Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[samran]

4 hours ago, Badb0y said:

Hungarian

As long as your home country has no issues with dual citizenship, there isn’t an issue from the thai side keeping it after you obtain thai nationality. 

[ubonjoe]

13 hours ago, Badb0y said:

The problem with Thai citizenship I have to leave my original citizenship and this one I don’t want.

You do not have to do that unless your home country does not allow dual nationalities.

Thailand has no requirement for you to give up your current nationality to get citizenship.

[Michael Hare]

8 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

When you obtain an exit/re-entry stamp it's placed in your original passport and your PR book, and the words on the stamp placed in your passport are:

_____________________________________________________

       NON-QUOTA IMMIGRANT VISA

 

       No.  ................................................ 

 

       This visa is good for  multiple  return journeys to Thailand. 

       It must be utilized before ......................

 

_____________________________________________________

In reality this is an exit/re-entry stamping.

Is this what you see as PR re-approval?

 

Let's remember that this stamp only goes into a passport when the PR holder requests an exit / re-entry stamp.

 

If it's a single entry exit/re-entry stamp it could be stamped into the passport and used tomorrow to leave Thailand and return to Thailand the next day. On return this stamp is now redundant (used). In other words it's not a re-approval of PR, and it's not an annual re-approval of PR, remembering that another single journey exit/re-entry stamp might be obtained and used the next week. Annual is not in the picture.

 

To continue, maybe the PR holder doesn't apply for an exit/re-entry stamp (single journey or multiple journeys) for another ten years. But you seem to be saying that there is a requirement for PR re-approval every year.

 

In 20 plus years nobody at the passport control desks (out or in) has ever mentioned anything about this, and when I have applied for a new PR blue then white book (because old book close to full - now recently started the third white book) nobody has ever mentioned that I should have got an annual PR re-approval before I applied for an exit/re-entry stamp.

 

 

Can I please ask other PR holders, do you get an annual PR re-approval stamp in your passport? (Not meaning an exit/re-entry stamp, which is a different matter). 

 

Thanks.

 

Further, you mention 'endorsement'.

 

Endorsement in this scenario actually means 'copied', and means that the exit/re-entry stamp just placed in the passport is endorsed / copied into the PR book. 

 

All PR holders pay 3,800Baht for the exit/re-entry stamp to be placed in their passport.

 

Then all PR holders pay 1,900Baht for the same stamp / details to be endorsed /copied into the PR book.

 

 

Arkady / other PR holders would you please share your understanding on all of this.

 

 

 

Scorecard you are absolutely correct in everything you say. I only get an exit reentry stamp when I want to leave Thailand on a holiday or business. Then I get a multi-entry exit-reentry stamp which costs a total of 5,700 baht as stated by Scorecard. A few years ago I never left Thailand for three years and therefore never had to get this exit-reentry stamp. No point in paying out 5,700 baht for nothing and wasting a trip to immigration. 

 

In all my years in Thailand and years of holding PR, I have never heard of what Onthemoon is writing about: 

 

Our conversation has just clarified that in Thailand, you need to get an endorsement and a new visa every year if you have PR, even though the PR is confusingly called "permanent" - it vapourises the moment you leave the country without these yearly stamps. Nothing permanent about that.

 

For PR holders there is no such thing as an annual visa. PR holders also can let their passport expire as they have PR. Of course, if they have to leave Thailand, they will have to have a current passport and get the exit-reentry stamps in their passport and blue-white book. 

[jayboy]

44 minutes ago, Michael Hare said:

Scorecard you are absolutely correct in everything you say. I only get an exit reentry stamp when I want to leave Thailand on a holiday or business. Then I get a multi-entry exit-reentry stamp which costs a total of 5,700 baht as stated by Scorecard. A few years ago I never left Thailand for three years and therefore never had to get this exit-reentry stamp. No point in paying out 5,700 baht for nothing and wasting a trip to immigration. 

 

In all my years in Thailand and years of holding PR, I have never heard of what Onthemoon is writing about: 

 

Our conversation has just clarified that in Thailand, you need to get an endorsement and a new visa every year if you have PR, even though the PR is confusingly called "permanent" - it vapourises the moment you leave the country without these yearly stamps. Nothing permanent about that.

 

For PR holders there is no such thing as an annual visa. PR holders also can let their passport expire as they have PR. Of course, if they have to leave Thailand, they will have to have a current passport and get the exit-reentry stamps in their passport and blue-white book. 

I endorse this completely. Scorecard has set out the position carefully and accurately. Frankly, Onthemoon's posts on the subject are misleading.

 

He says, "Without these two stamps, the permanent residency is anything but permanent - unless you never leave the country. The option to leave must always be open" without seeming to understand these two sentences are contradictory. If he means for frequent PR travellers it's sensible to see that the necessary stamps are in the passport, that is correct though known to all PRs anyway. But it's simply inaccurate and misleading to say "the option to leave must always be open".

Edited January 2, 2019 by jayboy

[onthemoon]

9 hours ago, mortenaa said:

If you don't need to leave the country, you don't need to ever go to Immigration again. With PR You can live happily ever after ????

PR IS permanent! 

I cannot live happily ever after if I am not allowed to leave the country, under penalty of losing my PR status.

It is not permanent if you leave the country without getting the stamps first.

[onthemoon]

11 hours ago, samran said:

Not quite. Australia and NZ require PRs to get Return Resident Visas before travelling otherwise PR does expire on depture.

 

Unlike Thailand however they are automatically granted when one gains PR and have to be renewed (in the case of Australia) every 3 months, 1 year or 5 years depending on length of time spent in Australia as a PR.

Interesting that another country also requires the stamps, but they do grant them automatically. We could also compile a list of countries that say, once you have PR status, you can also come and go as you please. I think that list would be much longer...

[onthemoon]

10 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

When you obtain an exit/re-entry stamp it's placed in your original passport and your PR book, and the words on the stamp placed in your passport are:

_____________________________________________________

       NON-QUOTA IMMIGRANT VISA

 

       No.  ................................................ 

 

       This visa is good for  multiple  return journeys to Thailand. 

       It must be utilized before ......................

 

_____________________________________________________

In reality this is an exit/re-entry stamping.

Is this what you see as PR re-approval?

 

Let's remember that this stamp only goes into a passport when the PR holder requests an exit / re-entry stamp.

 

If it's a single entry exit/re-entry stamp it could be stamped into the passport and used tomorrow to leave Thailand and return to Thailand the next day. On return this stamp is now redundant (used). In other words it's not a re-approval of PR, and it's not an annual re-approval of PR, remembering that another single journey exit/re-entry stamp might be obtained and used the next week. Annual is not in the picture.

 

To continue, maybe the PR holder doesn't apply for an exit/re-entry stamp (single journey or multiple journeys) for another ten years. But you seem to be saying that there is a requirement for PR re-approval every year.

 

In 20 plus years nobody at the passport control desks (out or in) has ever mentioned anything about this, and when I have applied for a new PR blue then white book (because old book close to full - now recently started the third white book) nobody has ever mentioned that I should have got an annual PR re-approval before I applied for an exit/re-entry stamp.

 

 

Can I please ask other PR holders, do you get an annual PR re-approval stamp in your passport? (Not meaning an exit/re-entry stamp, which is a different matter). 

 

Thanks.

 

Further, you mention 'endorsement'.

 

Endorsement in this scenario actually means 'copied', and means that the exit/re-entry stamp just placed in the passport is endorsed / copied into the PR book. 

 

All PR holders pay 3,800Baht for the exit/re-entry stamp to be placed in their passport.

 

Then all PR holders pay 1,900Baht for the same stamp / details to be endorsed /copied into the PR book.

 

 

Arkady / other PR holders would you please share your understanding on all of this.

 

 

 

What you refer to as the exit/re-entry stamp is the Non-Quota Immigrant Visa in your passport plus the Endorsement in your White Book. And that's what I am talking about.

 

I never mentioned re-approval, that's your word. I did mention that your PR status is automatically cancelled  if you don't have these stamps in your passport and leave the country, hence the status is not permanent.

Edited January 2, 2019 by onthemoon

[scorecard]

26 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

I cannot live happily ever after if I am not allowed to leave the country, under penalty of losing my PR status.

It is not permanent if you leave the country without getting the stamps first.

it's permanent however every country, including Thailand, has some ongoing simple rules / simple processes regarding keeping PR.

 

1. The PR holder can physically be outside of Thailand in one block time period up to 364 days and no problems regarding PR status, however out of Thailand 365 days or more, in one block time period and PR automatically cancels. 

 

2. PR is automatically cancelled if the PR holder gains a criminal record in Thailand or anywhere.

 

3. The PR holder must have current exit/ re-entry stamps to facilitate leaving and returning to LOS.

 

There have been many comments over many years that if you leave without a current exit/re-entry stamp then there is risk that on return your PR could be cancelled. I'm not aware of this actually happening, but I have no access to any records or past cases of this scenario. 

 

Annual re-approval of PR / any situation of re-approval of PR does not exist in any shape or form.

Edited January 2, 2019 by scorecard

[scorecard]

5 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

What you refer to as the exit/re-entry stamp is the Non-Quota Immigrant Visa in your passport plus the Endorsement in your White Book. And that's what I am talking about.

 

I never mentioned re-approval, that's your word. I did mention that your PR status is automatically cancelled  is you don't have these stamps in your passport and leave the country, hence the status is not permanent.

Now your just diverting. And yes earlier you did mention re-approval.

 

How this subject is handled in other country is not relevant to Thailand or to this thread.

[onthemoon]

9 hours ago, Kinnock said:

I'm getting very confused reading the last few posts.  

 

I currently have a Non Imm annual multi entry based on me setting up a BOI  business, and it gets renewed each year.  I don't have to do anything special when leaving or returning on business trips each month, and my entry visa is always stamped as valid to the expiry date of the current annual Non Imm stamp.

 

I'm currently applying for a PR, and have an 'application in progress' stamp in my passport that I was told to not use when leaving or re-entering Thailand.  I was told that having paid local tax for 8 years would help getting a PR, and that is was worth getting while I'm still working.

 

I had thought that getting PR at some point in the future was a good idea, as my current re-entry status is based on my work, so if I retire here I thought PR would be better after I finished working.  Now it sounds like it's of limited value and adds complexity when entering and leaving Thailand?

 

Am I going for the wrong option?

 

You now need to re-new your non-imm every year (or every two years), or you use the "under consideration" stamp from applying for PR, which needs to be renewed every six months. When you have PR and still want to leave the country sometimes, you have to make sure that your stamps are not older than 1 year on the date of return, so if you travel regularly, that's a trip to Chaeng Wattana once a year. So, there is not more paperwork involved, rather less: You only fill in two forms to get the stamps, not tons of company paperwork like for the non-imm.

 

Once you retire, the PR stays valid even if you don't work for a company any more. You still need to get the stamps once a year if you want to leave the country sometimes, or if you want to prepare for an emergency and suddenly learn on a Saturday evening that you have to be on a flight on Sunday. The stamps can only be given at Chaeng Wattana during government working hours, not at the airport.

 

I would never be without these re-entry stamps, even if I didn't have this job that requires me to leave the country often. So it's yearly trips to Chaeng Wattana, even though the word says "permanent" residency. However, still easier that with non-imm.

[scorecard]

2 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

You now need to re-new your non-imm every year (or every two years), or you use the "under consideration" stamp from applying for PR, which needs to be renewed every six months. When you have PR and still want to leave the country sometimes, you have to make sure that your stamps are not older than 1 year on the date of return, so if you travel regularly, that's a trip to Chaeng Wattana once a year. So, there is not more paperwork involved, rather less: You only fill in two forms to get the stamps, not tons of company paperwork like for the non-imm.

 

Once you retire, the PR stays valid even if you don't work for a company any more. You still need to get the stamps once a year if you want to leave the country sometimes, or if you want to prepare for an emergency and suddenly learn on a Saturday evening that you have to be on a flight on Sunday. The stamps can only be given at Chaeng Wattana during government working hours, not at the airport.

 

I would never be without these re-entry stamps, even if I didn't have this job that requires me to leave the country often. So it's yearly trips to Chaeng Wattana, even though the word says "permanent" residency. However, still easier that with non-imm.

There are other places where a PR holder can get the exit/re-entry stamps, at airports and at local immigration offices, I got my last set of stamps at Chiang Mai immigration, there is one specific officer who handles it (but she was called away and another officer stepped in and easily completed the stamps). All done and gone in 15 minutes. 

 

[onthemoon]

13 minutes ago, scorecard said:

it's permanent however every country, including Thailand, has some ongoing simple rules / simple processes regarding keeping PR.

 

1. The PR holder can physically be outside of Thailand in one block time period up to 364 days and no problems regarding PR status, however out of Thailand 365 days or more, in one block time period and PR automatically cancels. 

 

2. PR is automatically cancelled if the PR holder gains a criminal record in Thailand or anywhere.

 

3. The PR holder must have current exit/ re-entry stamps to facilitate leaving and returning to LOS.

 

Annual re-approval of PR / any situation of re-approval of PR does not exist in any shape or form.

I agree with you here.

 

1. 364-day-rule: This is understandable. If you don't live in the country, you are not a permanent resident. Many countries draw the line at 364 days in a row.

 

2. No criminal record anywhere: This is also understandable. If I were the law-maker, I would leave this requirement in.

 

3. Re-entry stamp: This is the point we are discussing. Give me one single reason (apart from it being a source if income for the government) for this requirement.

 

I am not talking about re-approval, you brought this in. 

[onthemoon]

8 minutes ago, scorecard said:

There are other places where a PR holder can get the exit/re-entry stamps, at airports and at local immigration offices, I got my last set of stamps at Chiang Mai immigration, there is one specific officer who handles it (but she was called away and another officer stepped in and easily completed the stamps). All done and gone in 15 minutes. 

 

Chiang Mai airport is different from Suvarnabhumi then. On a good day, they do re-entries for non-imm holders but have never issued re-entries for PR holders.

 

Besides: Why should there be a requirement for these stamps anyway? Why do you lose your PR status upon re-entry if you didn't get these stamps in advance? Since they don't check anything, why do we need these stamps?

Edited January 2, 2019 by onthemoon

[scorecard]

5 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

I agree with you here.

 

1. 364-day-rule: This is understandable. If you don't live in the country, you are not a permanent resident. Many countries draw the line at 364 days in a row.

 

2. No criminal record anywhere: This is also understandable. If I were the law-maker, I would leave this requirement in.

 

3. Re-entry stamp: This is the point we are discussing. Give me one single reason (apart from it being a source if income for the government) for this requirement.

 

I am not talking about re-approval, you brought this in. 

Quote:

 

"3. Re-entry stamp: This is the point we are discussing. Give me one single reason (apart from it being a source if income for the government) for this requirement."

 

I don't know why the immigration people insist on exit/re-entry stamps, who does? The earlier posts were not on this point, your just looking for a diversion.

Edited January 2, 2019 by scorecard

[scorecard]

1 minute ago, onthemoon said:

Chiang Mai airport is different from Suvarnabhumi then. On a good day, they do re-entries for non-imm holders but have never issued re-entries for PR holders.

You are wrong, recently I got exit/re-entry stamps at CM immigration, I've got the stamps at CM immigration 3 or 4 times. 

[onthemoon]

2 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

Scorecard you are absolutely correct in everything you say. I only get an exit reentry stamp when I want to leave Thailand on a holiday or business. Then I get a multi-entry exit-reentry stamp which costs a total of 5,700 baht as stated by Scorecard. A few years ago I never left Thailand for three years and therefore never had to get this exit-reentry stamp. No point in paying out 5,700 baht for nothing and wasting a trip to immigration. 

 

In all my years in Thailand and years of holding PR, I have never heard of what Onthemoon is writing about: 

 

Our conversation has just clarified that in Thailand, you need to get an endorsement and a new visa every year if you have PR, even though the PR is confusingly called "permanent" - it vapourises the moment you leave the country without these yearly stamps. Nothing permanent about that.

 

For PR holders there is no such thing as an annual visa. PR holders also can let their passport expire as they have PR. Of course, if they have to leave Thailand, they will have to have a current passport and get the exit-reentry stamps in their passport and blue-white book. 

I am not sure why you say you have never heard about what I said, while in the first and the last paragraphs you confirm that you have...?

[onthemoon]

3 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Quote:

 

"3. Re-entry stamp: This is the point we are discussing. Give me one single reason (apart from it being a source if income for the government) for this requirement.

 

I don't know why the immigration people insist on exit/re-entry stamps. The earlier posts were not on this point, your just looking for a diversion.

All my posts were only on this point. Please read my posts again.

 

Yes, immigration *does* insist on these stamps, otherwise you lose your PR once you leave and then re-enter the country. That makes it non-permanent. "Permanent" means that you don't lose it (albeit I agree with the first two reasons above, as there is logic behind it).

[scorecard]

1 minute ago, onthemoon said:

I am not sure why you say you have never heard about what I said, while in the first and the last paragraphs you confirm that you have...?

Yes he is confirming that PR holders need to have an exit/re-entry stamp when you depart Thailand and return. Well known, nothing new.

 

He's also confirming that he gets an exit/re-entry stamp as needed, nothing more / nothing less, same as most other PR holders.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

9 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

Yes, immigration *does* insist on these stamps, otherwise you lose your PR once you leave and then re-enter the country. That makes it non-permanent. "Permanent" means that you don't lose it (albeit I agree with the first two reasons above, as there is logic behind it).

"There Is Nothing Permanent Except Change." Heraclitus. 

[onthemoon]

15 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Yes he is confirming that PR holders need to have an exit/re-entry stamp when you depart Thailand and return. Well known, nothing new.

 

He's also confirming that he gets an exit/re-entry stamp as needed, nothing more / nothing less, same as most other PR holders.

 

We agree. It's not new, but it is annoying and unnecessary. And it will lead to your PR even being cancelled if you don't have the stamp before departure. .

 

A pretty harsh penalty for not having a stamp that has no meaning, I'd say. Do we agree on this?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "most other PR holders", though. Are you saying the Green Card holders in the US, or non-EU citizens who are PR holders in the EU need re-entry stamps before leaving the country? 

[scorecard]

15 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

 

We agree. It's not new, but it is annoying and unnecessary. And it will lead to your PR even being cancelled if you don't have the stamp before departure. .

 

A pretty harsh penalty for not having a stamp that has no meaning, I'd say. Do we agree on this?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "most other PR holders", though. Are you saying the Green Card holders in the US, or non-EU citizens who are PR holders in the EU need re-entry stamps before leaving the country? 

I suggest your way too serious about '...therefore it's not permanent...'

 

Personally;  yes a bit of a nuisance, but not difficult, and I expect that I must follow some simple rules to maintain my PR status.

 

Maybe there are good reasons why Thai immigration is insistent on exit/re-entry stamps, but I don't know anything more about this point.

 

My comment "...most other PR holders..." is purely in regard to Thai PR, nothing more. I don't see any point, in this thread, in discussing how this works in other countries. 

[scorecard]

Your earlier post:

 

On 1/1/2019 at 10:17 AM, onthemoon said:

It's always been a couple of days for me for the new white book, and I always do it at the same time as the new re-entry stamp (excuse me: the Endorsement and Non-Quota Immigrant Visa to ensure every year over and over again that our "permanent" residence does not expire).

 

Your basically saying re-approval to ensure PR does not expire. Wrong.

 

 

[onthemoon]

3 minutes ago, scorecard said:

I suggest your way too serious about '...therefore it's not permanent...'

 

Personally;  yes a bit of a nuisance, but not difficult, and I expect that I must follow some simple rules to maintain my PR status.

 

Maybe there are good reasons why Thai immigration is insistent on exit/re-entry stamps, but I don't know anything more about this point.

 

My comment "...most other PR holders..." is purely in regard to Thai PR, nothing more. I don't see any point, in this thread, in discussing how this works in other countries. 

I see. I don't know most other Thai PR holders, but obviously there are those who do not want to have the option of leaving on short-notice, so be it.

 

I agree it's not much more than a nuisance to get the stamps, but I find the penalty unreasonably harsh if you suddenly have to leave on a weekend or forgot to renew the stamps. (I was able to cancel my morning flight in the example above, and I took the evening flight. What if I had not had that option?)

 

Hence, I advocate abolishing the requirement for the yearly re-entry stamps. We should get one stamp into the passport, you may call it "Non-Quota Immigrant Visa", but it should be valid "indefinitely", not only for one year. And it should be transferred from one passport to the next. This is my suggestion.

 

Another suggestion is to do away with the Blue/White Book altogether. I understand the purpose when it was introduced, but today we have computers and all the entries/exits are in there. In fact, if you use the auto-channel, you don't even get a stamp, proving that that book has no meaning any more.

 

And let's not talk about the reddish "Alien Book"...

[onthemoon]

9 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Your earlier post:

 

On 1/1/2019 at 10:17 AM, onthemoon said:

It's always been a couple of days for me for the new white book, and I always do it at the same time as the new re-entry stamp (excuse me: the Endorsement and Non-Quota Immigrant Visa to ensure every year over and over again that our "permanent" residence does not expire).

 

Your basically saying re-approval to ensure PR does not expire. Wrong.

 

 

You are misinterpreting my words. That's because of a different perspective: For me, leaving the country often and sometimes on very short notice, is normal. For you, leaving the country is an exceptional event.

 

So, if you don't plan to leave the country, even for unexpected family events, you are right. From my perspective, once the re-entry stamps expire, my PR is gone upon re-entering the country. That's why I used the word "expire". I never used the word "re-approval", as that would be a whole different process.

 

I hope to have clarified.

[scorecard]

41 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

I see. I don't know most other Thai PR holders, but obviously there are those who do not want to have the option of leaving on short-notice, so be it.

 

I agree it's not much more than a nuisance to get the stamps, but I find the penalty unreasonably harsh if you suddenly have to leave on a weekend or forgot to renew the stamps. (I was able to cancel my morning flight in the example above, and I took the evening flight. What if I had not had that option?)

 

Hence, I advocate abolishing the requirement for the yearly re-entry stamps. We should get one stamp into the passport, you may call it "Non-Quota Immigrant Visa", but it should be valid "indefinitely", not only for one year. And it should be transferred from one passport to the next. This is my suggestion.

 

Another suggestion is to do away with the Blue/White Book altogether. I understand the purpose when it was introduced, but today we have computers and all the entries/exits are in there. In fact, if you use the auto-channel, you don't even get a stamp, proving that that book has no meaning any more.

 

And let's not talk about the reddish "Alien Book"...

 

Quote:".....if you suddenly have to leave on a weekend or forgot to renew the stamps. (I was able to cancel my morning flight in the example above, and I took the evening flight. What if I had not had that option?)."

 

This is why you can obtain the exit/re-entry stamps at the airports and there are other locations besides CW.

 

I'm not interested in your diversions about the blue/white books, yes a bit of a nuisance but not difficult and I'm sure the day will come when the process is streamlined.

 

This thread is not about the Police Registration book, different subject / different government agency. I support that the police should be keeping a watch on what foreigners are in Thailand, that's part of their job.

 

My guess (pure guess) is that someday, way into the future this process will also be streamlined. 

[scorecard]

44 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

You are misinterpreting my words. That's because of a different perspective: For me, leaving the country often and sometimes on very short notice, is normal. For you, leaving the country is an exceptional event.

 

So, if you don't plan to leave the country, even for unexpected family events, you are right. From my perspective, once the re-entry stamps expire, my PR is gone upon re-entering the country. That's why I used the word "expire". I never used the word "re-approval", as that would be a whole different process.

 

I hope to have clarified.

 

Your just diverting. 

How the exit / re-entry stamps works is the same for you as every other Thai PR holder. 

No further comment. 

 

 

[Arkady]

I think that we are now all clear on the fact that PRs do not need to renew endorsements/re-entry permits, if they don't plan to travel overseas, even for emergency trips at short notice. If you do re-enter Thailand with these expired for any reason whatsoever, the Immigration Act specifically requires Immigration to terminate your PR with no appeal process. A friend lost his PR because he was forced to stay overseas longer than expected due to a medical emergency that required surgery and recovery time before travelling. Even with medical certificates proving this, there was nothing Immigration could do for him except give him the application forms to re-apply at the next opportunity.

 

Some people I know, e.g. those with no overseas business that might need urgent attention and no surviving relatives overseas, find it convenient to let things lapse until they plan an overseas holiday and there's nothing wrong with that. Others find they cannot take this risk and there's nothing wrong with that either. So let's leave this part of the discussion at that, since the last few posts on the sub-topic have not added much value to readers.

 

Re the red, blue and white books. We are aware that the processes are antiquated and that some, if not all, of them actually date back to the original Immigration Act of 1927. We are also aware that BORA now issues a pink ID card to PRs which could easily be transformed into a smart card like Thai ID cards that carries all pertinent information and could replace the red, blue and white books completely. However, this ignores the fact that there are a lot of people drawing civil service salaries and benefits whose sole responsibility is issuing and endorsing the said red, blue and white books who would have nothing to do, if they were scrapped. Indeed, in addition to the good lady Police Senior Sergeant Majors at CW, every police station in Bkk, if not in the entire country, has a policeman sitting in front of a sign that says Alien Registration, just waiting for aliens to come in to apply or do a 5-year endorsement for their red books.  I asked the one in my local cop shop how many aliens he had under his jurisdication and whether that was really all he did.  He confirmed that was really all he did and from his estimate of the number of aliens I calculated that he must be dealing with around three per week, spending 10-20 minutes on each - thus a maximum of one hour's work a week. I noticed that he was frequently out of the office which meant he was in the position to be doing another job. The police, which includes Immigration, will not give up these money for old rope jobs without a fight and they remain a very powerful political force that has successfully resisted all efforts to reform them even in the slightest degree.  So it is advisable to get used to the multicoloured books accept that the only escape from them will be either via a blue ID card or the temple brazier. Personally I chose the former and am very happy with that but I accept that route is not for everyone.

 

 

[onthemoon]

Thanks, @Arkady. That's what I meant. The first paragraph is very illustrative of the problem I addressed.

@scorecard No, this sub-thread isn't about the other books. I just added that, because there are more issues that need improvement. And you still cannot obtain the stamps at Suvarnabhumi, that's a fact. Sorry about that.

 

[Arkady]

2 hours ago, onthemoon said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "most other PR holders", though. Are you saying the Green Card holders in the US, or non-EU citizens who are PR holders in the EU need re-entry stamps before leaving the country? 

 

Although the multiple books and re-entry stamps are peculiar to Thailand, many countries have restrictions on the time PRs can be out of the country, which is effectively what Thailand's convoluted system is about. I don't know about EU countries but the UK definitely cancels PR for people who spend too much overseas and so does Australia, as I know  someone who lost Australian PR for that reason. US green card holders have return to the US at least once a year or lose their PR.

 

In the old days Thailand PR holders, who were 99%+ Chinese, were required to surrender their PR before going on a planned overseas visit (to China) for more than one year.  Since it was easy to get PR in those days, they could just re-apply, if they decided to come back to Thailand long term but this would be more difficult, if not impossible, if they had not properly surrendered their PR before leaving. The system was intended to keep track of aliens in the country, which would not have been effective without tracking departures and re-entries through the blue and white books, and it made sense the way it was applied in those days.  Basically what we have to day is the provision in the law to cancel PR without the easy means to get it back that existed when the original provision was drafted.

 

The red books may pre-date the original 1927 Immigration Act and certainly pre-dates the issuance of Thai ID cards and tabien baans which only happened in the early 1950s after the first national census. Thai authorities needed to track the large Chinese populations, some of whom were involved in criminal triad organisations.  So they made them register with police stations and carry large ID books around with them, as well as re-register with local cop shops whenever they were away from home for more than 24 hours. It's hard to imagine they run the place today!

[ubonjoe]

2 hours ago, onthemoon said:

Are you saying the Green Card holders in the US, or non-EU citizens who are PR holders in the EU need re-entry stamps before leaving the country? 

For the US a re-entry permit is needed if a permanent resident stays out of the country for more than a year. The fee is currently $660 if over 14 up to 79 years old. See: https://www.uscis.gov/i-131