Denied entry at Krabi airport...

[chrisinth]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Multiply this by hundreds of times on International flights landing at Swampy... coming soon. And 99% of those denied will not have a second passport. Fireworks ... when being totally denied after flying 16,000 kilometers. !!!!

Not really. I doubt very much that anyone flying 16k would come without a visa, qualify for a visa on arrival, or for a 30-day entry. People with multiple consecutive entry stamps are people living/working in thailand without proper documentation/visas and doing hops to the borders or nearby countries. They don't fly 32,000 kilometers to enter Thailand on another 30-day stamp. Nice try at scaremongering however.

If the op's story is real, and that's a very big if, then Thai immigration are doing the right thing by their lights. Someone refused entry should either go to the nearest Thai embassy on consulate and apply for the appropriate visa or return to their country of origin and do the same. With the proper visa, they should have no problem entering The Kingdom.

Nonsense.. Simply because you doubt it, doesn't mean that 100s probably 1000s a day don't fly into Thailand, long haul, with more than 3 recent visa exempt stamps expecting another..

I can count perhaps 10 offshore workers in my mates alone who do this exact thing every month.. Another who works around Asia who is through the airport maybe once a week or twice a month.. He has to get a new passport every year or so just for the accumulation of 30 day stamps.

I would imagine offshore workers who want to spend their down-time in Thailand as genuine tourists would have no trouble entering even with multiple 30-day entry stamps, separated by 4-6 weeks, in their passports. This would be especially true if they had outbound tickets to and hotel bookings to show if challenged. Those who have condos, cars, wives, and children, etc. and are actually living in Thailand may have to actually obtain the appropriate visa. We will just have to wait and see how it all gets sorted out. However, I would expect that just showing the ownership papers for a condo/car and/or a bank book with a decent balance would be enough to get an offshore worker in, no matter his circumstances.

It's been said many times, the purpose of the crackdown is to prevent people for working illegally in Thailand. I don't think there is any push to give free-spending offshore workers the boot and prevent them from spending their loot in Thailand.

I would be a bit cautious with the advice of showing evidence of having wives, owning condos, etc when coming in on a visa exemption. I understand that the main purpose of this drive is against people working illegally, but wording about visitors entering the country using the correct visas was also in the initial statements.

I don't think however that this will affect rotation workers, that have their rotations on 30 days or less. The people it will affect are the workers who have rotations of 37 days or more and who are not married.

IMHO

[xray]

As a US citizen, I am never stamped out of or into the US. However, there have been a number of times that I had to find the stamp-out of the previous country before Immigration would stamp me into the country I had just arrived at. Most immigration officers are good at finding the last stamp-out, but my passport has had so many pages added to it, with so many stamps, that there have been times when I had to find the stamp-out for them...that is the only reason I know that it is looked for, at least by some.

In what countries?

I have been a regular traveller for 25+ years all over the world having lived in a number of countries and worked/travelled to many more. I've never had it happen, so I'm interested to know where

Thailand wanting to see the exit stamp from India at BKK. Qatar wanting to see the exit stamp from Egypt. China, Kunming wanting to see the exit stamp from Thailand. It doesn't happen often to me at airports, but my impression at land borders is that they always (or nearly so) want to see the exit stamp. The situation with China is possibly a bit different for US citizens, because of the high visa cost for a US citizen. It is reciprocal between those two countries. The Chinese don't want US citizens who happen to hold dual citizenship, switching passports while traveling in order to avoid the high visa fee. That is just a guess on my part, as I only have one passport and one citizenship. I read something about that, with an Israeli who tried to switch passports (switch away from his US passport) and was denied.

Switching a passport in mid flight is one thing, doing it right in front of the IO is another. I am still a bit surprised that our OP was able to do it, in the current situation.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/aviation_polls/read.main/217864/

There are some interesting examples of passport switching on this website. For some it seems to be routine and problem free. There also seems to be situations where you could be questioned and even have a problem in switching, and maybe that is what happened to me on occasion of being asked for exit stamps. It seems it could also depend on which countries you are traveling between. I think the IO in Qatar just wanted to jerk me around, and he as much told me that, saying that Muslims are always hassled at airports in the West, or something to that effect. I have less doubt about the situation at land borders, they want to see an exit stamp there, or you should at least expect them to want to see one.

[tyler214]

"So when I politely asked 'If I use this passport may I enter?' they quickly flipped through it and said 'Yes, no problem.'"

I'm surprised they let you use the other passport, if your KL stamp-out was in the denied passport. The passport you were stamped-in to Thailand with had no originating flight stamp-out from KL, is that right?

Immigration at airports never check for a departure stamps from another country when you enter because it is not required. Also many countries do not stamp you out.

.

They do in Phenom Phen airport as I tried to enter on my American passport as I departed Thailand on my Canadian passport. The visa guy at the counter at the airport told me dont make a problem for yourself as he wanted to see the departure stamp from where I was coming from and said that I had to use that passport to get a Cambodian entry visa........Go figure?

[fasteddie]

Multiply this by hundreds of times on International flights landing at Swampy... coming soon. And 99% of those denied will not have a second passport. Fireworks ... when being totally denied after flying 16,000 kilometers. !!!!

Not really. I doubt very much that anyone flying 16k would come without a visa, qualify for a visa on arrival, or for a 30-day entry. People with multiple consecutive entry stamps are people living/working in thailand without proper documentation/visas and doing hops to the borders or nearby countries. They don't fly 32,000 kilometers to enter Thailand on another 30-day stamp. Nice try at scaremongering however.

If the op's story is real, and that's a very big if, then Thai immigration are doing the right thing by their lights. Someone refused entry should either go to the nearest Thai embassy on consulate and apply for the appropriate visa or return to their country of origin and do the same. With the proper visa, they should have no problem entering The Kingdom.

What about all the people being refused at the Malaysian border with visas from KL?

[simon43]

I was under the impression (from numerous previous posts in this forum), that switching passports was the correct way to enter Thailand for those who hold dual nationality, Thai and another nationality.

You enter and leave Thailand on your Thai passport, you enter and leave your 'home' country on your other passport, (all done to minimize visa requirements, overstay etc).

So why is it an issue? So long as you can show your exit visa stamp to immigration from your other passport, what's the problem?

[xray]

I was under the impression (from numerous previous posts in this forum), that switching passports was the correct way to enter Thailand for those who hold dual nationality, Thai and another nationality.

You enter and leave Thailand on your Thai passport, you enter and leave your 'home' country on your other passport, (all done to minimize visa requirements, overstay etc).

So why is it an issue? So long as you can show your exit visa stamp to immigration from your other passport, what's the problem?

That makes sense to me. The website I linked to earlier, showing a discussion on the subject, seems to indicate that using two passports works best when you are flying between the two countries that you hold citizenship (and passports) for. But the OP of this thread is not a Thai citizen and not using a Thai passport. I found a couple of other sites today, where people were doing this. My take on it is that you have to know the laws of the countries involved and there exists the possibility of getting into trouble, especially with more complicated scenarios like those I have been reading about - married couple of two different nationalities, traveling with their child between countries of the two respective nationalities, but one country doesn't recognize the citizenship of the child, etc.. It was a challenge for me to try and follow what they were trying to do and the warnings being received from other posters on the thread...that one involved the UK and Azerbaijan, found with google:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/europe/1360546-use-1-passport-leave-1-country-another-enter-destination.html

Edited July 20, 2014 by xray

[MrWorldwide]

I was under the impression (from numerous previous posts in this forum), that switching passports was the correct way to enter Thailand for those who hold dual nationality, Thai and another nationality.

You enter and leave Thailand on your Thai passport, you enter and leave your 'home' country on your other passport, (all done to minimize visa requirements, overstay etc).

So why is it an issue? So long as you can show your exit visa stamp to immigration from your other passport, what's the problem?

Absolutely nothing, as long as:

- both passports are checked at source and destination airports

- the passenger is registered as a dual national on the manifest

Given the ease with which known criminals like Sharky move between Australia and Thailand, I dont have a whole lot of faith in the system. Tim was born in NZ but spent much of his 'gangsta' life in Australia before deciding Pattaya was the best place to get cheap steroids - must be handy to have two passports.

[p_brownstone]

The attitude of the Immigration Officer in the op's case really makes no sense at all.

It's not the physical presence of several back-to-back Visa Exempt entries in the Passport which is the reason to deny entry, it's what they represent or at least imply - that the Passport Holder is not really a Tourist.

Simply presenting another Passport should in no way negate that perception.

I think the OP was very lucky.

Patrick

[larsjohnsson]

Multiply this by hundreds of times on International flights landing at Swampy... coming soon. And 99% of those denied will not have a second passport. Fireworks ... when being totally denied after flying 16,000 kilometers. !!!!

The people coming on long flights from Europe an N America will not have 3 back to back visa exemptions just before they arrive.

[OMGImInPattaya]

Multiply this by hundreds of times on International flights landing at Swampy... coming soon. And 99% of those denied will not have a second passport. Fireworks ... when being totally denied after flying 16,000 kilometers. !!!!

The people coming on long flights from Europe an N America will not have 3 back to back visa exemptions just before they arrive.

Yes, as I said elsewhere, they'll just be border hoppers from Vientiene, Phnom Penh, or Penang. Edited July 20, 2014 by OMGImInPattaya

[NanLaew]

The attitude of the Immigration Officer in the op's case really makes no sense at all.

It's not the physical presence of several back-to-back Visa Exempt entries in the Passport which is the reason to deny entry, it's what they represent or at least imply - that the Passport Holder is not really a Tourist.

Simply presenting another Passport should in no way negate that perception.

I think the OP was very lucky.

Patrick

Yes it was rather an arbitrary decision and others have postulated all quite valid and varied theories on why the unacceptable back-to-backer suddenly became acceptable tourist.

The OP 'dodged the bullet' so it would be interesting to see how he plans to maintain his current acceptable immigration status. Will he chose to max out extensions and visa-runs on the new passport while applying for an overseas renewal of the 'unacceptable' passport (which is the path of least resistance)? Or, based on his stated age, will he go home and apply for the retirement visa that he is eminently qualified for (but does involve a bit of work and having money)?

Or move to Cambodia?

Edited July 20, 2014 by NanLaew

[NanLaew]

...

My two German friends were denied re-entry at a Thai/Malaysian Border Checkpoint a week ago today. They innocently had used an Exemption on arrival and 3 more ins and outs - seeing this as the norm. They had a flight booked out of Thailand on July 29 - booked in June.. had the papers in their pockets. They mentioned it but the IO would not even look at them. One would think that booked tickets out of Thailand would hold some sway - after all it was only 17 days in the future. ...

Did they get back in after getting their visas?

[paulsr]

Okay... I have more free time today, and since some people seem to be questioning my sanity, I'll tell y'all the whole story.

I am well aware, as someone pointed out, that I dodged a bullet. I walked out of Krabi airport with a big grin on my face, while at the same time trying to slow my heart rate!

But the thing is, I don't see what I could have done differently.

I've lived for the past 26 years in Malaysia. A few years ago I met some nice people in Thailand who I visited often, and eventually I decided I'd rather live in Thailand than Malaysia.

40 years ago I would have packed a suitcase and left. Now, at 69, I have a lot of possessions, furniture, etc., that if I was able, I wanted to keep. And I'm much more picky about where I want to live.

So, over the past year or so, I've been making short trips, to choose an area, and longer trips to find a house to rent, sign an agreement, etc., open a bank account and all the things I would need to live here comfortably.

So, I had valid reasons to be in both places. In Malaysia I own a company which I've had to make dormant so that I don't look like I'm working. I've had meetings with Accountant and Company Scy, and I've made trips to dispose of cars and the like. Not to mention the fact I have friends and relatives there who I like to visit.

I had originally planned to apply for a 1yr visa based on retirement at the Embassy in KL. But ppl on TV told me I was crazy and that it would be much easier to do in Thailand.

But think about it. I can't apply until I've had THB800k in an account for 60 days. And if I had some kind of visa other than the 30day tourist chop, how could I have gone back to M'sia to do all the things mentioned above?

So, everything is now done. All my stuff is in Thailand, I don't need to leave for the foreseeable future, and I'm ready to get the 1yr visa. (Or 90 days and then 1yr - whatever.) As I told the Immigration guy - I just need to come in one more time.

Bu the whole moral of my story is that they don't care. They don't listen. They don't want to know. Three chops and yr out.

Hope this clears up a few things.

[Tony M]

A lot of people are asking what constitutes an "out-in", and are hoping for some definition. I don't think you will get a definition, as that is something that can be easily abused. As a comparison, the guidance to the UK immigration rules regarding visitors says this :

Visitors cannot live in the UK on a continuous basis even if this is punctuated by short absences from the UK to avoid overstaying.

There is no specific limit on the number of visits an individual can make to the UK, such as a definitive rule which states that a visitor can only remain in the UK for ‘6 months in 12 month period’ rule. But visitors must not be living in the UK for extended periods because of frequent or successive visits. For example:

where an individual spends five or six months in the UK during a visit and returns after a short break in their home country for a further five or six months, or if they are living in the UK for successive short periods and breaking this by leaving for a couple of days, for example, someone living in the UK during the week and breaking this by leaving the UK at the weekends.

This could amount to genuine residence. However this is not a hard and fast rule and the circumstances of each case needs to be considered on an individual basis.

Maybe Thai Immigration are using similar guidelines, who knows. As I said above, I doubt if Thai Immigration will commit themselves to a definitive period for a genuine visitor to remain outside of Thailand before returning again as a "visitor".

[Pattaya46]

So the official announcement that they would only start denying entry from 12 August at Airports was rubbish then ?

Unbelievable they can't even get the start date right

Read the article correctly. The starting date at borders was "immediate".

The 12 August date is for application of these rules at International Airports too.

[Sena Dave]

Yes agreed , so how come the OP was very nearly denied entry at an Airport yesterday, 19th of July. If he hadn't had the second passport he would have been denied entry for his 3 in/out stamps. So its happened before the 12th hasn't it ?

[MrWorldwide]

The other point I would make about the passport switching will be obvious to anyone who has even a vague interest in computerised systems and the war on terror - regardless of how poorly or otherwise both may have been implemented at Thailand's international airports. If I was designing checks and balances, one of the things I would insist on is knowing that everyone who got on an international flight to Bangkok got off that flight and went through Immigration - passengers and crew alike. Is it inconceivable that there might be two Brits with the same name on a given flight, but one magically becomes a Kiwi with a different passport number when he gets off the plane ? There's a reason we're all given numbers from the cradle to the grave - facial recognition software and data matching be damned

Not sure if they've fixed it since AA moved to DM but we were routinely herded off planes out on the tarmac and left to our own devices on the way back into the terminal - the odd disinterested Thai standing around witches hats where there was a possibility of being run over by transport vehicles. I'm not privy to the security procedures at Swampy, but it would be handy to know that passengers actually made it to the Immigration queues - call me old-fashioned, but that seems like a good start to most stays in LOS.

For those who feel I'm clutching at straws, you only need to look back to MH370 and the backpedalling by the Malaysians when it became apparent that there were inconsistencies in the passenger manifest. This is the kind of incompetence that you just cant have in an airport as big as Swampy without drawing unwanted international attention to your Immigration controls. I'm not suggesting that anyone here is promoting fraud or identity theft - simply that the idea of someone being waved through on a nice, clean passport when it's not the same 'ID' they used to board the plane strikes me as a potential hole in the security at Krabi airport. Clearly, it worked for the OP and in this instance he had already presented his original passport - that isnt what others have proposed further into the thread.

Possible passenger involvement[edit]

Two men identified on the passenger manifest, an Austrian and an Italian, had reported their passports stolen in 2012 and 2013, respectively.^[49][256] Interpol stated that both passports were listed on its database of lost and stolen passports, and that no check had been made against its database.^[257][258] Malaysia's Home Minister, Ahmad Zahid Hamidi, criticised his country's immigration officials for failing to stop the passengers travelling on the stolen European passports.^[258] The two one-way tickets purchased for the holders of the stolen passports were booked through China Southern Airlines.^[259] It was reported that an Iranian had ordered the cheapest tickets to Europe via telephone in Bangkok, Thailand. The tickets were paid for in cash.^[260][261] The two passengers were later identified as Iranian men, one aged 19 and the other 29, who had entered Malaysia on 28 February using valid Iranian passports. The head of Interpol said the organisation was "inclined to conclude that it was not a terrorist incident".^[210] The two men were believed to be asylum seekers.^[262][263]

[Ned]

You'd think that the airlines are going to have to be the ones who decide whether they will fly you to Thailand ....or not.

Who's going to be responsible for flying out those refused entry at Thai airports?

[NanLaew]

The UK Immigration definitions are suitably vague for a reason. I they stated 'x' amount of days in 'y' period, then people would just manipulate it to be 'x-1' days in that definitive period... and then do it repeatedly and stay 'within specification'. When you throw in the caveat, "each case needs to be considered on an individual basis," then they keep the decision completely discretionary.

Now, if anyone suggests this is what Thailand plans on doing, they could be right. Or they could subscribe to the more common mantra herein that they couldn't find their own &lt;deleted&gt; with two hands and a flashlight, which could be closer to the thruth. However, the fact is that Thai Immigration, in common with many other countries, imparts that first discretionary level of consideration on the first Immigration person that you meet.

Therefore it appears the best option any visitor, short or long term, could take is to fully avail themselves of the Thai visa that best suits their circumstances and not the option that best serves their bank book.

[Suradit69]

it will be interesting if any other people with just basic back to back 30 days has an issue. Say just a casual tourist that ended up with a few more months of time off than expected.

Yes, I think if they continue to apply the rule so rigidly it will eventually hurt tourism.

They asked me no questions. They had no interest in why I wanted to enter Thailand, whether I had a hotel reservation, onward or return tickets, money, nothing. You have three chops, you can't come back. End of story.

"Yes, I think if they continue to apply the rule so rigidly it will eventually hurt tourism. "

Rigidly expecting tourists to get proper tourist visas for longer stays is such a revolutionary position for them to take?

Note, three consecutive visas, not 100, not 20, just three. And each one had a gap of a few days spent in KL.

Why did the O/P do three consecutive visits to KL for a couple of days with the obvious intention of turning around and coming back to Thailand? He ought to have obtained a tourist visa if it was his original plan to stay in Thailand this long and if there was a change of plans after his original entry he could still have flown out and applied for a tourist visa to cover the balance of his stay.

Obviously the immigrations officer saw this as an example of someone abusing the visa exempt entry facility, but was flexible enough to allow an additional entry using a different passport. Sounds like s/he was doing his/her job both in terms of the spirit & in the letter of the instructions given.

And it sounds as though Immigrations are not trying to discourage tourists, just expecting that they follow the rules rather than abuse them.

Longer visa exemption extensions begin August 29, 2014

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/744440-longer-visa-exemption-extensions-begin-august-29-2014/?utm_source=newsletter-20140720-1523&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news

Presumably after a visa-exempt entry and an extension, "tourists" will not be permitted to keep repeating this procedure.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Suradit69

[MrWorldwide]

You'd think that the airlines are going to have to be the ones who decide whether they will fly you to Thailand ....or not.

Who's going to be responsible for flying out those refused entry at Thai airports?

Extensively covered here over the last week, and the answer is that the airline who flew you to Thailand cops a fine and is responsible for organising your flight out of Thailand - if you dont have a return ticket they will bill you accordingly.

[tinhead]

Untrue - I did a recent 1 day trip to the US and may have another coming soon.

Multiply this by hundreds of times on International flights landing at Swampy... coming soon. And 99% of those denied will not have a second passport. Fireworks ... when being totally denied after flying 16,000 kilometers. !!!!

Somebody flying 16,000 kilometers would not have back to back to exempt entries that are just a few day apart.

[belg]

ah those pesky double nationalities, where can you buy one

as this pesky country, even my wife & kids are thai, i will never, nor any other farang, will ever get thai nationality, only PR if you pay the big ticket

[MrWorldwide]

ah those pesky double nationalities, where can you buy one

as this pesky country, even my wife & kids are thai, i will never, nor any other farang, will ever get thai nationality, only PR if you pay the big ticket

Reary ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Heinecke

Heinecke naturalized as a Thai citizen in 1991, renouncing United States citizenship in the process

Edit: Under the 1992 Nationality Act, naturalisation as a Thai citizen requires five years of residence in Thailand, as well as proof of a certain minimum income and renunciation of one's previous citizenship. The period of residence is reduced to three years for foreign women married to Thai men.^[13] In 2003, 48 people applied for naturalisation, of whom ten were approved.^[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_nationality_law

Edited July 20, 2014 by MrWorldwide

[beautifulthailand99]

You'd think that the airlines are going to have to be the ones who decide whether they will fly you to Thailand ....or not.

Who's going to be responsible for flying out those refused entry at Thai airports?

They certainly do it in the UK I mistakenly used a passport which had 5 months 3 weeks and 4 days remaining to check in on BA at Heathrow a few years ago and it took over an hour of cajoling and an offer that I would indemnify BA from any potential fine that they might incur as Thai immigration states that your passport should have 6 months remaining.It was touch and go whether I could fly.

[beautifulthailand99]

You'd think that the airlines are going to have to be the ones who decide whether they will fly you to Thailand ....or not.

Who's going to be responsible for flying out those refused entry at Thai airports?

They certainly do it in the UK I mistakenly used a passport which had 5 months 3 weeks and 4 days remaining to check in on BA at Heathrow a few years ago and it took over an hour of cajoling and an offer that I would indemnify BA from any potential fine that they might incur as Thai immigration states that your passport should have 6 months remaining.It was touch and go whether I could fly.

[stevenl]

You'd think that the airlines are going to have to be the ones who decide whether they will fly you to Thailand ....or not.

Who's going to be responsible for flying out those refused entry at Thai airports?

They certainly do it in the UK I mistakenly used a passport which had 5 months 3 weeks and 4 days remaining to check in on BA at Heathrow a few years ago and it took over an hour of cajoling and an offer that I would indemnify BA from any potential fine that they might incur as Thai immigration states that your passport should have 6 months remaining.It was touch and go whether I could fly.

Only for visa application, for visa exempt entry the minimum required validity is the duration of your stay.

[NomadJoe]

" No doubt they had to fill out reams of paperwork to deport me"

Not really. They wouldn't be deporting you because you never entered.

[beautifulthailand99]

ah those pesky double nationalities, where can you buy one

as this pesky country, even my wife & kids are thai, i will never, nor any other farang, will ever get thai nationality, only PR if you pay the big ticket

Reary ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Heinecke

Heinecke naturalized as a Thai citizen in 1991, renouncing United States citizenship in the process

Edit: Under the 1992 Nationality Act, naturalisation as a Thai citizen requires five years of residence in Thailand, as well as proof of a certain minimum income and renunciation of one's previous citizenship. The period of residence is reduced to three years for foreign women married to Thai men.^[13] In 2003, 48 people applied for naturalisation, of whom ten were approved.^[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_nationality_law

and five more years to (not) be able vote - under the act !

[paz]

" No doubt they had to fill out reams of paperwork to deport me"

Not really. They wouldn't be deporting you because you never entered.

But one can appeal (from IDC), That's great paperwork, be reassured..