Thousands march for Gaza in London, clashes in Paris over Israeli onslaught

[dexterm]

 

The murdering Israeli soldiers have written "GOOD ARAB = DEAD ARAB".

You mean graffiti in the middle of a war zone in reference to the enemy?

 

That is a little different than attacking people for being Jewish in the suburbs of Paris and in yelling "Heil Hitler" at Jews in Manchester.

 

 

A demonstration in Sarcelles, 19 miles from Paris, quickly turned volatile last month when protesters set cars aflame, smashed the windows of Jewish shops and threw Molotov cocktails at two synagogues.

"The attacks against the synagogues of Sarcelles and Roquette were especially shocking," Cukierman said. "Sarcelles is a symbol. Jews, Muslims and Christians of the popular classes live there together. When it was attacked, it was an attack against the harmony that had been created between the different cultures."

Anti-Semitic hate speech and attacks in Germany have left some Jews wondering whether they are welcome.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/08/09/anti-semitism-europe/13662903/

 

 

When I visited Israel I encountered the same blind hatred towards Arabs when talking to Israeli teenagers and American Jews in a taxi to visit the Golan Heights.

 

Clearly no nation or people is exempt from hatred/racism/religionism.

 

The latest barbarism that Netanyahu has perpetrated in the name of his so called somehow still democratic but  "Jewish State of Israel" will do nothing but whip up the flames of anti-Semitism.

 

I hope both parties in the coming days extend the present truce without any preconditions that force each other into an impossible to accept corner, and sit down instead to talk about gradual tit for tat goodwill.

[Ulysses G.]

Johpa said: "As I keep saying, I find both sides are in the wrong and if you pick one side over the other then you are wrong too".
 

Both sides may be wrong - but there are also degrees of moral turpitude along the dimension of "wrongness".

Hamas could have chosen peace, but they made Gaza suffer instead.

Unfortunately, we know the path Hamas chose. Even as Israel was completing the process of withdrawing all its settlers and soldiers from Gaza, Hamas carried out a bus-station bombing in Israel. Then, from late 2005 to early 2006, Hamas conducted multiple attacks on the very crossing points that allowed people and goods to move into and out of Gaza. For Hamas, it was more important to continue “resistance” than to allow Gazans to constructively test their new freedom — or to give Israelis a reason to think that withdrawal could work. Some argue that Israel withdrew but imposed a siege on Gaza. In reality, Hamas produced the siege. Israel’s tight embargo on Gaza came only after ongoing Hamas attacks.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hamas-could-have-chosen-peace-instead-it-made-gaza-suffer/2014/08/08/eefd2b48-1d83-11e4-82f9-2cd6fa8da5c4_story.html

[Pattszero]

 

 

 

The second greatest anti-semitic act of the twentieth century was shipping all the Jews out of Europe and into Israel.

If they had stuck around, they would have all ended up being gassed. Now THAT Is "Disgusting"!

 

 
Gassed in 1945 after the war ended?  and in 1946? 1947?  
 
Virtually no aid was given to Jews wishing to return to their pre-war homes - they were shipped out enmasse - from the camps to Israel.  Never seeing their old homes again.

 

Actually, a number of Jews were murdered for trying to claim their homes. They would have preferred to stay in Europe, but they were given little choice, but to emigrate. 

 

 

That's my point - even after the war they were victimized in Europe - they were washed out on an anti-semitic wave. 

 

I know plenty of Jews that recognize that. 

[dr_lucas]

 

 
Graffiti left by Israeli soldiers at the home of an innocent Palestinian man. Photo taken from one of the links to The Guardian newspaper (quoted above). 
 

 
The murdering Israeli soldiers have written "GOOD ARAB = DEAD ARAB".

This is what the lucky few that have a home in those areas to return to are greeted with.
It is also popular for the Israeli soldiers to smeer their feeces on the homes walls. Nice bunch of moral soldiers these guys.

 

 

It looks like a small carving on a piece of wood, not graffiti. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Sadly, there is usually a handful of moronic rogue soldiers in every army, in every war.

The IDF try and imprison such rogue soldiers usually. (And rightfully so!)

There are also very similar Graffitis in many places in Gaza ("ITBAH AL YAHUD" = slaughter the Jews, in Arabic).

If you follow news & photos from other war-zones in the region and others, you will see similar or sometimes far worse actions.

 

 

If Israeli civilians were not being constantly terrorized, Israel wouldn't have attacked Gaza. Simple.  Hamas terror organization is the cancer in Gaza. Many Gazans think the same way. Before Hamas took control and its armed militants started the "radical revolution" there (attacking the Multinational Force and Observers among other attacks aimed to gain control of the strip), Gaza was a relatively lively & thriving place and had a chance to become a "jewel" in the area.

 

Receiving billions of dollars from countries worldwide. Money which could have easily be used for improving education, infrastructures, health services, etc.  Most of it was used to arm Hamas, and over 2 billion dollars to dig smuggling tunnels and terror tunnels to Egyptian and Israeli territories, instead of using the money for the right causes.  Huge sums have found their ways to Hamas leaders bank accounts.  What you guys are  currently doing, by your obvious one-sided demonetization of Israel and lack of persistent condemnation for a terror group, is supporting terror, even if only passively.

 

The more you support it, by condemning a sovereign nation that is being terrorized, the more it will thrive.  The more it will thrive, the greater chance you give it to come back one day to hunt you at your own back yards, by the same terror group or another similar to it with similar ideologies. They simply sit and learn what worked for others. Terror offers no gratitude for active or passive support. The writing is on the wall. You don't have to agree, you can choose to dismiss the danger out of hand, but I suggest that you at least think about it.  There are ways to resolve conflicts.  Terror isn't one of them.  Don't let terror win.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Scott

[mania]

If Israeli civilians were not being constantly terrorized, Israel wouldn't have attacked Gaza. Simple.

The more you support it, by condemning a sovereign nation that is being terrorized, the more it will thrive.

Obviously not simple....as even you must realize what you just said cuts both ways.

It is simplistic though to suggest when folks condemn actions perpetrated on a people that it some how equals condemning a sovereign nation. It does not...not for me anyway.

It is the actions themselves & those that authorize such that I condemn.

But put that aside & lets stick to .....if someone is not terrorize/abused...they will not likely try to attack you
Apply it to both sides. Edited August 11, 2014 by mania

[GentlemanJim]

 

 

 
Graffiti left by Israeli soldiers at the home of an innocent Palestinian man. Photo taken from one of the links to The Guardian newspaper (quoted above). 
 

The murdering Israeli soldiers have written "GOOD ARAB = DEAD ARAB".

This is what the lucky few that have a home in those areas to return to are greeted with.
It is also popular for the Israeli soldiers to smeer their feeces on the homes walls. Nice bunch of moral soldiers these guys.

 

 

It looks like a small carving on a piece of wood, not Graffiti.

 

Sadly, there is usually a handful of moronic rogue soldiers in every army, in every war.

The IDF try and imprison such rogue soldiers usually. (And rightfully so!)

There are also very similar Graffitis in many places in Gaza ("ITBAH AL YAHUD" = slaughter the Jews, in Arabic).

If you follow news & photos from other war-zones in the region and others, you will see similar or sometimes far worse actions.

 

 

If Israeli civilians were not being constantly terrorized, Israel wouldn't have attacked Gaza. Simple.

Hamas terror organization is the cancer in Gaza. Many Gazans think the same way.

Before Hamas took control and its armed militants started the "radical revolution" there (attacking the Multinational Force and Observers among other attacks aimed to gain control of the strip), Gaza was a relatively lively & thriving place and had a chance to become a "jewel" in the area.

Receiving billions of dollars from countries worldwide. Money which could have easily be used for improving education, infrastructures, health services, etc.

Most of it was used to arm Hamas, and over 2 billion dollars to dig smuggling tunnels and terror tunnels to Egyptian and Israeli territories, instead of using the money for the right causes.

Huge sums have found their ways to Hamas leaders bank accounts.

What you guys are currently doing, by your obvious one-sided demonetization of Israel and lack of persistent condemnation for a terror group, is supporting terror, even if only passively.

The more you support it, by condemning a sovereign nation that is being terrorized, the more it will thrive.

The more it will thrive, the greater chance you give it to come back one day to hunt you at your own back yards, by the same terror group or another similar to it with similar ideologies.

They simply sit and learn what worked for others. Terror offers no gratitude for active or passive support.

The writing is on the wall. You don't have to agree, you can choose to dismiss the danger out of hand, but I suggest that you at least think about it.

There are ways to resolve conflicts.

Terror isn't one of them.

Don't let terror win.

 

 

To cut to the chase you say

 

"What you guys are currently doing, by your obvious one-sided demonetization of Israel and lack of persistent condemnation for a terror group, is supporting terror, even if only passively.

The more you support it, by condemning a sovereign nation that is being terrorized, the more it will thrive."

 

Can you guys start thinking straight! I have not seen one person on here in support of a terrorist organization - NOT ONE! If you can find posts in support of Hamas Terrorists then dig them out and put them up. As far as I see WE are complaining because of the killing of a thousand - yes more than a THOUSAND innocent women and children. You can harp on about Hamas as much as you like, I will not listen, for the simple reason that the response is not measured in any sense of the concept. There was a thread here a week ago called 'Israel using a sledge hammer to crack walnuts' or something to that effect, It is frankly more like using a Nuke to combat a hand grenade.

 

Stop your protection of the Israeli Government. Me and 4.5 or more Billion other people are sick of it. You might get a load of sympathy for Israeli CITIZENS if you at least acted with a bit of humanity and recognise the absolute brutality of the current Israeli administration, instead what do we have on here? One thousand women and kids being slaughtered and another poster claiming now how dreadful it is  that as a consequence,  somebody shouted Heil Hitler at a few Jews in Germany and scrawled anti jewish graffiti on a wall! Are we on the same planet here!

Edited August 11, 2014 by Scott

[Ulysses G.]

Can you guys start thinking straight! I have not seen one person on here in support of a terrorist organization - NOT ONE!

It has been pointed out to you repeatedly that they were so vile that they have been deleted. However, there is a constant stream of posts making excuses and justifications for the actions of the terrorist group Hamas, which is pretty much the same thing.
 

What you guys are currently doing, by your obvious one-sided demonetization of Israel and lack of persistent condemnation for a terror group, is supporting terror, even if only passively.
The more you support it, by condemning a sovereign nation that is being terrorized, the more it will thrive.

Absolutely. 

Edited August 11, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

 

 

 

If one could think rationally, I emphasize the word rationally, who really is to be blamed for ALL the innocent blood that is shed today?

I mean the ROOT cause?

(A very unpalatable subject, indeed)

 

One obvious candidate as a ROOT cause is religious fundamentalism. Not only in Hamas, either.

The Times of Israel reported that, at the start of the war on July 9th, an official IDF dispatch sent to Battalion and company commanders by Givati Brigadier Commander Colonel Ofer Winter read:

"History has chosen us to spearhead the fighting against the terrorist Gazan enemy which abuses, blasphemes and curses the God of Israel's forces". (Reported in Thomas Friedman's column, International NY Times, 7th July, p9).

 

Reminds me of some messages from the Taliban. Nothing like a bit of religious fanaticism to keep up morale of the troops, eh? And he doesn't bother with the pretense of targetting Hamas. It's Gazans that he says is fighting. This could be a fun one to explain away at a War Crimes Tribunal hearing.

 

 

 

Haven't read Friedman's column on this, so not aware if he bothered to mention the controversy this saying  caused within

Israel. Many did not like that one bit. Hardly represents all of Israel or all of the IDF. 
 

 

 

No, the outrageous statement doesn't represent all of Israel or the IDF. Just the majority. After all, it is the majority who voted in the current Israeli government of murderous fruitcakes. Did Netanyahu condemn this statement? Did Lieberman? Did Moshe Ya'alon? Or perhaps Israel's former Defence Minister Ben-Elieze, who advocates the assassination of Hamas' leaders rather than negotiation?

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't know that the majority of Israelis are right wing religious Jews, I would actually say this is not the case.

Just for reference, Lieberman's party, while being right wing, holds anti-religious views as well (life is complicated

in the Middle East). Did not suggest any of the people mention denounced it - others did, though. My point was

more to do with making blanket statements based on a quote.

 

The current Israeli coalition government is not made up solely of right wing parties, by the way.
 

[Morch]

What is "outrageous" about it? It is a pretty typical religious ploy by some guy in the military to whip up the troops before battle. It happens everywhere. 

 

Not really that acceptable by IDF norms, though.  While the IDF abides by certain religious prohibitions (mostly to allow religious Jews to serve, and as a product of political compromises), outright sayings like this one are rare. If it would have been said in quieter times, there would be more of a attention paid to it. With events chasing each other and spirits running high, the commander got away with it.

[Morch]

 

64 soldiers were killed by Hamas terrorists ad thousands of rockets shot at Israeli homes. It is not exactly surprising the IDF has no love for their enemy.  

 

Israel was formed by Israeli terrorists by driving out British Troops from Palestine.

 

How can you call people that have had their land stolen from them terrorists? I thought the word was freedom fighters.

 

The only reason Israel exists is because it provides a foothold for the US in the Middle East.
 

 

 

Israel was formed by a UN resolution.  The Brits were moved to depart by both Arabs and Jews resistance and the realization that the cost of holding on was getting too high. The Arabs rejected the UN resolution calling for the creation of Palestine, mounted a war and lost - the land was not stolen.  How is Israel functioning as a foothold for the US in the Middle East and what does it make Qatar, then?
 

[Morch]

 

 

If it's the conduct of some of the Israeli military that has got you frothing I suggest you avert your gaze from every other army or militia in the world or you'll likely have a thrombosis.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

 

That is not the point. Women and children are being targeted just as the Israelis did with cluster bombs in Lebanon 6-7 years back.

 

They haven't got the nuts to go full out and slaughter the Palestinians because they would get crushed by the Arab World.
 

 

 

The whole point of cluster bombs use being considered an outrage is that they are not targeting anyone, rather indiscriminate.

 

Crushed by the Arab world? Really? How much support do you see in this Arab world for the Hamas or for the plight of the Gazans? Which Arab states do you think will join this coalition in order to crush Israel?
 

[Morch]

 

UG just incase you missed it Palestine was recorded as early as the 5th century BC
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

The region. There was a Jewish state called Palestine back in the olden days, but never an Arab one.

 

 

A Jewish state? Called Palestine? Maybe more a province under control of a foreign empire?

And perhaps it included not only Jews?

[dr_lucas]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sadly, there is usually a handful of moronic rogue soldiers in every army, in every war.

The IDF try and imprison such rogue soldiers usually. (And rightfully so!)

There are also very similar Graffitis in many places in Gaza ("ITBAH AL YAHUD" = slaughter the Jews, in Arabic).

If you follow news & photos from other war-zones in the region and others, you will see similar or sometimes far worse actions.

 

 

If Israeli civilians were not being constantly terrorized, Israel wouldn't have attacked Gaza. Simple.

Hamas terror organization is the cancer in Gaza. Many Gazans think the same way.

Before Hamas took control and its armed militants started the "radical revolution" there (attacking the Multinational Force and Observers among other attacks aimed to gain control of the strip), Gaza was a relatively lively & thriving place and had a chance to become a "jewel" in the area.

Receiving billions of dollars from countries worldwide. Money which could have easily be used for improving education, infrastructures, health services, etc.

Most of it was used to arm Hamas, and over 2 billion dollars to dig smuggling tunnels and terror tunnels to Egyptian and Israeli territories, instead of using the money for the right causes.

Huge sums have found their ways to Hamas leaders bank accounts.

What you guys are currently doing, by your obvious one-sided demonetization of Israel and lack of persistent condemnation for a terror group, is supporting terror, even if only passively.

The more you support it, by condemning a sovereign nation that is being terrorized, the more it will thrive.

The more it will thrive, the greater chance you give it to come back one day to hunt you at your own back yards, by the same terror group or another similar to it with similar ideologies.

They simply sit and learn what worked for others. Terror offers no gratitude for active or passive support.

The writing is on the wall. You don't have to agree, you can choose to dismiss the danger out of hand, but I suggest that you at least think about it.

There are ways to resolve conflicts.

Terror isn't one of them.

Don't let terror win.

 

 

To cut to the chase you say

 

"What you guys are currently doing, by your obvious one-sided demonetization of Israel and lack of persistent condemnation for a terror group, is supporting terror, even if only passively.

The more you support it, by condemning a sovereign nation that is being terrorized, the more it will thrive."

 

Can you guys start thinking straight! I have not seen one person on here in support of a terrorist organization - NOT ONE! If you can find posts in support of Hamas Terrorists then dig them out and put them up. As far as I see WE are complaining because of the killing of a thousand - yes more than a THOUSAND innocent women and children. You can harp on about Hamas as much as you like, I will not listen, for the simple reason that the response is not measured in any sense of the concept. There was a thread here a week ago called 'Israel using a sledge hammer to crack walnuts' or something to that effect, It is frankly more like using a Nuke to combat a hand grenade.

 

Stop your protection of the Israeli Government. Me and 4.5 or more Billion other people are sick of it. You might get a load of sympathy for Israeli CITIZENS if you at least acted with a bit of humanity and recognise the absolute brutality of the current Israeli administration, instead what do we have on here? One thousand women and kids being slaughtered and another poster claiming now how dreadful it is  that as a consequence,  somebody shouted Heil Hitler at a few Jews in Germany and scrawled anti jewish graffiti on a wall! Are we on the same planet here!

 

 

There were many such posts which were deleted. Next time I will capture some screenshots and post.

I did say "even if only passively" and by not equally condemning and protesting Hamas actions.

Which more than thousand innocents do you refer to? Did you read the BBC report?

Are you aware of Israel's military power?

Do you know Israel can wipe Gaza on its 1.8 million residents from the air in less than 15 minutes?

Do you know Israel sent its infantry into Gaza? Do you know why it did it, risking the lives (and having over 60 of its soldiers die and hundred injured) of its infantry instead of bombing the area from the air? Does that make any sense to you?!

If you are concerned about the innocents, did you condemn Hamas for using them as human shields?

If you are concerned about the innocents, did you go and protest opposite the local Egyptian embassy to open their Gaza border and let civilians cross it, during the time Israel is trying to eradicate Hamas terror?

Have you read my post regarding the term "slaughter" you keep on using?

 

Here are some reminders:

 

It is a war. A war on terror in a urban area, not in the desert.

Sadly, innocents die in wars and the images are always far too graphic, even when there is no genocide, no slaughter, no massacre and no ethnic cleansing. In all these legal terms, there must be intent to kill. Do you suggest the IDF intends to kill and deliberately targets civilians? 

There are, without a doubt, accidents (indeliberate civilian casualties) as well when fighting in a condense populated & very hostile urban area, full of Hamas armed guerrilla militants (many of them dressed as IDF soldiers or blend in a group of civilians to camouflage themselves), hidden rockets, bombs & civilians used as human shields. And when hospitals, schools, mosques, UN ambulances and other civilian properties are used to assault soldiers.

The IDF has accidentally killed and injured its own soldiers ("friendly fire") on more than one occasion (many of these incidents, in most armies, don't even get publicized in order to not hurt morale obviously). Are they now slaughtering their own soldiers?

Have you ever seen an army or nation (including the ones Johpa mentioned) which conducts "genocide" setup a hospital to treat the wounded of the side it tries to kill?

http://www.globes.co...zans-1000956531

 

Have you ever seen an army which conducts "genocide" provide humanitarian aid to the side it tries to kill?

http://www.jspacenew...an-aid-to-gaza/

 

Or to an enemy state's civilians (Syria):

http://www.haaretz.c...efense/1.561530

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1qpaWTu0eU

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KakxXN5Z-XI

 

 

Full Article: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28688179

Even the traditionally anti-Israeli and Pro-Palestinian BBC had to admit that Hamas' provided casualty figures have been "inaccurate" and questions the claim that the IDF attacked "indiscriminately".

 

 

Edited August 11, 2014 by Scott
Edited for fair use

[Morch]

 

 

You would think that because "Israel exists because the UN granted them their own country", they might comply with UN resolutions but......nope.....not 1, they never have done.

Actually, that is - yet another - lie - Israel has complied with a number of UN resolutions.

However, they do ignore many of them, because they are so numerous and so unfairly applied. The U.N. General Assembly in 2013 adopted a total of 21 resolutions singling out Israel for criticism and 4 resolutions for the rest of the world combined.
There were zero UNGA resolutions on serious and systematic abuses committed by China, Egypt, Pakistan, Cuba, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Zimbabwe, nor on many other major perpetrators of harsh violations of human rights.

 

 

The whole foundation of what exists now is because they ignored UN designated borders in the first place

 

 In the 1948 war, Israel pushed well beyond the UN-designated borders to claim land that was to have been part of a Palestine state, including the western half of Jerusalem. They also uprooted and expelled entire Palestinian communities, creating about 700,000 refugees, whose descendants now number 7 million and are still considered refugees

 

 

 

 

 

The Arabs rejected the very same UN-designated borders (as well as the creation of both Israel and Palestine) and started a war against the newly formed state. The Arab countries which supported to Palestinians were against reaching an agreement after the war and were confident of winning the next round. This did not  happen and the refusal to compromise perpetuated the Palestinian people's plight.

 

The fledgling Israeli armed forces did contribute their fair share to the Palestinian exodus. However, there were other factors leading to it - promises by Arab leaders that the war will be over soon and they could return,  scare mongering of attrocities which were quite exaggerated and basic common sense of people in war zones, fleeing when danger approaches.

 

Hardly all down to Israel "ignoring" UN designated borders.
 

[Morch]

 

The "Palestinian territories" were not even part of Israel until 1967. 
Israel has been trying to make peace with the Palestinians for years. Several governments tried and failed.

Yes they have and in a token of good will they removed occupying troops from Gaza in 2005, but blockaded the whole territory and turned Gaza in to what some human right organisations call an open air prision or even a ghetto

 

Further Israeli settlers have moved into the west bank in violation of international law, which prohibits an occupying force moving its citizens into occupied territory, but although officially the Israeli goverment doesnt support this, they are not active on getting them removed either and they slowly and "quietly" allowing land grabbing to occur

 

I dont know where I read it but remember quote from someone which went along the lines of:

 

Both sides have squandered peace and perpetuated conflict, but palestinians today bear most of the suffering

 

Please spare me the sermon on how Israel is the innocent and just party in this conflict, only wanting peace, both sides are as bad as each other

 

 

 

The blockade on the Gaza Strip did not become what it is today until after the Hamas took over. During 2005, the Gaza Strip was controlled by the PA (led by Fatah). Most of the current restriction were not in place then, and went into effect circa 2007, after the Hamas victory.

 

Your portrayal of the West Bank situation, with the illegal settlement effort and official/unofficial Israeli  government support games is quite on the mark, though.
 

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

But it was, my dear.

Those anti-Jewish forces I detailed that make French Jews feel unsafe living in France anymore are well represented at the "Free Gaza" rallies. 

 

 

This is an obvious attempt to bait me into violating the forum rules, but I won't fall for it. 

 

Stay on topic--Marches for Gaza. 

 

 

 

indeed, marching for Gaza is a right afforded in democratic countries.

I'm sure there are thousands of Gazan's who would love to march against Hamas, but we all know the consequences.

 

It's interesting don't you think that while Gaza is one of the the main topics on the world news here, no-one seems to want to start a thread about the Isis genocide and ethnic cleansing, which has forced tens of thousand's of Christians to flee for their lives and probably brought USA back into Iraq, which I'm sure no one wanted. 

 

Archbishop Athanasius Toma Dawod of the Syriac Orthodox church said; 

"Now we consider it genocide – ethnic cleansing," he said. "They are killing our people in the name of Allah and telling people that anyone who kills a Christian will go straight to heaven: that is their message. They have burned churches; they have burned very old books. They have damaged our crosses and statues of the Virgin Mary. They are occupying our churches and converting them into mosques." http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/08/isis-persecution-iraqi-christians-genocide-asylum

 

I'm sure before too long we will have a thread.

In the meantime back to Gaza.  

 

 

I am anti all bullies.

Maybe we should have a thread about the way the Bhutanese treat Nepalese.

 

You can't save the world. Just focus on injustices you know something about. Try to make one part of the world a little more civilized at least, and maybe the idea will spread.

 

 

The UN been focusing on this part of the world for years, while being less vigilant and interested with other global issues.  So either the proposed notion is not very effective and is still being adhered to for no obvious reason, or that there are underlying reasons with the UN obsession with Israel.
 

[Ulysses G.]

UG just incase you missed it Palestine was recorded as early as the 5th century BC
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

The region. There was a Jewish state called Palestine back in the olden days, but never an Arab one.

 
A Jewish state? Called Palestine? Maybe more a province under control of a foreign empire?
And perhaps it included not only Jews?

It was Israel. It eventually became first a client kingdom and then a province of the Roman Empire. The Romans changed the name to Palestine.

[Morch]

<

 

 

If it wants to be regarded as part of the 21st century family of civilized developed nations, it should act like one.

It already does. How many countries in the world would warn civilians to leave before bombing their enemy? alt=thumbsup.gif>

 

 

Your compassion and caring knows no bounds!

 

Where would you like all these civilians to leave to? I take it you have been there? They are packed in like sardines, surrounded by walls and razor wire. Just where would you like them to go when they are told 'get out' we are going to bomb you? Incidentally the IRA and Baader Meinhoff group used to give warning to civilians before they bombed buildings - that made it all ok then didn't it? If Israel were really after Hamas, why would they tell them to get out the building before they bombed it? Do they think civilians will eave and Hamas will stay inside? They are just after the total destruction and slaughter of Palestine. The agenda is so clear to those with open eyes, but not to those with deaf ears.

 

I have no idea how many posters actually been to Israel and Palestine (both/either West Bank and Gaza  Strip).  I know I have.

 

The notion that all of the Gaza Strip is one solid built up area is catchy but misleading. Not that there are  abundant lands or anything like that, but definitely fields, beaches and some decent sized private housing exist.

 

The IAF airstrikes that preceded the ground move were conducted with more due diligence than international  law states.  Warning were given well ahead when targets in civilian areas were  involved - the whole process of how this worked was covered in previous posts on different threads. There is a certain gap between what the law says and what seems to be morally correct, but that is not a singular instance of this when laws are considered. Either way, the initial situation even made the Palestinian frustrated, as Israel's actions, while destructive, were in accordance with relevant laws, while the Hamas rocket fire certainly was not.

 

Before mounting the ground move, the IDF issued a general warning for residents of relevant neighborhoods in Gaza, warning them to clear out ahead of impeding attack. This phase lasted for a few days, and was only partially heeded by residents. At this point in time, it was still feasible for civilians to move about and get out.

 

The change came about when the ground move by the IDF commenced - with many civilians not evacuating their homes casualty figures soared. This was further compounded by IDF mission parameters being changed during the operation, making the tunnels a priority rather than the rocket launchers, in response to several Hamas incursions into Israel. Dealing with the tunnel threat meant extending the war zone and more forces and operations on the ground. There was a marked decrease in IDF ability to conduct precision attacks and avoid civilian casualties during this stage. While I do acknowledge the both the difficulties of conducting operations in a densely populated area, and Hamas cynical use of civilians - cannot see how all of these deaths were necessary, or unavoidable. Some of the decision making evident was obviously faulty.  May I suggest that if Israel was indeed after the "total destruction and slaughter of Palestine" it could have employed

much more effective measures in order to achieve this end, and could have done so years ago.

[Pattszero]

 

 

64 soldiers were killed by Hamas terrorists ad thousands of rockets shot at Israeli homes. It is not exactly surprising the IDF has no love for their enemy.  

 

Israel was formed by Israeli terrorists by driving out British Troops from Palestine.

 

How can you call people that have had their land stolen from them terrorists? I thought the word was freedom fighters.

 

The only reason Israel exists is because it provides a foothold for the US in the Middle East.
 

 

 

Israel was formed by a UN resolution.

The Brits were moved to depart by both Arabs and Jews resistance and the realization that the cost of holding on was

getting too high. The Arabs rejected the UN resolution calling for the creation of Palestine, mounted a war and lost -

the land was not stolen.

How is Israel functioning as a foothold for the US in the Middle East and what does it make Qatar, then?
 

 

 

You know - it's this level of self-delusion that underpins the whole debacle.  The UN was a fledgling puppet - a combination of guilty white men and minor Americas nations foisted the Israel solution onto the middle east - against the wishes of every nation in the area that was at that point a UN member. 

 

It was a calamity from the beginning - and anyone putting store behind the UN of that day is in denial of the reality.  

[dr_lucas]

But put that aside & lets stick to .....if someone is not terrorize/abused...they will not likely try to attack you

Apply it to both sides.

 

I take it you haven't read the Hamas charter calling for the annihilation of all Jews or heard its leaders saying they will not stop until they "liberate" every part of Palestine AND Israel, have you?

 

Just a few examples:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygbJDcOTjjw

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QlFG6435J0

[Ulysses G.]

64 soldiers were killed by Hamas terrorists ad thousands of rockets shot at Israeli homes. It is not exactly surprising the IDF has no love for their enemy.

 
Israel was formed by Israeli terrorists by driving out British Troops from Palestine.
 
How can you call people that have had their land stolen from them terrorists? I thought the word was freedom fighters.
 
The only reason Israel exists is because it provides a foothold for the US in the Middle East.

 
Israel was formed by a UN resolution.
The Brits were moved to depart by both Arabs and Jews resistance and the realization that the cost of holding on was
getting too high. The Arabs rejected the UN resolution calling for the creation of Palestine, mounted a war and lost -
the land was not stolen.
How is Israel functioning as a foothold for the US in the Middle East and what does it make Qatar, then?

 
You know - it's this level of self-delusion that underpins the whole debacle.

Even if you were right, it does not matter any more. It is ancient history. Israel is a self-supporting, fully fledged, modern country with one of the world's best armies. It is not going anywhere.

[Morch]

 

 

 

So in a protest of 15000 people, because a few at the front might be chanting "From The River to the Sea", the rest of the protestors stretching back a mile and a half are suddenly collaborating with anti-semitic types because they want to stop the carnage in Palestine.

 

Now you can go on as long and as much as you like, but no amount of BS arguments will get me to consider that the wholesale killing of innocent women and children is either justified or OK. I could sit and debate with you for as long s needed about this situation if you would draw a line in the sand and say "you know what, you are right, I firmly believe in the right of Israel to exist but...the killing of all these innocents must stop". I do not believe that Hamas should be permitted to rocket attack and harm innocent Israeli civilians - can you hear that? and I do not believe that Israel should be permitted to kill all these innocents. It is called humanity, and it is a quality sadly lacking in many on here.

 

No. This is now the STANDARD chant at Free Gaza protests all over the world.

To present this as fringe or outlying is a total deception.

Anyone paying the slightest bit of attention already knows that and could not be fooled.

 

Their chant:
FREE FREE PALESTINE

FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA

PALESTINE WILL BE FREE

 

There is NO ROOM for Israel or it's millions of JEWS in that popular chant. They are indeed cheerleading for Hamas and in effect cheerleading for the genocide of the Jews.

 

If I were some where now where it was legal to have a PRO ISRAEL rally and the people starting chanting something to support genocide of Arabs or that there should be no land in the region for Arabs to live in  ... I would be out of there SO QUICK it isn't even funny. 

 

Yes I know there is a minority of Jews who ideologically believe Israel should expand to include all the west bank and Gaza with nothing for Arabs, but again, if I accidentally attended a rally where that was THE CHANT, I would be HORRIFIED to be seen with them. 

 

To much hysteria is being published by pro-israeli web-sites to ensure an atmosphere of of terror and hatred exists. The International Business Times tackled this very problem in an article which asks the question - "The River to the Sea - What does it mean" the link is provided below. In an interview, this was given as the answer, and I see little problem with this sentiment. So here it is from the mouth of someone likely to say it!

 

 

Perhaps the most powerful response came from Shahd Abusalama, an activist and journalist from Gaza, now living in Turkey, who writes for IBTimes UK.

"A liberated Palestine means that my imaginative homeland, which my grandmother made me always long for with her nostalgic memories, will not be a matter of imagination. It means that I will return to my origional village of Beit-Jerja from which my grandparents were ethnically cleansed, and harvest the crops of citrus and olive trees that they left behind. It means that I will not be treated by Israel as a demographic threat to their Jewish-only entity.

"A liberated Palestine means that Israeli jails, which my father calls "graves for the living" after he was imprisoned there as a political detainee for 15 years, will be emptied. A free Palestine means that I will be able to move freely within Palestine and outside it without being humiliated and abused when crossing between military checkpoints, borders or airports. A free Palestine means that I will no longer feel that Jerusalem is too far despite it being just half an hour away from where I live in the besieged Gaza Strip.

My underlines.

 

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/freepalestine-what-does-it-really-mean-1458888

 

The West Bank and Gaza strip, stretch from 'The River to the Sea". All the Palestinians want is what they had and what has been taken away from them. They want what is written above. The large majority of Palestinians do NOT want the eradication of Israel, just as a huge number of Israeli's do not want the suffering to continue in Gaza. But there are evil men on both sides that want the mutual destruction of the other. Simple.

 

I find it amazing that many people in Tel Aviv voice more concern for the welfare of the people in Gaza than the pro-Israeli voices here on TV. I guess you would just call those people mis-guided old fools as well though, Jewish or not, living in the place or not.

 

 

The village she mentions was not in either the West Bank nor in the Gaza Strip, though.  So while true she wants what was taken from her grandparents, it does not exactly do much to alleviate Israeli fears that such wishes incorporate a wish for the destruction of Israel (not really important if this is a physical threat or a one state solution thing). I feel for the Palestinian refugees who lost their homes and lands, many had nothing to do with any of the hostilities, many had no real say in events which led to their plight. That said, not always possible of feasible to turn back time. History can not always be undone.

 

Not all Palestinians seek the destruction of Israel, not all the Palestinians are against compromise.  Then again, many do and many are.  I would say that, for obvious reasons, the haters are much more evident on the Palestinian side (not really blaming them for that). With elections and credible opinion polls among Palestinians being a rarity, it is hard to judge how the majority feels and what it supports. The notion that there is not massive support for hate, on either side, is quite misguided, though.

 

The Hamas position on this is rather clear.

[Morch]

 

 

I have never said that everyone who is against Israeli policies is Judeophobic. 

I never said everyone at the rallies with that chant are Judeophobic.

I think the chant is suggestive of genocide of Jews and clearly does not recognize Israel ... there are HAMAS positions. 

People need to make their own personal choices on how they are perceived.

I have explained multiple times why I use the word Judeophobic and not antisemitic (the silly claims that it is not only about Jews). 

 

 

None of the Jews I know support Israel's policies. They want nothing to do with them. I am not pro Muslim and neither are they but neither of us wants to see children slaughtered in the name of peace.

 

Israel is just trying to wipe out a generation before it comes of age.
 

 

 

We all have imaginary friends who conveniently support or oppose whatever.  That hardly makes a strong argument even if they are real, anyway.

 

Israel is definitely not "trying to wipe out a generation before it comes of age" - if that was Israel's aim there would have been much effective ways to go about it. The notion that this has nothing at all to do with Hamas is quite disingenuous.

 

Be critical of Israel all you wish, enough real things to hold against it without resorting to hyperbole.

[Morch]

 

 

If you knew my posting history, you would know I have also been critical of Israeli policies ... particularly how strong the right wing is there and the west bank settlements. But that is one thing. Standing up for Hamas in a cheerleading kind of way is something entirely different. I also understand some Jews are anti-Zionist, wish Israel never existed and hope it stops existing, but I think you will find surveys of global Jews still show massive support for the existence of Israel, which of course implies the need to defend itself if it is to continue to exist. Hamas does not want it to exist. Opposing Israeli policies not the same thing as wishing the end of Israel. 

 

 

No one is cheerleading Hamas or any other terror organization but Israel continually flouts agreements arbitrarily. If a new leader wants to get elected all he has to promise is to build half a million new homes on the West Bank or whatever. Palestinians see no future so what do you expect them to do.

 

Israel has the power and intellect to set an example in a Muslim World of chaos. It needs to do the right thing and keep doing it.
 

 

 

Are you suggesting that the Hamas always held on to understandings and agreements? Or that the PA did?

Israeli governments had their share of dealing in less than good faith, but that's hardly a one-sided street.

 

Likewise, the assertion that all an Israeli leader has to do in order to get elected  is to support the illegal settlement

effort, shows very little knowledge or in-depth understanding of Israeli domestic politics.

 

Israel is not part of the Muslim world and as far as I know, is not generally seen as a role model for Muslim states.

Piling this bogus responsibility on Israel is quite out there.
 

[Scott]

A post in violation of fair use has been edited.   Please only post the first 3 sentences of an article and then a link to the remainder.  

 

[Morch]

 

The following is from Wikipedia, but if you dispute it I'm sure you can come up with a reputable source to discredit it.

In June 2008, as part of an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire, Hamas ceased rocket attacks on Israel and made some efforts to prevent attacks by other organizations.[38][39] After a four-month calm, the conflict escalated when Israel carried out a military action with the stated aim of preventing an abduction planned by Hamas, using a tunnel that had been dug under the border security fence, and killed seven Hamas operatives. In retaliation, Hamas attacked Israel with a barrage of rockets.[39][40] In late December 2008, Israel attacked Gaza,[41] withdrawing its forces from the territory in mid-January 2009.[42] After the Gaza War of 2008 and 2009, Hamas continued to govern the Gaza Strip and Israel maintained its economic blockade. On May 4, 2011, Hamas and Fatah announced a reconciliation agreement that provides for "creation of a joint caretaker Palestinian government" prior to national elections scheduled for 2012.[43] According to Israeli news reports quoting Fatah leader Mahmoud Abbas, as a condition of joining the PLO, Khaled Meshaal agreed to discontinue the "armed struggle" against Israel and accept Palestinian statehood within the 1967 borders, alongside Israel.[44]

 

 

The original source for the this line raises doubts as to the reality and seriousness of the claim:

http://blogs.forward.com/forward-thinking/148473/does-hamas-joining-plo-mean-it-accepts--states/

(which includes further partially linked references to other media reports).

 

The Hamas did not directly announce anything of the sort (it is communicated by Abbas, and other reports are phrased somewhat differently, in a less definitive manner regarding Hamas's actual stand) and in fact, leaders publicly said quite the opposite on more than one occasion, here's an example:

 

 

Leader Celebrates Founding of Hamas With Defiant Speech

GAZA CITY — Khaled Meshal, the political leader of Hamas, gave a defiant speech on Saturday, vowing to build an Islamic Palestinian state on all the land of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

 

Speaking before tens of thousands of supporters to celebrate the 25th anniversary of the founding of Hamas, Mr. Meshal said the Jewish state would be wiped away through “resistance,” or military action. “The state will come from resistance, not negotiation,” he said. “Liberation first, then statehood.”

 

His voice rising to a shout, Mr. Meshal said: “Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on any inch of the land.” He vowed that all Palestinian refugees and their descendants would one day return to their original homes in what is now Israel.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/world/middleeast/khaled-meshal-hamas-leader-delivers-defiant-speech-on-anniversary-celebration.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

Worth noting that news of Hamas mellowing down can often be associated with economic and political support issues - such as having to relocate from Syria following playing the wrong card, and running into an economic crisis which made them go for another reconciliation effort with the Fatah. This pattern is in line with the  concept of warfare which allows for temporary truces to be acceptable, with continuation of the fight when conditions change - it is not, by any means, much akin to peace in the way most of us understand the concept - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudna

[mania]

 
I take it you haven't read the Hamas charter calling for the annihilation of all Jews or heard its leaders saying they will not stop until they "liberate" every part of Palestine AND Israel, have you?
 

Oh I have heard all right..... ad nauseam as anyone who has ever read any thread that mentions Israel has.

But one is sticks & stones...words
the other is flechette bombs tearing the flesh from children.

I am not too upset by idle threats made in anger after being treated badly for decades Edited August 11, 2014 by mania

[Morch]

So Hamas is split; so was the Irish Republican movement. 

 

But peace was obtained in Northern Ireland, and the chance for peace in Gaza is there if Israel want to take it; but they don't.

 

BTW, international copyright fair use laws means that Wikipedia, like ThaiVisa, cannot quote articles in full; that's why their contributors, like TV posters, should, and usually do, provide links to the actual source!

 

Your quote was hardly difficult to find; you managed it!

 

Hamas is not exactly split between pro-peace and anti-peace factions.  There are quite a few fault lines, but they have more to do with exercising power and control over Hamas assets, units, and funds, as well as claiming the seniority when it comes to leadership. Then there's a split between the political wing and the

military wing (which is not always to say that the military wing is indeed the more militant), and the split between leadership in the Gaza Strip and leadership abroad.

 

The differences are not always ideological, but more to do with determining if current conditions merit taking a temporary course of action which represents a more pragmatic stand. This is not normally reach offering a challenge to core ideals.
 

[dr_lucas]

Sadly, there is usually a handful of moronic rogue soldiers in every army, in every war.

The IDF try and imprison such rogue soldiers usually. (And rightfully so!)

There are also very similar Graffitis in many places in Gaza ("ITBAH AL YAHUD" = slaughter the Jews, in Arabic).

If you follow news & photos from other war-zones in the region and others, you will see similar or sometimes far worse actions.

 

 

If Israeli civilians were not being constantly terrorized, Israel wouldn't have attacked Gaza. Simple.

Hamas terror organization is the cancer in Gaza. Many Gazans think the same way.

Before Hamas took control and its armed militants started the "radical revolution" there (attacking the Multinational Force and Observers among other attacks aimed to gain control of the strip), Gaza was a relatively lively & thriving place and had a chance to become a "jewel" in the area.

Receiving billions of dollars from countries worldwide. Money which could have easily be used for improving education, infrastructures, health services, etc.

Most of it was used to arm Hamas, and over 2 billion dollars to dig smuggling tunnels and terror tunnels to Egyptian and Israeli territories, instead of using the money for the right causes.

Huge sums have found their ways to Hamas leaders bank accounts.

What you guys are currently doing, by your obvious one-sided demonetization of Israel and lack of persistent condemnation for a terror group, is supporting terror, even if only passively.

The more you support it, by condemning a sovereign nation that is being terrorized, the more it will thrive.

The more it will thrive, the greater chance you give it to come back one day to hunt you at your own back yards, by the same terror group or another similar to it with similar ideologies.

They simply sit and learn what worked for others. Terror offers no gratitude for active or passive support.

The writing is on the wall. You don't have to agree, you can choose to dismiss the danger out of hand, but I suggest that you at least think about it.

There are ways to resolve conflicts.

Terror isn't one of them.

Don't let terror win.

 

 

To cut to the chase you say

 

"What you guys are currently doing, by your obvious one-sided demonetization of Israel and lack of persistent condemnation for a terror group, is supporting terror, even if only passively.

The more you support it, by condemning a sovereign nation that is being terrorized, the more it will thrive."

 

Can you guys start thinking straight! I have not seen one person on here in support of a terrorist organization - NOT ONE! If you can find posts in support of Hamas Terrorists then dig them out and put them up. As far as I see WE are complaining because of the killing of a thousand - yes more than a THOUSAND innocent women and children. You can harp on about Hamas as much as you like, I will not listen, for the simple reason that the response is not measured in any sense of the concept. There was a thread here a week ago called 'Israel using a sledge hammer to crack walnuts' or something to that effect, It is frankly more like using a Nuke to combat a hand grenade.

 

Stop your protection of the Israeli Government. Me and 4.5 or more Billion other people are sick of it. You might get a load of sympathy for Israeli CITIZENS if you at least acted with a bit of humanity and recognise the absolute brutality of the current Israeli administration, instead what do we have on here? One thousand women and kids being slaughtered and another poster claiming now how dreadful it is  that as a consequence,  somebody shouted Heil Hitler at a few Jews in Germany and scrawled anti jewish graffiti on a wall! Are we on the same planet here!

 

 

There were many such posts which were deleted. Next time I will capture some screenshots and post.

I did say "even if only passively" and by not equally condemning and protesting Hamas actions.

Which more than thousand innocents do you refer to? Did you read the BBC report?

Are you aware of Israel's military power?

Do you know Israel can wipe Gaza on its 1.8 million residents from the air in less than 15 minutes?

Do you know Israel sent its infantry into Gaza? Do you know why it did it, risking the lives (and having over 60 of its soldiers die and hundred injured) of its infantry instead of bombing the area from the air? Does that make any sense to you?!

If you are concerned about the innocents, did you condemn Hamas for using them as human shields?

If you are concerned about the innocents, did you go and protest opposite the local Egyptian embassy to open their Gaza border and let civilians cross it, during the time Israel is trying to eradicate Hamas terror?

Have you read my post regarding the term "slaughter" you keep on using?

 

Here are some reminders:

 

It is a war. A war on terror in a urban area, not in the desert.

Sadly, innocents die in wars and the images are always far too graphic, even when there is no genocide, no slaughter, no massacre and no ethnic cleansing. In all these legal terms, there must be intent to kill. Do you suggest the IDF intends to kill and deliberately targets civilians? 

There are, without a doubt, accidents (indeliberate civilian casualties) as well when fighting in a condense populated & very hostile urban area, full of Hamas armed guerrilla militants (many of them dressed as IDF soldiers or blend in a group of civilians to camouflage themselves), hidden rockets, bombs & civilians used as human shields. And when hospitals, schools, mosques, UN ambulances and other civilian properties are used to assault soldiers.

The IDF has accidentally killed and injured its own soldiers ("friendly fire") on more than one occasion (many of these incidents, in most armies, don't even get publicized in order to not hurt morale obviously). Are they now slaughtering their own soldiers?

Have you ever seen an army or nation (including the ones Johpa mentioned) which conducts "genocide" setup a hospital to treat the wounded of the side it tries to kill?

http://www.globes.co...zans-1000956531

 

Have you ever seen an army which conducts "genocide" provide humanitarian aid to the side it tries to kill?

http://www.jspacenew...an-aid-to-gaza/

 

Or to an enemy state's civilians (Syria):

http://www.haaretz.c...efense/1.561530

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1qpaWTu0eU

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KakxXN5Z-XI

 

 

 

Even the traditionally anti-Israeli and Pro-Palestinian BBC had to admit that Hamas' provided casualty figures have been "inaccurate" and questions the claim that the IDF attacked "indiscriminately".

 

 

"It's important to bear in mind that in Operation Cast Lead [the last Israeli ground offensive in December 2008-January 2009], Hamas and Gaza-based organisations claimed that only 50 combatants were killed, admitting years later the number was between 600-700, a figure nearly identical to the figure claimed by the IDF."

In conclusion, we do not yet know for sure how many of the dead in Gaza are civilians and how many were fighters. This is in no sense the fault of the UN employees collecting the figures - their statistics are accompanied by caveats and described as preliminary and subject to revision.

But it does mean that some of the conclusions being drawn from them may be premature.

Full Article: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28688179

 

Properly re-edited to comply with fair use policy. (original post is no longer editable)

 

@GentlemanJim - I also ask you the same question - Are we on the same planet here!? Can you logically answer the questions (in blue) written above?

Edited August 11, 2014 by dr_lucas

[Morch]

You know, Palestine has a right to exist too. Gazan citizens have a right to live free from fear of rockets too. As Palestine does not have the power to enforce its own rights, it must rely on others to do so on its behalf. The obvious entity is the occupying power - Israel. Does Israel ensure security for Palestinians and Gazans? Well, no. Does the USA? Does the EU? Does the UN? No, no, no.

When no one else will look after them, Gazans must turn to Hamas. This was how Hamas came to power in the first place - providing health and education services, welfare and food to those effected by Israel's earlier blockades of Gaza. The Gazans  have no other options - the strong countries of the west have failed them. The Arab countries are useless, as they don't want to get nuked by Israel. So Israel now reaps what they sowed with their blockades and killings in Gaza in earlier times. In 2020, will Israel be harvesting the hate and desire for revenge they have engendered by their callous disregard for life and property today? Probably. Will they care? No. A few dead IDF and thousands of dead Palestinians don't matter - just as long as they can keep stealing land.

 

Hamas political assent was more to do with the PA (under Fatah leadership) being perceived as both massively corrupt and

as useless in dealing with/opposing Israel. So not hardly just about seeking protection.

 

The blockade on the Gaza Strip effectively became a reality after Hamas took control and not before ("earlier blockades").

With Gazan's options rather limited after Hamas took control and wiping the opposition, saying that civilians had not choice

is asinine. More like, there was no going back.

 

There are many reasons why Arab countries support for the Palestinians (and as a separate issue, for Hamas) was not

very effective or enthusiastic - summing it up to not wanting to "get nuked by Israel" is quite a novelty and a new low in

the level of informed discussion.