Retirement tailored living

[mccw]

Hi
I have been giving thought to this demographic of the Chiang Mai population for some time and now due to my own parents experiences here and also viewing years of Thai Visa forum.

A few challenges keep recurring; property ownership, management, neighbours, nuisance, medical and visa issues and challenges of transport and making friends. All of these things can be dealt with happily individually or with specialist help or concerted effort. But I have been thinking how to make life easier all at one go.

I wonder if people would be interested in a condo community with specific extra tailored facilities and services; such as an on site 24 hour nurses trained for emergency response or on call in case of accident, visiting or permanent doctors clinic, prescription management and delivery to room; visa assistance/ reminders to your door.
I am not talking about home care / nursing home. I am thinking just a place with a good extra service.

In addition to this I wonder why all condos (full foreign ownership) must be built as towers on tiny land?
Even the condos out side town are towers on small land mostly.
How about a horizontal condo of only 2 levels; set over say 20rai.
And rather than only park land how about addressing another human need- good cheap, healthy and sustainable food. The space between buildings could be organic orchard and growing vegetables that could be free for residents.
Free breakfast daily maybe. With free fresh fruit baskets delivered to the room in the after noon.

Around these grounds could be pedestrianised walking and cycling tracks.
Also all facilities one would expect of a quality project such as pools, tennis, gym, maybe a residents lounge with games, snooker.
Perhaps an on site spa
And a sala for classes such as meditation, yoga, tai chi and such.
But rather than leave the project after two years like most developers I thought best to keep continue with professional management for ever by incorporating a serviced apartment element (still on the same demographic) which would ensure up keep and all grounds and facilities properly managed as it affects their biz and so want everything kept on top of spik n span. Western service and management style I mean.

Maybe organise optional social and charitable activities for residents; like helping in local community in some ways or joining or forming clubs of interest.

The idea being to build a real community of residents rather than just another condo block where people don't know each and most of the rooms are empty.

I met a guy who drank a lot on my recent visa run; and when I asked why drink beer ever single day he said because it's lonely sitting at home watching TV alone and he liked the company of other falangs. So I thinking how nice it would be to have a healthy active community like the above with activities where it's not just centre around drinking or eating.

Of course people love to eat so I thought how about having a great couple restaurants on site too. Like Dukes or Ragu quality rather than the moo baan style mom n pop set up (nice as they can be too some times).

Also being on such a large plot would mean 120% parking spaces possible.
But out side town a bit to enable such a large land. However for those not wanting to drive the condo could provide a shuttle buss service in to and around town and back. So residents could easily live by foot and bike if they chose. I guess about a 20-30 minute bus ride.

So I ask CM forum people on or in this bracket - what are your thoughts?
Would this option be appealing option you would consider as a buyer or renter or you would feel too much stigma like a care home, even though it isn't.
Personally I will like a time when not disturbed by noisy kids, neighbours dogs etc.
being on a large plot would insulate people from the dogs, babies, karaoke, village PA etc. but still all facilities and access as could require and more.

Oh yeah , naturally need a grocery and general store, Delhi on site too , like a tops type Rimping.

For this location the best place would be next to the national park on an elevated position with sunset and mountain views, surrounded by nature and national park up the road; so fresh air, peace and quiet- a little cooler too even.

How do think?

Thanks for sharing in put

[mccw]

I request the casual viewers but rare posters to slip me a comment too please; like a poll no need to lists of detail if not bothered; just type either :
"Yes" I would live in such a place
Or "no" I would not.

Thanks in advance

[mccw]

Are there any other things you would add to make the dream living place?

How about an art gallery?
Self select cinema?
Library?

[mesquite]

I live in a rented room in the old city.  To me the whole area is like one big assisted living facility, except not depressing.  The people where I live will help me out.  Plenty of restaurants, food, movies, massages, medical care, fun times close by.  Meals on Wheels delivers if I want to eat in my room.

 

One problem with assisted living facilities in the traditional sense is that everyone there is old.  You get to watch your neighbors die.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FolkGuitar]

This type of living space is very popular in South Florida, with multi-unit two-story buildings surrounding central recreation facilities, Pool, snack bar, tennis courts, Rec Hall, library, dinning hall (although each condo apartment has its own kitchen,) etc. There are planned events several days a week for those who wish to join, week-end excursions to a variety of locations (my mother's association ran trips to the Bahamas for gambling, evenings at 'Chippendale's for the ladies, museum tours, cultural expos, etc. While she was alive, these activities helped keep her involved with living rather than sitting around waiting to die.)  There was a full-time nurse on staff and a doctor on call 24/7. There was a shuttle bus to a huge shopping mall early in the morning so the old folks could 'Mall Walk' for exercise in air/con comfort before the shops opened and the mall became too crowded for comfortable walking. (Many of the malls have distance-marked walking routes and convenient benches for resting.) Another shuttle bus made a circuit of the local area, including that mall a few times a day. No need for a personal car unless desired. Housekeeping services, meal delivery service, daily health check-in if needed, and plenty of company if desired, or privacy if wanted.

 

There are many advantages to this sort of living for older folks. There are also disadvantages too. Some people want more privacy than this sort of lifestyle offers. There is plenty of back-stabbing, gossiping, cliques, and always the 'one' really nasty person that everyone wants to avoid. But these go on in any closed community, be it a moo bahn, a bar scene, or a condo building. For many people, the advantages out-weigh the negatives. It's an excellent alternative life-style for someone who is less than 100% mobile.

 

 

[NancyL]

mesquite is right -- many people have already created this type of environment of themselves. They live in a rented room, condo or serviced apartment either in the old city or along Huey Kaew between Kad Suan Kaew and Maya Mall. They know lots of people in their building and neighborhood. They can walk to the cinema, restaurants, grocery stores, spas, beauty and barber shops, etc. People help them. For leisure activity they can go to quiz nights at a pub, or daytime activities like bridge club, computer club, hiking club.

Where I think there is a more realistic business opportunity is for someone to purchase some condo units in one of the older buildings, like Nakorn Ping or Srithana, refurbish them to be handicap and senior friendly with emergency call buttons, easy-entry showers, grab bars in the toilets, etc. Have 24 hr assistance available in the building to respond to a call button, to help someone who has fallen. That same assistant can stop by daily to check blood pressure and that the client has taken medications appropriately.

I would expect other residents of the building would enroll to be clients for the daily nurse visits even if their apartment wasn't one owned by the company.

[TheFishman1]

Yep inFlorida there are lots of them my Dad lived in one very upscale but he did not like that everybody would talk about ever body there was not his style to gossip and always hear about other people and to many rules about parking etc.

[slipperylobster]

Perhaps have something similar to Soi Cowboy running through it.  That ought to perk it up.

[evenstevens]

away suan sawan resort , mae rim,

 

are presently building a  aged care retreat, on their grounds which are absoulately superb in every aspect, i beleive that all sevices needed will be given

 

 

so to the o/p  ,your ideas are already in gear, in fact top gear,and  sure  there will be more to come

 

a very nice morning to all

[elektrified]

I live in a rented room in the old city.  To me the whole area is like one big assisted living facility, except not depressing.  The people where I live will help me out.  Plenty of restaurants, food, movies, massages, medical care, fun times close by.  Meals on Wheels delivers if I want to eat in my room.

 

One problem with assisted living facilities in the traditional sense is that everyone there is old.  You get to watch your neighbors die.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I could be wrong but as I understood the OP he was targeting the older, less healthy retirees with his idea.

[alfieconn]

Are there any other things you would add to make the dream living place?

How about an art gallery?
Self select cinema?
Library?

 

Go Go Bar

[hmficc]

What price point?

[mesquite]

 

I live in a rented room in the old city.  To me the whole area is like one big assisted living facility, except not depressing.  The people where I live will help me out.  Plenty of restaurants, food, movies, massages, medical care, fun times close by.  Meals on Wheels delivers if I want to eat in my room.

 

One problem with assisted living facilities in the traditional sense is that everyone there is old.  You get to watch your neighbors die.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I could be wrong but as I understood the OP he was targeting the older, less healthy retirees with his idea.

 

 

You think I'm healthy? 
 

Yes, he probably was.  But one can get a part time nurse pretty cheaply around CM.

Edited July 29, 2014 by mesquite

[mamborobert]

 

 

I live in a rented room in the old city.  To me the whole area is like one big assisted living facility, except not depressing.  The people where I live will help me out.  Plenty of restaurants, food, movies, massages, medical care, fun times close by.  Meals on Wheels delivers if I want to eat in my room.

 

One problem with assisted living facilities in the traditional sense is that everyone there is old.  You get to watch your neighbors die.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I could be wrong but as I understood the OP he was targeting the older, less healthy retirees with his idea.

 

 

You think I'm healthy? 
 

Yes, he probably was.  But one can get a part time nurse pretty cheaply around CM.

 

 

 

 

Part time nurse .........is that what they calll them now :) .  I like the term "caregiver".  Broader duties. less qualifications, but alas no uniform (officially anyway)..

[Bernard Flint]

Perhaps have something similar to Soi Cowboy running through it.  That ought to perk it up.

 

I think that would put most people off, soi cowboy is a dump

[Bernard Flint]

My View

 

I wouldnt live in a condo, full stop

[mamborobert]

Back to the OP.  I am not sure how you would guage demand for such a venture.  Not everyeone wants to bring their aged parents to Thailand.  Some parents wish to remain in their familiar homeland or with their other children, Those that are married to Thais here would I thought be more likely to access the help of the wider Thai famly.  My brothers in law would be pretty much ashamed if I were to even think of moving into such a complex with my wife (or without God forbid). 

 

If we are looking at the elderly or infirm then again I note that Thai visa is littered with posts and threads about elderly or retirees not having sufficient funds to look after themsleves or the have the minimum unindexed figure for their visa so cannot see how they could afford such a venture as you suggest.

 

I just can't see where the numbers are here .....other than married foreign couples...who are old...who have finances...who want to do such a move.  Maybe start with a smaller concept area but still have room to expand?

 

Years ago I think you could have got by on a build it and they will come, as in market overseas when you have established model/facility (like a few Malaysian complexes do) but now with exchange rates, political instability, increasing (if that were possible) xenophobia I just could not see that you would get the numbers.

 

Willing to accept that I may be wrong but I just can't see the target numbers being here.

 

 

Possible other use for Promenada :) and surrounding lands....the car park is pretty empty now anyway, have the restaurants, could be a goer.

Edited July 29, 2014 by mamborobert

[mccw]

What price point?

I am thinking 60k per square meter off plan (50%) and 70k after completion (30%) possibly with final 20% retained for rental or released slowly at 80k once established.

These prices put it at the upper end of the existing market. It would be at a higher quality than anything I see on the market in CM today. More facilities; marble floors and such.

At these prices units of 45 to 120 sqm would be affordable to many retirees who are selling a property in their home countries. Or the Thais moving up from bangkok.

I am not thinking target for the infirm btw.

[umbanda]

Your idea is excellent, and it is not new. Probably is something similar already in Thailand. I was working in residential projects in America using the condominium/administration system, I know that it is posible to do it here, even with foreigner ownership...building a new place or buying a present resort, for assisted living or retirement. To test the maket, and to contact potential buyers/members, I started a project that you can find online. We are forming the first group coming in December from the US.

For any more details, send me a message.

 

[cardinalblue]

I expect the retirement community concept to get bigger and bigger with an increasing variety of models in America given the baby boom population. But for Chiang Mai?

 

To my knowledge I know of only two conventional nursing homes as cost and culture prohibit them from flourishing. Your concept of a retirement community would have to be supported mainly from the foreign market (and that might mainly be westerners) and I believe that current population is not nearly enough to draw enough interest for this type of place.If western foreigners like this type of living, they wouldn't opt out to live overseas as they have this option available at home.

 

You would really have to do extensive market research to see if this is even viable here. It's all about numbers and type of consumers living here or who are drawn here. Will westerners in the future continue to choose CM in the face of uncontrolled growth and rising costs? Again the need to study stats and trends.....

 

My guess now would be that a small nursing home design or an assisted living facility would be more suited to the western population here than a full-fledge retirement community as you described in the OP. Again, the need to study how those types of current facilities here are doing or not doing to fill occupancy...

 

As to your bar stool patron, those types of individuals will remain where they sit even with the best retirement community in the world across the street. They need much more help than a place to live with a new lifestyle...

 

CB.   

 

Edited July 29, 2014 by cardinalblue

[umbanda]

 

What price point?

I am thinking 60k per square meter off plan (50%) and 70k after completion (30%) possibly with final 20% retained for rental or released slowly at 80k once established.

These prices put it at the upper end of the existing market. It would be at a higher quality than anything I see on the market in CM today. More facilities; marble floors and such.

At these prices units of 45 to 120 sqm would be affordable to many retirees who are selling a property in their home countries. Or the Thais moving up from bangkok.

I am not thinking target for the infirm btw.

 

 

[Bung]

It would be better up in the hills where it is cooler year round.

Also, I am not sure Farang owned condos can be built along the land, they have to be upwards? Isn't that the whole idea? That Farang cannot own and occupy land?

[evenstevens]

away suan sawan resort , mae rim,

 

are presently building a  aged care retreat, on their grounds which are absoulately superb in every aspect, i beleive that all sevices needed will be given

 

 

so to the o/p  ,your ideas are already in gear, in fact top gear,and  sure  there will be more to come

 

a very nice morning to all

 

link to the above post...WWW.CARERESORTCHIANGMAI.COM

 

a nice afternoon to all

Edited July 29, 2014 by evenstevens

[NancyL]

I suggest the OP seriously look at Care Resort (the former Away Suan) and the more down-market Dok Kaew (part of McKean Rehabilitation Center) and ask himself why those places aren't sold out. Also, he's being very unrealistic with the comment "I'm not thinking target for the infirm"

I've assisted elderly people who were settled into these places by their well-meaning children -- active folks, who started going nuts with the isolation and high cost of transport into town from their remote locations. They soon made contact with other expats at Ladies Lunches or Expats Club meetings and before too long figured out how to move to a serviced apartment in town, where to go for meals, how to arrange their own transport via tuk-tuk, etc.

It's the infirm to need a specialized living center -- not active elderly people. Chiang Mai already is "retirement tailored living"

At least Dok Kaew is part of McKean Rehabilitation Center where they can handle the needs of the infirm. It's not realistic to promote a facility as a "retirement facility" if they can't provide for someone's needs through the end-of-life. Edited July 29, 2014 by NancyL

[mccw]

I suggest the OP seriously look at Care Resort (the former Away Suan) and the more down-market Dok Kaew (part of McKean Rehabilitation Center) and ask himself why those places aren't sold out. Also, he's being very unrealistic with the comment "I'm not thinking target for the infirm"

I've assisted elderly people who were settled into these places by their well-meaning children -- active folks, who started going nuts with the isolation and high cost of transport into town from their remote locations. They soon made contact with other expats at Ladies Lunches or Expats Club meetings and before too long figured out how to move to a serviced apartment in town, where to go for meals, how to arrange their own transport via tuk-tuk, etc.

It's the infirm to need a specialized living center -- not active elderly people. Chiang Mai already is "retirement tailored living"

At least Dok Kaew is part of McKean Rehabilitation Center where they can handle the needs of the infirm. It's not realistic to promote a facility as a "retirement facility" if they can't provide for someone's needs through the end-of-life.

I have considered this.

I do not think it is reasonable to expect a condo for active adults to provide care for seriously infirm people. Just as some one living in a serviced apartment or ordinary condo at some point may need to move to a higher level of care facility/ home or have some extra arrangements organised.

The idea is for a community of active and healthy people who wish to own their own home in the peace and quiet of the countryside but with all the facilities of town with in easy access.

Regards transport costs they would be zero or close to zero as I already said about the free shuttle bus service.

I do understand the budgetary constraints of fixed income living; which is why I think/ inspired by the Kings sustainable economy ideas; to incorporate organic farm so as to provide free food to residents. I am working out details currently but I anticipate being able to offer a full board package, with a weekly housekeeping service for 5 or 6 thousand bht per month.
So when owning ones home in this place, all food and including utilities, a sure budget would be around 8thousand bht monthly, certainly under 10.
This figure is under most western state pensions and would leave money to spare for activities, eating out, saving, etc and living in a much nicer environment than a box in down town central Chiang Mai in my opinion. Personally I would much rather live in the countryside on a large land than in the city centre but there is a lack of foreign ownership possibilities.

The idea of extra services is to distinguish the place from an ordinary condo- more and better facilities than any age group would like because more land available. I have costed it and can make good returns with out the need to be stingy.
The idea for nurses on call is not for help with day to day living but Incase of emergency. For example if feel a heat attack / dizziness etc coming on then pressing a button and having life saving treatment available within minutes could be the difference between death or a full recover. Things like heart attack can strike out of the blue on even the most active and healthy people as I am sure you know.
The other services are just to make life easier; like a hotel or serviced apartment has extra services - it's a welcome service - not something intended to demean the one receiving it. I don't feel it's condescending of my maid to wash my floors just because I know that I could be doing it myself. I've made the choice to pay for and enjoy the service.

[mccw]

It would be better up in the hills where it is cooler year round.

Also, I am not sure Farang owned condos can be built along the land, they have to be upwards? Isn't that the whole idea? That Farang cannot own and occupy land?

Hi
I know of another project with is only two levels. The units must be above each other; then it's ok- ie can not build a row of town houses and call it a condo.

[mccw]

Thanks for all feed back everybody.

Just to mention. I am not ego tripping like I am the first ever to think of such a thing like this. In the UK we have nursing homes like the care homes mentioned. But also retirement apartments. Condos basically with a minimum age of 55 normally. Some have extra facilities like emergency alarms while others are just like any other building but with the age restriction on residents. It seems some people just like to know they will not be living next to benefits louts, screaming babies, etc. The seaside towns along the south coast have many such developments.

My idea is new formation for me in applying a similar thing to Thailand; but more space, facilities, organic sufficiency model etc. I didn't know about the Amercian / Florida model but it makes sense given the climate over there- I recently heard about retirement developments in Canada too - in the mountains ; just normal houses in a gated community only for the over 50s ; active retirees as the target , bike riding, walking, boating, fishing and such.

[hml367]

Would you need the condos floor space owned by Thai nationals still at 51% for this project?

[Bung]

I'm pretty sure you would. I would love to be able to buy a condo on two levels with larger grounds and parking.

[cardinalblue]

Probably want to stay out of the the delivery of health care services that said, still could provide these types of services to your members as resources by building relationships with hospitals nursing schools doctors etc. could become a selling point esp if discounted...

Assisted living is something you probably would want to provide by having maids non medical assistants on staff in a pool format to provide daily needs if needed..labor recruitment and retention could be an issue unless compensated above market rate...# 1 complaint of farang business owners i hear is can't find good workers here...

CB