Working Online

[nicolas18]

JLCrab, no one cares about your "stated objective," to be honest. It isn't official DOL or Immigration policy. So, please, for the love of everything that is holy, stop with that nonsense.

So, for people looking for a real answer: yes, technically, working online is illegal, but no one cares.

[LivinLOS]

Guys, I don't buy that "working remotely" equals "working in Thailand" for several reasons.

In my opinion, unless some Thai minister say otherwise, is that "working in Thailand" is exactly what it say it is.

Selling services in Thailand, then you need a company.

Jesus how many times..

Do I need a ‘business visa’ to work online?

Is earning money through online advertising, website affiliate marketing or operating a business that has only an online presence whilst staying in Thailand considered working? Would that person be required to have a “business visa”?

Ting Tong Farang, Phuket Town Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM “Any foreigners working or starting a business in Thailand, online or off, need to first get a proper visa.

They can apply for a Non-Immigrant B visa at a Royal Thai Embassy in their home country.

Once they get it they can come to Thailand and apply for a work permit with the Department of Employment.

If we find out that a foreigner is doing business online without a work permit, we will arrest them and take legal action through the court.” Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM Pol Col Panuwat Ruamrak, Superintendent of Phuket Immigration

“Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so.

The first thing to do is get the proper business visa. Foreigners with any other type of visa generally cannot apply for a work permit.

An exception to that rule is made for foreigners legally married to Thai citizens.

For more information on the visas and documents required to apply for a work permit, we advise foreigners to contact us or the Department of Employment in the area they live.

We need detailed information from the foreigner before advising on further action.

Please call Phuket Department of Employment at 076-219660-1 ext 13 for further information.” Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment - See more at: http://legacy.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1175#sthash.Naz16bF0.dpuf

[LivinLOS]

Again, the "IT/online services" thing is without meaning. Thailand only has financial jurisdiction over business conducted in the economic environment of Thailand. If someone without a work permit is selling products to Thai people, on Thai servers, operating through Thai currency, that is a completely different situation.

See above..

[LivinLOS]

Thailand has remained independent because they have their own way of doing things.

If I was working online I would use this opportunity to make money tax free in an un-regulated market. Keep my mouth shut and my head down but make sure all my immigration issues were in order.

Forcing changes to the law would actually be detrimental in many ways.

Well, ATF, I don't see how it would be detrimental if it were simply made legal...as it is to exist in Thailand on a retirement visa at the moment, for example. Again, the actual difference to Thailand of that scenario and the scenario discussed in this thread is NIL...so far as I can see.

Well it wouldnt be legal for free now would it..

So like becoming legal via an umbrella company, expect 25 - 30% tax and social security deductions.

[Delphis]

Guys, I don't buy that "working remotely" equals "working in Thailand" for several reasons.

In my opinion, unless some Thai minister say otherwise, is that "working in Thailand" is exactly what it say it is.

Selling services in Thailand, then you need a company.

Jesus how many times..

Do I need a ‘business visa’ to work online?

Is earning money through online advertising, website affiliate marketing or operating a business that has only an online presence whilst staying in Thailand considered working? Would that person be required to have a “business visa”?

Ting Tong Farang, Phuket Town Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM “Any foreigners working or starting a business in Thailand, online or off, need to first get a proper visa.

They can apply for a Non-Immigrant B visa at a Royal Thai Embassy in their home country.

Once they get it they can come to Thailand and apply for a work permit with the Department of Employment.

If we find out that a foreigner is doing business online without a work permit, we will arrest them and take legal action through the court.” Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM Pol Col Panuwat Ruamrak, Superintendent of Phuket Immigration

“Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so.

The first thing to do is get the proper business visa. Foreigners with any other type of visa generally cannot apply for a work permit.

An exception to that rule is made for foreigners legally married to Thai citizens.

For more information on the visas and documents required to apply for a work permit, we advise foreigners to contact us or the Department of Employment in the area they live.

We need detailed information from the foreigner before advising on further action.

Please call Phuket Department of Employment at 076-219660-1 ext 13 for further information.” Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment - See more at: http://legacy.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1175#sthash.Naz16bF0.dpuf

I suspect that this question is asked with respect to onshore economic enterprises. The questioner in this piece does not specify, Of course doing an online business in the Thai economic environment needs a work permit.

[AYJAYDEE]

Guys, I don't buy that "working remotely" equals "working in Thailand" for several reasons.

In my opinion, unless some Thai minister say otherwise, is that "working in Thailand" is exactly what it say it is.

Selling services in Thailand, then you need a company.

Jesus how many times..

Do I need a ‘business visa’ to work online?

Is earning money through online advertising, website affiliate marketing or operating a business that has only an online presence whilst staying in Thailand considered working? Would that person be required to have a “business visa”?

Ting Tong Farang, Phuket Town Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM “Any foreigners working or starting a business in Thailand, online or off, need to first get a proper visa.

They can apply for a Non-Immigrant B visa at a Royal Thai Embassy in their home country.

Once they get it they can come to Thailand and apply for a work permit with the Department of Employment.

If we find out that a foreigner is doing business online without a work permit, we will arrest them and take legal action through the court.” Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM Pol Col Panuwat Ruamrak, Superintendent of Phuket Immigration

“Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so.

The first thing to do is get the proper business visa. Foreigners with any other type of visa generally cannot apply for a work permit.

An exception to that rule is made for foreigners legally married to Thai citizens.

For more information on the visas and documents required to apply for a work permit, we advise foreigners to contact us or the Department of Employment in the area they live.

We need detailed information from the foreigner before advising on further action.

Please call Phuket Department of Employment at 076-219660-1 ext 13 for further information.” Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment - See more at: http://legacy.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1175#sthash.Naz16bF0.dpuf

I suspect that this question is asked with respect to onshore economic enterprises. The questioner in this piece does not specify, Of course doing an online business in the Thai economic environment needs a work permit.

what makes you suspect that?

[Delphis]

what makes you suspect that?

Because "Do I need a business visa to work online in the economic loop of Thailand?"

and

"Do I need a business visa to monitor activities in a company that has aero economic transaction through Thailand?"

are not even remotely the same question.

[jpinx]

Parser failure ...

[AYJAYDEE]

what makes you suspect that?

Because "Do I need a business visa to work online in the economic loop of Thailand?"

and

"Do I need a business visa to monitor activities in a company that has aero economic transaction through Thailand?"

are not even remotely the same question.

neither of those was the question asked

[JLCrab]

JLCrab, no one cares about your "stated objective," to be honest. It isn't official DOL or Immigration policy. So, please, for the love of everything that is holy, stop with that nonsense.

So, for people looking for a real answer: yes, technically, working online is illegal, but no one cares.

Thank you. That is why that they do give out work permits & extensions of stay or visas for people who take note of the oft Repeated BOI and Commerce stated objectives regarding the IT and online services industry infrastructure and why Thailand does not provide any manner of visas or extensions of stay for those people who do not meet the stated objectives.

And people routinely come on here realizing that under-the-table online work may be against several regulations but no one cares but then they want to know why it isn't made legal.

Edited August 20, 2014 by JLCrab

[Delphis]

Okay,

Does anyone whatsoever on this thread have any specific, non-anecdotal evidence, of pointers to actual case documentation kind, of any instances in Thailand where someone was a) fined, b ) imprisoned, or c) deported for being discovered to be undertaking online activities that have no economic flow through Thailand, except as tapped by that private individual through an ATM or terminal bank account?

I'm guessing no, but I might be wrong, so I am all ears.

If however the answer is no, then we are talking about something that has a zero prosecution rate, and that can only be the case if it is effectively a non-subject for the Thai authorities.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Delphis

[JLCrab]

Okay,

Does anyone whatsoever on this thread have any specific, non-anecdotal evidence, of pointers to actual case documentation kind, of any instances in Thailand where someone was a) fined, b ) imprisoned, or c) deported for being discovered to be undertaking online activities that have no economic flow through Thailand, except as tapped by that private individual through an ATM or terminal bank account?

I'm guessing no, but I might be wrong, so I am all ears.

If however the answer is no, then we are talking about something that has a zero prosecution rate, and that can only be the case if it is effectively a non-subject for the Thai authorities.

Whether it is a non-subject or not, the reasonable explanation is that they do not bother to adjudicate any such violations but they also do not have -- at last as of the new Police Order -- any intention to legitimate it or provide any incentives because it most likely does not represent a significant enough component of the economy compared to those IT entities that are formed and hire Thai citizens to bother with it.

Edited August 20, 2014 by JLCrab

[Delphis]

Okay,

Does anyone whatsoever on this thread have any specific, non-anecdotal evidence, of pointers to actual case documentation kind, of any instances in Thailand where someone was a) fined, b ) imprisoned, or c) deported for being discovered to be undertaking online activities that have no economic flow through Thailand, except as tapped by that private individual through an ATM or terminal bank account?

I'm guessing no, but I might be wrong, so I am all ears.

If however the answer is no, then we are talking about something that has a zero prosecution rate, and that can only be the case if it is effectively a non-subject for the Thai authorities.

Whether it is a non-subject or not, the reasonable explanation is that they do not bother adjudicate any such violations but they also have -- at last as of the new Police Order -- any intention to legitimate it or provide any incentives because it does not represent a significant enough component of the economy compared to those IT entities that are formed and hire Thai citizens to bother with it.

Sure. I can buy that. It's not what I asked though.

[JLCrab]

Well sometimes you just don't control the show.

[jpinx]

Here's a place you are more likely to find the information you need to set yourself up with your online business while you are living in Thailand

http://www.thailawforum.com/database1/thailand-work-permit-law-2.html

[JLCrab]

Here's a place you are more likely to find the information you need to set yourself up with your online business while you are living in Thailand

http://www.thailawforum.com/database1/thailand-work-permit-law-2.html

Fine -- but you link to page 2 while on page 1 it states that you need:Section 1 -5:

1. Document of Employment/Employment Contract from future employer indicating grounds for not hiring a Thai national as well as evidence to support such reasons following guidelines issued by the Director-General

I would not suggest providing some of the reasons on this Forum as to why a Thai person is incapable of doing the work that the farang intends to do under the future work permit.

Edited August 20, 2014 by JLCrab

[jspill]

Does anyone whatsoever on this thread have any specific, non-anecdotal evidence, of pointers to actual case documentation kind, of any instances in Thailand where someone was a) fined, b ) imprisoned, or c) deported for being discovered to be undertaking online activities that have no economic flow through Thailand, except as tapped by that private individual through an ATM or terminal bank account?

Edited August 20, 2014 by jspill

[AYJAYDEE]

Okay,

Does anyone whatsoever on this thread have any specific, non-anecdotal evidence, of pointers to actual case documentation kind, of any instances in Thailand where someone was a) fined, b ) imprisoned, or c) deported for being discovered to be undertaking online activities that have no economic flow through Thailand, except as tapped by that private individual through an ATM or terminal bank account?

I'm guessing no, but I might be wrong, so I am all ears.

If however the answer is no, then we are talking about something that has a zero prosecution rate, and that can only be the case if it is effectively a non-subject for the Thai authorities.

correction: it WAS NOT a priority for previous administrations much like out/in visa exempts were ignored. what the new admin will do has yet to be determined.

[jessc]

I am not an attorney in Thailand, but I was an employment attorney in the U.S. for many years. I have lived in Thailand for four years now. This is my best understanding of the rules:

Scenario 1. You are employed by a foreign company (or are self-employed in a foreign country), and you happen to be performing your work while in Thailand. So long as your work is not engaged in commerce in Thailand, and so long as your activities in Thailand are not the subject of your work in a manner that engages thai commerce, you are not working in Thailand such that you must have a work permit. Your business is registered outside thailand, your taxes are paid outside thailand, your money is earned for work which does not concern Thailand, and no profits are earned from thai customers or customers who elicit your services because you are in Thailand.

Think of it as long holiday telecommuting. It is not illegal to telecommute from Thailand while you are on long holiday from home.

In this case, you can be here on a tourist visa, and as such you cannot live full time in thailand. You also can probably be here on a retirement visa and still virtually perform work back home, so long as the financial source of your income is outside thailand, and paid to an account that is outside Thailand. The retirement visa would be more of a "don't ask, don't tell" gray area.

Scenario 2: You work for a company that does business in Thailand, and your work for that business involves Thai commerce, and you perform your work in Thailand. In this case, you need your company to sponsor you for a work permit in Thailand.

Scenario 3: You start a business in or move an existing businesses' operations to Thailand. You do not have a business entity registered in another country, you do not pay corporate taxes in another country, and you perform all work for which you earn money in Thailand. In this case, you need to set up a Thai company, have a minimum of 4 thai employees, and obtain a work permit --- even if your customers are outside of Thailand.

Depending on how you arrange your affairs, self publishing via Amazon could arguably fit into any of these three scenarios. If you book is about Canadian fall flowers, and all you do in Thailand is sit beachside to do online research, writing and editing, then you are probably in Scenario 1. On the other hand, if you are here writing travel guides about Patong nightlife and self publishing them on Amazon, that is likely Scenario 3. If you are employed by Amazon to write books that in some way connect to Thailand or are sold to customers in Thailand, then that's likely scenario 2.

In short - the answer most likely depends on what you actually plan to do, and how you plan to do it. Best course would be to consult a Thai attorney to get expert advice.

[JLCrab]

Interesting analysis except for In this case, you can be here on a tourist visa, and as such you cannot live full time in Thailand because most of those on here who would opt for Scenario 1 and have entered via a Tourist visa are living full time in Thailand.

[AYJAYDEE]

I am not an attorney in Thailand, but I was an employment attorney in the U.S. for many years. I have lived in Thailand for four years now. This is my best understanding of the rules:

Scenario 1. You are employed by a foreign company (or are self-employed in a foreign country), and you happen to be performing your work while in Thailand. So long as your work is not engaged in commerce in Thailand, and so long as your activities in Thailand are not the subject of your work in a manner that engages thai commerce, you are not working in Thailand such that you must have a work permit. Your business is registered outside thailand, your taxes are paid outside thailand, your money is earned for work which does not concern Thailand, and no profits are earned from thai customers or customers who elicit your services because you are in Thailand.

Think of it as long holiday telecommuting. It is not illegal to telecommute from Thailand while you are on long holiday from home.

In this case, you can be here on a tourist visa, and as such you cannot live full time in thailand. You also can probably be here on a retirement visa and still virtually perform work back home, so long as the financial source of your income is outside thailand, and paid to an account that is outside Thailand. The retirement visa would be more of a "don't ask, don't tell" gray area.

Scenario 2: You work for a company that does business in Thailand, and your work for that business involves Thai commerce, and you perform your work in Thailand. In this case, you need your company to sponsor you for a work permit in Thailand.

Scenario 3: You start a business in or move an existing businesses' operations to Thailand. You do not have a business entity registered in another country, you do not pay corporate taxes in another country, and you perform all work for which you earn money in Thailand. In this case, you need to set up a Thai company, have a minimum of 4 thai employees, and obtain a work permit --- even if your customers are outside of Thailand.

Depending on how you arrange your affairs, self publishing via Amazon could arguably fit into any of these three scenarios. If you book is about Canadian fall flowers, and all you do in Thailand is sit beachside to do online research, writing and editing, then you are probably in Scenario 1. On the other hand, if you are here writing travel guides about Patong nightlife and self publishing them on Amazon, that is likely Scenario 3. If you are employed by Amazon to write books that in some way connect to Thailand or are sold to customers in Thailand, then that's likely scenario 2.

In short - the answer most likely depends on what you actually plan to do, and how you plan to do it. Best course would be to consult a Thai attorney to get expert advice.

do you have a copy of all the rules?

[GarryP]

Does anyone whatsoever on this thread have any specific, non-anecdotal evidence, of pointers to actual case documentation kind, of any instances in Thailand where someone was a) fined, b ) imprisoned, or c) deported for being discovered to be undertaking online activities that have no economic flow through Thailand, except as tapped by that private individual through an ATM or terminal bank account?

A genuine question, please could you explain the link between the quoted post and your picture? I have wracked my noggin, but can't come up with a sensible explanation.

[jessc]

@JLCrab - living here ILLEGALLY full time on a tourist visa.

@AYJAYDEE - all the rules, in English, aren't complied in one place. The statutes are and can be found online. Otherwise this is my own experience (i own a business here, have a work permit), discussion with my Thai attoreny, and also my legal experience generally. Thai laws are actually very similar to US AND English common laws.

[jessc]

@JLCrab - living here ILLEGALLY full time on a tourist visa.

[jessc]

@AYJAYDEE - I operate a business here, have a work permit, and have Thai attorneys. I have also looked at the English versions of the statutes, which tell some but not all of the information. And, Thai law is very similar to U.S. law with respect to business immigration issues.

But there is no place where all the information for every scenario is compiled. That's what lawyers are for. I'm not being glib. It's the same in every country. Statutes and administrative guidelines state the basic rules. Courts and administrators interpret the rules. Lawyers gather the knowledge od how the rules and interpretations actually function. Obviously it's not a perfect system. But that's the idea.

Edited August 20, 2014 by jessc

[AYJAYDEE]

@JLCrab - living here ILLEGALLY full time on a tourist visa.

@AYJAYDEE - all the rules, in English, aren't complied in one place. The statutes are and can be found online. Otherwise this is my own experience (i own a business here, have a work permit), discussion with my Thai attoreny, and also my legal experience generally. Thai laws are actually very similar to US AND English common laws.

so youve read them all??. and as a lawyer you are aware that all rules are open to interpretation. if they werent we wouldnt need lawyers and judges.

and the thai government always allowed end to end tourist visas. where does it say that is illegal?

Edited August 20, 2014 by AYJAYDEE

[JLCrab]

@JLCrab - living here ILLEGALLY full time on a tourist visa.

Fiddle dee dee -- who cares if no one prosecutes it they will say. However most * all on a tourist visa have signed a declaration that they are here for pleasure only and will not engage in any profession or occupation.

* I say most because there are still some out of date applications floating wound that omit that declaration.

[jessc]

I offered my best understanding. Take it or leave it.

[DrTuner]

It's not only the immigration and work permit. Taxes kick in after 180 days. You can pay the taxes without having a work permit, yes, but eventually some one is going to connect the dots.

[JLCrab]

@JLCrab - living here ILLEGALLY full time on a tourist visa.

I have no problem with your analysis but it comes on page 10 of this topic. Many of those who comment on here just want to know why they cannot stay under your Scenario #1 im perpetuum and have decided the only reason they cannot is the shortsightedness of those in Thai officialdom who have made the rules.

(Should have been on your take-it-or-leave it Post)

Edited August 20, 2014 by JLCrab