180 Baht Charges for ATM.

[jpinx]

I know my Visa credit card (from a CU) charges no cash advance fee and no foreign transaction fee, only a finance charge 2% above the rate on normal purchases. So if I make a withdrawal at an ATM (subject to the 150 or 180B fee being discussed in this thread), and go online to pay off the balance immediately, other than that fee to the bank that owns the ATM, I pay no fees (well, actually, possibly one day's finance charge depending on timing; and I don't see why I couldn't actually make the online transfer BEFORE I go to the ATM), and get whatever exchange rate Visa is giving, which I expect is going to be at least as good as what I'd get at any exchange window, and probably better. (I would of course turn down the "Dynamic Currency Conversion" if offered by the ATM.)

The main fly in the ointment for me is the risk involved with the use of a credit card in a Thai ATM...

Agreed -- it is well worth using ATM's in at least semi-secure locations like the malls. Unfortunately most banks tend to put their ATM's out on the street - available for scammers to fiddle with at night. Given the recently discovered super-slim skimmers now in use, it is very difficult to know if there's a skimmer in the slot or not. I avoid touristy areas too -- that seems to be the main hunting ground of skimmers.

There's been plenty of mention of the option to walk into the bank with your passport (which you are meant to carry always anyway) and your card, and do a withdrawal over the counter with no fee involved. I'd only say this -- I've been shooed out by bank staff telling me to go and use the ATM outside sometimes, and I have also read reports (admittedly some time ago) of the bank staff taking a quick copy of your card for future "personal" use.

The ultimate answer is a card with a very low limit, which you can "overfill" by transferring from your regular account a couple of days prior to your intended cash withdrawal. That covers the cash withdrawal problem but possibly not purchases made by the errant copier.

Security is very difficult. I confess to accepting a certain risk level and as long as I am comfortable with that I won't change, but I keep my eyes and ears open for new problems and keep looking for options to mitigate them.

Edited August 24, 2014 by jpinx

[Pib]

The great majority of Thai and western card-issuing banks/companies apply cash advance fees for "credit cards;" however, the local ATM Use fee in country XYZ (i.e., Bt150/180 like Thai ATMs charge on most foreign cards) that fee is purely up to that local ATM operator like how we've already seen the various withdrawal fees applied by different Thai ATMs. Now when that ATM withdrawal of say Bt30K hits you home country bank account that's when the card-issuing bank applies whatever fees it may apply like a cash advance fee with a credit card, a foreign transaction fee of X% or X flat amount for debit or credit cards, etc.

Then of course Visa/Mastercard applied their currency conversion fee in the 0.15 to 1% range depending on the service agreement they have with the card-issuing bank (most likely 1%), but whether your card-issuing bank passes that fee along to you or absorbs it (a true no foreign transaction fee card will absorb it) is totally up the the card-issuing bank. And where I mentioned "most likely 1%", well, the card network may only apply a 0.2% fee under its agreement with the card-issuing bank but the card-issuing bank just decides rather than absorbing that fee or sounding nit-picky in passing along to the customer such a small fee they will just round it up to 1% by establishing a 1% foreign transaction fee on the card (like quite a few banks charge) and make a 0.8% profit in the deal. Banksters need to eat to....some more than others.

So, there can be a front-in ATM fee, the card network (Visa/Mastercard) fee, and your card-issuing home country bank fee--three sets of fees possibly hitting you. Only when you can get a no foreign transaction fee debit card that also reimburses a local ATM fee like a Schwab debit card, use a no foreign transaction fee debit card to do a counter withdrawal to bypass the local ATM fee, or do a counter withdrawal with a no foreign transaction and no cash advance fee credit card where you payoff the cash advance immediately at the card's website to avoid interest charges like with a Pentagon Federal Credit Union credit card can a person escape card fees. I mention these two cards because I use both them, not to imply they are the only two such U.S.cards with these benefits...there are some other such U.S. debit/credit cards but they are definitely in the minority of all cards.

So much depends on the fee and reimbursement terms and conditions of a person's card. A person really needs to fully understand those terms and conditions before using his cards, especially when in a foreign country, during a cash advance, etc.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

As for counter withdrawal turnaways, credit cards seem to draw that less often that debit cards do.

And, if the amount you're requesting via counter withdrawal is larger than that bank's ATM withdrawal limit, that seems to help also.

But as with most things pertaining to Thai banking, from branch to branch and bank to bank, YMMV.

[Pib]

As for counter withdrawal turnaways, credit cards seem to draw that less often that debit cards do.

And, if the amount you're requesting via counter withdrawal is larger than that bank's ATM withdrawal limit, that seems to help also.

But as with most things pertaining to Thai banking, from branch to branch and bank to bank, YMMV.

Amen Brother! The particular Bangkok Bank branch I use for my credit card counter withdrawals won't accept debit cards...they just point you to their ATMs...but they gladly do credit cards. However, quite a few other ThaiVisa posts exists where people walked into their Bangkok Bank branch and had no problem using their debit card for a counter withdrawal. Like we've read in so many posts, policies can vary from branch to branch within the same banking company.

Plus with my credit card I can withdraw up to $2,000 daily in baht versus my debit cards which have a $1,000 daily limit. Right after the credit card withdrawal, I come home, log onto my credit card account, and make payment in full...even before the transaction hits my account which is usually the next business day. I use the Visa exchange rate webpage to see the current exchange rate and base my payment on that rate plus an extra few dollars in case the rate goes down a little the next business day or two when the credit card transaction finally clears/posts. Sometimes my estimated payment leaves me with a few dollars credit, sometimes I need to make another payment for a few dollars...but I've never racked up one penny of interest after doing around 6 or 7 such counter withdrawals over the past 3 or 4 months...and absolutely not other fees. I could probably make the payment even before doing the withdrawal but I would rather no just in case the counter transaction fails for whatever reason...then I got a big credit on my credit card balance which I would prefer not to have.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On the issue of using credit cards to make no-fee cash advances, it looks like active and retired military personnel and their family members have a decent option in the Navy Federal Credit Union's GOREWARDS MasterCard credit card.

https://www.navyfederal.org/products-services/cards/creditcards/gorewards.php

Based on the website above, it appears this NFCU credit card has no foreign currency fee, and no cash advance fees when used for a bank counter withdrawal. So, it appears the card could be used fee-free for counter withdrawals, similar to the various Pentagon Federal CU credit cards.

However, the NFCU disclosures do say they would charge a $1 cash advance fee for an international ATM cash advance, which of course also would incur the Thai banks' 180 baht fee -- which we're trying to avoid in the first place. And, a slight demerit, in that because it's a MasterCard logo card, it will have a slightly lower exchange rate than comparable VISA cards.

Unlike PFCU, Navy FCU is not open to the general public. But its field of membership is pretty broad in terms of anyone who has a current or past connection to the U.S. DOD and the various military branches, including their extended family members.

Thanks to the TV member who provided the tip about this Navy FCU card.

PS - It looks like NFCU also offers a VISA Signature Flagship Regards credit card with those two same key features - no foreign currency fee and no cash advance fee for counter withdrawals. But the VISA card does have a $49 annual fee.

https://www.navyfederal.org/products-services/cards/creditcards/flagship.php

Edited August 25, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

PS - There is also a VISA card version of the NFCU GoRewards credit card, though it's kind of hard to tell from the NFCU website which version they're offering right now for new accounts. So if interested, check with the credit union.

[connda]

Whilst Thai banks might not differentiate between credit and debit cards, for sure the home banks do, as I found to my cost.! Credit cards get hit with "cash advance fees", but debit cards get hammered with a very much larger "foreign use fee". I think the banks rely on their interest charges on cash advances on credit cards withdrawals, but I short-circuit that simply by depositing the required amount into the credit card account online a few days before withdrawing the cash. I still get the "cash advance fee" but no interest charges.

None of this impinges on the Thai ATM transaction - I just pay the 180Baht at YellowBank and get 30k. I haven't found any Thai bank ATM that has a 30K upper limit and 150Baht fee.

If you're getting hammered by your bank for a "foreign use fee", I'd suggest finding a bank that doesn't have that fee. They're out there.

[jpinx]

Whilst Thai banks might not differentiate between credit and debit cards, for sure the home banks do, as I found to my cost.! Credit cards get hit with "cash advance fees", but debit cards get hammered with a very much larger "foreign use fee". I think the banks rely on their interest charges on cash advances on credit cards withdrawals, but I short-circuit that simply by depositing the required amount into the credit card account online a few days before withdrawing the cash. I still get the "cash advance fee" but no interest charges.

None of this impinges on the Thai ATM transaction - I just pay the 180Baht at YellowBank and get 30k. I haven't found any Thai bank ATM that has a 30K upper limit and 150Baht fee.

If you're getting hammered by your bank for a "foreign use fee", I'd suggest finding a bank that doesn't have that fee. They're out there.

Or -- as in my case of having had the same bank for almost 50 years -- find a way around your banks services that better suits you - and use them "creatively"

[Pib]

I've got multiple U.S. bank and credit card company accounts (probably too many...need to close a couple), but I have multiple accounts simply because I have yet to find one bank/company that provides the best savings interest rates, lowest card rates, best no foreign transaction fee/cash-back credit and debit cards, lowest fees across the board, and just the best around products/services. A one-stop shop so to speak. Plus, I want some redundancy in case the bank/company changes policies out of the blue...like all of certain deciding to charge a foreign transaction fee on its cards.

So, to get the best all around deal "for me" I use multiple bank/company accounts. Maybe it's kinda like not having on my eggs in one basket.

[Tuskfish]

I've never used Western Union...

At first glance on their website it seems to be a much more expensive option?

It says $60 to transfer from Australia to Thailand

[Langsuan Man]

I've never used Western Union...

At first glance on their website it seems to be a much more expensive option?

It says $60 to transfer from Australia to Thailand

That is why you won't find many here recommending using it for International transfers

[Pib]

I've never used Western Union...

At first glance on their website it seems to be a much more expensive option?

It says $60 to transfer from Australia to Thailand

That is why you won't find many here recommending using it for International transfers

Well, you do see a few people say they use WU (or PayPal) to get money into Thailand quickly followed by several posts asking "Why?" due to the high fees and/or low exchange rate. Usually it's the low WU or PayPal exchange rate (a indirect/hidden fee) that eats your lunch.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

I've never used Western Union...

At first glance on their website it seems to be a much more expensive option?

It says $60 to transfer from Australia to Thailand

That is why you won't find many here recommending using it for International transfers

Well, you do see a few people say they use WU (or PayPal) to get money into Thailand quickly followed by several posts asking "Why?" due to the high fees and/or low exchange rate. Usually it's the low WU or PayPal exchange rate (a indirect/hidden fee) that eats your lunch.

There are some instances where Western Union is a viable solution.

An overall rate of 52.10446348258706... is not bad.

[4evermaat]

The only advantage to using Western union is immediacy. Bitcoin may change that in the near future.

Military-affiliated banks and credit unions tend to be the most overseas friendly in terms of atm fees, withdraw limits, and counter withdraw availability.

[Langsuan Man]

The only advantage to using Western union is immediacy. Bitcoin may change that in the near future.

Military-affiliated banks and credit unions tend to be the most overseas friendly in terms of atm fees, withdraw limits, and counter withdraw availability.

That statement sure doesn't apply to USAA Savings Bank with their foreign currency exchange fee for both their ATM and Credit cards

[4evermaat]

The only advantage to using Western union is immediacy. Bitcoin may change that in the near future.

Military-affiliated banks and credit unions tend to be the most overseas friendly in terms of atm fees, withdraw limits, and counter withdraw availability.

That statement sure doesn't apply to USAA Savings Bank with their foreign currency exchange fee for both their ATM and Credit cards

1% flat foreign transaction fee with Atm fee reimbursement sounds reasonable to me. Did it go up?

I remember losing my card and it cost $8 to have a replacement fedex-ed.

[Langsuan Man]

The only advantage to using Western union is immediacy. Bitcoin may change that in the near future.

Military-affiliated banks and credit unions tend to be the most overseas friendly in terms of atm fees, withdraw limits, and counter withdraw availability.

That statement sure doesn't apply to USAA Savings Bank with their foreign currency exchange fee for both their ATM and Credit cards

1% flat foreign transaction fee with Atm fee reimbursement sounds reasonable to me. Did it go up?

I remember losing my card and it cost $8 to have a replacement fedex-ed.

Not as reasonable as No Foreign Transaction Fee that many other cards offer

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

It seems the military affiliated entities have some good credit card offerings -- examples being Pentagon Federal, Navy Federal and some others.

But for debit cards, the best deals aren't with the military affiliated entities, generally speaking. Instead, places like Charles Schwab, Fidelity, State Farm, etc... Though one military affiliated credit union debit card that reimburses both ATM and foreign currency fees is from Service Credit Union.

The no cash advance/no foreign currency fee credit cards work for those who want to do counter withdrawals.

The no foreign currency fee / Thai ATM fee reimbursing debit cards work for those who want to do ATM cash withdrawals.

Edited August 28, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[4evermaat]

The only advantage to using Western union is immediacy. Bitcoin may change that in the near future.

Military-affiliated banks and credit unions tend to be the most overseas friendly in terms of atm fees, withdraw limits, and counter withdraw availability.

That statement sure doesn't apply to USAA Savings Bank with their foreign currency exchange fee for both their ATM and Credit cards

1% flat foreign transaction fee with Atm fee reimbursement sounds reasonable to me. Did it go up?

I remember losing my card and it cost $8 to have a replacement fedex-ed.

Not as reasonable as No Foreign Transaction Fee that many other cards offer

How many banks actually offer this fee-free atm debit or credit card? What are the requirements to sign up at the bank?

I think a new thread should be launched specifically to keep track of foreign cards ATM fee-free and low-fee banks, organized by country. Also track the fees of the different Thai bank ATMs as well as the withdraw limits. The first post of that thread should be organized and updated to keep track of the information. Currently this is all scattered in bits and pieces throughout the forums.

I'm sure TallGuyJohnInBkk could head this up. Something like "Foreigner's fee guide to withdrawing at Thai ATMs"

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

This is the last time I updated the list of U.S. financial accounts ...about one year ago.... Some things, such as AEON ATM references, are now invalid. But most of the U.S. account info is probably still pretty much correct.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/654140-best-no-fee-low-fee-bank-cards-for-americans-2013/page-6#entry6696904

This was my most recent attempt at a recap of the Thai ATMs situation, just a few days back and earlier in this thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/752565-180-baht-charges-for-atm/page-8#entry8288286

If I can get around to updating the U.S. accounts list I linked above, I'll probably do it in that thread, which is specifically titled about low and no fee U.S. debit card accounts.

The account options for non-U.S. folks is a more daunting task that I'll leave to others from those other countries.

Edited August 28, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[hawker9000]

There are a few websites that try and survey the credit card universe, and present competitive ratings & pros & cons (as well as card requirements, required affiliations if any, etc.). Just do a google search - not hard to find. This might help get you started:

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=credit+card+ratings

You could alternatively search for cards in a specific country with specific fee criteria, etc. Plenty of ways to skin the cat. Most people would probably start with the banks or financial institutions, insurance companies, social organizations, etc., etc. etc. with whom they already do business or are already members. Many of the financial institutions will have a menu of credit & debit card programs to choose from, with comparison charts and lots & lots of disclosure. If nothing quite fits your needs, then go to the ratings websites and do some looking around.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Reconfirmed today - Thai Military Bank (TMB) is still good for 30K withdrawals and a 150b fee for VISA debit card transactions.

[Ling Kae]

Reconfirmed today - Thai Military Bank (TMB) is still good for 30K withdrawals and a 150b fee for VISA debit card transactions.

Yep, reconfirmed again today, did it myself at a TMB ATM. Not bad really, only $5 USD for a 30K withdrawal.

[jpinx]

I did that too - but I forgot to double check the upper limit -- I just dialled in 30,000. Next time I'll ask for more and see what it says

[Pib]

I did that too - but I forgot to double check the upper limit -- I just dialled in 30,000. Next time I'll ask for more and see what it says

If I remember right it will say on one of the screens in bold letters the max withdrawal is Bt30K.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Pib, I don't recall ever getting/seeing that particular message on TMB's ATMs....

I have seen that same kind of message on some other banks' ATMs, including AEON (a non-bank) as best as I can recall.

But I believe TMB ATMs do have a menu button in their withdrawal screen that allows you to select 30K just with one button press, instead of having to manually key in the amount.

[jpinx]

Pib, I don't recall ever getting/seeing that particular message on TMB's ATMs....

I have seen that same kind of message on some other banks' ATMs, including AEON (a non-bank) as best as I can recall.

But I believe TMB ATMs do have a menu button in their withdrawal screen that allows you to select 30K just with one button press, instead of having to manually key in the amount.

I can confirm that the TMB ATM had buttons for various set amounts but the most was 20,000. I had to select "other" and go through a couple of screens to be able to dial in an amount. Yellow bank has 30,000 on a button - that's what I had used from last month - but costs 180 baht. I'll do a more thorough check next time

[JDGRUEN]

(If you think my post is too long - then just don't read it ... Thank You...

The American Express Bluebird prepaid Debit/ATM card is an interesting way to deal with getting cash and moving modest amounts of money - back and forth to America and in America. It is very handy way to get cash in Thailand and is relatively cost effective too - compared to some other Debit/ATM cards.

The prepaid card is much more than a Debit/ATM card, it is basically a checking account. One can order paper checks, have direct deposit, have shared Family Accounts, plus much more --- just go to the link below and read. There are very few fees - actually only a few fee items at all. I think if any one of you readers go to the site and read about all the benefits and features you will be impressed. One thing I like is changing the PIN instantly on line. Transferring money back to someone in America can be done in very fine fashion with total control and management of the money.

https://www.bluebird.com/

My recent story with the Bluebird card... I have had a Bluebird card for almost a year but never used it until recently because it was not funded. Recently I misplaced my wallet with most of my cards in it - plus nearly all my cash. Thinking I had lost it I went on line to USAA moved cash into safe accounts and called to suspend the Debit/ATM cards. I found my wallet after about 36 hours - all in tact. But during those 36 hours I needed to get some cash... I found my Bluebird card - set a pin number. I could have easily moved - transferred money from my USAA accounts with a Debit/ATM card - but since those were misplaced I couldn't do that. The only option, since I had not done this as a backup precaution previously, was to make a bank transfer - an ACH transfer I believe. I got this cleared and transferred money to the Bluebird card but this type of transfer takes up to 5 days... but I did it anyway - not knowing I would find my regular cards.

Bottom line I was pressured into doing what I should have done months ago - fully prepare my backup plan. In the process I found out that the Bluebird card was an even better deal than I had previously thought.

Although my problem was solved upon finding my misplaced wallet. I went to a Bangkok Bank and used the Bluebird card and got some cash. It worked as normal except the Bangkok Bank fee was only 50 Baht... !!! There was also a $2.00 ATM fee charged by American Express. The exchange rate was I believe 30.9 Baht / USD. I don't recall exactly because I was expecting it to be on the receipt. But the receipt was different than my others using my regular ATM cards... it was a very short piece of paper with little detail except the amount of withdraw and the fee. But I recall looking at the screen and believe I saw 30.9. And I estimate the 50 Baht using the exchange rate of 30.9 was about $1.62. Adding the $2.00 AMEX ATM fee to the $1.62 equals $3.62 for the 10K Baht I withdrew. I do not know that if the withdraw had been 20K Baht whether the Bank Fee would have doubled or not to 100 Baht. I will check sometime and see. Daily withdraw is set at $750.00 maximum.

Added to this is that AMEX Bluebird does not charge what they call a Foreign Exchange Fee. In their FAQS there is no mention of a Foreign Transaction Fee using that terminology - at least that I can find. My math applied to the transaction of 10K Baht shows no other fees and nothing else in detailed on the account ledger. AMEX Bluebird does not reimburse ATM fees. My USAA checking accounts do reimburse ATM fees up to $15.00 each account - they appear in my account ledger once each month - totaled. But all in all using the AMEX Bluebird ATM card is not a bad deal. And for me will provide a great backup system.

Please Note: I have now gone back to my practice of not carrying all my cards in my wallet. I did this for many months but I got lazy and did not separate and secure them recently - LESSON LEARNED. Also ... if you comment - please don't lecture me about getting a Thai Bank Account - I just do not want to do that at this time -- sometime in the future perhaps... Your comments lecturing me will fall on deaf ears... I have not lost anything yet by way of fraud and my ATM fees with USAA are reimbursed. With USAA I may be paying Foreign Transaction Fees - but my math applied to the accounts does not detect them and they are not posted in the account ledgers or monthly statements. But even if there is a Foreign Transaction Fee with USAA it is not burdensome to me. Also I know that there are a number of good ways to do what I describe here - maybe better ... but this one is a nifty product that seems to be low cost for getting money at ATM's in Thailand (any ATM with the blue American Express Logo on it).

Note: AMEX has several credit card offerings using the term BLUE but they are not related to the Bluebird. AMEX does have another prepaid debit card called American Express Serve similar to the Bluebird card but I do not think it is as comprehensive.

APPLYING for the BlueBird Card on Line (For American EXPATS in Thailand to get one of these cards and the account behind it you would have to have an American mailing address (a USPS box # may not work)... Then have a trusted person forward it to you.

https://secure.bluebird.com/Signup?linknav=us-Prepaid-Bluebird-Home-Whybluebird-Registernow&tempcard=no

Also - I do not work for AMEX Bluebird nor anyone else and I get no spiff from touting their services. I am just happy that this card will help me out in the future if and when needed. And I wanted to share the information. Also the American Express Bluebird card is offered in association with Walmart - where cash can be deposited into the account/card.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

But I believe TMB ATMs do have a menu button in their withdrawal screen that allows you to select 30K just with one button press, instead of having to manually key in the amount.

I can confirm that the TMB ATM had buttons for various set amounts but the most was 20,000. I had to select "other" and go through a couple of screens to be able to dial in an amount.

Yep, I confirmed your comment the other day... 20K is the largest pre-set amount on the TMB ATM video screens.

But you can manually key in a request for up to 30K... Sorry for my prior error on that!!!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Although my problem was solved upon finding my misplaced wallet. I went to a Bangkok Bank and used the Bluebird card and got some cash. It worked as normal except the Bangkok Bank fee was only 50 Baht... !!! There was also a $2.00 ATM fee charged by American Express. The exchange rate was I believe 30.9 Baht / USD. I don't recall exactly because I was expecting it to be on the receipt. But the receipt was different than my others using my regular ATM cards... it was a very short piece of paper with little detail except the amount of withdraw and the fee. But I recall looking at the screen and believe I saw 30.9. And I estimate the 50 Baht using the exchange rate of 30.9 was about $1.62. Adding the $2.00 AMEX ATM fee to the $1.62 equals $3.62 for the 10K Baht I withdrew. I do not know that if the withdraw had been 20K Baht whether the Bank Fee would have doubled or not to 100 Baht. I will check sometime and see. Daily withdraw is set at $750.00 maximum.

Added to this is that AMEX Bluebird does not charge what they call a Foreign Exchange Fee. In their FAQS there is no mention of a Foreign Transaction Fee using that terminology - at least that I can find. My math applied to the transaction of 10K Baht shows no other fees and nothing else in detailed on the account ledger.

The prevailing U.S. $ to Thai baht exchange rate has been above or just below 32 in recent months... so under 31 would be a low value rate for you. And that's before tacking on the ATM fee.

I haven't looked into the details of this particular card. But in general, pre-paid bank cards are rarely a good value proposition, as they often carry more and different fees than their regular bank account counterparts. Though I do see AMEX is claiming this particular card doesn't have many fees, except for their $2 ATM charge.

As for card management, I'd strongly say,,, never carry any more bank cards in your wallet that you actually need to use that day. I usually carry 1 debit card and 1 credit card as a backup.... and leave everything else in a safe, secure place.

Also keep a list of all your card numbers and bank contact phone numbers in some secure place at home, preferably in a password protected file, in case you ever do have to report cards lost or stolen.

Edited September 8, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK