netanyahu is far from guaranteed.... Public support is tricky

Better read this then  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-eu-pushes-for-ceasefire-but-israelis-back-benjamin-netanyahu-and-want-bombardment-to-continue-9605927.html

....Netanyahu riding a new wave of popularity amongst Israelis baying for more blood.

 

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

that they were operating on direct orders from Hamas Central in Gaza, though.

 

 
...but that is exactly the claim that Netanyahu made

 

Wrong. It is NOT the claim that Netanyahu made. You posted:

"Well then you are not looking hard enough.. try The Jerusalem Post and Haaretz. Netanyahu said in a statement:..."Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay. May the memories of the three boys be blessed."

It was members of Hamas. There is no doubt about it, but, Netanyahu never said that they were "operating on direct orders from Hamas Central in Gaza". YOU made that up.

 

So according to your warped logic if the 3 Israeli thugs who today admitted burning alive Mohammed Khdeir belonged to the Israeli Likud party, then the Likud party itself is entirely responsible and any of the 885,000 Israelis who voted for them in the last election is therefore a legitimate target?

 

I think that’s called collective punishment. I wonder if the IDF will demolish the homes of the 3 Israeli murderers who recently confessed. Is theirs not terrorism too?

 

>> It was members of Hamas. There is no doubt about it

 

..seems like Netanyahu is clairvoyant too..only one person has been arrested for the murders Husam Dofsh who phoned an Israeli news station to protest his innocence.

 

So lets get this right, you now justify Israel’s collective punishment killing of over 200 Palestinians, many of them innocent women and children and disabled, not because any Hamas leadership ordered the kidnappings, but on the strength of Netanyahu’s suspicions about possible perpetrators.

 

 

The Likud Party, as much as I do not agree with their policies is far from being a terrorist organization, and does not have a military wing specifically dedicated to executing terrorist actions. The Hamas does, and as such, it is deemed as a terrorist organization.

 

The Hamas's choice of conducting its terrorist attacks from within residential areas populated by its supporters is a choice. Hamas could just as well place its bases, launchers, weapons, and militia outside densely populated areas, thereby fully removing the risk to its voters, supporters and civilian under its care.

 

The Identity of the two killers as Hamas people was determined quite early in the investigation. Keep on denying that as you will, it was well documented on many a media channels.

 

There is no doubt who the perpetrators are, there is no doubt that they were acting in accordance with Hamas teachings. If the claim is that Hamas leadership carries no responsibility for what they preach - well, that's an opinion. Not sure that it carries more weight than others. If the claim is that this is a sort of collective punishment, well, the Hamas leadership can easily avoid making the population suffer - either move out of residential areas, or stop to incite people to carry out such actions as the kidnapping.

 

And please, do learn how to quote or at least quote the whole message instead of the bits which suite you.

[Morch]

This thread is a mirror of what is happening in Gaza and Israel.

 

Neither side will budge. We are right and you are wrong.

 

Ever heard the phrase - "There is no such thing as black and white, just shades of gray"

 

Considering your first post on this topic included something to the effect that Israel "enslaved" the Palestinians,

excuse me if I take your "balanced" view with a grain of salt.

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

What would be a "proportionate" reaction to rockets being launched indiscriminately at civilian targets?  Would setting up an equivalent system returning indiscriminate rocket fire at the Gaza Strip be better?  Perhaps Israel ought to dismantle the Iron Dome defense systems as well, just for that sense of fair play?

 

The Jewish lobby in the USA is indeed powerful. Probably too much so. Then again, so are other lobbies and influence groups - big pharma, weapon industry, NRA, Oil & Gas, Saudi Arabia....

 

There West Bank, or at least large parts of it are most definitely occupied by Israel, one way or another.  The Gaza Strip is not.  The populations is not "enslaved" by Israel in either place.  The rockets are not being launched from the West Bank, but from the Gaza Strip.

 

Its an important point you make but I would twist it around and ask the question, "why are no rockets fired from the West Bank"? They are Palestinians who have the same view as those from Gaza. What really makes them different.  The targets in the West Bank would be so much easier to hit. The Palestinians don't fear dying so why no attacks from the West Bank. There is a simple failure of consistency here and there are no simple explanations. Believe me, I have heard several hundred explanations but never one anywhere close to my satisfaction.If the Palestinians believe in using their kids for human shields, why don't they simply use them as suicide bombers in the settlements?

 

The stories we are told about Suicide Bombers, Human Shields, etc.. just don't hold up in the court of public opinion. I have had hundreds try to answer this and I have never gotten a reasonable answer. I almost always ask it as a rhetorical question.

 

The conclusion for those of us who have no dog in the fight is illogical.  Nobody is going to sell me  some lame explanation, If these things about Palestinians are true of Gaza they must also be true of the West Bank,.

 

Given that the IDF knows exactly where the underground rocket launchers are located, and I know the area is under constant watch, how do these rockets get fired? Keeping in mind of course, that no rockets are being fired from the West Bank. Why do these Palestinians only fire rockets toward the desert from behind the wall and kill only 26 Israelis in 14 years when all they have to do is fire into the settlements and get a much better kill rate with no expense or effort. It is the Settlements that they are angry about so why not take it out on the settlers. The Palestinians after all do not care if they become martyred so what difference would it make? They wouldn't have to go to the trouble to smuggle in explosives, they would have to stockpile rockets, etc.. To say that they could get way more bang for the buck is  a huge understatement.

 

The obvious conclusion is, the Israelis allow the rockets to be fired over the wall from Gaza. There is no other explanation that makes sense to somebody who has no dog in the fight. The opportunities for a suicide bomber are much greater in the west bank than they are in Gaza.

 

 

As with most things to do with this situation there can be more than one explanation.

 

The PA, which represents a somewhat more moderate element of Palestinian society as compared to the Hamas, and specifically, Abbas - who is more a politician than a staunch warrior, advocate a more cooperative and careful strategy when it comes to Israel. While this is severely put to the test on a daily basis, it still holds to a degree.

 

Palestinians in the West Bank may have to deal with IDF road blocks, illegal settlements, abusive settlers and many restrictions, but - and it's a big but, they're daily lives are nowhere as bad the those of the Palestinians down in Gaza.  In other words, more to lose and a leadership less vehement in its opposition to Israel.

 

From another angle, setting up an array of rocket launchers, rocket storage facilities, manufacturing facilities, testing grounds, smuggling in materials and components - this is a major undertaking which needs huge funding, secrecy, and not being less exposed to Israeli eyes. It would be much harder for the Palestinians in the West Bank to set up something approaching Gaza's rocket capability.

 

Not signing up to the "Palestinians aren't afraid of dying" thing. Just that in the Gaza Strip they are more desperate and more on-board with Islamic frevor. Are there "Palestinians" as a whole? All acting the same? Doubt it. Makes it easier to talk about things, but not necessarily a reality, same as there is no unified Israeli view on most things. As for human shields, this does not always take the form of a Mom standing defiant holding her infant in the face of attacking airplanes. Same would apply for forcing a family to use a cellar for storing rockets, giving up a floor to house Hamas members, digging a rocket launcher near the local school.  Suicide bombers got a much harder time getting through nowadays, Israeli security, especially in the West Bank can be a PITA for everyone. Nevertheless, there was actually a Palestinian who tried this a few days after the boy's murder.

Didn't go so well. With Gaza being made irrelevant as far as suicide bombers go, Israeli security agencies had a go at the more militant elements of Hamas and Fatah in the West Bank - to a large degree, this was a successful move.

 

Since you seem to hold that all Palestinians are the same, and all explanations are lame, not sure what you really wish to hear on this?  Apologies for not supplying a proper unified conspiracy theory themed explanation. There is none.

 

The high regard in which you hold Israeli intelligence does not reflect what the IDF itself says on the subject of Gaza.  They do not claim to know where every launcher is located, but they did say that once they do launch they are easy to locate and attack. So, not a given. The rockets are mostly launched from underground dugouts, often remote operated and sometimes timed (as to produce a sequenced salvo). Some are pre-positioned, and some can be re-calibrated.

 

The rockets are not fired at "the desert", opening a map would show that pretty clearly. While many land in what is often designated "open areas", that could mean anything from a field, a road, a parking lot. There is no "wall" to shoot the rockets over. The number of fatalities is actually over 60, but guess that would not change your argument much.

 

The obvious conclusion is that you have a warped view of Palestinians, of their internal divisions and different motivations. Combined with an insistence on simplistic explanations and a leaning toward conspiracy theories, and consistently ignoring simple facts, it may lead one to assume all sort of silliness.

 

Thanks for your well written and comprehensive response. The subject is a tough one and I try and keep it as simple as my little mind can handle. The Israelis claim there are somewhere around 10,000 rockets currently stored in Gaza. Over 99% of which are the homemade Qassam type which have a range of 3-7 miles. It is obvious to me that from Gaza, nothing of any importance is within that range. What is the point in having that many rockets in Gaza. I understand all the logistics remote firing etc.. but there is no point if there is nothing to hit. I get the fear effect the rockets have on the population but that can often be used internally for control.

 

There may be fewer places to hide rockets in Gaza than in the West Bank but I don't believe that to be true. I can't prove it of course but I do know that the Palestinians in the West Bank do not like the Israelis any more than the ones in Gaza do. In fact, it is the settlements which remain the greatest bone of contention. Again, can't prove it, just a belief. Kinda like the human shield belief which I don't really buy. I can't get past the notion that there is nothing to hit firing from Gaza with rockets which have a range of 3-7 miles. and in fact after firing 14,000 rockets since 2000 only 26 have died matters to whatever conclusion you choose to believe. If you want to use your figure of 60, nothing changes. I do have a list of names, ages and location if you would like. The number of children is roughly the same percentage of the total as is the total of children in the current conflict which have died in Gaza.

 

I am not saying it would be easier to smuggle into Gaza than to the West Bank. But, it doesn't matter once the smuggling is done, you still do not have anything worth using.

 

This is something that I have been talking, writing and thinking about for years. Nobody has offered an opinion that has led me to believe otherwise. Of course I get referred to as a Conspiracy Whacko or an Anti Semite but nothing has made sense regarding these rocket attacks so, until something does at least start to make sense, I remain entrenched in my position as a "Rocket Attack Denier"

 

I acknowledge that the Palestinians aren't the smartest people on the earth but the Palestinians in Gaza are not less smart than those in the West Bank.

 

This crisis will settle down and the next crisis will be a mirror of the last. A bunch of rockets not hitting anything and a bunch of Palestinians killed in air strikes. In the mean time, the Palestinians will be risking life and limb to build and smuggle rockets into an area from which the is nothing to hit.

 

 

 

Various official Israeli sources said a few things regarding the number of rockets and which rockets are around.

I believe the figure you posted is one version of what was said, estimates as to the total number of rockets that

are in Hamas (and other organizations) hands vary. Same goes for the estimate that 99% of the rockets being

short range Qassam's (the "homemade" is a nice touch, but not exactly like someone is making them in-front of

the TV while watching the world cup). One of the things which are actually repeated on Israeli and Palestinian

media is the number of medium and longer range rockets launched and yet in possession of Hamas. There

were even a couple of low grade Hamas UAV's intercepted yesterday.

 

So once again, stating some partial bit of information as solid fact, and jumping straight ahead to the "obvious"

conclusion. The fact that rockets were continually fired to greater distances seems to not register, somehow.

Even withing the arbitrary range chosen, that there is, nothing of importance and nothing to hit, is your own view,

people living within range probably see it differently. The other side of the fence sees it differently as well. For the

Hamas, getting major casualties from rockets launched is a bonus, their own media is full of success stories, direct

hits and whatnot. The true aim of the rockets is not to inflict mass casualties, they are not designed for that. This is

more about morale and PR as far as the Hamas goes.

 

Never said that there are less places to hide launchers in Gaza compared with the West Bank. The difference

on this front would be that Israeli security forces have more access to areas in the West Bank, making raids a

problem. Most of the IDF's actions in the Gaza Strip are conducted from afar, which places certain limitations on

both intelligence and operations.

 

The Palestinians in the West Bank are just as hostile to Israel as the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, probably true.

The difference might lie with the fact that they have more to lose compared with the Palestinian in the Gaza Strip,

and that the leadership holding sway is less militant than the Hamas. Given enough motivation (or lack of carrots)

this too will blow up in Israel's face.

 

Your opinion is based on some false assumptions and facts, coupled with an insistence on getting a simple rational

explanations. The first part is easy enough to correct, the last is a choice.
 

[Pattszero]

This thread is a mirror of what is happening in Gaza and Israel.

 

Neither side will budge. We are right and you are wrong.

 

Ever heard the phrase - "There is no such thing as black and white, just shades of gray"

 

Good man - there's not many peacemakers on this thread.   

[Pattszero]

Grant,

 

>>The two killers are Hamas people, and this was covered in numerous media reports. The third guy arrested later as an accomplice is also Hamas man.

 

..you still don’t get the point do you? 3 untried suspects with political affiliations but no instructions or orders from above somehow force Israel’s hands to bomb more than 200 Gazans to death.

..and you still don’t apply your  same warped logic to the 3 Israeli thugs who burnt the Palestinian boy. Which according to you could make the entire Likud party responsible for their crime.

 

>> The same goes for your assertions regarding the motivations of the killers. Just two guys who got fed up

..I didn’t say that. I said pissed off with Israeli abuse.

..who knows what their motivations actually were. But the clairvoyant Netanyahu and you seem to be able to read their minds.

 

>> mostly to do with economic crisis and losing ground to hardline organizations.

..well they’ve certainly got themselves a bigger economic crisis now haven’t they. Hamas have repeatedly offered an indefinite truce with Israel, and they had been trying to control rogue groups until Israel manufactured this present conflict.

 

>> The windfall for Netanyahu is far from guaranteed.... Public support is tricky

Better read this then  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-eu-pushes-for-ceasefire-but-israelis-back-benjamin-netanyahu-and-want-bombardment-to-continue-9605927.html

....Netanyahu riding a new wave of popularity amongst Israelis baying for more blood.

 

 

Yup - three psychotics - as that is what they would have to be to do what they did - murdered three young boys - and the Israeli response is to send in the big guns.  

 

200 people dead because of an over-reaction to three psychos - 

 

Well done Israel. 

 

Let's see what happens to the Israeli psychos that poured fuel down a seventeen year-old's throat and burnt him alive.    

[Morch]

Grant,

 

>>The two killers are Hamas people, and this was covered in numerous media reports. The third guy arrested later as an accomplice is also Hamas man.

 

..you still don’t get the point do you? 3 untried suspects with political affiliations but no instructions or orders from above somehow force Israel’s hands to bomb more than 200 Gazans to death.

..and you still don’t apply your  same warped logic to the 3 Israeli thugs who burnt the Palestinian boy. Which according to you could make the entire Likud party responsible for their crime.

 

>> The same goes for your assertions regarding the motivations of the killers. Just two guys who got fed up

..I didn’t say that. I said pissed off with Israeli abuse.

..who knows what their motivations actually were. But the clairvoyant Netanyahu and you seem to be able to read their minds.

 

>> mostly to do with economic crisis and losing ground to hardline organizations.

..well they’ve certainly got themselves a bigger economic crisis now haven’t they. Hamas have repeatedly offered an indefinite truce with Israel, and they had been trying to control rogue groups until Israel manufactured this present conflict.

 

>> The windfall for Netanyahu is far from guaranteed.... Public support is tricky

Better read this then  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-eu-pushes-for-ceasefire-but-israelis-back-benjamin-netanyahu-and-want-bombardment-to-continue-9605927.html

....Netanyahu riding a new wave of popularity amongst Israelis baying for more blood.

 

 

Keeping on messing quotes then...alright.

 

Answered the first bit in another posts, not going to bother repeating another time.

 

Second bit (motivations) - Don't see the big difference between "pissed off" and "fed up". I did not say anything about reading their minds, just about their affiliation (Hamas) and constant Hamas leadership incitement to carry out such actions.

 

Third bit - No, it works for Hamas quite well, actually. Not for the people of Gaza, necessarily, but for Hamas and its leadership, for sure. There will be a ceasefire, Hamas will get more concession from Egypt, Israel and the PA related to flow of goods, funds and traffic. This will serve to pacify the local population, while being touted as a victory, at the same time taking the heat off the Hamas from a financial point of view. The Hamas did not offer Israel an indefinite truce, certainly not repeatedly. Even the  current ceasefire negotiations are rough. As for the control exercised by the Hamas over rocket launches by other organizations, this was a product of the last confrontation and was also rapidly eroding prior to the kidnapping.

 

The Independent article is behind the times - Israeli government announced this morning it agrees to the ceasefire. Quite a lot of political and public opinion backfire for Netanyahu, seeing as being weak again (after the same thing in 2012). 

[simple1]

"Israeli government announced this morning it agrees to the ceasefire".

 

Yep, but just read Hamas Military Wing "The Qassam Brigades" has rejected the current proposal.

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/hamas-rejects-egypt-ceasefire-plan-gaza-201471543638311569.html

 

 

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been removed.   You are being reminded again, continued nonsensical posting will result in suspensions.  

[dexterm]

Sorry, Morch I thought I was replying to Grant not you.. the mixup is exactly why I don't like the multiple quotes on the site (in a long thread I find them confusing) and prefer to address individual points. Still finding my way around the site.

 

Fed up and pissed off ...just a vernacular thing, sorry. Where I come from "pissed off" means angry... and "fed up" means bored. I don't think they murdered the teenagers just because they were bored.

 

I hope there is a ceasefire..as Churchill said "Jaw, jaw is better than war, war".

 

Got to rush. Back tomorrow sometime.

 

 

 

[bendywire]

Arabs and Hamas were winning the PR propaganda for years, always playing the civilian casualties card.

This time around they fcked up by openly admitting using civilians as human shields, furthermore openly encouraging and forcing civilians in the line of fire.

Big mistake , huge, which will cost them all

Yes Hamas may well have done this but do Israel really need to kill all those human shields ?

I honestly think this is not going the way of Israel in terms of pr. They are responding in a way that can only increase hatred from within and outside of Palestine.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

OK, so what do you propose? Israel sits under the rocket fire? Or ground invasion?

I certainly don't advocate slaughter of women and children. Ground invasion , let me think. Yes Israel have been invading and stealing land for years. Grow a pair and ask yourself is it humane to kill women and children ?


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Ulysses G.]

The two killers are Hamas people, and this was covered in numerous media reports. The third guy arrested later as an accomplice is also Hamas man.
 
..you still dont get the point do you? 3 untried suspects with political affiliations but no instructions or orders from above somehow force Israels hands to bomb more than 200 Gazans to death.

I get it, but you don't seem to. You don't have the slightest idea what instructions or orders these murderers of teenage boys got from their leaders. However,  we do know that the leadership of both Hamas and Fatah were ecstatic and called the killers "heroes" and the kidnapping a "masterstroke". Edited July 15, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Pralaad]

Arabs and Hamas were winning the PR propaganda for years, always playing the civilian casualties card.

This time around they fcked up by openly admitting using civilians as human shields, furthermore openly encouraging and forcing civilians in the line of fire.

Big mistake , huge, which will cost them all

Yes Hamas may well have done this but do Israel really need to kill all those human shields ?

I honestly think this is not going the way of Israel in terms of pr. They are responding in a way that can only increase hatred from within and outside of Palestine.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

OK, so what do you propose? Israel sits under the rocket fire? Or ground invasion?

I certainly don't advocate slaughter of women and children. Ground invasion , let me think. Yes Israel have been invading and stealing land for years. Grow a pair and ask yourself is it humane to kill women and children ?


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

You ask an excellent question.

Is it humane? is it cowardly to use women and children as shields while hiding out in shelters?

Israel has not stolen a centimeter from Gaza, repeating the same nonsense over and over again will not make it a fact
[attachment=275434:hamas.jpg]

[Ulysses G.]

Grow a pair and ask yourself is it humane to kill women and children ?

Why don't you ask Hamas that? They are the ones who target innocent civilians and use their own women and children as human shields. 

[Ulysses G.]

"Israeli government announced this morning it agrees to the ceasefire".
 
Yep, but just read Hamas Military Wing "The Qassam Brigades" has rejected the current proposal.
 
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/hamas-rejects-egypt-ceasefire-plan-gaza-201471543638311569.html

Israel agrees a peace deal and the Palestinians reject it. Nothing new here. This has been going on for 100 years.

[Pattszero]

 

The two killers are Hamas people, and this was covered in numerous media reports. The third guy arrested later as an accomplice is also Hamas man.
 
..you still dont get the point do you? 3 untried suspects with political affiliations but no instructions or orders from above somehow force Israels hands to bomb more than 200 Gazans to death.

I get it, but you don't seem to. You don't have the slightest idea what instructions or orders these murderers of teenage boys got from their leaders. However,  we do know that the leadership of both Hamas and Fatah were ecstatic and called the killers "heroes" and the kidnapping a "masterstroke".

 

 

Hamas don't represent Palestinian Muslim's any more than the IRA represented Irish Catholics. 

 

Get beyond these nutters that hold their own communities hostage and talk to the silent majority. 

[Ulysses G.]

Huh? Hamas represent the Palestinian Muslims who ELECTED them.

[Jingthing]

The Zionist movement (which started well before 1948) is inclusive of both religious and secular Jews. Israel is the manifestation of the Zionist movement ... a homeland for the Jewish PEOPLE. 

Edited July 15, 2014 by Jingthing

[ggold]

 

 

The two killers are Hamas people, and this was covered in numerous media reports. The third guy arrested later as an accomplice is also Hamas man.
 
..you still dont get the point do you? 3 untried suspects with political affiliations but no instructions or orders from above somehow force Israels hands to bomb more than 200 Gazans to death.

I get it, but you don't seem to. You don't have the slightest idea what instructions or orders these murderers of teenage boys got from their leaders. However,  we do know that the leadership of both Hamas and Fatah were ecstatic and called the killers "heroes" and the kidnapping a "masterstroke".

 

 

Hamas don't represent Palestinian Muslim's any more than the IRA represented Irish Catholics. 

 

Get beyond these nutters that hold their own communities hostage and talk to the silent majority. 

 

 

Thai Visa, can we please have a dislike button PLEASE!

 

[Scott]

 

Thai Visa, can we please have a dislike button PLEASE!

 

Oh, I think that would be very dangerous, especially threads like this.  

 

[Pattszero]

 

 

 

The two killers are Hamas people, and this was covered in numerous media reports. The third guy arrested later as an accomplice is also Hamas man.
 
..you still dont get the point do you? 3 untried suspects with political affiliations but no instructions or orders from above somehow force Israels hands to bomb more than 200 Gazans to death.

I get it, but you don't seem to. You don't have the slightest idea what instructions or orders these murderers of teenage boys got from their leaders. However,  we do know that the leadership of both Hamas and Fatah were ecstatic and called the killers "heroes" and the kidnapping a "masterstroke".

 

 

Hamas don't represent Palestinian Muslim's any more than the IRA represented Irish Catholics. 

 

Get beyond these nutters that hold their own communities hostage and talk to the silent majority. 

 

 

Thai Visa, can we please have a dislike button PLEASE!

 

 

 

Why? - no space in your head that not every single person living in Gaza is a terrorist?    

 

I have shown zero support for Hamas in any of these threads - not a single iota.  I believe they are holding their own people hostage at the point of a gun.  The zealots and psychopaths have the silent majority cowed. 

 

Just the same way they did in NI.   

[ggold]

 

 

 

 

You do not seem to have a much of a grasp on history. The Balfour Declaration was signed in 1917 - well before WW2 - promising the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people. That was not too long before the time that Arabs massacred Jewish families in Hebron and demanded that Jews that had been there for thousands of years leave. The Jews started fighting back, won numerous wars that the Arabs were responsible for, and the rest is history.

 

The Balfour Declaration was addressed to Rothschild, an athiest, this is nothing to do with Judaism, and as DNA has proved, these Eastern Europeans have no connection to Palestine/Israel.

 

 

Walter Rothschild an athiest? where did you get this info?

 

Zionism and the Balfour Declaration

As an active Zionist and close friend of Chaim Weizmann, he worked to formulate the draft declaration for a Jewish homeland in Palestine. On 2 November 1917 he received a letter from the British foreign secretary, Arthur Balfour, addressed to his London home at 148 Piccadilly. In this letter the British government declared its support for the establishment in Palestine of "a national home for the Jewish people". This letter became known as the Balfour Declaration.^[2]

 

 

Wikipedia: "Although born into a nominally Jewish family, in adult life Rothschild declared himself to be an atheist" Israel , the 'Jewish state', was founded by an atheist. It is a land grab, no more and no less.

 

 

Your only problem is that Rothschild did not found the state of Israel. He prepared the way for it. But Ben-Gurion declared the state of Israel on the 14th May 1948. That was when the state was founded.   

 

[ggold]

 

 

 

 

I get it, but you don't seem to. You don't have the slightest idea what instructions or orders these murderers of teenage boys got from their leaders. However,  we do know that the leadership of both Hamas and Fatah were ecstatic and called the killers "heroes" and the kidnapping a "masterstroke".

 

 

Hamas don't represent Palestinian Muslim's any more than the IRA represented Irish Catholics. 

 

Get beyond these nutters that hold their own communities hostage and talk to the silent majority. 

 

 

Thai Visa, can we please have a dislike button PLEASE!

 

 

 

Why? - no space in your head that not every single person living in Gaza is a terrorist?    

 

I have shown zero support for Hamas in any of these threads - not a single iota.  I believe they are holding their own people hostage at the point of a gun.  The zealots and psychopaths have the silent majority cowed. 

 

Just the same way they did in NI.   

 

 

That doesn't excuse the statement that Hamas do not represent Gazan Palestinians. About the only way that might be true is what Hamas are putting the civilian population through these last few days.

 

I get the feeling they may not be around much longer, not because of what Israel is doing (defending themselves) but because of what is happening within Gaza politics. But they were voted in by the civilian population so Politically they represent them. They even kicked out the PA in a battle between the PA and Hamas.   

 

[ggold]

 

 

Thai Visa, can we please have a dislike button PLEASE!

 

Oh, I think that would be very dangerous, especially threads like this.