Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[trajan]

one thing that I still don't understand.....I am allowed to live in Thailand permanently under my Permanent Residence Certificate book, BUT I'm not allowed to work and earn a living without special permission, which must be renewed annually (in the form of a Work Permit).....this is VERY strange to me.....

I can understand why a person with a non-immigrant or non-resident visa needs a Work Permit to work in Thailand, but a Permanent Resident?? can someone explain that to me because I seem to have missed something....

[trajan]

The PR visa is available to 100 applicant for each nationality

If you're UK citizen then it might be hard.

Irish less so

Iceland now we're in the running

guatemalan a lock if you can pass all the huddles

the 100 person quota per country seems to be completely irrelevant because few people seem apply from any country....

Edited September 16, 2006 by trajan

[camerata]

IF you get the interview questions wrong, does that mean you dont get approved ?

The Thai language test is multiple choice so you should get 25% of it right even if you know nothing! Anyway, it's only one part of the overall process. I doubt anyone would be rejected for doing badly in the language test if they scored well in the other parts.

[camerata]

I can understand why a person with a non-immigrant or non-resident visa needs a Work Permit to work in Thailand, but a Permanent Resident?? can someone explain that to me because I seem to have missed something....

The underlying principle of the work permit system is that jobs for foreigners should be those which Thais can't do. If PR holders didn't need a work permit it would give them the same rights as Thais, or at least similar rights. I don't think they want us being taxi drivers, for example.

[skippybangkok]

Whats going on with this years PR round. It seems that there was a meeting last week, and everyone was told to do another police security check. In my case, got some family to submit documents to police in home country who verified Mr X has no record. Now they want us to go to our country for a finger print verification ?

Would appreciate updates from others and how they handle it. Dont fancy getting on a plane.

Edited September 16, 2006 by skippybangkok

[Tywais]

Whats going on with this years PR round. It seems that there was a meeting last week, and everyone was told to do another police security check. In my case, got some family to submit documents to police in home country who verified Mr X has no record. Now they want us to go to our country for a finger print verification ?

Would appreciate updates from others and how they handle it. Dont fancy getting on a plane.

I believe that is indicated in the requirements somewhere (fingerprints). I'm preparing mine (fingerprints & background check) now to send to the FBI in the US (not necessary to travel back), don't know what country you are from but they prefer a federal agency to do the background checks.

[camerata]

Now they want us to go to our country for a finger print verification ?

Did they require, or did your home country's police require, a set of fingerprints for the criminal record check? If they didn't, maybe they are trying to standardize the process and have everyone do it. But it shouldn't be necessary to leave Thailand for this.

If the problem is that your country's police can't be sure the fingerprints you sent are actually yours, one would think all they have to do is send them back and let the Thai authorities verify that they are. So, in effect, the foreign police say "these fingerprints have no record" and the Thai police verify that they are yours. Or would that be too logical for them...?

[skippybangkok]

They did. Obviously its something new. Some one told me ( not sure how true ) that one of the applicants got a clean letter, but then it turned out that his / her finger prints turned up a "positive" Now they are sending everyone for a check. I am from Oz, not sure what to do next. I guess if the prints can be taken by the embassy to ensure that i am me, and then send them to Oz to check, it should suffice?

Edited September 16, 2006 by skippybangkok

[trajan]

I can understand why a person with a non-immigrant or non-resident visa needs a Work Permit to work in Thailand, but a Permanent Resident?? can someone explain that to me because I seem to have missed something....

The underlying principle of the work permit system is that jobs for foreigners should be those which Thais can't do. If PR holders didn't need a work permit it would give them the same rights as Thais, or at least similar rights. I don't think they want us being taxi drivers, for example.

well I guess that is my point...

a. if I am granted permanent residence status for the rest of my life....why would I still be restricted in how I earn a living (on the same basis as a Thai passport holder? as long as it was legal) and

b. if I were nevertheless legally restricted in what areas I could work (because I do not hold a Thai passport), as a permanent resident, why would I need an annual work permit for the permitted areas I am allowed to work in? an annual confirmation that I am following the labor regulations does not make sense (for example, I do not need to submit an annual confirmation that I have not broken any other laws laws (civil or criminal) or robbed any banks during the past year)....

Edited September 17, 2006 by trajan

[Arsenal]

I can understand why a person with a non-immigrant or non-resident visa needs a Work Permit to work in Thailand, but a Permanent Resident?? can someone explain that to me because I seem to have missed something....

The underlying principle of the work permit system is that jobs for foreigners should be those which Thais can't do. If PR holders didn't need a work permit it would give them the same rights as Thais, or at least similar rights. I don't think they want us being taxi drivers, for example.

Trajan makes a valid point since the Alien Business Law already restricts the jobs that foreigners (including holders of PR) may take.Thus Camerata's taxi driver example is not really valid.It would in my view be logical for holders of PR to be exempted from obtaining work permits, subject of course to the provisions and restrictions of the Alien Business Law.But of course it will never happen in Thailand.

Edited September 17, 2006 by Arsenal

[camerata]

a. if I am granted permanent residence status for the rest of my life....why would I still be restricted in how I earn a living (on the same basis as a Thai passport holder? as long as it was legal) and

Because you aren't a Thai passport holder. A passport and freedom to work anywhere are two of the benefits of Thai citizenship. But for citizenship there's another approval process and more fees to be paid.

b. if I were nevertheless legally restricted in what areas I could work (because I do not hold a Thai passport), as a permanent resident, why would I need an annual work permit for the permitted areas I am allowed to work in? an annual confirmation that I am following the labor regulations does not make sense (for example, I do not need to submit an annual confirmation that I have not broken any other laws laws (civil or criminal) or robbed any banks during the past year)....

I think the work permit scheme is simply a good way to control foreigners and make sure they don't do the jobs that are prohibited to them. The government can hardly expect employers to know which jobs are prohibited and which can or can't be done by a Thai. The strange thing is that Thailand used to issue lifetime work permits back in the 60s, probably to PR holders.

[camerata]

I guess if the prints can be taken by the embassy to ensure that i am me, and then send them to Oz to check, it should suffice?

As far as I know, most embassies don't take fingerprints.

[Tywais]

I guess if the prints can be taken by the embassy to ensure that i am me, and then send them to Oz to check, it should suffice?

As far as I know, most embassies don't take fingerprints.

Most police stations will have the cards and a fingerprint technician that can do it for you. May have to write in english where the written Thai says Left, Right, etc. Also check whatever federal agency in Australia has a website and perhaps information on procedures for a security check. I was able to get all the forms, including the fingerprint card, from the FBI site for US citizens.

[trajan]

I can understand why a person with a non-immigrant or non-resident visa needs a Work Permit to work in Thailand, but a Permanent Resident?? can someone explain that to me because I seem to have missed something....

The underlying principle of the work permit system is that jobs for foreigners should be those which Thais can't do. If PR holders didn't need a work permit it would give them the same rights as Thais, or at least similar rights. I don't think they want us being taxi drivers, for example.

Trajan makes a valid point since the Alien Business Law already restricts the jobs that foreigners (including holders of PR) may take.Thus Camerata's taxi driver example is not really valid.It would in my view be logical for holders of PR to be exempted from obtaining work permits, subject of course to the provisions and restrictions of the Alien Business Law.But of course it will never happen in Thailand.

thanks Arsenal, you got my point exactly...I was also thinking of the ABL (in addition to Labour/Labor laws)....

it reminds me of the time I attended a large joint chambers of commerce meeting (I believe it was at the Erawan Hyatt or the Regent Hotel--now Four Seasons) with a panel of government representatives (including cabinet Ministers and I believe a few Director-Generals)...questions were invited from the audience (as long as you identified yourself and your company) and a senior executive of a very established multi-national company stood up and asked the same question (why work permits are required of PR holders) and the Minister of Labour and Social Welfare (now I believe simply the Minister of Labour because of govt re-structuring) couldnt really answer the question....

at the time I thought it was an odd question, but now I know why that executive asked the question because it applies to me now...

later a Thai lawyer at an international law firm explained to me that there is really no logic in continuing to require annual work permits of permanent residents, but in practice each Ministry is a separate fiefdom (with permanent entrenched bureacracies, but rotating politicians at the top) with very poor coordination with the rest of govt...so the Department of Employment under the Ministry of Labour jealously guards its turf and the Immigration Bureau under the Prime Minister's Office? guards its turf... if that is the real reason, I would say that's rather feeble to say the least....

having said that, my lawyer who takes care of my work permit said its "easier" to get a work permit if you have a PR, but Im not sure I quite understand that because I have to continue to provide the full panoply of supporting documents at each annual renewal of my work permit...

in any event, I will continue to get my annual multiple re-entry endorsement in my now white PR book (I already filled-up my blue book with entry and exit stamps), my annual endorsement/visa? in my passport, my annual renewal of my work permit and my 5 year re-endorsement in my giant red book .....with no hope of stream-lining the process or even getting a residence card (which would make it feasible to carry as ID)....

[trajan]

I think the work permit scheme is simply a good way to control foreigners and make sure they don't do the jobs that are prohibited to them. The government can hardly expect employers to know which jobs are prohibited and which can or can't be done by a Thai. The strange thing is that Thailand used to issue lifetime work permits back in the 60s, probably to PR holders.

sorry camerata, but I dont quite follow you (in the context of work permits for PR holders)... all employers who employ foreigners are required/responsible to be familiar with the work permit laws and the parameters of the prohibited professions etc. (whether each complies or not is a different question)....but that's OK, I will continue to get my work permit renewed annually....

thanks for your great synopsis on the process (unfortunately I got my PR previous to your great guidance, but the lawyers made it as painless as possible)...

yes, I am very aware of the lifetime work permit holders from the 60's/early 70's...I spoke to 2 of them about my question...

Edited September 17, 2006 by trajan

[camerata]

sorry camerata, but I dont quite follow you (in the context of work permits for PR holders)... all employers who employ foreigners are required/responsible to be familiar with the work permit laws and the parameters of the prohibited professions etc. (whether each complies or not is a different question

I think that is the whole point. As we can see with traffic regulations, when there is no effective means of enforcement the result is large-scale non-compliance. But I wasn't thinking only of the relatively few prohibited occupations. The Ministry of Labour wants to have an easy method of controlling if and when any foreigner is allowed to compete with a Thai for any job at all, because the need for certain skills changes over the years.

I've heard that it's easier for PR holders to get a new work permit. I don't think this means less paperwork. I think it means they are less likely to turn us down because "a Thai can do the job." This seems to be at the whim of the officer dealing with the application. I've had one work permit rejected for this reason and another two approved only after some negotiation and changing the job title into something concerning use of the English language. I would hope they aren't so finicky with PR holders.

Sunbelt Asia used to have a page implying that some requirements could be waived for PR holders, but I can't find it now.

[skippybangkok]

Well, if you weren't a criminal before this process, you most likley will become one because of it.

1. AFPsite horrendously slow ( when it works of course , which is seldom )

2. There is some basic info on the cost of a finger print check, but not how to freaking do it from 5000 miles away

3. Embassy ( both consular and AFP ) pretty hopeless too ( very good at saying " we dont do it"- seems to be standard On-job-training when u get a job with the Govt. )

http://www.afp.gov.au/business/criminal_history_checks

[skippybangkok]

this is the only form.... where and how to get a finger print check is anyones guess. Will call Oz tomorrow, stay tuned

http://www.afp.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/3683/crim01.pdf

[camerata]

this is the only form.... where and how to get a finger print check is anyones guess. Will call Oz tomorrow, stay tuned

http://www.afp.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/3683/crim01.pdf

I think I misunderstood your earlier posts. If you didn't send your fingerprints to the AFP before, you definitely need to. The fingerprints can be taken free of charge at Room 301, Suan Phlu Immigration office. The officer who does them is called Phaisarn. You send the set of fingerprints and the form to the AFP with payment etc and they send back a certificate.

[skippybangkok]

Thanks a gazillion. Becoming clearer now. I know the guy i think, nice old guy who does this for 20+ years. Question:- how do they ensure the linkage with my name and the finger prints. For example ( playing devils advocate ), you could take the forms, print ur buddy fingers and put ur name on it. Is there any sign off ? If not, fine by me (make things simpler ) but kinda defeats the purpose really ? Will go do it tomorrow and go for round 2. I guess this is one of the "tick the box" processes ?

Thx.

[Tywais]

how do they ensure the linkage with my name and the finger prints. For example ( playing devils advocate ), you could take the forms, print ur buddy fingers and put ur name on it. Is there any sign off ?

When my position changed at the university to permanent staff they (police came to the uni) did my fingerprints. The card was signed by the official and his position. Of course that could be forged, then you will have a criminal record.

[camerata]

Question:- how do they ensure the linkage with my name and the finger prints. For example ( playing devils advocate ), you could take the forms, print ur buddy fingers and put ur name on it. Is there any sign off ?

Yes. It is a standard fingerprint card. You produce your passport and the officer writes your info on the card. You send the card to the AFP with a copy of your passport. It's not foolproof, but Immigration seems happy with it. You then get the criminal record check report and have it certified by your embassy.

[skippybangkok]

LOL.... ok..... so they are the signatories.......

Thanks guys for the help. Will dawdle on down there tomorrow and get my fingers black for the second time. I guess i can use that AFP form with the prints.

Will try to check with AFP once more before sending all the stuff. I am a real fan of all this paper work stuff ( nope ). I hope it ends in the expected result.

[skippybangkok]

p.s. Glad this is now in the forum, atleast others who follow in our trail can figure out the steps required.

Edited September 18, 2006 by skippybangkok

[Maizefarmer]

Yes - they are more "easy going" towards PR's when it comes to processing work permitts for us/them - whether thats formal or not I dont know, but after a few years you'll find things tend move forward smoothly and as a matter of default.

They are sick of seeing my face now for the last 20 years - its become a standing joke to tease me every time to get Thai citizenship or get out.

When I became a monk (which I did for 18 months many many years ago), the old guy who handles my renewal everytime was most confused as he had got my work permitt renewal down to a fine art. He was pleased I had taken up the monkhood, but wasn't quite sure what to do. He really didn't want the hassle, so asked me rhetorically (against all good Bhuddist rules), " you're not going to be doing this for long are you??". I assured him not. He processed my WP as if nothing had changed, and the following year I was back in civvie clothes.

I know of 2 guys (and there may be more...) who are PR's on the strength of been long time monks. One left the monkhood about 7 years after getting PR (by which time he had been a monk for nearly 20 years). He retained his PR status and when he went to get a work permitt, was asked what he intended to do. He didn't know, and was quite worried that he would find himself in a corner i.e. not qualified to do anything that would entitle him to a work permitt. He was told that as he was a PR - and that that wouyld not be taken away from him (its a serious doc that - once you have it, you have it for life - unless you really step out of line big time - even if its criminal it would have to be something quite serious for you to have your residancy status revoked - he could do whatever he wanted, it would be approved.

Ultimately he started an orphanage for street children, but I havent a clue what was written in his blue book.

Moral of story - anything is possible - just tow the line.

Tim

sorry camerata, but I dont quite follow you (in the context of work permits for PR holders)... all employers who employ foreigners are required/responsible to be familiar with the work permit laws and the parameters of the prohibited professions etc. (whether each complies or not is a different question

I think that is the whole point. As we can see with traffic regulations, when there is no effective means of enforcement the result is large-scale non-compliance. But I wasn't thinking only of the relatively few prohibited occupations. The Ministry of Labour wants to have an easy method of controlling if and when any foreigner is allowed to compete with a Thai for any job at all, because the need for certain skills changes over the years.

I've heard that it's easier for PR holders to get a new work permit. I don't think this means less paperwork. I think it means they are less likely to turn us down because "a Thai can do the job." This seems to be at the whim of the officer dealing with the application. I've had one work permit rejected for this reason and another two approved only after some negotiation and changing the job title into something concerning use of the English language. I would hope they aren't so finicky with PR holders.

Sunbelt Asia used to have a page implying that some requirements could be waived for PR holders, but I can't find it now.

Edited September 21, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[camerata]

He retained his PR status and when he went to get a work permitt, was asked what he intended to do. He didn't know, and was quite worried that he would find himself in a corner i.e. not qualified to do anything that would entitle him to a work permitt. He was told that as he was a PR ... he could do whatever he wanted, it would be approved.

That's good to know. Presumably he didn't actually get a work permit until he'd found himself a job? How long ago was this?

[Maizefarmer]

Correct - he only got it "stamped & entered" once he had settled back down into civvy life and had his feet on the ground - during which time he lived off and was sponosered by Thai's who had supported him while he was a monk, and who helped him financially get the street kid shelter up and running.

This was in 1996-7, so he got his PR around 1989-90, and had been here since 1976.

Tim

[sabaijai]

Is there any indication whether the current political situation will affect applications for PR this coming December?

[Tywais]

Is there any indication whether the current political situation will affect applications for PR this coming December?

I'm very interested in the answer to that also.

[krismat89]

Is there any indication whether the current political situation will affect applications for PR this coming December?

Would suggest that you contact Immigration directly or maybe via their website.

Pop along to Suan Plu Immigration Bureau to floor 2 room 201. Resident Permit application centre.