MH17: Malaysia Airlines Plane Shot Down Near Ukraine Border

[JesseFrank]

If it is indeed Russia that shot the plane down, then every country in the world needs to immediately apprehend all Russian citizens that are in their country pending further investigation.

Shooting down a civilian aircraft is tantamount to declaration of war and every citizen of a country that declares war on a peaceful nation is in breach of every convention since the Geneva convention.

every Russian is no more responisble for what their government does than I am for what the American government does. if I was, i should have been shot already!

Wondered what they have been waiting for

[Asiantravel]

Putin may have been the real target. Apparently Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft – 15:44 Moscow time

Edited July 18, 2014 by Asiantravel

[bdenner]

Any airline that flies over that area do not take the huge risk into account. Pro Russian rebels have been shooting airplanes over that area for months. Almost every week Ukrainian military or freight planes were shot down. What do they expect from flying over that area? These airlines are so clueless that makes me so angry!

Might be time to get a grip on that anger - all the reports I've seen indicate that the plane was flying through a widely accepted 'highway' used by dozens of other airlines : there was absolutely no provocation at all. The international carriers transport hundreds of thousands of people all over the world every day without incident - 298 people lose their lives in a deliberate act of mindless killing and your angry with the airlines ? Surely Putin and his little crusade are the root cause of this, not pilots simply doing their jobs on the routes assigned to them.

Well said, until this morning that route was declared safe.

'Declared safe'

Malaysia Airlines has released a statement in which it says MH17's usual flight route was "earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organisation."

"International Air Transportation Association has stated that the airspace the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions," the statement said.

The airline will send a team to Ukraine to help with the investigation.

Another plane will also be made available to grieving relatives wanting to visit the crash site, an official said.

ABC/Wires

Edit, full link!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-18/malaysians-react-with-shock-and-grief-to-mh17/5606648

Edited July 18, 2014 by bdenner

[MrWorldwide]

If it is indeed Russia that shot the plane down, then every country in the world needs to immediately apprehend all Russian citizens that are in their country pending further investigation.

Shooting down a civilian aircraft is tantamount to declaration of war and every citizen of a country that declares war on a peaceful nation is in breach of every convention since the Geneva convention.

every Russian is no more responisble for what their government does than I am for what the American government does. if I was, i should have been shot already!

It's OT and I'm not sure that rant even deserved a response, but Putin apparently has a high approval rating in Russia and some of your countrymen did inflict Bush and Cheney on the rest of the world. IMO, they should have been hung alongside Saddam, but that's a topic for another thread. I expect that there are many people in Russia who take no joy in the knowledge that a civilian airliner has been shot down, regardless of their stance on Ukraine. Not sure what percentage of Russians have never flown, but I expect that millions have - no civilian gets on a plane expecting it to be shot at, even post 9/11.

[skippybangkok]

......I suggest that posters stop the blame game until the investigations have been carried out.

Not sure what more evidence is needed. i.e. QANTAS was routing its aircraft north and south of Ukraine to be safe. Even if air traffic control is not worried, anyone who is worried about safety would not route a passenger aircraft close to conflict zones.

I dont blame the SAM guys, its clearly on the Flight Planning in KUL, and the Captain for agreeing with such a stupid route.

[JesseFrank]

Putin may have been the real target. Apparently Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft – 15:44 Moscow time

So you claim that pro Russian forces targeted Putins plane ?

[MJCM]

An unsubstantiated post has been removed from view. Along with an associated reply. If you have additional information, please post a link substantiating your claim. Reliable websites only, please.

It looks like that an air controller posted that message.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/other-asian-australian-south-pacific-airlines/1595246-breaking-malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-ukraine-july-2014-a-38.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23214629-post556.html

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

[Chicog]

I dont blame the SAM guys, its clearly on the Flight Planning in KUL, and the Captain for agreeing with such a stupid route.

I've read some dumb shit on TV, but that's pushing for a gold medal.

[Scott]

Some inflammatory posts and replies have been removed. Please exercise care in your posts. It is an emotional topic, but there is simply not enough information available at this time.

Specifically, do not use inflammatory language. Your post will be deleted.

[slipperylobster]

If it is indeed Russia that shot the plane down, then every country in the world needs to immediately apprehend all Russian citizens that are in their country pending further investigation.

Shooting down a civilian aircraft is tantamount to declaration of war and every citizen of a country that declares war on a peaceful nation is in breach of every convention since the Geneva convention.

every Russian is no more responisble for what their government does than I am for what the American government does. if I was, i should have been shot already!

some of your countrymen did inflict Bush and Cheney on the rest of the world. IMO, they should have been hung alongside Saddam

Another misleading, uninformed, irrelevant reference to how somehow this sad incident has anything whatsoever to do with Bush or Cheney. or Saddam for that matter!

Please do not live in the past...history is full of transgressions...by everyone.

Edited July 18, 2014 by slipperylobster

[webfact]

US 'horrified' by Ukraine plane crash: Kerry

WASHINGTON - US Secretary of State John Kerry called Thursday for a "credible" international investigation into the apparent downing of a Malaysian airliner over rebel-held eastern Ukraine, expressing horror at the incident.

"We are horrified by the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17," Kerry said in a statement. "The United States government remains prepared to assist with a credible, international investigation any way we can, and we will continue to be in touch with all relevant partners as we seek the facts of what happened today."
AFP

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/US-horrified-by-Ukraine-plane-crash-Kerry-30238828.html

-- The Nation 2014-07-18

[craigt3365]

An unsubstantiated post has been removed from view. Along with an associated reply. If you have additional information, please post a link substantiating your claim. Reliable websites only, please.

It looks like that an air controller posted that message.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/other-asian-australian-south-pacific-airlines/1595246-breaking-malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-ukraine-july-2014-a-38.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23214629-post556.html

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

Appreciate the links, but still not a reliable news source. The person who posted that has been accused of posts in the past of a political nature.

[Nutavin]

RIP to the victims

[anon467367354]

I had no idea you could shoot down a plane that was flying at 33,000 feet and if you did,

if it tumbled out of the sky, wouldn't it totally break apart?

if it tried to land, meaning the plane was crippled, was there no smoke?

probably hit from above in my opinion, something that just totally shut it down.

[oneday]

It comes down to ONE person who says push the button and kill x number of people. Who knows what training this person had or what indications he has available to him to distinguish a passenger airliner from an enemy plane...so I say...Why would Malaysia Airlines take the chance to fly over any part of any country where there is conflict where either side has missiles like this. There are too many immature children out there with horribly advanced weapons like this. I would plan a different route to my destination if I were MAS. And of course the ultimate responsibility falls on the country or rebel group that did this. I hope you have many sleepless nights.

295 people killed by one brainless idiot, incredibly tragic.

[Don Mega]

I had no idea you could shoot down a plane that was flying at 33,000 feet and if you did,

if it tumbled out of the sky, wouldn't it totally break apart?

if it tried to land, meaning the plane was crippled, was there no smoke?

probably hit from above in my opinion, something that just totally shut it down.

Have you seen any pics of the debris ?

[Tywais]

Flightradar24.com track.

Full flight history here

(Please note that the red dotted line is the straight line from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur and not the actual route)

[webfact]

MH17: some possible scenarios... none end well
Daniel Flitton

MELBOURCE: -- The rebels are suspect Number 1. But there are other scenarios in the shooting down of Malaysia Airline Flight 17 above eastern Ukraine that will fuel conspiracies in the conflict. None end well.

Hardliners
Hardline rebels might be trying to force Russian leader Vladimir Putin’s hand. The rebels recently declared the “Manifesto of Novorossiya”, covering the breakaway region of south-east Ukraine but got little public backing from Moscow. The Kremlin was seen to have cooled on the Ukraine conflict in the face of Western economic sanctions. Perversely, this attack could bolster Russian support for the rebels if only to rein them in tighter. But it would be a huge gamble - and that alone seems to suggest it is improbable.

Payback
The Ukraine government has suffered humiliating losses. Rebels shot down a Ukraine military transport last month, killing more than 40 soldiers and the government has promised revenge. The flight to Malaysia might have been mistaken for a Russian aircraft. There is tragic precedent. A US navy ship in the Persian Gulf in 1988 claimed to have mistook Iran Air Flight 655 for a fighter jet and shot it down. The former Soviet Union also destroyed Korean Air Lines Flight 007 in 1983 after the jet was said to have wandered into restricted airspace. But again, the cost of the cover-up to Ukraine in terms of reputation and support makes this scenario unlikely.

Provocation
Could Russia itself have deliberately precipitated a crisis? The takeover of Crimea in March was preceded by a series of underhand actions, where Russian commandos posed as Ukraine dissidents and seized control of key military installations. Putin is a ruthless character, no doubt, but it is one thing to send agent provocateurs across the border in a neighbourhood quarrel, quite another to deliberately target a commercial airliner with citizens from around the world. Chalk this up as impossible.

Full story: http://www.theage.com.au/world/mh17-some-possible-scenarios-none-end-well-20140718-zudt0.html


-- The Age 2014-07-18

[Loptr]

23 Americans onboard, which gives the US a reason to ramp up... The fat is in the fire now... May all 295 souls RIP...

You seriously think the US will ramp anything up against Russia apart from sanctions that really the Russians couldn't give a toss about?

The US can't really hurt Russia, they are very self sufficient, as forget any military conflict. The US people will be out on the streets in force to prevent it... if anything out of pure fear.

The USmay have enough military fire-power to destroy the whole planet 50 times over, but the Russians have the military power to destroy the world 20 times over..... So what's the point?

Just in case you were going to quote the US military capability..... lol

Obama had just implemented new sanctions on Russia just yesterday and they are now talking of more... If you think that doesn't matter, check the Ruble today and the Russian markets... Not that I support the US in any way in Ukraine considering they are the ones that stirred the pot to begin with... You are right that Obama hasn't the backbone to do anything other than use his pen... He's already backed himself and the EU into a corner with respect to Russian gas... The downing of this plane only complicates thing more, so go ahead and laugh...

[Loptr]

Very clearly stupidity. Pink line (attached) is the shortest route possible between Amsterdam and Kuala Lumpur. Shot down just south of it ....... Who flies over a crisis zone with low level army grunts armed with air to ground missiles ? must save fuel, must save fuel, must save fuel. .....

Absolutely preventable. MAS management obviously has a "tidak apa" attitude ( she'll be right )

RIP

Screenshot 2014-07-17 23.29.05.png

Many airlines flying that route would and were. Other airlines were on that route. The Ulraine authorities only restriction was stay above FL310.

It appears that MH-17 was not on the same route or altitude of the previous 10 flights along this corridor...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/was-flight-mh-17-diverted-over-restricted-airspace

[trainman34014]

The leader of the Pro- Russian rebels in the area has come forward and said he ordered the destruction of the plane thinking it was a Ukranian Miltary aircraft.

This is what happens when the madman Putin gives high tech weaponry to people who have no idea how to use it properly. This man and his cohorts want to drag back Russia to the cold war days.

[JacChang]

Kinda busy, will read the article more later tonight.

But for quick thoughts, did MH lose contact with the airplane, and if so, the reason they got shot down was to prevent a terrorist attack? Or? Will edit later tonight.

[wabothai]

I feel so sorry for all families who have to suffer.

I feel rhe guilty one, if found, deserves death penalty.

I feel it is unbelievable that civilian planes fly over war zones.

[webfact]

At least 154 Dutch citizens killed in Ukraine air disaster

AMSTERDAM, July 18 (Xinhua) -- At least 154 Dutch citizens have been killed in the Malayssian passenger crash in the eastern part of Ukraine on Thursday, the airlines European head said.

Huib Gorte said that the victims include 154 Dutch passengers, 27 Australians, 23 Malaysians, 11 Indonesians, 6 Britons, 4 Germans, 4 Belgians, 3 Philippines, 1 Canadian and 47 of yet unknown identities.

The Malaysia Airlines MH17 passenger plane crashed Thursday in Ukraine near the Russian border, with all the 280 passengers and 15 crew members on board reportedly having been killed.

All 15 crew members are Malaysians.

Jos Nijhuis, president and CEO of the Schiphol Airport Group, said: "We sympathize with the families who have been affected. We will do everything in our power to accommodate and support them as well as possible and support."

The Malaysian ambassador in the Netherlands, Fauziah Mohamad Taib, also was present at the press conference.

"My condolences are especially to the Dutch citizens and also to the other nationalities," she said. "The embassy will be open 24 hours, in case there are questions that you might want to ask."

During the press conference all relatives of the victims were promised help. Gorter said the Malaysia Airlines would try make a plane available for a flight to Kiev.

Source: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2014-07/18/c_126767023.htm

-- Xinhua 2014-07-18

[Choonpon]

Ill fated airline:(

[submaniac]

I dont blame the SAM guys, its clearly on the Flight Planning in KUL, and the Captain for agreeing with such a stupid route.

I've read some dumb shit on TV, but that's pushing for a gold medal.

Yes it's up to the "SAM guys" to determine what the target actually is before shooting it. And no, the plane was not in a no fly zone. The plane deviated course about 200 miles from its planned flight path due to weather, but it was still within an area authorized for civilian flight.

[webfact]

Russian rebels are ‘likely responsible’ for shooting down Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 over the Ukraine

UKRAINIAN security services claim to have intercepted two phone conversations in which pro-Russian separatists discuss having just shot down a civilian plane.

A transcript of the phone intercept was made shortly after MH17 was shot down.

The participants are reportedly Russian military intelligence officer Igor Bezler, his superior in Russian intelligence Colonel Vasily Geranin, a rebel fighter going by the name ‘Major’ and another comrade called ‘Greek’.

This how their discussion ran:
Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo.
Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?
IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. It’s smoking.
VG: How many minutes ago?
IB: About 30 minutes ago.

Full story: http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/russian-rebels-are-likely-responsible-for-shooting-down-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-over-the-ukraine/story-fnh81p7g-1226992928465


-- News.com.au 2014-07-18

[slipperylobster]

23 Americans onboard, which gives the US a reason to ramp up... The fat is in the fire now... May all 295 souls RIP...

You seriously think the US will ramp anything up against Russia apart from sanctions that really the Russians couldn't give a toss about?

The US can't really hurt Russia, they are very self sufficient, as forget any military conflict. The US people will be out on the streets in force to prevent it... if anything out of pure fear.

The USmay have enough military fire-power to destroy the whole planet 50 times over, but the Russians have the military power to destroy the world 20 times over..... So what's the point?

Just in case you were going to quote the US military capability..... lol

Obama had just implemented new sanctions on Russia just yesterday and they are now talking of more... If you think that doesn't matter, check the Ruble today and the Russian markets... Not that I support the US in any way in Ukraine considering they are the ones that stirred the pot to begin with... You are right that Obama hasn't the backbone to do anything other than use his pen... He's already backed himself and the EU into a corner with respect to Russian gas... The downing of this plane only complicates thing more, so go ahead and laugh...

True, sanctions have cooled their heels.

I find lostsoul's post incredibly insulting, and infantile. Save your laughter for your own incredulous, off topic ramblings that go on in your own mind.

[NeverSure]

154 Dutch with many more family and friends affected. It is terrible. RIP and my condolences to those affected.

[HUAHIN62]

This is a zone that many of we Europeans fly through on our way to Asia - there but for the grace of ----

I only hope that those that died were gone in an instant - tragic.

Yes you are correct. This flight however deviated +- 160 km north of its normal route and entered restricted airspace. Here's a link to an interesting article that shows previous flightpaths compare to the one yesterday. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/was-flight-mh-17-diverted-over-restricted-airspace

RIP fellow travellers.