Thousands march for Gaza in London, clashes in Paris over Israeli onslaught

[GentlemanJim]

Funny that he left that part out.  

 

TV fair use policy. I linked to the article.

[Jingthing]

They shouldn't chant River to the Sea.

It's not rocket science. 
That is what HAMAS chants and we know what Hamas wants.

Not buying any excuses. 

People would be horrified at Israel support rallies where the most popular chant was clearly about no land for the Arabs at all. 

People would CORRECTLY read that as far right fascist / racist / openly pro genocidal.

It's not OK for Jews and it's not OK for people protesting the actions of the Jewish state of Israel. 

So don't be hypocritical. 

 

[GentlemanJim]

They shouldn't chant River to the Sea.

It's not rocket science. 
That is what HAMAS chants and we know what Hamas wants.

Not buying any excuses. 

People would be horrified at Israel support rallies where the most popular chant was clearly about no land for the Arabs at all. 

People would CORRECTLY read that as far right fascist / racist / openly pro genocidal.

It's not OK for Jews and it's not OK for people protesting the actions of the Jewish state of Israel. 

So don't be hypocritical. 

 

 

Here is a nice article explaining why "Jews for Justice in Palestine" were calling it's members to London to take part in the protest. They marched in the protest in which some people also had placards 'From the River to the Sea'. Are these Jews also all anti-semitic now?

 

From the article

 

 

AS ISRAEL showers a condensed civilian population with bombs, the world shows its disgust. When thousands march in London this Saturday among them will be supporters of Jews for Justice for Palestinians, Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods, the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network and others.

We will be proud to march alongside people from all backgrounds as partners in the long struggle to free Palestine.

<snip>

 

 It sees in pogroms and Nazism the horrors implicit in distinguishing between people on the basis of their ethnic origin, and refuses ever to play that game.

This is the politics that leads Jews like myself to oppose Israeli state violence. Some of us are firm anti-Zionists. Others long considered themselves supporters of Israel but cannot abide the barbarism of its latest killing spasm. All of us refuse the Israeli framing that sees a conflict between Jews and Arabs.

That framing can only give rise to anti-Semitism. Instead, we insist that this is a battle between an occupying army and an occupied people seeking to live in freedom, and the religion of each side is totally irrelevant to the conclusions we should draw. Tapping into a profound collective memory of discrimination and dispossession, we can feel no solidarity with Israel's occupation. Our solidarity is firmly with the Palestinian people.

Full Article here

 

http://stopwar.org.uk/news/why-jews-oppose-israel-s-occupation-of-palestine-and-attack-on-gaza#.U-XswICSwd8

 

With people like this, there is hope for a state of Israel AND a state of Palestine.

[Jingthing]

I do not think that Jews should attend rallies where pro genocide Hamas chants are featured unless they actually support those sentiments.  For the same reasons I suggest that everyone of good will being anti-genocide of any ethnicity, would not associate themselves with that chant. Again, I have never said that everyone who is opposing Israeli policy is Judeophobic.

[GentlemanJim]

I do not think that Jews should attend rallies where pro genocide Hamas chants are featured unless they actually support those sentiments.  For the same reasons I suggest that everyone of good will being anti-genocide of any ethnicity, would not associate themselves with that chant. Again, I have never said that everyone who is opposing Israeli policy is Judeophobic.

 

But a lot of people from these Jewish groups DID attend, whether you believe they should or not. Are they now anti-semitic? as you said that any protestors attending rallies where they chanted this term are anti-semitic? Perhaps these Jewish people also understand the term as it was written in the International Business Times, rather than the hate filled definition you use.

 

The use of the term 'judeophobic is also beyond ridiculous.

[Jingthing]

 

I do not think that Jews should attend rallies where pro genocide Hamas chants are featured unless they actually support those sentiments.  For the same reasons I suggest that everyone of good will being anti-genocide of any ethnicity, would not associate themselves with that chant. Again, I have never said that everyone who is opposing Israeli policy is Judeophobic.

 

But a lot of people from these Jewish groups DID attend, whether you believe they should or not. Are they now anti-semitic? as you said that any protestors attending rallies where they chanted this term are anti-semitic? Perhaps these Jewish people also understand the term as it was written in the International Business Times, rather than the hate filled definition you use.

 

The use of the term 'judeophobic is also beyond ridiculous.

 

I have never said that everyone who is against Israeli policies is Judeophobic. 

I never said everyone at the rallies with that chant are Judeophobic.

I think the chant is suggestive of genocide of Jews and clearly does not recognize Israel ... those are HAMAS positions. 

People need to make their own personal choices on how they are perceived.

Like I said if I went to a pro Israel rally and people were chanting something about never recognizing any land for Arabs ... I would just leave in disgust. I would be embarrassed to have my picture in the media associated with such a fascist sentiment. 

 

I have explained multiple times why I use the word Judeophobic and not antisemitic (the silly claims that it is not only about Jews). It's just too tedious to deal with that 100 times more. So use of the J word solves that issue ... no doubt at all it only about Jews. 

[ATF]

 

I have never said that everyone who is against Israeli policies is Judeophobic. 

I never said everyone at the rallies with that chant are Judeophobic.

I think the chant is suggestive of genocide of Jews and clearly does not recognize Israel ... there are HAMAS positions. 

People need to make their own personal choices on how they are perceived.

I have explained multiple times why I use the word Judeophobic and not antisemitic (the silly claims that it is not only about Jews). 

 

 

None of the Jews I know support Israel's policies. They want nothing to do with them. I am not pro Muslim and neither are they but neither of us wants to see children slaughtered in the name of peace.

 

Israel is just trying to wipe out a generation before it comes of age.
 

[Jingthing]

 

 

I have never said that everyone who is against Israeli policies is Judeophobic. 

I never said everyone at the rallies with that chant are Judeophobic.

I think the chant is suggestive of genocide of Jews and clearly does not recognize Israel ... there are HAMAS positions. 

People need to make their own personal choices on how they are perceived.

I have explained multiple times why I use the word Judeophobic and not antisemitic (the silly claims that it is not only about Jews). 

 

 

None of the Jews I know support Israel's policies. They want nothing to do with them. I am not pro Muslim and neither are they but neither of us wants to see children slaughtered in the name of peace.

 

Israel is just trying to wipe out a generation before it comes of age.
 

 

If you knew my posting history, you would know I have also been critical of Israeli policies ... particularly how strong the right wing is there and the west bank settlements. But that is one thing. Standing up for Hamas in a cheerleading kind of way is something entirely different. I also understand some Jews are anti-Zionist, wish Israel never existed and hope it stops existing, but I think you will find surveys of global Jews still show massive support for the existence of Israel, which of course implies the need to defend itself if it is to continue to exist. Hamas does not want it to exist. Opposing Israeli policies not the same thing as wishing the end of Israel. 

[ATF]

 

If you knew my posting history, you would know I have also been critical of Israeli policies ... particularly how strong the right wing is there and the west bank settlements. But that is one thing. Standing up for Hamas in a cheerleading kind of way is something entirely different. I also understand some Jews are anti-Zionist, wish Israel never existed and hope it stops existing, but I think you will find surveys of global Jews still show massive support for the existence of Israel, which of course implies the need to defend itself if it is to continue to exist. Hamas does not want it to exist. Opposing Israeli policies not the same thing as wishing the end of Israel. 

 

 

No one is cheerleading Hamas or any other terror organization but Israel continually flouts agreements arbitrarily. If a new leader wants to get elected all he has to promise is to build half a million new homes on the West Bank or whatever. Palestinians see no future so what do you expect them to do.

 

Israel has the power and intellect to set an example in a Muslim World of chaos. It needs to do the right thing and keep doing it.
 

[GentlemanJim]

<

I have never said that everyone who is against Israeli policies is Judeophobic. 

I never said everyone at the rallies with that chant are Judeophobic.

 

 

 

But only a few posts you said:

 

I already explained why.

If they march with people chanting "FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA" they are not only protesting Israeli actions but ALSO openly supporting genocide of millions of Jews. Clear enough.

 

 

Clear enough I guess! SO you say all those Jews from a variety of Jewish groups are openly supporting the Genocide of millions of Jews.

 

A little bit of a dramatic over-generalisation - don't ya think?

 

[Jingthing]

I just can't see Israel taking the risk of opening up Gaza too much as long as Hamas rules there. They know for a fact they will just rearm. Egypt is allied with Israel on this. Yes Gaza is between a rock and a hard place. The people definitely deserve massive sympathy and also humanitarian aid. But means to rearm ... no!

[Jingthing]

<

I have never said that everyone who is against Israeli policies is Judeophobic. 

I never said everyone at the rallies with that chant are Judeophobic.

 

 

 

But only a few posts you said:

 

I already explained why.

If they march with people chanting "FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA" they are not only protesting Israeli actions but ALSO openly supporting genocide of millions of Jews. Clear enough.

 

 

Clear enough I guess! SO you say all those Jews from a variety of Jewish groups are openly supporting the Genocide of millions of Jews.

 

A little bit of a dramatic over-generalisation - don't ya think?

 

That is indeed the MESSAGE they are projecting to the world. That is IN THE CHANT. That may indeed be different than what is in their hearts. As I said, personally I DO CARE about how I present my message to the world and would run away from a pro Israel rally with a similar intolerant chant. I am really sick of this legalistic game you are playing ... this isn't a court of law. I have said many many times and I totally mean it -- not everyone who is critical of Israeli policy is Judeophobic. Believe it or not. I totally oppose anyone who would express that too! Of course not ever criticism of Israel is inspired by hatred of Jews. If that isn't settled for you, I can't help you. You keep insisting on projecting a POV on me that I do not have, I myself am critical of Israeli policies, so this has really become annoying.

[7by7]

Jews still show massive support for the existence of Israel, which of course implies the need to defend itself if it is to continue to exist. Hamas does not want it to exist.

The following is from Wikipedia, but if you dispute it I'm sure you can come up with a reputable source to discredit it.

In June 2008, as part of an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire, Hamas ceased rocket attacks on Israel and made some efforts to prevent attacks by other organizations.[38][39] After a four-month calm, the conflict escalated when Israel carried out a military action with the stated aim of preventing an abduction planned by Hamas, using a tunnel that had been dug under the border security fence, and killed seven Hamas operatives. In retaliation, Hamas attacked Israel with a barrage of rockets.[39][40] In late December 2008, Israel attacked Gaza,[41] withdrawing its forces from the territory in mid-January 2009.[42] After the Gaza War of 2008 and 2009, Hamas continued to govern the Gaza Strip and Israel maintained its economic blockade. On May 4, 2011, Hamas and Fatah announced a reconciliation agreement that provides for "creation of a joint caretaker Palestinian government" prior to national elections scheduled for 2012.[43] According to Israeli news reports quoting Fatah leader Mahmoud Abbas, as a condition of joining the PLO, Khaled Meshaal agreed to discontinue the "armed struggle" against Israel and accept Palestinian statehood within the 1967 borders, alongside Israel.[44]

[Jingthing]

Other posters have refuted the intent of that before ... so I won't bother. Already covered. 

[Ulysses G.]

Wikipedia is lousy source. Here is something they left out of the article that they quoted.

 

"It’s not clear how the Cairo reports of Hamas’s new non-violence policy square with the blood-curdling December 14 speech in Gaza City by Hamas-Gaza leader Ismail Haniyeh, vowing “never” to recognize Israel and calling for an army to “liberate Jerusalem.” CNN correspondent Kevin Flowers strongly implies that Haniyeh and Meshaal are working at cross-purposes and Haniyeh hasn’t accepted Meshaal’s strategic shift."

[7by7]

So Hamas is split; so was the Irish Republican movement. 

 

But peace was obtained in Northern Ireland, and the chance for peace in Gaza is there if Israel want to take it; but they don't.

 

BTW, international copyright fair use laws means that Wikipedia, like ThaiVisa, cannot quote articles in full; that's why their contributors, like TV posters, should, and usually do, provide links to the actual source!

 

Your quote was hardly difficult to find; you managed it!

[Ulysses G.]

I am really sick of this legalistic game you are playing ... this isn't a court of law.

It is just nitpicking. You have made your views very clear a number of times, but your actual views do not suit his agenda.

[7by7]

What 'agenda' would that be, then?

[CBR250]

You know, Palestine has a right to exist too. Gazan citizens have a right to live free from fear of rockets too. As Palestine does not have the power to enforce its own rights, it must rely on others to do so on its behalf. The obvious entity is the occupying power - Israel. Does Israel ensure security for Palestinians and Gazans? Well, no. Does the USA? Does the EU? Does the UN? No, no, no.

When no one else will look after them, Gazans must turn to Hamas. This was how Hamas came to power in the first place - providing health and education services, welfare and food to those effected by Israel's earlier blockades of Gaza. The Gazans  have no other options - the strong countries of the west have failed them. The Arab countries are useless, as they don't want to get nuked by Israel. So Israel now reaps what they sowed with their blockades and killings in Gaza in earlier times. In 2020, will Israel be harvesting the hate and desire for revenge they have engendered by their callous disregard for life and property today? Probably. Will they care? No. A few dead IDF and thousands of dead Palestinians don't matter - just as long as they can keep stealing land.

[GentlemanJim]

If you knew my posting history, you would know I have also been critical of Israeli policies ... particularly how strong the right wing is there and the west bank settlements. But that is one thing. Standing up for Hamas in a cheerleading kind of way is something entirely different. I also understand some Jews are anti-Zionist, wish Israel never existed and hope it stops existing, but I think you will find surveys of global Jews still show massive support for the existence of Israel, which of course implies the need to defend itself if it is to continue to exist. Hamas does not want it to exist. Opposing Israeli policies not the same thing as wishing the end of Israel. 

 

 

I have a better idea. Open arms and live alongside their fellow man. Stop stealing their land, stop imprisoning their children. Tear down the barbed wire and the walls. Go back to the 67 borders and live together. Allow Palestine to build and prosper. Palestinian people would stop Hamas and anyone else who threatened their freedom. The UN could go in for the next 10 years to observe Palestinian behaviour. If they fail, then put the barbed wire back up. But they would not fail.  An integrated Israeli /Palestinian land would prosper and could be a jewel of the mediterranean. The people are treading in the land most holiest to 3 billion people and they have well and truly turned the promised land in to hell on Earth. War begets war.Peace might just work, so is therefore worth the risk, especially when you hold the biggest gun.

[Ulysses G.]

BTW, international copyright fair use laws means that Wikipedia, like ThaiVisa, cannot quote articles in full; that's why their contributors, like TV posters, should, and usually do, provide links to the actual source!

Wikipedia contributers are known for cheery picking substance that supports their point of view - as in this case. That is why it is such a lousy source when it comes to controversial issues. Even Wiki itself admits that they are not a credible source. I use it, if I can't find the information anywhere else, but also realize that it does not prove anything conclusively.

[Soutpeel]

BTW, your rampant Islamaphobia is showing.

If similar remarks as have been stated on this thread about Israel or the jewish people, posters making those remarks would be getting banned I am sure.

 

I suppose now I will be branded a neo-Nazi, anti-Israel/anti-Zionist, Judeophobe 

 

[Ulysses G.]

That is very different from planning utter GENOCIDE and advertising it. 

[dr_lucas]

 

Jews still show massive support for the existence of Israel, which of course implies the need to defend itself if it is to continue to exist. Hamas does not want it to exist.

The following is from Wikipedia, but if you dispute it I'm sure you can come up with a reputable source to discredit it.

In June 2008, as part of an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire, Hamas ceased rocket attacks on Israel and made some efforts to prevent attacks by other organizations.[38][39] After a four-month calm, the conflict escalated when Israel carried out a military action with the stated aim of preventing an abduction planned by Hamas, using a tunnel that had been dug under the border security fence, and killed seven Hamas operatives. In retaliation, Hamas attacked Israel with a barrage of rockets.[39][40] In late December 2008, Israel attacked Gaza,[41] withdrawing its forces from the territory in mid-January 2009.[42] After the Gaza War of 2008 and 2009, Hamas continued to govern the Gaza Strip and Israel maintained its economic blockade. On May 4, 2011, Hamas and Fatah announced a reconciliation agreement that provides for "creation of a joint caretaker Palestinian government" prior to national elections scheduled for 2012.[43] According to Israeli news reports quoting Fatah leader Mahmoud Abbas, as a condition of joining the PLO, Khaled Meshaal agreed to discontinue the "armed struggle" against Israel and accept Palestinian statehood within the 1967 borders, alongside Israel.[44]

 

 

This Khaled Mashal?

 

 

Mashal arrived in the Gaza Strip for the first time on 7 December 2012, beginning a four-day-long visit to the territory, for the 25th anniversary of Hamas's founding..^[37][38] Upon arriving at the Rafah border crossing between Egypt and Gaza, Mashal prostrated himself on the ground in prayer,^[39] and was "moved to tears" by his reception.^[40] Mashal referred to his visit as his "third birth" telling cheering crowds, "We politicians are in debt to the people of Gaza."^[41]

Traveling through Gaza City on the first day of his tour, Mashal visited the home of the assassinated founder of Hamas, Ahmed Yassin, as well as the home of Ahmed Jabari, the slain deputy chief of Hamas’s military wing, who was assassinated at the start of the Israeli offensive in the previous month.^[39] While coming together with Palestinian factional leaders and the families of Palestinians killed by or imprisoned in Israel, he further remarked, "The Palestinian national commitment is under the responsibility of everyone. Disagreement isn't religiously or logically correct, it will weaken us."^[42]

Addressing tens of thousands of attendees of Hamas's 25th anniversary in Gaza City's Katiba Square, Mashal stated that armed resistance was the correct path for Palestinians to gain their rights and "liberate" Palestine.^[43] He reiterated his movement’s refusal to concede any part of historical Palestine, stating "Palestine from the river to the sea, from the north to the south, is our land and we will never give up one inch."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Mashal

[GentlemanJim]

Whatever the cause, it's the ordinary people who suffer. In every case the overwhelming majority of us would prefer to live their lives in peace and prosperity. So, for me, enough is enough everywhere. No history, race, religion or any other label is worth all the killing. We are all people just the same. Forget the divisive and misguided 'war on terror' and let's start a smarter 'war on inhumanity', in all it's forms. Perhaps then, the UK/US etc can reclaim a respect in the world that better reflects the generous spirit of its citizens. We all have the power. It is in the ballot box.

 

 

 

 

 

And how many Hamas have they got so far?

[Ulysses G.]

BTW, your rampant Islamaphobia is showing.

If similar remarks as have been stated on this thread about Israel or the jewish people, posters making those remarks would be getting banned I am sure.

From the Urban Dictionary:

Radical Islam
Ideological terrorism operating under the veneer of 'religiosity', while in essence indicating a distinctive want of responsible cultural upbringing.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Radical%20Islam

[7by7]

Yes, dr_lucas, that Khaled Mashal.

It is unfortunate that Israel's aggression, as mentioned in your quote, made him withdraw his previous agreement to co existence.

BTW, Ulysses G; will you treat dr_lucas' Wikipedia quote with the same contempt as you did mine; or will you accept it as it supports your viewpoint?

[Ulysses G.]

 

 

BTW, international copyright fair use laws means that Wikipedia, like ThaiVisa, cannot quote articles in full; that's why their contributors, like TV posters, should, and usually do, provide links to the actual source!

Wikipedia contributers are known for cheery picking substance that supports their point of view - as in this case. That is why it is such a lousy source when it comes to controversial issues. Even Wiki itself admits that they are not a credible source. I use it, if I can't find the information anywhere else, but also realize that it does not prove anything conclusively.

 

 
Yet the article in question and the quote in question had a clear, easy to find link to it's source.

 

What it didn't have is the information that contradicted the point of view that the contributer was trying to present.

[ATF]

That is very different from planning utter GENOCIDE and advertising it. 

 

I believe you are living in some sort of self fulfilling Biblical prophesy of Armageddon.
 

[7by7]

That is very different from planning utter GENOCIDE and advertising it. 

 

So answer me this; what is Israel's ultimate goal in bombing and killing and maiming thousand's of innocent Palestinians?

 

All their current tactics are doing is strengthening world opinion against them, and more importantly strengthening Palestinian support for Hamas and their aims.

 

That can't be their aim, so what is?

 

As has been said, Israel refraining from it's massive over retaliation and instead holding out the olive branch may work. They certainly have nothing to lose by trying as they can resume their destruction of Gaza anytime they wish.