Middle East conflict: Need for credible mediator

[arjunadawn]

JOEPUBLIC

If you accept that its ok to have foreign settlers come into your area, and then terrorize you, drive you out, and then declare your home their state, then you have no regard for justice and law. And if you disregard these justice and law, then it means that you cannot use these as a defense when the people you displaced come at you with all means necessary. You cant have it both ways

 

ARJUNADAWN

I see you used the word "area;" ok, agreed. However, prior to Jews coming to this area the local arabs were dominated and controlled by Britain. Prior to that the Turks. Prior to that it was Byzantium. Prior to that Rome. There is nearly an unbroken line of NOT Palestine stretching into antiquity. Why now does history so pivot on the Jews?

 

My personal angst is, as I DO wrestle with this issue, I see your point! State or no state, the peoples of that area were displaced and rail against it today. I too would also use any means. But dispassionately, removed from the imperative to act, I would like to intellectually apprehend what a real solution would look like. They are both there now. Israel cannot be undone unless a third diaspora and... well, you know the rest.

[khunken]

 

Of course there was no Palestine.

Now you've got it. If the Arabs had not starting attacking the Jews, everyone would be living where they started, but the UN had to step in and come up with a two state solution, which the Jews accepted and the Arabs refused. They have caused most of their problems themselves and they seem to never learn from their mistakes.

 

 

Out comes the propaganda & lies again.

 

If the Jews had not slaughtered and driven out millions of Palestinians, there would have been no reason for any of the wars. The two-state 'solution' accepted by Israel was never accepted by the Arabs (irrelevant) nor the Palestinians (relevant) because the UN proposal was never used by any of the pro-Israel 'negotiators'.

 

The US has never been an honest go-between with the AIPAC extremists looking over their shoulder. It was nearly there when Jimmie Carter actually ignored them and almost got a final solution. But he had the advantage of having a much less racist Israeli leadership to deal with.

 

There was also no Israel too before 1948 which you dishonestly clipped from my post.
 

[Ulysses G.]

Complaining about Iran having the technology to make electricity from nuclear power

That's it. They want to keep Iran from discovering electricity. 

[Ulysses G.]

If the Jews had not slaughtered and driven out millions of Palestinians, there would have been no reason for any of the wars.

You mean after the Palestinians declared war on them and attacked with 5 huge Arab armies helping them out? Shame on the Israelis for fighting back and winning decisively. 

[arjunadawn]

If you fail to accept the carnage and criminality behind the current slaughter you will have to face the fact that Israel is fast on the road to become a pariah state.

One rule for them and another for the rest.
Complaining about Iran having the technology to make electricity from nuclear power and demanding acess to UN inspectors but denying the fact they are the only nuclear power in the Middle East with the facility at Dimona.

Israel is a bully that wants the world to feel sorry for it while it kills hundreds of innocent civilians every day.

 

Israel has never had the sympathy of the world, hardly anyone ever supports Israel. It is therefore beyond credulity that Israel now solicits the world to see its plight. I do not recall news feeds condemning the various and always onslaught of terror attacks and missiles into Israel. I cannot reconcile the fact that all other Arabs/Muslims want Israel destroyed; ostensibly its asserted to support the local arabs but its not- its their imperative to hate Jews. So, while valid points may be made about the inequality of attacking Israel versus Israeli responses, skipping context is intellectual mutiny.

 

Israel is trying to survive and whether local arabs have a valid claim or not, the threat against Israel incorporates them, but also extends greatly beyond them. This reality informs Israel's institutional/military memory. You turn on the news this week and are aghast. Israel turns on the news each day witnessing similar treachery designed to destroy them. Were I not so aware how very much all Muslims want Israel destroyed, irrespective of the local arab issue, I might be inclined to waiver to the arab side of the equation. (Its truly a valid underdog argument and the grievance is palpable). However, even before there was a Jewish state these same regional actors signed on with Adolf Hitler to extinguish the Jews. (Indeed, recently the Nazi flag was flying near or on the Temple Mount).This hardly reinforces the point that the local arab issue is the prime mover in the region! It is pretext.

[khunken]

 

If the Jews had not slaughtered and driven out millions of Palestinians, there would have been no reason for any of the wars.

You mean after the Palestinians declared war on them and attacked with 5 huge Arab armies helping them out? Shame on the Israelis for fighting back and winning decisively. 

 

 

Yep those 5 Palestinian armies were soooooo powerful. The Palestinians were slaughtered and kicked out of their lands before any of the wars. The wars happened after - or is this too hard for you to take? Why distort history? Israeli propaganda from some hateful site?
 

[Ulysses G.]

If the Jews had not slaughtered and driven out millions of Palestinians, there would have been no reason for any of the wars.

You mean after the Palestinians declared war on them and attacked with 5 huge Arab armies helping them out? Shame on the Israelis for fighting back and winning decisively. 

 
Yep those 5 Palestinian armies were soooooo powerful. The Palestinians were slaughtered and kicked out of their lands before any of the wars. The wars happened after - or is this too hard for you to take?

Have you been getting your "history" from science fiction films about alternative universes? Most of the Palestinians fled immediately before war was declared, when it was in progress and after they lost. Very few were killed before it started, compared to afterwards.

[Ulysses G.]

 

 

If the Jews had not slaughtered and driven out millions of Palestinians, there would have been no reason for any of the wars.

You mean after the Palestinians declared war on them and attacked with 5 huge Arab armies helping them out? Shame on the Israelis for fighting back and winning decisively. 

 

 
Yep those 5 Palestinian armies were soooooo powerful.

 

They LOST, if that is your point.

[dr_lucas]

 

 

If the Jews had not slaughtered and driven out millions of Palestinians, there would have been no reason for any of the wars.

You mean after the Palestinians declared war on them and attacked with 5 huge Arab armies helping them out? Shame on the Israelis for fighting back and winning decisively. 

 

 

Yep those 5 Palestinian armies were soooooo powerful. The Palestinians were slaughtered and kicked out of their lands before any of the wars. The wars happened after - or is this too hard for you to take? Why distort history? Israeli propaganda from some hateful site?
 

 

 

He distorts history? You gotta be kidding. You completely rewrote it.

It was exactly the opposite. The Arabs were hunting down the Jews in then then-called Palestine region (a more or less combined land of where Israel and Jordan are today):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZY8m0cm1oY

 

 

But, don't let the facts get in your way.

[Jay Sata]

I was wondering what Glen Beck has been doing after being fired for being so loopy he was too right wing for Fox News

I suspect he has been posting on here along with Sarah Palin the other US fruitcake.

I look at some of the amazing number of posts clocked up by some on this forum and wonder what life there exists beyond cyberspace!

[dexterm]

A substantial number of the so called settlers and right wingers are newcomers to Israel under its so called right to return.

If you listen to some of the spokesmen you will identify an American accent as they or their parents were previously US nationals

Now I ask the pro Zionists why is it OK for a a person with Jewish ancestry to return to Israel but not one with Arab roots?

Where I come from that is discrimination akin to the Boers in South Africa.

 

Israel apologists often boast that Israel is a democracy with 20% Israeli Arab citizens, but they don't tell you that Israeli Jews can marry who they like  even non Jews and bring them to live in Israel, but Israeli Arabs cannot under the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law

 

which the editor of Haaretz found very disquieting

 

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/citizenship-law-makes-israel-an-apartheid-state-1.248635

[Ulysses G.]

Israeli Jews can marry who they like  even non Jews and bring them to live in Israel

Yet another blatant LIE. Jewish Israelis are subject to the exact same law and have the exact same restrictions. It is right there on your link for anyone to see. It does not seem to bother you at all that time after time your flagrant deceptions are exposed as you keep posting them over and over again anyway.
 
Has anyone noticed how many of the Israel hater's posts turn out to be complete fabrications and how most of the pro-Israel sides posts are pretty much 100% accurate?

[joepublic]

 

 

 

It is easier to achieve peace in the region than that. Just cease All US support for Israel. End.

That would make very little difference - other than allow Israel to take a harder line against the terrorists. Israels GDP is about 250 billion per year and the USA gives them about 3 billion per year in military support which is pretty much all spent on American military supplies. Israel could easily survive without it, if they had to.

 

 

No, it is impossible. How can Jewish controlled US not support Israel? Oh well, hold on for a moment, it already happened at least once that Jews did something against Jews. At the end of Second World War II, the Allies, so the US or in other words the jewish controlled US, was instrumental in bringing many Nazi leaders to US controlled South-America. So business-savy Jews did save Jews-killers. Should we call these american jews now anti-semite? 55555...

 

Actually "Jew hatred" was much stronger in the U.S. in previous times. The U.S. did not act honorably to help European Jewish refugees during WW2. In previous times, Jews, like blacks, were not allowed to join many social clubs, and there were strict "Jew quotas" at elite universities. My own father felt the need to change his Jew name to find any employment in his professional field as Jews were simply not hired at that time in his field. That's all in the past now but interestingly now some people complain that Asians are too successful in elite university admissions if judge only on merit. 

 

Many people, including me, don't think it is a coincidence that the emergence of the strong and proud Jewish state was very helpful into reducing Jew hatred in the USA. 

 

As far as American political support for Israel, I think that will lessen somewhat over time due to demographic changes (largely more Latinos), but overall will remain strong and and any weakening will not be determinate in the survival of Israel either way. Israel in that region will remain vulnerable certainly for all of our lifetimes. 

 

This Jew hatred was from Europeans - but the Palestinians paid the price. 

[Ulysses G.]

This Jew hatred was from Europeans - but the Palestinians paid the price.

Actually. Palestinian Arabs were attacking Palestinian Jews long before the Germans were and they were staunch allies during WW2. There is plenty of blame to go around.

[Jingthing]

This Jew hatred was from Europeans - but the Palestinians paid the price. 

 

Actually you've got your history wrong. Also you should be well aware that Judeophobia is at EXTREME LEVELS in the Middle East.  Israel has no choice but to have a strong military in such an environment.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U1FyRdUves

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy3aDIatrY0

[Asiantravel]

 

Israeli Jews can marry who they like  even non Jews and bring them to live in Israel

Yet another blatant LIE. Jewish Israelis are subject to the exact same law and have the exact same restrictions. It is right there on your link for anyone to see. It does not seem to bother you at all that time after time your flagrant deceptions are exposed as you keep posting them over and over again anyway.
 
Has anyone noticed how many of the Israel hater's posts turn out to be complete fabrications and how most of the pro-Israel sides posts are pretty much 100% accurate?

 

 

Drink  the Kool-Aid
 

[Ulysses G.]

Judging by your posts, you seem to have chugged it all down already. 

[Morch]

 

What is needed it a total ceasation of support for Israel until they stop the onslaught of Palestinians' withdraw out of and end the blockade of Gaza. Mediators are useless until this occours. However we still have clowns trying to stoke the fire from the otherside of the planet.

"Meanwhile, the US Congress approved $US225 million ($A243 million) on Friday to restock the Iron Dome systems with interceptor missiles. The measure awaits Obama's signature".

It worked in South Africa and in the end it will work with Israel.

In the UK the CoOp supermarkets no longer stock West Bank products and Tesco, the UKs largest supermarket chain, says it will no longer sell products originating from the West Bank, starting this September.

 

 

Wonder how this ban will effect Palestinians working in Israeli factories on the West Bank....
 

[Morch]

I’ll be the mediator. I’ll have peace there in 12 months...

 

What if on 12^th June Israeli had chosen the diplomatic rather than military option?

 

...when the 3 Israeli teens were kidnapped and murdered, police had launched a regular homicide investigation, as they did when the Israeli Arab boy was kidnapped and burnt to death ...they had 2 suspect in mind already on day one, because they bulldozed part of their homes..

 

...at the same time with the rockets reduced to a trickle (2 in 2 weeks), Israel had turned to the new unity PA/Hamas government, and said “Look, if no more rockets fall in the next month, we will ease the Gaza blockade allowing an increase in XYZ goods. If no more rockets fall over the next 3 months, we will ease the blockade further and release some Palestinian prisoners. If no more rockets fall over the next 6 months, we will release more prisoners, ease the blockade further and sit down to discuss peace without preconditions; may be a long haul, but lets make a start. If no more rockets fall over the next 12 months, we will lift the blockade completely, but reserve the right to inspect goods entering Gaza.”

 

..and 1600 Palestinians and 63 young Israeli soldiers would have been sitting down for a meal with their families and loved ones on a peaceful, balmy Mediterranean summer's evening.

 

Shalom.

 

 

More to do with Jurisdiction, the Arab boy's body was found within Israel's borders. The kidnapping of the Israeli boys was in the West Bank, which is not part of Israel.

 

The houses of suspects were not bulldozed on day one.

 

There was no unity PA/Hamas government. Trying to present the reconciliation deal as anything resembling a done deal is plain misleading. In fact, part of the Hamas eagerness for a fight had to do with the crisis the reconciliation deal got into - and this was mostly over PA unwilling to pick up Hamas's tab and pay its bills (mostly salaries).

 

Hamas does not accept Israeli inspections of all goods and does not agree to monitoring of dual use materials in the Gaza Strip.

 

Making up an idiosyncratic course of events with fantasy details is not going to produce any solution to the conflict.

[Morch]

 

 

Arrest the Israel government heads and put them before a war tribunal. They have been killing thousands of innocent lifes and are responsible for the plight of the Palestinians. They are on the equal level like all the other extremists terrorists. No need to negotiate with these criminals!

 

Wow! You have really changed your tune in 24 hours. Yesterday, you were claiming that "love" would solve everything.

 

 

Yes - no one who looks at the pictures of children, dead, disfigured, mutilated, and IDF soldiers carrying out summary executions on orphans, can believe love will work.

Love requires humanity.

We are dealing with humans who have lost their humanity, because of decades of living in fear, because of the crimes they committed.

 

Only the usual suspects can look at the footage from Gaza, and not break down in tears. 

 

Instead they crack open a beer in the evening and cheer explosions in Gaza, or chant "No more children" when Palestinian schools are hit.

 

 

Lovely brush strokes there.  Do you actually know many "usual suspects" on this forum cracking a beer and the acting like the rest of the nonsense posted?
 

[Morch]

 

 

...at the same time with the rockets reduced to a trickle (2 in 2 weeks),

You still trying to sell that shtick? As you have been told many times. There were plenty of rockets before and after. You don't seem to realize that honesty is the best policy. 

 

 

 

I didn't say before and after [that fortnight](your words nor mine).. I said 2 weeks before 12th June, the date all this mayhem started. That's a fact.

 

Up to that date there were the beginnings of a detente, rockets had reduced to a trickle (2 that fell harmlessly), with PA on board a unity government Hamas's polemic could have been moderated in any peace negotiations.

 

 

You mean the same Hamas who said nothing about recognizing Israel or stopping the armed fight against Israel, as part of this reconciliation effort? Or are you talking about the Hamas who refused to relinquish control over its military wing? Did the Hamas mention anything about participating in peace negotiations with Israel?

 

Perhaps it would have been the PA's getting more radicalized,eh?
 

[Morch]

 

 

Zionist != Jew

Semite != Jew

AntiSemite != anti Jew

 

 

That's totally ridiculous.

The vast majority of Jews support the existence of Israel.

While I agree not all Jews identify as Zionists, anti-Zionists generally do not accept the existence of Israel. 

Antisemitism refers ONLY to Jews. That is the DEFINITION. There is no argument about a set definition except with dictionary writers. 

 

 

Sorry but absolute and entire rubbish!

 

Most anti-Zionists do accept the existence of Israel. Just look at what people say in the West. And in case you haven't noticed yet look at the anti-zionist movement in Israel. Do you think these people are not accepting the existence of Israel?

 

Your mindset is very rigid and one of the Zionists: in case you are against something Israel is doing you are anti-semite. In case you are anti-zionist you are anti-semite. Total rubbish!

 

Remember: most people in this world are totally against Israel's bombing of Gaza and I believe most of them are anti-Zionist as well. But at the same time they do recognize Israel! Can't you understand that people can accept the existence of Israel but at the same time be critical what the extremist majority of Israelis are up to? Is that so difficult?

 

 

Could you expand on the so-called anti-zionist movement in Israel and what public support it commands?
 

[Morch]

I applaud Mr Dorsey's article which is a very good analysis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

 

He is absolutely right about a credible mediator. Actually two are needed, one to get the current killing to stop (not just another cease-fire) and another to negotiate a real two-state solution. Previously Egypt filled the first need but it's current rulers are not acceptable to Hamas unsurprisingly, given their violent dispatch of the elected government there who were aligned with Hamas. No one has filled the second need due to Israel's insistence of a pro-Israeli negotiator, although Carter came close to being a rare fair-minded arbitrator.

 

It is unlikely that Israel's extreme right-wing rulers will ever be a credible party to negotiation. Still the current strong moves by Avaaz and other activist groups to get western companies to stop fuelling the settlements is a start. As Mr Dorsey says, Israel is winning the military battle but losing the diplomatic one.

 

Nicely minimized the article as dealing only with Israel.

[rhythmworx]

This has been going on since I was born.

 

Let them kill each other it's nothing to do with us.

 

Yes it's wrong but how many other conflicts weren't wrong?

 

Name one.

[Morch]

What Israel needs is a centrist coalition to resolve their issues not the extreme right wing warmongers like Netanyahu.

I see none of the regular defenders of the Zionists who run the country can accept or concede the death toll being broadcast around the world.

 

The current government includes two center parties, which hold 7 out of 22 ministries (and 25 out of 120 parliament seats). So far the have been keeping real quiet on the Gaza situation, probably do not want to scare away their center-right voters.

 

There were not enough parliament seats for creating a viable center/left coalition, not without paying some serious political blood money for religious parties (which oppose center/left legislation and ideals on other fronts, anyway). That is without taking into account personal rivalries and other issues.

 

Israel might need a different coalition, but it is not as if there is some impressive leadership on the center/left parties, and they simply do not have enough support to make this a reality.

[Morch]

So, Israel won't accept the United Nations or the United States (its closest ally and protector) or any of its neighbors as credible mediators. 

 

Normally, disputes such as these would be resolved in the UN. But Israel and its apologists want you to believe that there is a vast conspiracy against Israel at the UN.  Israel and its apologists will point to the multiple resolutions against Israel over the years as their "evidence".  They conveniently neglect to mention that these resolutions were due to illegal, immoral and inhumane activity perpetrated by Israel--whether it be illegal settlements, illegal blockades or the flat out murder of innocent women and children.

 

The US has repeatedly acted as a mediator in the past whenever Israel found itself in yet another war.  But now Israel won't accept this option because the deck is not stacked as it has been in the past.  With the current US president, there is a slight chance at a fair mediation process, and this is just not acceptable to Israel.

 

In Africa it is quite common for warring nations to select another African nation to act as a mediator to resolve conflicts and disputes.  Needless to say, Israel can't do this because it has been in a near continual state of war with its neighbors for over sixty years.

 

Does anyone else get the feeling that Israel is the only credible mediator that Israel would accept?  It's time to end this charade and just state plainly and clearly that Israel is not at all interested in a mediated peace plan.

 

 

You would expect people to believe that a UN body like the UNHRC is nothing but biased? Seriously?

Even the UN Chief had issues with their resolutions, and there were quite a lot of them - nearly half of their

country specific resolutions have to do with Israel. Not as is there's a shortage of other human rights issues

out there, right? To claim that Israel deserves that much of this body's attention is quite disingenuous. You

are welcome to check how much time the same body dedicated to other human rights crisis situations, and

specifically those relating to Muslim countries.

 

The same UNHRC's special rapporteur post charged with investigating relevant issues is the only one with

indefinite term (most are one year, if memory serves), and at least on two occasions it was said that the mandate

given was to investigate Israeli infractions, not Palestinian.

 

So noooo....no bias whatsoever.

 

And in the same vein as another poster - not much attention given to the parts of the article dealing with the

Palestinians (or even, for that matter with the Hamas).
 

[Morch]

 

 

See, this is a level-headed post. I don't agree with it but from this position dialogue could be made. The posts on TV, regarding this issue, really do reflect the general issues facing the parties in the middle east, albeit, I hope, lacking the loathing. If the Zionists formulated a plan, in direct opposition to.. what? Judaism, and I presume leveraged the British and others to facilitate the land grab, who's land did they take? They certainly may have moved to land owned and farmed by, say, the great grandparents of someone now in a camp, but who's land? What state? What identity of people were impacted?

 

My point is there is none. Yes, real people are aggrieved, but the notion that Palestine and necessarily Palestinians were an independent people living in a sovereign Palestinian state is poppycock. This revision of history has happened gradually since the PLO/PFLP decided to create a political arm. Palestine is an ancient name for a region of the Levant. It has defined various geography over millennia, as Jews, Christians, infidels, and muslims various controlled the "region." The recent appellation was with the British Palestine Mandate approximately 100 years ago. Prior to that the land was more or less Syrian. At this point one should consider the various agreements and declarations with respect to Arab independence and a Jewish homeland. Restating these points here is not helpful. But they do set the framework for the current issues. When considering these contemporary foundational documents it is clear it was recognized that not all areas in the Palestine Mandate were all Arab, or all Muslim, and accordingly were clearly stated would not be afforded the agreement of Arab Independence at the cessation of hostilities. Enter the Hogarth Memo and Balfour Declaration.

 

Insofar as Arabs attacked Israel repeatedly and lost land as a consequence, in accordance with countless examples of warfare through history, so too the Ottoman Empire aligned with axis powers during WWI and lost land as a consequence; no new behavior or unusual post-war arrangements. Designed to either claim bounty or reparations possessing land to lessen future assaults is an unusual and quite humane approach to the spoils of war (1967, 1972). The Treaty of Sèvres fully set the stage for the current issue, but it was a treaty, and was thus ratified accordingly. There was no State of Palestine then or prior!

 

 

If you accept that its ok to have foreign settlers come into your area, and then terrorize you, drive you out, and then declare your home their state, then you have no regard for justice and law. And if you disregard these justice and law, then it means that you cannot use these as a defense when the people you displaced come at you with all means necessary. You cant have it both ways

 

 

So, accepting a UN resolution declaring the creation of Israel amounts to "no regard for justice and law".

Seems like you actually can have it both ways, or at least try to.

[Morch]

A substantial number of the so called settlers and right wingers are newcomers to Israel under its so called right to return.

If you listen to some of the spokesmen you will identify an American accent as they or their parents were previously US nationals

Now I ask the pro Zionists why is it OK for a a person with Jewish ancestry to return to Israel but not one with Arab roots?

Where I come from that is discrimination akin to the Boers in South Africa.

 

Is it allowed for Jews with roots in Arab countries to return there?

[rhythmworx]

You might think differently when they come flocking en masse to your country to get free housing.

 

Fuck em they have been killing each other for years let them carry on.

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory, racist and posts which are simply untrue have been deleted along with replies.