Can I Borrow Your Money?

[paperwerks]

I got hit up today for a 30,000 bhat loan from a middle class thai business person and very good friend. This person is very smart in business and I believe that the loan would likely be repaid on time in one month with 5% interest (90% chance). I was even offered a chanote on a condo to hold. This request was a bit of a shock because the person has been a friend for a while. But I said that I really wanted to help and khaw thoat but can not because I promised myself that I would never, ever lend or borrow money again because it always leaves me with a bad feeling and especially amoung family and friends.

Also, why by definition if someone needs to borrow money, then there are having financial problems already. Why should I lend money to someone with financial problems? If I lose the friendship so be it. If this person was having health problems or was in danger of losing their condo, I would probably just give them a few thousand baht.

After recently bailing my mother in law out of a 17000 gambling debt and yacking her good (she lost a lot of face but I don't care any more) about it too, the loan/gift window ifs officially closed.

I am sure this topic has been discussed ad nauseum but do most long termers just hit a point where every single request for money is automatically rejected out of hand? This is where I am at now. And once you have hit this point do the requests come to an end??

I am curious to hear about others people's positions on this issue. At this point asking me to borrow my money is the same as asking a statue--I just say no! A thousand times no! Am I too jaded?

TIA

[Simmo]

Neither a borrower nor a lender be.

[simcity]

i loan my ex bf 20000 AU dollar , no papers sign , he give me back 10000 dollar and 5000 dollars, he was paying bank interest to me .

5000 still to go , he want to paid me back but i said to keep it as emergency !

hope this post will prove some people are decent .

[bkkexplorer]

As in investing, the same goes for lending money.

Only lend what you're willing to lose. Simple as that. If you can't afford to lose it don't lend anything.

I'm not saying friends/ people never pay back their loans. It's just a less distressing position to be in when you don't recieve the monies back. I have lent money to people I expect to get it back from and others I don't. Of course, there have been times I don't recieve from the ones I expected payment back. It is painful to learn what sort of deceptive 'friends' you have. Their true colours quickly come out. Luckily, I've been in a position to 'forget' about the loans. I use the term forget lightly. I have had flashes of breaking bones when agreed payments had not been met.

I'd like to think I now have a better idea of people I can trust, but I still stick to the advise given above. Unless you have a trusted history with the person you're lending money to, or have some sort of collateral in exchange for the cash, read on..

Only lend what you're willing to lose...

[John_Betong]

If you can afford to lose the amount to be lent then treat it as an opportunity to either severe or bond a relationship.

[paperwerks]

Simcity: are you saying that I am not a decent person because I will not lend this money? My experience has been that most Thai people are poor. They should not be borrowing money because they can usually not pay it back or let themselves get overextended. This has been learned from experience. It is hard to say no to friends and family because you feel guilt. All I am saying is that after being used repeatedly as an ATM machine, I no longer feel any guilt whatsoever from saying no and was wondering if others found themselves enventually with the same attitude. If I said yes to everyone, there would be a line down the street with sob stories and get rich quick schemes, so I am chosing to say no to everyone no matter what and am feeling totally burnt out. ie, no more Thai people allowed inside the apartment because inevitably they all ask for money.

[Soundguy]

I got hit up today for a 30,000 bhat loan from a middle class thai business person and very good friend.

It's not a huge sum, but he's crossed that line.... So depending on how good a friend he is, I would either:

Think of it as a gift. So 'if' or 'when' he fails to repay you, he won't lose face.

OR

Ask to buy a part of his business instead, make you sort of like a 5 or 10% share holder, you could get 5 or 10% of his profits until he buys you back out. That way he saves face by you letting him believe you're taking this opportunity to invest in his business, not give him charity.

But I often ask would-be borrowers:

Can't you sell or pawn something?

If you have good collateral why won't a bank or your family loan you the money?

Edited July 3, 2006 by Soundguy

[pitrevie]

A Thai friend of mine tells me he never lends money as he does not wish to lose both the friend and his money. My own experience is that of lending money several times and never having been repaid. Now I am more older and wiser if a little poorer and any request for a loan is refused.

[rainman]

i do help out when someone is really in need, but it has a limit and i don't loan out money for just anything.

[Heng]

Sounds fishy. First of all, there are literally thousands of places where he can simply (within 30-45 minutes) and legally borrow at 1-3% per month with the condo chanote as collateral and the land department as witness. Why go to your friend (and embarrass yourself) for 5%?

My guess is that the borrower is assuming you don't know how to draw up a contract to hold the condo as collateral and intends to just physically hand you the chanote (an action that means nothing at all) to "hold."

[JohanGambolputty]

i do help out when someone is really in need, but it has a limit and i don't loan out money for just anything.

Fascinating topic, and a long running theme on boards like this, Money and falangs are inseperable, Ive only been to Thailand twice but once for three months and made a point of mixing with as many locals as I could and I visited my girlfreinds town- Surin- often. The order of importance for Thai's is as follows.

1. Buddha

2. Parents

3. King

4. Friends

5. Fallang husband/friend/boyfriend.

end. and Money is king in Thailand, you as a falang, are seen as rich, even if you only have 10,000 USD savings that, believe me is rich to a Thai. yes your friends in thailand really are your friends, very possibly they would be your friend is you were skint, but it is unlikely. I did an experiment, I posed as penniless up soi 8 - 6- 7, looking for work in bars etc, told them I sharing a flat with other deadbeats, even said I would work for food, no-one and I mean no-one wanted to know, bar girls, falangs no one.

Two weeks later, I made up some story telling them Id finally sold my house in the UK (not true) and Id landed 50,000£ windfall (90000USD), went back to the same people about 35 ( I noted there) names where Id met the etc, I can assure you it is a very different story, nothing I mean nothing was too much trouble for them.....see.

Dont get me wrong my girl is a thai and a lot are very genuine and lovley and there friendship is sincere, but it is for a falang at least dependent on if you have money.

But sadly, money talks everywhere not just thailand.

Opinions ??>

[simcity]

Simcity: are you saying that I am not a decent person because I will not lend this money? My experience has been that most Thai people are poor. They should not be borrowing money because they can usually not pay it back or let themselves get overextended. This has been learned from experience. It is hard to say no to friends and family because you feel guilt. All I am saying is that after being used repeatedly as an ATM machine, I no longer feel any guilt whatsoever from saying no and was wondering if others found themselves enventually with the same attitude. If I said yes to everyone, there would be a line down the street with sob stories and get rich quick schemes, so I am chosing to say no to everyone no matter what and am feeling totally burnt out. ie, no more Thai people allowed inside the apartment because inevitably they all ask for money.

No that did not cross my mind ! Perhaps it is the way I am putting my French / English together!

just said in every society some people are decent, my friend was, the relation was finish when he ask me, I got him residency and a Australian passport but he decide to come back to Bangkok to a international company, it is why he ask me for the loan for personal reason, I was at the same time renewing a finance mortgage and did increase this loan for 20000 dollars more for him, it is why I did charge him same interest as the bank charge me.

Because I do not like and truth paperwork in Thailand I did not ask for agreement, to tell you the truth I bought my house here way before from his father but it was already in his name, I bought it and did not change the name on it!

I care more about a strong bound with him, been living happy for the last 8 years without problem; he became the executer of my Australian will the last 6 months!

As many said, if someone is not going to reimburse you and it is going to call on you for a hardship, better not to do it!

I am cool , I can loose my house and everything I have here , I will be like a cat and land on my feet again .

I took the risk, and was happy with the result!

It is nice to know you can count of few people, and been a help to them is a prove but yes that can turn nasty!

By no mean I will lend to everyone, only three people in my circle here, if you feel you do not want to lend perhaps you have a six sense, you just did the right thing for you.

I did said no many times, but some time I did said ok! Depends who and my guts feeling .

I land to a australian / french guy and he never reimburse me , because of my landing he escape jail term for car fines not paid !

[The Coder]

I would never loan to a friend (thai or farang), not even a family member. It's the easiest way to sever a good relationship. I've denied Thai's loans and every single time it had no effect on the relationship and probably raised their respect in no longer thinking of me as just another gullible walking ATM machine. If someone insists they need your money or it's the end, just ask them what they would do if they didn't know you. That will shift their attention away from you and into more sound financial thinking.

[PeaceBlondie]

This has been done before, but I pick one of the following good reasons:

1. I am not a banker; I don't loan money.

2. You are my friend; I don't want you to be my borrower.

3. I don't know how to loan money in Thailand.

4. Back home in Wyoming, on my bison ranch, three buffalo just died.

5. My sister/mother/son needs a medical operation next week, one million baht - can you loan that much to me?

6. I don't have the money to lend.

7. Oh, is it 6 o'clock already? I must going to shopping, and going to seeing my chiropodist....

[thohts]

When people ask to borrow money from me I let them know that I can probably help their financial situation. Then,

-I ask them how much they need and why they need it. (A detailed explanation may be required)

-I ask to see their financial papers for the past few months (expenses, bills, bank statements, etc)

-I ask them if they owe anyone else money

(Think a bank would give you an easier time?)

If they are desparate enough to ask then they should be willing enough to share this info.

A lot of times, people need personal loans because they are not good with money. Simply asking for a loan is easy for them but will often just feed the flames. I can often see where their financial problem is after a couple of minutes.

If what I see doesn't look good then I will say something along the lines of "I can help you get your affairs in order, but I can't afford to lend you money". This is just my way of saying that it's too much risk for me.

The only person who didn't want to provide detailed info was, ironically, the person who needed it the most. Needless to say, I didn't give it to her (it was my sister). I work hard for my money, and if you're going to borrow money, you should work hard for it, too.

[toptuan]

1. I am not a banker; I don't loan money.

2. You are my friend; I don't want you to be my borrower.

3. I don't know how to loan money in Thailand.

4. Back home in Wyoming, on my bison ranch, three buffalo just died.

5. My sister/mother/son needs a medical operation next week, one million baht - can you loan that much to me?

6. I don't have the money to lend.

7. Oh, is it 6 o'clock already? I must going to shopping, and going to seeing my chiropodist....

I add one more: "Amazing! I was just getting ready to come to YOU to see if you'd loan ME some money!"

Edited July 3, 2006 by toptuan

[slackula]

FWIW I lend money to my staff all the time. A month doesn't go by when somebody comes into the office and asks for a loan. The amount varies, anything from 1,000 to 10,000. If I have it and I know that the borrower's salary is good to cover it I lend it. Never had a problem yet getting it back. When my lending is maxed out I say sorry, no can do, and it is accepted by the asker.

I would be very wary of lending a larger amount to anybody, but that is in no way related to Thailand. I'd feel the same on that in my home country or anywhere else.

[qualtrough]

[snip] I did an experiment, I posed as penniless up soi 8 - 6- 7, looking for work in bars etc, told them I sharing a flat with other deadbeats, even said I would work for food, no-one and I mean no-one wanted to know, bar girls, falangs no one.

Two weeks later, I made up some story telling them Id finally sold my house in the UK (not true) and Id landed 50,000£ windfall (90000USD), went back to the same people about 35 ( I noted there) names where Id met the etc, I can assure you it is a very different story, nothing I mean nothing was too much trouble for them.....see.

Opinions ??>

Yeah, I have an opinion. You sound like a real loser. Did you conduct similar 'experiments' in other countries? Please share the results with us. I would be curious to learn more about countries in which people like hanging out with deadbeats more than the well-to-do.

[Nikkijah]

I can't believe some of the scroogie things some people here are saying! If my sister needed some cash to get herself out of sh1t, or my mum had a medical bill or my son needed some cash to buy that motor he had been dreaming of I would sort them out in a second, if you've got it and you can afford it then surely it should make you happy that you are making someone else happy at the same time??...

We're not bankers, we're friends and family, has someone forgotten that?

[Nam Kao]

Dont lend anyone nothing

Once you start lending - word will travel fast and all kinds of newly found friends will be popping up

[naka]

I got hit up today for a 30,000 bhat loan from a middle class thai business person and very good friend. This person is very smart in business

Very smart in business ... but cannot scrape 30k together.

Guess he's not very smart in the money making business.

Like those tossers who run seminars with names like

"How to make a million dollars a year" ... on whatever

Yea ... so why are they still selling seminars ?

Naka.

Edited July 4, 2006 by naka

[thohts]

I can't believe some of the scroogie things some people here are saying! If my sister needed some cash to get herself out of sh1t, or my mum had a medical bill or my son needed some cash to buy that motor he had been dreaming of I would sort them out in a second, if you've got it and you can afford it then surely it should make you happy that you are making someone else happy at the same time??...

We're not bankers, we're friends and family, has someone forgotten that?

That's good for you, but my sister is always in need of money. As in, every time I talk to her.

What does one do with these vampires (yes, even if they are family)?

[smartecosse]

i do help out when someone is really in need, but it has a limit and i don't loan out money for just anything.

Fascinating topic, and a long running theme on boards like this, Money and falangs are inseperable, Ive only been to Thailand twice but once for three months and made a point of mixing with as many locals as I could and I visited my girlfreinds town- Surin- often. The order of importance for Thai's is as follows.

1. Buddha

2. Parents

3. King

4. Friends

5. Fallang husband/friend/boyfriend.

end. and Money is king in Thailand, you as a falang, are seen as rich, even if you only have 10,000 USD savings that, believe me is rich to a Thai. yes your friends in thailand really are your friends, very possibly they would be your friend is you were skint, but it is unlikely. I did an experiment, I posed as penniless up soi 8 - 6- 7, looking for work in bars etc, told them I sharing a flat with other deadbeats, even said I would work for food, no-one and I mean no-one wanted to know, bar girls, falangs no one.

Two weeks later, I made up some story telling them Id finally sold my house in the UK (not true) and Id landed 50,000£ windfall (90000USD), went back to the same people about 35 ( I noted there) names where Id met the etc, I can assure you it is a very different story, nothing I mean nothing was too much trouble for them.....see.

Dont get me wrong my girl is a thai and a lot are very genuine and lovley and there friendship is sincere, but it is for a falang at least dependent on if you have money.

But sadly, money talks everywhere not just thailand.

Opinions ??>

then you must be mixing with totally the wrong type of peolple. money does play a role in life here, as it does everywhere you go all over the world but you cannot just make a sweeping statement like that.

if you are at a "bar" and the girls are looking for customers and you have no money then you aren't worth them wasting time on - why should they

personally having been out of work here for a while last year i couldnt beleive how much "help" was given by people who had so little to start with from sharing of food to somewhere to live for a month

far more help than i would have got anywhere else i am sure, and they did it with no expectations of getting anything back.

[Lacoste]

I got hit up today for a 30,000 bhat loan from a middle class thai business person and very good friend. This person is very smart in business

Very smart in business ... but cannot scrape 30k together.

Guess he's not very smart in the money making business.

Like those tossers who run seminars with names like

"How to make a million dollars a year" ... on whatever

Yea ... so why are they still selling seminars ?

Naka.

The most pathetic name for one of these such seminars i have seen was called "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" was run by some Americans here in Bangkok a couple of years ago.

[Heng]

Like all business.....If there weren't endless legions of tossers who are willing to buy tickets to hear people talk, there wouldn't be tossers selling tickets. And if you compare who is less of a tosser at the end of the day... well one guy is laughing and the others are scratching their heads.

[jaiyenjohn]

I have to say I've been on the other side of the equation here in Thailand. When our business was first starting out and we had a couple of bad months, my wife's Thai family was happy to lend us money, whereas my farang family and friends declined (as is their right of course, no hard feelings).

These were not rich people, rice farmers, a retired teacher, etc. They offered to even put their land up as collateral on a loan for us. Which I had to forcibly decline (just the idea that they could possibly lose their land for me, filled me with fear).

Mother, sister and cousin all pitched in. It really touched me deeply, and made me take a look at the family bonds in a whole new way. I was able to pay all the money back on time, and no interest was charged.

Maybe your friend just has a short term cash-flow problem (certainly not uncommon when running your own business) and knows he will be able to pay the money back after his next job/client/whatever.

I'm going to flaut the common wisdom of the boards- I've both loaned money to and from Thais and had no problems. If he's your friend and you can afford it, trust him. Maybe one day you might need him to return the favor?

Edited July 4, 2006 by jaiyenjohn

[Nikkijah]

Exactly jaiyenjohn, I have also been on both ends of this equation but unlike you have sometimes failed to pay back on time and have been paid back late, sometimes because of my own fault, sometimes because others have let me down. None of us are perfect but we all need someone elses faith in us sometimes!

It obviously comes down to whether or not this friend is trustworthy in your mind or if he is going to forget to call you for a few months after the loan - which is one of the things that happened to me.