Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[jelu77]

On 11/19/2019 at 12:11 PM, ubonjoe said:

You only have to be here once a year long enough to get a new non quota visa and re-entry permit.

You cannot be out of the country for longer than a year is the only requirement.

What about the blue house book registration requirement if you work abroad and plan to keep PR alive by visiting Thailand for the new non quota visa and re-entry permit once a year?

[ubonjoe]

41 minutes ago, jelu77 said:

What about the blue house book registration requirement if you work abroad and plan to keep PR alive by visiting Thailand for the new non quota visa and re-entry permit once a year?

You only have to do that once to get your Thai ID number. Once registered there is no need to do it again unless you want to change it to another house.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, jelu77 said:

What about the blue house book registration requirement if you work abroad and plan to keep PR alive by visiting Thailand for the new non quota visa and re-entry permit once a year?

  A bit further;

 

- Out of Thailand in one block period of 364 days and your PR is safe.

 

- Out of Thailand in one block period of 365 days or more and PR automatically cancels. 

 

 

[Arkady]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

  A bit further;

 

- Out of Thailand in one block period of 364 days and your PR is safe.

 

- Out of Thailand in one block period of 365 days or more and PR automatically cancels. 

 

 

The criterion is that you must leave and return to Thailand with a still valid re-entry endorsement. To stay out for 364 days, you need to get your new re-entry endorsement immediately before departure. No excuses are accepted for returning with an expired re-entry because it's in the Immigration Act. You just get stamped in on a transit visa, if your nationality qualifies.  If not, you may be denied entry.  But you are free to reapply once you meet the qualifications again without prejudice due to the fact that you gave up or lost your PR. 

[Bubbha]

 

4 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

  5 hours ago, jelu77 said:

What about the blue house book registration requirement if you work abroad and plan to keep PR alive by visiting Thailand for the new non quota visa and re-entry permit once a year?

 

4 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

You only have to do that once to get your Thai ID number. Once registered there is no need to do it again unless you want to change it to another house.

 

Is it not necessary to show your name in a blue house registration book for renewal of alien registration (red book) at your district police station every 5 years?

[Michael Hare]

6 minutes ago, Bubbha said:

 

 

 

Is it not necessary to show your name in a blue house registration book for renewal of alien registration (red book) at your district police station every 5 years?

No. Just show up with the red book and some photos. In the past, I brought everything I could think of with me, plus photocopies, just in case rules changed during the five years since the last visit.  Not necessary I was informed. That is in Ubon at the Ubon police station. 

[thedemon]

54 minutes ago, Michael Hare said:

No. Just show up with the red book and some photos. In the past, I brought everything I could think of with me, plus photocopies, just in case rules changed during the five years since the last visit.  Not necessary I was informed. That is in Ubon at the Ubon police station. 

The same for me. Not required by the police to renew my Alien Certificate.

 

But a Tabien Baan is required to issue a new Certificate of Residence at immigration.

[stbkk]

3 hours ago, thedemon said:

The same for me. Not required by the police to renew my Alien Certificate.

 

But a Tabien Baan is required to issue a new Certificate of Residence at immigration.

 Yes, when my blue book (the certificate of residence, to give it it's correct name!) was full I had to show the Tabian Baan to get the replacement (now a white book, confusingly).

[Alex19]

Happy New Year to everyone !

 

I would like to know from 2018 applicants if anyone already received news regarding their application ?

 

I submitted my application in November/December 2018, but a few documents were missing so I gave them early 2019.

Then the officer at immigration asked me for full 2018 tax receipts in April 2019. And a few more documents and pictures until July 2019.

 

To recent years applicants, how long did it take for you to receive the approval letter ?

 

Cheers

[SteveB2]

Hi Alex,

 

Based on your stated date of submission for your PR application pack and additional documents requested in April 2019, your PR application document pack is likely now going around all the ministries involved for approval and vetting. This process can take easily half a year.

 

It's a guess, but if all the ministries are now happy with your application, you'll be called back for batch interviews sometime in spring this year (March?).

 

Understand that the PR department does not process PR applications one at a time - everyone to be considered in one year’s intake, are processed at one time. Miss those interviews, and you get pushed back to the following year.

 

You can also call the lawyer helping you with your application to chat with the PR department to see how you application is coming along - perhaps they have called you to ask for more information and you missed the call.

 

It’s common to not get that much notice of being called to interview - in my instance, it was simply a Thai language phone call from an admin official at the CW PR department to the phone number listed on your application.

 

You may wish to answer daytime calls (Mon-Fri) quite promptly during the next few months.

[rimmae2]

12 hours ago, Alex19 said:

Happy New Year to everyone !

 

I would like to know from 2018 applicants if anyone already received news regarding their application ?

 

I submitted my application in November/December 2018, but a few documents were missing so I gave them early 2019.

Then the officer at immigration asked me for full 2018 tax receipts in April 2019. And a few more documents and pictures until July 2019.

 

To recent years applicants, how long did it take for you to receive the approval letter ?

 

Cheers

17 months several years ago but since then have known people who have received the letter quicker (still more than a year). If you have a reliable lawyer acting for you and not one who would request more money because he/she says more documents are required or to make things smoother/progress more quickly, then you could consider using that person to enquire. No harm in visiting the office yourself. Have you done the interview?

[jayboy]

13 hours ago, SteveB2 said:

Based on your stated date of submission for your PR application pack and additional documents requested in April 2019, your PR application document pack is likely now going around all the ministries involved for approval and vetting. This process can take easily half a year

Does it go round all the ministries? My understanding was that after Immigration had completed its work only the MInistry of the Interior was involved.

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

Does it go round all the ministries? My understanding was that after Immigration had completed its work only the MInistry of the Interior was involved.

The files don’t go around all the ministries but various ministries and government agencies send representatives to the Immigration Commission which reviews applications, as stipulated in the Immigration Act, after Immigration and the MoI have vetted them. These departments get to see the files in advance and can query things and ask for more information, if they are interested.

[Alex19]

Thank you all for your comments !

I did the interview in April 2019. Went quite well, even had a thumb up from one officer. (Well prepared, the questions are quite easy to answer)

 

I did the process by myself with great help from a friend, HR and Finance managers at my company and somehow the officer at CW too, without hiring a lawyer. I regretted this quite soon after started the process..

 

Out of curiosity, without citing names, how much does a law firm approximately charges for the services ? (If I get rejected this time I'll for sure hire one next time)

 

I've been asked by the CW IO at almost each of my ~10 visits for a "support" (I guess you'll catch the meaning). Process was surprisingly similar to the market, but never gave anything. I worry this could generate a delay. Have anyone here ever experience such requests ?

[mortenaa]

11 minutes ago, Alex19 said:

Thank you all for your comments !

I did the interview in April 2019. Went quite well, even had a thumb up from one officer. (Well prepared, the questions are quite easy to answer)

 

I did the process by myself with great help from a friend, HR and Finance managers at my company and somehow the officer at CW too, without hiring a lawyer. I regretted this quite soon after started the process..

 

Out of curiosity, without citing names, how much does a law firm approximately charges for the services ? (If I get rejected this time I'll for sure hire one next time)

 

I've been asked by the CW IO at almost each of my ~10 visits for a "support" (I guess you'll catch the meaning). Process was surprisingly similar to the market, but never gave anything. I worry this could generate a delay. Have anyone here ever experience such requests ?

I've heard everything from 300K to half a mill. I had my staff do it for me. She has done all our dealings with immigration, WP, revenue dep etc for the last 13 years. All the paperwork was flawless. I'm sure we could accommodate you for a more friendly fee ???? 

[rimmae2]

1 hour ago, Alex19 said:

Thank you all for your comments !

I did the interview in April 2019. Went quite well, even had a thumb up from one officer. (Well prepared, the questions are quite easy to answer)

 

I did the process by myself with great help from a friend, HR and Finance managers at my company and somehow the officer at CW too, without hiring a lawyer. I regretted this quite soon after started the process..

 

Out of curiosity, without citing names, how much does a law firm approximately charges for the services ? (If I get rejected this time I'll for sure hire one next time)

 

I've been asked by the CW IO at almost each of my ~10 visits for a "support" (I guess you'll catch the meaning). Process was surprisingly similar to the market, but never gave anything. I worry this could generate a delay. Have anyone here ever experience such requests ?

I went once to apply, once for the interview and once when I was approved. However, I used my Employer's lawyer, who I had known for many years, out of convenience to a large extent, as I was travelling overseas a lot. As such, he and junior staff followed things up, but no additional documents were required to be submitted. Once I was asked for some support to accelerate approval, but not to obtain approval.

 

I think that if you have made 10 visits (alone or not alone) then something would help.

[Michael Hare]

I did my PR way back in 2002. I did everything myself. I live in Ubon, and so I had to fly down down from Ubon for the interviews. I did day trips. The first interview and application was by myself. In the second interview they wanted my wife to be present as I was applying under the category of having a Thai spouse. The third interview was the language test and fingerprinting. The last visit was the final signing of documents and getting my little blue book. I was never asked for support. In total four visits. Whole process took two and half years. 

[Arkady]

I did in it in 1996 without using a lawyer and was never asked for any "support" but did get stonewalled for a bit because I worked for rep office at the time, which was not permitted by Immigration secret internal rules, although there was nothing against it in the Immigration Act or any ministerial orders. The officer told me I would need to get a testimonial from a puu yai, if I wanted to continue with the application.  So I ran around for a few weeks and got one from a Pol Maj Gen at Immigration and from one of the assistant directors at the National Intelligence Agency which is one of the agencies represented on the Immigration Commission. This insured that I got through Immigration's internal committee, despite not meeting their internal regulations, and through the Immigration Commission.  Both of these kind gentlemen were introduced to me by business connections and neither asked for any support. The following year we closed our rep office and bought into a Thai company.  So I could have done it without the hassle a year later but i didn't know that was going to happen at the time.  

 

The requests for "support" sound worrying.  The system worked well for applicants until the first Thaksin regime came to power.  In my time applications were processed within 12 months.  Then Thaksin's first interior minister, a controversial character who had a house and possibly permanent residence in New Zealand where he sent his kids to school, started questioning the qualifications of applicants and falsely accused Immigration of taking bribes to let in people who weren't qualified. He was just trying to grab attention by hitting on defenseless foreigners and playing the xenophobia political card like Trump.  The result was than many applicants were rejected for spurious reasons although most were able to reapply after the minister had fallen out of favour with Thaksin and been purged. But the legacy of the false accusations of bribery was the whole process started to stagnate and take years.  Everyone was too scared to ask for a bribe and thought the safest thing was never to sign anything, specially if there was no way to get paid for it.  PR applications started to take an average of 5 years and many took up to 8 years.

 

Fast forward to the 2014 coup and Interior Minister Anuphong's Good Guys In, Bad Guys Out policy.  Fires were lit under the derrieres of officials in Immigration and the Interior Ministry.  The backlog of PR (and citizenship) applications was passed through within several months of the coup. The process was streamlined back to more or less what it had been until the 90s and some applications were taking only 10 months.  The appearance of requests by junior officials for "support" seems to be a very bad sign that political government is back, even though Anuphong is still at the Interior Ministry.  Once he moves on from there anything could happen.  The track to PR (and citizenship) that he cut through the bureaucratic jungle could get grown over again very quickly. 

[onthemoon]

I did mine by myself. I don't remember how many times I went, but I don't think it was more than 2-3 times, once for each step. If you had to go 10 times, you may not have followed the requirements exactly. You don't need a lawyer for that - just read the list carefully and comply. That's all.

 

I heard that lawyers take THB 100,000 (that was the going rate at the time; 40,000 up front and 60,000 upon completion) and then claim they have to pay "support", so the amount increases. I was never asked for "support" and always thought the "support" is their (the lawyers') extra income. 

[Arkady]

2 hours ago, onthemoon said:

I did mine by myself. I don't remember how many times I went, but I don't think it was more than 2-3 times, once for each step. If you had to go 10 times, you may not have followed the requirements exactly. You don't need a lawyer for that - just read the list carefully and comply. That's all.

 

I heard that lawyers take THB 100,000 (that was the going rate at the time; 40,000 up front and 60,000 upon completion) and then claim they have to pay "support", so the amount increases. I was never asked for "support" and always thought the "support" is their (the lawyers') extra income. 

That's what I have always assumed too. At first I thought I needed a lawyer but couldn't find one who knew anything about the process. If you get requests for squeeze from your lawyer, you will never know if any of it was passed on. A decent lawyer should be able to assist with preparing the mountain of paperwork though, if you are too busy to do that.

[onthemoon]

7 minutes ago, Arkady said:

That's what I have always assumed too. At first I thought I needed a lawyer but couldn't find one who knew anything about the process. If you get requests for squeeze from your lawyer, you will never know if any of it was passed on. A decent lawyer should be able to assist with preparing the mountain of paperwork though, if you are too busy to do that.

I'm not sure how the lawyer can assist. He cannot get the PND91 for you or your police record or company records whatever. All he can do is check with the list that you get from Immigration whether all documents are complete. And if not, ask you to bring the missing docs.

[mortenaa]

4 hours ago, onthemoon said:

I did mine by myself. I don't remember how many times I went, but I don't think it was more than 2-3 times, once for each step. If you had to go 10 times, you may not have followed the requirements exactly. You don't need a lawyer for that - just read the list carefully and comply. That's all.

 

I heard that lawyers take THB 100,000 (that was the going rate at the time; 40,000 up front and 60,000 upon completion) and then claim they have to pay "support", so the amount increases. I was never asked for "support" and always thought the "support" is their (the lawyers') extra income. 

For 100K, no lawyer would even bother. 

[mortenaa]

1 hour ago, onthemoon said:

I'm not sure how the lawyer can assist. He cannot get the PND91 for you or your police record or company records whatever. All he can do is check with the list that you get from Immigration whether all documents are complete. And if not, ask you to bring the missing docs.

Of course a lawyer can acquire all the documents needed. Then Translation, certification of all documents etc. Its a huge task.

[rimmae2]

8 hours ago, Arkady said:

I did in it in 1996 without using a lawyer and was never asked for any "support" but did get stonewalled for a bit because I worked for rep office at the time, which was not permitted by Immigration secret internal rules, although there was nothing against it in the Immigration Act or any ministerial orders. The officer told me I would need to get a testimonial from a puu yai, if I wanted to continue with the application.  So I ran around for a few weeks and got one from a Pol Maj Gen at Immigration and from one of the assistant directors at the National Intelligence Agency which is one of the agencies represented on the Immigration Commission. This insured that I got through Immigration's internal committee, despite not meeting their internal regulations, and through the Immigration Commission.  Both of these kind gentlemen were introduced to me by business connections and neither asked for any support. The following year we closed our rep office and bought into a Thai company.  So I could have done it without the hassle a year later but i didn't know that was going to happen at the time.  

 

The requests for "support" sound worrying.  The system worked well for applicants until the first Thaksin regime came to power.  In my time applications were processed within 12 months.  Then Thaksin's first interior minister, a controversial character who had a house and possibly permanent residence in New Zealand where he sent his kids to school, started questioning the qualifications of applicants and falsely accused Immigration of taking bribes to let in people who weren't qualified. He was just trying to grab attention by hitting on defenseless foreigners and playing the xenophobia political card like Trump.  The result was than many applicants were rejected for spurious reasons although most were able to reapply after the minister had fallen out of favour with Thaksin and been purged. But the legacy of the false accusations of bribery was the whole process started to stagnate and take years.  Everyone was too scared to ask for a bribe and thought the safest thing was never to sign anything, specially if there was no way to get paid for it.  PR applications started to take an average of 5 years and many took up to 8 years.

 

Fast forward to the 2014 coup and Interior Minister Anuphong's Good Guys In, Bad Guys Out policy.  Fires were lit under the derrieres of officials in Immigration and the Interior Ministry.  The backlog of PR (and citizenship) applications was passed through within several months of the coup. The process was streamlined back to more or less what it had been until the 90s and some applications were taking only 10 months.  The appearance of requests by junior officials for "support" seems to be a very bad sign that political government is back, even though Anuphong is still at the Interior Ministry.  Once he moves on from there anything could happen.  The track to PR (and citizenship) that he cut through the bureaucratic jungle could get grown over again very quickly. 

When I stated "Once I was asked for some support to accelerate approval, but not to obtain approval.", more than likely the request came from and was on behalf of lawyer, who I would not have used had I not been travelling so much.  

 

Re "I think that if you have made 10 visits (alone or not alone) then something would help." I was not suggesting support would help, purely that after so many visits it should be clear if there is/are some document(s) missing and possible in some way to find out what the problem is.

 

[stbkk]

My direct personal experience (as previously documented on this thread, sorry I can't be bothered to go back and find the exact posts), admittedly from a number of years ago (most recent application was made in 2008) is as follows:

 

I know personally a total of 5 PR's (including myself), and what happened was this:

 

3 did their own applications 100% without the aid of anybody other than wife/own company support. None of these were asked for any 'support'.
 

2 had their applications processed largely for them by lawyers/agents provided by their companies. (Big international companies, in both cases). Both of these paid substantial additional sums to the lawyers/agents which may or may not have been passed on further up the food chain.

 

Worrying if personal applications are now being hit upon also.

[Dogmatix]

I have not heard of people making multiple visits to Immigration once their applications were filed. I was asked to go there twice to verbally give them information that was largely already in their file but that was before there was a test or a panel interview. Friends who have applied more recently have had to go 2 or 3 times including the interview. The only person I know that used a lawyer had his application messed up so badly by the lawyer that he got rejected and he was so disappointed that he left Thailand.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Dogmatix

[Dogmatix]

Never heard of anyone being directly asked for bribes by Immigration for PR. By all accounts these requests seem to have come exclusively from lawyers/agents who may have pocketed the bribes for themselves. I agree that, if they have suddenly now become brazen enough to ask for cash or gifts from individual applicants, particularly given the current regime at the Interior Ministry, which has done its utmost since 2014 to streamline the process, it would be a worrying sign indeed. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Dogmatix

[beeper]

I know of several cases where applicants not using lawyer where asked for”tang duang” to facililitate/accelerate the process. They settled at around 30k each.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, beeper said:

I know of several cases where applicants not using lawyer where asked for”tang duang” to facililitate/accelerate the process. They settled at around 30k each.

Strange. Anything is possible, of course. Seems to me that if the officers concerned decided to try for 'tea money', they would more likely target lawyers rather then actual applicants.

 

Why, overall the ethics of Thai lawyers is way less than .clean', therefore is there a case to say officers would appraoch lawyers looking for a 'partnership' to gather 'tea money'. 

 

As said, anything is possible.

 

I got PR more than 2 decades back, I used an agent who I personally knew very well (he's not a lawyer) there was no suggestion whatever at any stage from my agent or from the offficer when I had the interview of 'smoothing the wheels'.

 

 

[Arkady]

6 hours ago, beeper said:

I know of several cases where applicants not using lawyer where asked for”tang duang” to facililitate/accelerate the process. They settled at around 30k each.

So, in fact, the officers at CW are more likely to retard applications of those who don't pay by holding back files, since they have no power to accelerate things within the Immigration hierarchy, being only sergeants and sergeant majors, and 30k woudn't move the needle anyway, let alone at the MoI where the decisions are made.  Asking applicants for dash directly seems to be further evidence of the return to democracy in its Thai incarnation, although more recent elected governments confined themselves to simply blocking PR and citizenship applications indefinitely as they didn't dare take the risk of openly asking foreigners for bribes and refused to sign anything they couldn't get paid for.  Perhaps this can be seen as an evolution of Thai democracy which at least allows things to get done and an embracement of foreigners as equal to Thais who don't make a fuss when asked for bribes.  If so, expect to see in the fullness of time demands for much larger amounts of cash from those who actually have power in the process with applications from cheap charlies left gathering dust in bottom drawers.