Canadian Journalist Shot Dead By Girlfriend In Chiang Mai

[Schooner]

Does anyone know or can explain why she followed him to Thailand?

I completely side with the children and support there protection and provisions for them to have a healthy life (with just one name) where they will be fortified with enough of a sense of selfworth that they will be resistant to falling for any guy who claims to be God. Whatever I might think of the mother I think I can safely say is at the very least a bad example.

I'm courious about the thai wife. Were they married? I have a hard time believing that a Thai woman would fall for his crap. It would be interesting to see how she thinks about all this. I can imagine the first time he played his "I'm god" card and she pulls out her third eye.

[specialk]

Does anyone know or can explain why she followed him to Thailand?

I completely side with the children and support there protection and provisions for them to have a healthy life (with just one name) where they will be fortified with enough of a sense of selfworth that they will be resistant to falling for any guy who claims to be God. Whatever I might think of the mother I think I can safely say is at the very least a bad example.

I'm courious about the thai wife. Were they married? I have a hard time believing that a Thai woman would fall for his crap. It would be interesting to see how she thinks about all this. I can imagine the first time he played his "I'm god" card and she pulls out her third eye.

I don't know for certain when Jean arrived in Thailand, but I can tell you this, she has always been around GPD and was probably there before he was. She was abused and was his victim and it's not like she had a choice, he would stop at nothing and hurt her and the kids if she didn't stay by his side and help him. GPD always kept her near him and mostly out of sight. I do know that she was finally trying to get away and I don't think this sat too well for Dubie. He surely didn't want to loose another slave. This is how he worked people!!!! Manipulate, control, and terrify his slaves. The people in his community just saw what he wanted them to see. He only treated some like he did Jeana and used them to his bidding. Remember folks, I used to be one of them and also saw how he hurt and controlled Jeana. I really do think he was threatening her and she just got the better of the situation and saved her own life. It is amazing the strength a woman can have when she is fighting for her children..........Self defense.........Send her back to Canada.................Why would Thailand want to keep her there anyway??????? Makes no sense........... At least let her be in the same Country that her children are in........

[Schooner]

Well specialk I think you answered my question.

I will say again that the children of this pair of misfits (guy and gal apparently) deserve a decent shot at a healthy life and a mother who suffers a lifetime of abuse, comes/stays under someones spell, and makes a choice to kill her tormentor is a poor example for her children and should not be around them to screw-up there heads anymore than has already been done.

If you really care about the children I would think that you would want them to make something of there life besides being a doormat.

[LoveDaBlues]

Does anyone know or can explain why she followed him to Thailand?

I completely side with the children and support there protection and provisions for them to have a healthy life (with just one name) where they will be fortified with enough of a sense of selfworth that they will be resistant to falling for any guy who claims to be God. Whatever I might think of the mother I think I can safely say is at the very least a bad example.

I'm courious about the thai wife. Were they married? I have a hard time believing that a Thai woman would fall for his crap. It would be interesting to see how she thinks about all this. I can imagine the first time he played his "I'm god" card and she pulls out her third eye.

I don't know for certain when Jean arrived in Thailand, but I can tell you this, she has always been around GPD and was probably there before he was. She was abused and was his victim and it's not like she had a choice, he would stop at nothing and hurt her and the kids if she didn't stay by his side and help him. GPD always kept her near him and mostly out of sight. I do know that she was finally trying to get away and I don't think this sat too well for Dubie. He surely didn't want to loose another slave. This is how he worked people!!!! Manipulate, control, and terrify his slaves. The people in his community just saw what he wanted them to see. He only treated some like he did Jeana and used them to his bidding. Remember folks, I used to be one of them and also saw how he hurt and controlled Jeana. I really do think he was threatening her and she just got the better of the situation and saved her own life. It is amazing the strength a woman can have when she is fighting for her children..........Self defense.........Send her back to Canada.................Why would Thailand want to keep her there anyway??????? Makes no sense........... At least let her be in the same Country that her children are in........

This says it all.....you don't have a clue.

[BlackJack]

Does anyone know or can explain why she followed him to Thailand?

I completely side with the children and support there protection and provisions for them to have a healthy life (with just one name) where they will be fortified with enough of a sense of selfworth that they will be resistant to falling for any guy who claims to be God. Whatever I might think of the mother I think I can safely say is at the very least a bad example.

I'm courious about the thai wife. Were they married? I have a hard time believing that a Thai woman would fall for his crap. It would be interesting to see how she thinks about all this. I can imagine the first time he played his "I'm god" card and she pulls out her third eye.

I don't know for certain when Jean arrived in Thailand, but I can tell you this, she has always been around GPD and was probably there before he was. She was abused and was his victim and it's not like she had a choice, he would stop at nothing and hurt her and the kids if she didn't stay by his side and help him. GPD always kept her near him and mostly out of sight. I do know that she was finally trying to get away and I don't think this sat too well for Dubie. He surely didn't want to loose another slave. This is how he worked people!!!! Manipulate, control, and terrify his slaves. The people in his community just saw what he wanted them to see. He only treated some like he did Jeana and used them to his bidding. Remember folks, I used to be one of them and also saw how he hurt and controlled Jeana. I really do think he was threatening her and she just got the better of the situation and saved her own life. It is amazing the strength a woman can have when she is fighting for her children..........Self defense.........Send her back to Canada.................Why would Thailand want to keep her there anyway??????? Makes no sense........... At least let her be in the same Country that her children are in........

This says it all.....you don't have a clue.

I get it now - it wasnt GPD

it was PMS or PMT

Edited August 29, 2006 by BlackJack

[fruittbatt]

I get it now -

it was PMS or PMT

I think that stands for Predictable Moronic Slagging and Prehistoric Mutant Taunts by our favorite pair of charmers. Say, are you guys related by any chance?

[hawaiianeyes]

Whoa thaimeup, you have been to his house? Can you tell us more about him? Enquiring minds want to know...

Out of respect for his Thai girlfriend, I can't say much; I've known her a long time and she's going through a very bad time. Contrary to the usual stories one reads, she's not a gold digger. I met Daniel once and spoke to him briefly on the phone a couple of times. The stories give the impression that he is some kind of Svengali, but the man I met had no such qualities that I could see and not that interesting either. He was a very rich guy as pointed out earlier and a workaholic too..

Hi Thaimeup,

If you are still out there, I send Pim great respect, and sympathy. Daniel told me loved her very much and I suspect that as Schooner points out she would not tolerate his dark side. I do hope that Pim never endured any evil at his hand. I think that she was so treasured that she did not. I understood from Daniel that he got a legal US divorce 2 years ago so that he could properly marry her.

I believe that he definitely had two modes of behaving with women. It seems that many of the women in his past were treated to the affectionate/humble/enlightenment-seeking/industrious side of him. I saw both and made a point of trying to get him to admit to both and to reject the evil behaviours. Even until weeks before his death when he called it seemed to me he was trying to get me back into the "adoration camp" and to deny/laugh off his very real offenses against me. I told him that you can love a person and denounce evil that they do at the same time. I wanted him to admit his offenses against me to others that he had consistently lied to about me. I do expect that Jeana suffered much if I multiply my experiences by decades. I do not think that Geri suffered. It sounds as though Kari suffered mightily with his horrific kidnapping of one of their children. I expect that Sylvie suffered greatly based upon his accounts of her taking their children and hiding for years while he frantically searched.....

We can only piece together from those willing to share the context that may explain this bizarre tragic crime. There are lots of "clues” (LDB doesn't seem to share any though) and this forum has been for the most part a rich environment to share them.

I think we are very fortunate that Kari has taken the time to share her experiences and cumulative analysis. A big MAHALO! (thank you in Hawaiian)

As far as the recent past, more than anyone, I believe Felicia understood Daniel best. He told me that she knew and understood the situation with me. He said she introduced him to Pim. I feel very badly for her. She was the "apple of his eye" as far as I knew and the loss of a father is a horrible thing.

For all these reasons, I would hope-

That while frankly relaying the "truth" it is possible to not utterly vilify the man.

That there is even in death unconditional love together with unconditional truth.

That we collectively can share what actually happened without invoking the crazy women card.

That we can embrace his magically qualities without denying the suffering that misuse of them caused.

That we can support the Kingdom of Thailand to uphold the rule of law and still take the time to listen to all sides.

At the end of the day though this is not some academic detective novel it is a horrible tragedy of human suffering. Again I would ask that those who write in show some level of compassion and refrain from vindictive one liners. OK?

[Schooner]

This has been fun, but the bottom line is the Thai courts will deside her fate and I doubt that they are interested in our little debate here.

Actually when I asked my thai gf what she thought she told me that if it were a thai woman who shot her bad husband than she would probably walk. so, I asked her what if the tables were turned and it was a bad woman shot by her husband and she answered he should fry. go figure.

My argument is that there are always going to be bad people in the world and most intelligent, selfassured people who come in contact with them would simply walk away. I would have the same advise if it were a man or a woman. I have encountered these types and when it was apparent that they were not people who were well I walked away. Sometimes it was not easy because I was in love with them but in the long run my life is what I want it to be because I made the difficult choice.

I have a problem with the politically correct notion that we should love everyone and look for the good. Ted Bundy apparently had some good qualities. I seem to recall that some crazy (yes crazy) women married him before he fried. I've stayed too long with bad people myself to the point that my anger and resentment allowed me to imagine doing them serious harm. Actually, got my friends worried about me actually doing it, but I didn't harm them because it is just plain stupid. More importantly I "took responsability" for my role in getting myself in the situation in the first place, learned from it and moved on. I'm sure there are hundreds of men and women sitting in 5x7 cells whishing they had done things a little differently.

Children learn from example. I think that this women was only thinking of herself and not about the pain this would cause her children. This is like the guy who kills his parents and then asks for mercy because he is an orphan.

The difference between what I think and what some of you think is I am objective. If this situation was a man who pulled the trigger on a bad woman I would feel the same way. I wonder if some of you women out there defending this womans actions can say the same.

[fruittbatt]

This has been fun, but the bottom line is the Thai courts will deside her fate and I doubt that they are interested in our little debate here.

Actually when I asked my thai gf what she thought she told me that if it were a thai woman who shot her bad husband than she would probably walk. so, I asked her what if the tables were turned and it was a bad woman shot by her husband and she answered he should fry. go figure.

My argument is that there are always going to be bad people in the world and most intelligent, selfassured people who come in contact with them would simply walk away. I would have the same advise if it were a man or a woman. I have encountered these types and when it was apparent that they were not people who were well I walked away. Sometimes it was not easy because I was in love with them but in the long run my life is what I want it to be because I made the difficult choice.

I have a problem with the politically correct notion that we should love everyone and look for the good. Ted Bundy apparently had some good qualities. I seem to recall that some crazy (yes crazy) women married him before he fried. I've stayed too long with bad people myself to the point that my anger and resentment allowed me to imagine doing them serious harm. Actually, got my friends worried about me actually doing it, but I didn't harm them because it is just plain stupid. More importantly I "took responsability" for my role in getting myself in the situation in the first place, learned from it and moved on. I'm sure there are hundreds of men and women sitting in 5x7 cells whishing they had done things a little differently.

Children learn from example. I think that this women was only thinking of herself and not about the pain this would cause her children. This is like the guy who kills his parents and then asks for mercy because he is an orphan.

The difference between what I think and what some of you think is I am objective. If this situation was a man who pulled the trigger on a bad woman I would feel the same way. I wonder if some of you women out there defending this womans actions can say the same.

[fruittbatt]

This has been fun, but the bottom line is the Thai courts will deside her fate and I doubt that they are interested in our little debate here.

Actually when I asked my thai gf what she thought she told me that if it were a thai woman who shot her bad husband than she would probably walk. so, I asked her what if the tables were turned and it was a bad woman shot by her husband and she answered he should fry. go figure.

My argument is that there are always going to be bad people in the world and most intelligent, selfassured people who come in contact with them would simply walk away. I would have the same advise if it were a man or a woman. I have encountered these types and when it was apparent that they were not people who were well I walked away. Sometimes it was not easy because I was in love with them but in the long run my life is what I want it to be because I made the difficult choice.

I have a problem with the politically correct notion that we should love everyone and look for the good. Ted Bundy apparently had some good qualities. I seem to recall that some crazy (yes crazy) women married him before he fried. I've stayed too long with bad people myself to the point that my anger and resentment allowed me to imagine doing them serious harm. Actually, got my friends worried about me actually doing it, but I didn't harm them because it is just plain stupid. More importantly I "took responsability" for my role in getting myself in the situation in the first place, learned from it and moved on. I'm sure there are hundreds of men and women sitting in 5x7 cells whishing they had done things a little differently.

Children learn from example. I think that this women was only thinking of herself and not about the pain this would cause her children. This is like the guy who kills his parents and then asks for mercy because he is an orphan.

The difference between what I think and what some of you think is I am objective. If this situation was a man who pulled the trigger on a bad woman I would feel the same way. I wonder if some of you women out there defending this womans actions can say the same.

Hi Schooner,

i have read your posts on other topics and salute you for having dealt with an abusive childhood and multiple dysfunctional relationships.

where I diifer from your analysis on this topic is that no one's opinion is "objective". We all bring our experience and values to this discussion of a complex and tragic series of events. You cite your own experience as a model for overcoming destructive patterns of relationship which can lead to violence and murder. I agree that habitual behaviour is dumb, yet we all do it in some form or another, even if some habits are more benign than others.

Not everyone can make the same leaps of determination to change as you have evidently done: perhaps in their next lifetime . Meantime, perhaps (distanced) compassionate reflection is preferable to condemnatory judgment of those who keep doing the same dumb and self-destructive things.

I agree with your analysis that it is the children of GPD and Margaret/Jeana who have got the worst fall-out from this shooting. the other mothers of GPD's children have evidently struggled to overcome a crazy past and to raise their kids in a more mentally and emotionally-sane environment. Perhaps Margaret/Jeana's shooting of this GPD was a very misguided and desperate attempt to rid herself of the craziness and pain which had characterised her relationship with GPD?

If the situation was reversed, with a man being the "victim" (a word I hate) and the woman the "perpetrator" (ditto), then i would feel equal compassion for his situation. however, because of the gendered way in which power works in this world, the scenario of a man being physically abused and left holding the five babies is less than likely. Your girlfriend's response was astute in recognizing how the world can be perceived very differently according to one's cultural and gender position as well as a host of other variables.

[travelguy]

Some food for thought:

Imagine you and your children are totally dependent upon somebody financially. (the father in this case)

Imagine you have acquired a life threatening disease from this person

Imagine the person threatens to cut you and your children off financially unless you agree to sign off on certain terms including issues of abuse to one or more of your children.

Imagine you are treated with no respect and outright contempt by the man who fathered your 6 children. Somebody who feels his only responsibility is to send money every month.

And how would you feel? REALLY?

Yes, there is a lot more to this story which may or may not be told or written. I shall not be the one to tell it. Frankly, I shed no tears that he's gone. The world is probably a better place ( at least for the women ).

My sympathy and empathy for the ladies and children whose lives have been changed forever and I wish you all the courage and strength to pick up the pieces and move on. I know how difficult it is.

I would also suggest that those of you genuinely concerned about the accused explore what can be done to help her sustain herself medically.

Edited August 30, 2006 by travelguy

[mongoose]

Some food for thought:

I would also suggest that those of you genuinely concerned about the accused explore what can be done to help her sustain herself medically.

[/quote

Is it possible that you could tell us something about her medical needs so that we may consider whether we have the ability to help or do we all have to go to the jail to find out what she says?

[fruittbatt]

Some food for thought:

Imagine you and your children are totally dependent upon somebody financially. (the father in this case)

Imagine you have acquired a life threatening disease from this person

Imagine the person threatens to cut you and your children off financially unless you agree to sign off on certain terms including issues of abuse to one or more of your children.

Imagine you are treated with no respect and outright contempt by the man who fathered your 6 children. Somebody who feels his only responsibility is to send money every month.

And how would you feel? REALLY?

Yes, there is a lot more to this story which may or may not be told or written. I shall not be the one to tell it. Frankly, I shed no tears that he's gone. The world is probably a better place ( at least for the women ).

My sympathy and empathy for the ladies and children whose lives have been changed forever and I wish you all the courage and strength to pick up the pieces and move on. I know how difficult it is.

I would also suggest that those of you genuinely concerned about the accused explore what can be done to help her sustain herself medically.

I would like to help in any way I can (and have offered support previously) - as I go to Chiang Mai city every few weeks. I can understand that you may be reluctant to share much info with a forum where views of Margaret/Jeana are quite polarised, but I agree with Mongoose that it is somewhat unfair to berate those of us who are sympathetic if you withold information. You can pm me further details if you are sincere in trying to muster medical support for Margaret/Jeana. Thanks

[mongoose]

I would like to help in any way I can (and have offered support previously) - as I go to Chiang Mai city every few weeks. I can understand that you may be reluctant to share much info with a forum where views of Margaret/Jeana are quite polarised, but I agree with Mongoose that it is somewhat unfair to berate those of us who are sympathetic if you withold information. You can pm me further details if you are sincere in trying to muster medical support for Margaret/Jeana. Thanks

Fruitbat, Be a little careful about helping Gena. In the beginning I tried when she wanted a different lawyer. I found a good one through some of my Thai friends and spent time and money getting them together but she repeatedly changed her mind and ran us around and finally said she was going to use another lawyer. She is indescisive and wants a lot. Heard recently that the jail provided her with no food but this turns out to be untrue. She is vegitarian and does not want to eat what is provided. Getting real, she can no longer have what she wants and will have to make adjustments based on the realities of her situation. After all who is going to take her vegie food everyday. I am not saying do not try to help but remember she was a thief and trained by a skillful con man. This health/medical deal may just be a ploy.

[fruittbatt]

I would like to help in any way I can (and have offered support previously) - as I go to Chiang Mai city every few weeks. I can understand that you may be reluctant to share much info with a forum where views of Margaret/Jeana are quite polarised, but I agree with Mongoose that it is somewhat unfair to berate those of us who are sympathetic if you withold information. You can pm me further details if you are sincere in trying to muster medical support for Margaret/Jeana. Thanks

Fruitbat, Be a little careful about helping Gena. In the beginning I tried when she wanted a different lawyer. I found a good one through some of my Thai friends and spent time and money getting them together but she repeatedly changed her mind and ran us around and finally said she was going to use another lawyer. She is indescisive and wants a lot. Heard recently that the jail provided her with no food but this turns out to be untrue. She is vegitarian and does not want to eat what is provided. Getting real, she can no longer have what she wants and will have to make adjustments based on the realities of her situation. After all who is going to take her vegie food everyday. I am not saying do not try to help but remember she was a thief and trained by a skillful con man. This health/medical deal may just be a ploy.

Thanks for further info, Mongoose. I hear you clearly, as I have had personal and professional experience of slightly similar situations to Jeana's. I know very well that remand prisoners often make unreasonable demands because they are isolated and self-focussed, as well as very fearful, and sometimes in denial of guilt in their determination to beat a charge. In Jeana's case I wonder whether cultural alienation may also be a big factor. I hope travelguy will provide some basis for her/his claims via a pm. I'm not bothered about the possibility of being taken advantage of, because I have strong boundaries & am not "on the spot" & can only offer any help at 3-weekly intervals. However, I do heed your words and appreciate that you have been in there doing what you could already. Thanks again & best to you.

[BlackJack]

This has been fun, but the bottom line is the Thai courts will deside her fate and I doubt that they are interested in our little debate here.

Actually when I asked my thai gf what she thought she told me that if it were a thai woman who shot her bad husband than she would probably walk. so, I asked her what if the tables were turned and it was a bad woman shot by her husband and she answered he should fry. go figure.

My argument is that there are always going to be bad people in the world and most intelligent, selfassured people who come in contact with them would simply walk away. I would have the same advise if it were a man or a woman. I have encountered these types and when it was apparent that they were not people who were well I walked away. Sometimes it was not easy because I was in love with them but in the long run my life is what I want it to be because I made the difficult choice.

I have a problem with the politically correct notion that we should love everyone and look for the good. Ted Bundy apparently had some good qualities. I seem to recall that some crazy (yes crazy) women married him before he fried. I've stayed too long with bad people myself to the point that my anger and resentment allowed me to imagine doing them serious harm. Actually, got my friends worried about me actually doing it, but I didn't harm them because it is just plain stupid. More importantly I "took responsability" for my role in getting myself in the situation in the first place, learned from it and moved on. I'm sure there are hundreds of men and women sitting in 5x7 cells whishing they had done things a little differently.

Children learn from example. I think that this women was only thinking of herself and not about the pain this would cause her children. This is like the guy who kills his parents and then asks for mercy because he is an orphan.

The difference between what I think and what some of you think is I am objective. If this situation was a man who pulled the trigger on a bad woman I would feel the same way. I wonder if some of you women out there defending this womans actions can say the same.

Hi Schooner,

i have read your posts on other topics and salute you for having dealt with an abusive childhood and multiple dysfunctional relationships.

where I diifer from your analysis on this topic is that no one's opinion is "objective". We all bring our experience and values to this discussion of a complex and tragic series of events. You cite your own experience as a model for overcoming destructive patterns of relationship which can lead to violence and murder. I agree that habitual behaviour is dumb, yet we all do it in some form or another, even if some habits are more benign than others.

Not everyone can make the same leaps of determination to change as you have evidently done: perhaps in their next lifetime . Meantime, perhaps (distanced) compassionate reflection is preferable to condemnatory judgment of those who keep doing the same dumb and self-destructive things.

I agree with your analysis that it is the children of GPD and Margaret/Jeana who have got the worst fall-out from this shooting. the other mothers of GPD's children have evidently struggled to overcome a crazy past and to raise their kids in a more mentally and emotionally-sane environment. Perhaps Margaret/Jeana's shooting of this GPD was a very misguided and desperate attempt to rid herself of the craziness and pain which had characterised her relationship with GPD?

If the situation was reversed, with a man being the "victim" (a word I hate) and the woman the "perpetrator" (ditto), then i would feel equal compassion for his situation. however, because of the gendered way in which power works in this world, the scenario of a man being physically abused and left holding the five babies is less than likely. Your girlfriend's response was astute in recognizing how the world can be perceived very differently according to one's cultural and gender position as well as a host of other variables.

Schooner

I think that to understand this woman you need to take away reason and accountability.

It is clear that she has exhibited none of these qualities and now faces off with the courts

Her defence team will now find reason and the court will decide accountability.

[hawaiianeyes]

Good synopsis--Reason and Accountability

The rule of law breaks down when one feels justified by one's own "reasons" to enforce "accountability” of another.

I think that our collective attempts to reconstruct the event have given many plausible reasons why Jeana may have momentarily felt entitled to make GPD (the amazing Houdini of accountability) ultimately accountable for potentially years of abusive arrogant actions.

Personally, I spent years suffering and addressing the fall out of a finite period of trust in him through every legal means possible. I agree with Schooner that most people when faced with such treatment ultimately will understand that the person in question "is not well" perhaps feel sufficient rage to contemplate violent action but then have the capacity to decide "it is just plain stupid". Most people “take responsibility" and learn from it, move on and walk away. Over the years I have seen many other women victims of GPD do just this quietly while he remained upon his throne of no or minimal accountability supported by certain women who maintained things for him. I have elected to utilize my experiences to keep my eyes open and provide help for others when possible. Truly helping others requires both a keen objective eye as well as some genuine empathetic capacity that can not be intellectualized but is the result real experience and suffering. Extreme suffering seems to always carry with it moments of "crazy" desperation and confusion. Women may suffer more often due to power disparity or their more trusting, less objective, less aggressive (in general) natures.

Now what BJ says is quite true it is the court that will finally decide accountability. In this case it will be Jeana's actions to be judged and she will be ultimately accountable. I don't think that her so called "supporters" on this site take issue with this fact. I do not support murder. I also do not support abuse of women, lies, intimidation, threats or the neglect of children. There is plenty of tragedy in this story. The courts must decide who brought the gun and the rest of the story.

[Schooner]

You make a good point hawaiianeyes that his thai wife "would not tolerate his dark side" and isn't that the point of this discussion. he encountered many women who he apparently tried to dominate and manipulate. most of these women moved on and thus were not subject to the accumulation of resentment and anger that might trigger a violent response.

I'm not surprised that you have played the "men have all the power" card but it ignores the important fact that men are a hel_l of a lot harder on other men than they are on women. The vast majority of men, because of competition and homophobia turn to women to get there needs for intimacy met, however because most women do not have, or want, a clue of how men think there is a huge potential for misunderstanding and conflict.

It's a pile of crap to believe that what is happening with the gender power balance in the world has to have a effect on the relationship between two individuals. The elements of a healty relationship have been the same since the beginning of time. So are the elements of a unhealthy relationship.

So here is my "compassionate reflection" If you don't believe in something, you will fall for anything.

This woman made a career of being a victim. som nom na

[fruittbatt]

You make a good point hawaiianeyes that his thai wife "would not tolerate his dark side" and isn't that the point of this discussion. he encountered many women who he apparently tried to dominate and manipulate. most of these women moved on and thus were not subject to the accumulation of resentment and anger that might trigger a violent response.

I'm not surprised that you have played the "men have all the power" card but it ignores the important fact that men are a hel_l of a lot harder on other men than they are on women. The vast majority of men, because of competition and homophobia turn to women to get there needs for intimacy met, however because most women do not have, or want, a clue of how men think there is a huge potential for misunderstanding and conflict.

It's a pile of crap to believe that what is happening with the gender power balance in the world has to have a effect on the relationship between two individuals. The elements of a healty relationship have been the same since the beginning of time. So are the elements of a unhealthy relationship.

So here is my "compassionate reflection" If you don't believe in something, you will fall for anything.

This woman made a career of being a victim. som nom na

in this case many women DID believe in something: GPD's lies and false promises...hence they

FELL for him.

Some were able to see through the deliberate emotional manipulation that he allegedly used to keep them enmeshed with him. These women wrested back their dignity, admitted their mistakes and learned how to direct their own lives. Others (Jeana) perhaps had too much financial or emotional investment in a dysfunctional situation to consider the scary prospect of real emotional independence.

your dismissal of the role of gendered power in relationships is very simplistic indeed. As we hear constantly on ThaiVisa, Thailand is a country where older farang men are valued by young Thai women not for their character traits or compatability (& certainly not their good looks, intelligence, wit or charm) but because the man's money can help to improve the life and prospects of the young woman and often that of her family.

This is not said in order to criticise either party...it is obvious that there are many happy couples who are very much in love, compatible and mutually respectful. However, money is certainly a very important motivational factor for most Thai women because there is huge inequality between their earning potential and the wealth of the farang male partner...ie there is a gendered inequality of wealth.

You'll note that few older farang women partner with young Thai men. I suspect this is largely because of (gendered) cultural stigma and also because fewer women are sex-tourists (another gendered cultural practice). Because most western women earn less than their male counterparts they are also less likely to travel as extensively.

In the West there is also considerable gendered disparity between the earning potential of men and women. this a key factor in many women's decisions to enter partnerships or marriages and to remain within them. It has been suggested by travelguy that it was precisely her economic dependence on GPD that kept Jeana from considering a different type of life. I don't offer that as an "excuse" for the shooting. Nothing excuses killing another human being. My point is that inequity of wealth is a gendered inequity and has a huge effect on decisions regarding partnerships.

Edited September 3, 2006 by fruittbatt

[BlackJack]

You make a good point hawaiianeyes that his thai wife "would not tolerate his dark side" and isn't that the point of this discussion. he encountered many women who he apparently tried to dominate and manipulate. most of these women moved on and thus were not subject to the accumulation of resentment and anger that might trigger a violent response.

I'm not surprised that you have played the "men have all the power" card but it ignores the important fact that men are a hel_l of a lot harder on other men than they are on women. The vast majority of men, because of competition and homophobia turn to women to get there needs for intimacy met, however because most women do not have, or want, a clue of how men think there is a huge potential for misunderstanding and conflict.

It's a pile of crap to believe that what is happening with the gender power balance in the world has to have a effect on the relationship between two individuals. The elements of a healty relationship have been the same since the beginning of time. So are the elements of a unhealthy relationship.

So here is my "compassionate reflection" If you don't believe in something, you will fall for anything.

This woman made a career of being a victim. som nom na

in this case many women DID believe in something: GPD's lies and false promises...hence they

FELL for him.

Some were able to see through the deliberate emotional manipulation that he allegedly used to keep them enmeshed with him. These women wrested back their dignity, admitted their mistakes and learned how to direct their own lives. Others (Jeana) perhaps had too much financial or emotional investment in a dysfunctional situation to consider the scary prospect of real emotional independence.

your dismissal of the role of gendered power in relationships is very simplistic indeed. As we hear constantly on ThaiVisa, Thailand is a country where older farang men are valued by young Thai women not for their character traits or compatability (& certainly not their good looks, intelligence, wit or charm) but because the man's money can help to improve the life and prospects of the young woman and often that of her family.

This is not said in order to criticise either party...it is obvious that there are many happy couples who are very much in love, compatible and mutually respectful. However, money is certainly a very important motivational factor for most Thai women because there is huge inequality between their earning potential and the wealth of the farang male partner...ie there is a gendered inequality of wealth.

You'll note that few older farang women partner with young Thai men. I suspect this is largely because of (gendered) cultural stigma and also because fewer women are sex-tourists (another gendered cultural practice). Because most western women earn less than their male counterparts they are also less likely to travel as extensively.

In the West there is also considerable gendered disparity between the earning potential of men and women. this a key factor in many women's decisions to enter partnerships or marriages and to remain within them. It has been suggested by travelguy that it was precisely her economic dependence on GPD that kept Jeana from considering a different type of life. I don't offer that as an "excuse" for the shooting. Nothing excuses killing another human being. My point is that inequity of wealth is a gendered inequity and has a huge effect on decisions regarding partnerships.

are you saying that Thai women only go with Falangs because of money - nah - cant believe that for a second

[Schooner]

I'm wondering why you are defending this victim mentality. On the one hand you agree that all of her abuse does not justify murder but then you go on to make the argument that men have all the power like maybe your not sure.

A month or so ago here in Pattaya a man brutally murdered a thai woman because after he spent a fortune on her she betrayed him. I'm assuming that you would agree that he should fry regardless of his background and his life experences. So do I. I'm not going to say that the fact that she probably manipulated him and lied to him has anything to do with it. I'm not going to suggest that because of a evolutanary predisposition that men have to seek out sexual partners he was blinded and victim of his own biological needs and that made him vunrable to her lies. Perhaps we should blame the thai government for creating this wonderland for men and failing to properly warn them of the pitfalls. Gimmie a break.

I've read the same threads about thai/farang relationships that you have and what I'm hearing is men saying that while economics play a role (as they do everywhere in the world) the basis for the relationships that work are mutual respect, communication, honesty, and shared goals.

I'm hurt that you would suggest that my TGF is not with me for my good looks, wit and charm. (I think I need another hug) Perhaps you have seen that recent surveys of women place intelligence, humor, charm and honesty as most important in relationships. I believe that to be true here and in the west. I would add experence to that list. Do you think it make sense for a young person to seek out a mentor? You may have noticed that obtaining a mentor is all the rage in the west now and most of the successful people I know have at least one.

I would also submit that the economic disparity that exists here has more to do with culture than gender. You may be aware that there is a significant gay population here and the same kinds of relationship problems occur. For that matter they occur the same way in the west.

I love that label "sex tourist" but it seems to me that since I have always wanted sex it dosen't quite describe me. For example, the first sex I had was with myself so I would be better described during that period as a "sex monoest" Seems like since I was always thinking about sex (but not getting much) I might be better described as a "sex fantasist" I was alway on the look out for sex in my home country so was I a "sex resident" All of the women I've known enjoyed great sex too, but they were conflicted about it so maybe they are "sex ambivalist" Since many women use sex as a weapon against men to get there emotional needs met, perhaps they should be "sex terrorest" Fun with labels.

I know some very successful women back in the states and I think you would be hard pressed to convince them that gender issues were holding them back. Actually I think they would be offended by your argument. Frankly, I will never be convinced that compitition between men and women can ever hold a candle to the compitition between men and men.

I think that the reason that men get along better with thai women is because the gender "roles" are more clearly defined. I was involved in the fad for men to get in touch with there "feminine side" great experence, but what I discovered was I don't have one. What I do have is a need for intimacy, connection with others, acceptance, and validation. Most of those needs are met internally and the ones that get met by others are best met by other men who have a clue. I think this makes me completly available to share a balanced life with women.

So, back to the issue. Am I to assume that since you say "nothing excuses killing" that you now agree that she should fry? Maybe you think that she should be comforted and allowed to return to being a bad example for her children? Maybe you're ambivalent.

[fruittbatt]

I'm wondering why you are defending this victim mentality. On the one hand you agree that all of her abuse does not justify murder but then you go on to make the argument that men have all the power like maybe your not sure.

A month or so ago here in Pattaya a man brutally murdered a thai woman because after he spent a fortune on her she betrayed him. I'm assuming that you would agree that he should fry regardless of his background and his life experences. So do I. I'm not going to say that the fact that she probably manipulated him and lied to him has anything to do with it. I'm not going to suggest that because of a evolutanary predisposition that men have to seek out sexual partners he was blinded and victim of his own biological needs and that made him vunrable to her lies. Perhaps we should blame the thai government for creating this wonderland for men and failing to properly warn them of the pitfalls. Gimmie a break.

I've read the same threads about thai/farang relationships that you have and what I'm hearing is men saying that while economics play a role (as they do everywhere in the world) the basis for the relationships that work are mutual respect, communication, honesty, and shared goals.

I'm hurt that you would suggest that my TGF is not with me for my good looks, wit and charm. (I think I need another hug) Perhaps you have seen that recent surveys of women place intelligence, humor, charm and honesty as most important in relationships. I believe that to be true here and in the west. I would add experence to that list. Do you think it make sense for a young person to seek out a mentor? You may have noticed that obtaining a mentor is all the rage in the west now and most of the successful people I know have at least one.

I would also submit that the economic disparity that exists here has more to do with culture than gender. You may be aware that there is a significant gay population here and the same kinds of relationship problems occur. For that matter they occur the same way in the west.

I love that label "sex tourist" but it seems to me that since I have always wanted sex it dosen't quite describe me. For example, the first sex I had was with myself so I would be better described during that period as a "sex monoest" Seems like since I was always thinking about sex (but not getting much) I might be better described as a "sex fantasist" I was alway on the look out for sex in my home country so was I a "sex resident" All of the women I've known enjoyed great sex too, but they were conflicted about it so maybe they are "sex ambivalist" Since many women use sex as a weapon against men to get there emotional needs met, perhaps they should be "sex terrorest" Fun with labels.

I know some very successful women back in the states and I think you would be hard pressed to convince them that gender issues were holding them back. Actually I think they would be offended by your argument. Frankly, I will never be convinced that compitition between men and women can ever hold a candle to the compitition between men and men.

I think that the reason that men get along better with thai women is because the gender "roles" are more clearly defined. I was involved in the fad for men to get in touch with there "feminine side" great experence, but what I discovered was I don't have one. What I do have is a need for intimacy, connection with others, acceptance, and validation. Most of those needs are met internally and the ones that get met by others are best met by other men who have a clue. I think this makes me completly available to share a balanced life with women.

So, back to the issue. Am I to assume that since you say "nothing excuses killing" that you now agree that she should fry? Maybe you think that she should be comforted and allowed to return to being a bad example for her children? Maybe you're ambivalent.

to address your points in order:

I am not "defending" a victim mentality, but am pointing out that there are real structural inequalities that work to perpetuate financial/emotional oppression and often inhibit people from imagining how their lives could be different. This is not a defence, it is an analysis: it does not imply that murder or manslaughter is justified, nor does it condone willful wallowing in victimhood, co-dependency, or excuses for refusing responsibility.

I am merely pointing out that we all operate within the limits of our knowledge, our financial resources, etc etc etc...People with initiative/motivation and a generous measure of good luck can often transcend limitations by sheer effort. Those who don't have these characteristics stay stuck...I don't see that as a reason to judge them harshly...or at all. i am not a god. If they kill, they will be judged by courts, which also take mitigating circumstances into account if these exist.

There is a gulf of difference between condoning an illegal act and having compassion for the human fallibility of each and every one of us

I did not intend a cheap shot at you in what I said about Thai-farang relations...thought I made that clear. I have read men's testimony about such relationships and been deeply impressed by many men's evident ability to love deeply and well, and by the pleasure that many couples find in each other's company over many years ...as well as the respect, efforts to understand Thai culture etc. In fact that thread taught me a lot.

As for mentoring....hmmm....smacks a little too much of patronage and exploitation....George Dubie no doubt saw himself as a "mentor" in his role as god. However, if there were an equal partnership or a person was paying the mentor on a professional basis...ok.

You point out correctly that wealth disparity is not merely gendered. Of course it isn't... it's also a global and class-based inequality, (hence gay farang, gay Thai inequalities also impact on relationship formation & expectations, and ditto middle/upper income-earning women are potentially more empowered than an unemployed woman when it comes to choosing a partner) but nevertheless the gendered nature of the disparity in every culture is also a big issue and does impact strongly on the expectations that men and women bring to partnerships.

"Sex tourism" is not a way of describing individual proclivities but describes the "****fest", "women as commodity" mentality which many male posters to this forum have bragged is their reason for visiting/moving to Thailand. Certainly this description was not intended personally...and i regret any offence it may have caused.

I do not agree that "gender roles" are helpful at all...except in preserving a status quo. However, I do acknowledge that this is a tricky area...what applies to the west cannot and should not be imposed on or expected of another culture.

[BlackJack]

time now for a BIG group hug

[hawaiianeyes]

*Warning – “Poetry” Attempt Alert-please do not read the following if you are prone to advising other gentle forum posters to seek “help” or not to be so “stupid”)

Nam jai

For a man who bled to death

For those left behind who mourn

For those consumed with anger or remorse

For those obsessed with image or greed

For the children he lost or left

For a five year old child confused tonight

He traveled the “Whole Earth” to Chiang Mai

He had dreams, charm, intelligence and love

He pursued wealth, wives, women,

He treasured those few and kept them close,

He arranged, planned, dominated and inspired but

He was no god and Death stills us all

Violent deaths diminish us all

Let us live lives that matter

Choose paths in love and truth

Let us leave a legacy of peace

Nam jai

[thaimeup]

Hawaiianeyes, you don't sound like a bad soul, but it's definately time that you moved on.

[Loaded]

I can see how a guy like this could so easily manipulate some of the women that have posted on this thread - you're quite pathetic, living your life like hippy fairies dancing in a rose tinted world. You people need men because you're too bloody useless to survive without them supporting you.

Not one of you could be trusted in a position of responsibility because you'd always be focussing on emotion.

[fruittbatt]

I can see how a guy like this could so easily manipulate some of the women that have posted on this thread - you're quite pathetic, living your life like hippy fairies dancing in a rose tinted world. You people need men because you're too bloody useless to survive without them supporting you.

Not one of you could be trusted in a position of responsibility because you'd always be focussing on emotion.

thank you for your objective comments (not). How ironic that the loudest display of abusive and emotional ranting so far on this thread should come from someone who claims that WOMEN are emotional.

[BlackJack]

a little off the subject

and seems like he or she's been recently done over

[fruittbatt]

a little off the subject

and seems like he or she's been recently done over

yes, i think he must have had a close encounter with a very greedy fairy or something....guess that comes of wearing rose-colored glasses while carrying a big log on the shoulder at the same time :

Edited September 5, 2006 by fruittbatt

[Schooner]

It is frustrating to have a discussion about a topic and after reading so many flowery words not knowing where a person stands on an issue. I think that there are far too many people who hide behind a PC facade in order to avoid the pain of making a clear decision.

When you add to the mix the underlying love/hate that men and women have towards each other than it dosen't take much of a spark to set off a huge blaze.