Fortune Tellers

[alexth]

I am not sure this is the right place for this tipic, I am very sorry if I make any mistake. I keep seeing these fortunetellers near the entranceses to the temples. What's their history? Is that for real? Who are they? Are the monks ok with this practice? I am asking because in my religion (orthodoxism), fortune tellers are not tolerated by the monks and priests and it's considered a satanic practice, besides as being a total lie and scam.

[chownah]

Just because an activity happens in front of a temple does not mean that it is authorized by the temple. Monks are people and thus they are all different....probably some go with it and some scoff at it.

My view. Life is a mystery and an adventure...why spoil the surprises...enjoy them as they happen.

Edited July 8, 2006 by chownah

[alexth]

Just because an activity happens in front of a temple does not mean that it is authorized by the temple. Monks are people and thus they are all different....probably some go with it and some scoff at it.

My view. Life is a mystery and an adventure...why spoil the surprises...enjoy them as they happen.

I totally agree, just wanted to know if this is another scam or not and would have liked to know if is there any truth in this and what's it's story.

[IMA_FARANG]

Just because an activity happens in front of a temple does not mean that it is authorized by the temple. Monks are people and thus they are all different....probably some go with it and some scoff at it.

My view. Life is a mystery and an adventure...why spoil the surprises...enjoy them as they happen.

I totally agree, just wanted to know if this is another scam or not and would have liked to know if is there any truth in this and what's it's story.

Lighten up on the fortune tellers. In Thailand the temple is not only a place for the monks, or for "serious" religion, but a social place for the Thais that use it. The fortune tellers provide a source of comfort for the people who use them. They are part of tradition and custom for many poor Thais, who have little else to live for or to give them comfort in their lives. As long as it is relatively harmless, what is the problem with it?

[alexth]

Just because an activity happens in front of a temple does not mean that it is authorized by the temple. Monks are people and thus they are all different....probably some go with it and some scoff at it.

My view. Life is a mystery and an adventure...why spoil the surprises...enjoy them as they happen.

I totally agree, just wanted to know if this is another scam or not and would have liked to know if is there any truth in this and what's it's story.

Lighten up on the fortune tellers. In Thailand the temple is not only a place for the monks, or for "serious" religion, but a social place for the Thais that use it. The fortune tellers provide a source of comfort for the people who use them. They are part of tradition and custom for many poor Thais, who have little else to live for or to give them comfort in their lives. As long as it is relatively harmless, what is the problem with it?

Well, I'm probably going off topic but I am not sure if you've ever heard about the gipsy fortune tellers...where I come from, there are a lot of sad stories of people who trusted them and the fortune tellers took advantage and required money (big money) for the ritual to be done, gold or any type of goods people could offer, of course it was a scam...I was only curious if that was a part of the Budhist religion or just another scam (even if an innocent scam)

[Thai-Aust]

... there are a lot of sad stories of people who trusted them and the fortune tellers took advantage and required money (big money) for the ritual to be done, gold or any type of goods people could offer, of course it was a scam...I was only curious if that was a part of the Budhist religion or just another scam (even if an innocent scam)

Buddhism forbids any kind of superstitious including fortune telling. What you see is just another way of making money out of ignorant, desperate people. However, having said that, there are a very few monks who can see and tell what your future hold in general. But more likely than not, these monks would never tell anybody about such thing.

[chownah]

I don't believe that the Buddha every suggested that people could tell what the future would be nor did he ever suggest that having your fortune told would be helpful in following the Dhamma. I think that the Buddha taught that you should be mindful every moment of what is happening in that moment.

If you are wondering if these people could *really* tell the future....try it and see.

[bankei]

my wife often sees a certain monk who tells her fortune. I am rather skeptical of this and considered such monks as not practicing Buddhism. But one day I went along, and on seeing the monk, I was very impressed with his demeanor. With some monks, you can tell instantly they are no different to lay people, not developed. However, this monk was very impressive. I got the impression that he had developed onlong the path. I asked a for questions about Buddhism to test his answers, and seemed to be on track there.

I don't know about the fortune telling though. He knew some things that he could not have known. eg. my wife's friend has had 2 abortions, the monk said there were 2 babies following her, and sleeping with her etc. But, on the otherhand, this could be just educated guesswork too.

[sbk]

Buddhists, like followers of any other major religion, don't necessarily follow the "rules" strictly. Often paganistic rituals are incorporated into the religion and then given some kind of sheen of legitimacy. Perfect example: the christmas tree.

So, not that fortune tellers are particularly "Buddhist" they, like spirit houses, buddhist amulets, tattoos etc, have been incorporated into the local belief system and given a "sheen" of Buddhist appearance.

[chownah]

Buddhists, like followers of any other major religion, don't necessarily follow the "rules" strictly. Often paganistic rituals are incorporated into the religion and then given some kind of sheen of legitimacy. Perfect example: the christmas tree.

So, not that fortune tellers are particularly "Buddhist" they, like spirit houses, buddhist amulets, tattoos etc, have been incorporated into the local belief system and given a "sheen" of Buddhist appearance.

Perhaps it is more accurate to say that Buddhism has been incorporated into the local belief system which included spirit houses, amulets, tatoos etc. long before Buddhism made its way to Thailand and vicinity.

[meadish_sweetball]

Never underestimate the power of clever application of statistics combined with so called 'cold reading' (http://skepdic.com/coldread.html).

A person who has spent most of his life working with fortune telling will be expert at reading small signs in people's behaviour, language, dress, etc. and combine these with what is statistically likely in order to present something that comes out as 'supernatural' to most of us...

Those who have seen the likes of Derren Brown will know what I mean.

[thankuverybig]

in my experience of the indian fortune tellers in thailand,they are generally good acters who can turn on the charm.i have found them a little spooky,but not in any spiritual sense. if you resist their offerings they may tell you that theres something very special about you,as an encouragement.

yes i agree about them being good readers of people.

[UncleDonald]

Could it be that western logic misses the point about fortune telling, taking to be some kind of verifiable statement about a future with controlled variables? After all the future does not have fixed variables; one's personal future is in large part determined heuristically by personal beliefs. Isn't it true that a person who believes that they will meet a charming new friend or close a good deal is more likely to do both than the same person who has not acquired such a belief? Perhaps our pity should be for those who lack such customs, who are taught to believe instead in such fakery as psychology.

[sabaijai]

Back when I was in university I volunteered to participate in an experiment carried out by a PhD candidate in the psych department in which the predictions and assessments of nationally recognised astrologists--using the latest in computer-assisted natal chart technology at the time--was compared to the results of a battery of psychological profiles carried out by trained clinical psychologists. The objective was to see if there was any correlation between astrological profiling and pscyhological profiling.

Each of us was suject to a series of interviews with psychologists and we also were given several different personality tests (including an IQ test, the first time I'd ever taken one). The astrological readings were done via mail, with subjects supplying their birth details--time, date and location. This was to assure there was no personal contact with the astrologists.

Part of the methodology included having us read written digests of the psychologists' evaluations plus a set of digests created by the astrologists. They had been prepared so that two types of profiles were indistinguishable in terms of general prose style and format, and we were not told which belonged to which 'camp'.

I was given a total of four digests. I remember well that one of the evaluations stood out and seemed to describe me incredibly accurately (from my own perception at least). Meanwhile the other three had a few points that resonated but nothing compared to the one that stood out. After reading through my profiles I was asked to note which felt more accurate.

I never got to find out the results of the experiment. The PhD candidate called the whole thing to a halt after his office and home were vandalised, many of the files stolen and he received threatening phone calls. The trespassers poured salt on the floor and file cabinets, a seemingly occult aspect that led the dept to suspect someone from the astrologists' camp had been responsible for the damage and thefts, although they never did identify the burglars.

[meadish_sweetball]

Could it be that western logic misses the point about fortune telling, taking to be some kind of verifiable statement about a future with controlled variables? After all the future does not have fixed variables; one's personal future is in large part determined heuristically by personal beliefs. Isn't it true that a person who believes that they will meet a charming new friend or close a good deal is more likely to do both than the same person who has not acquired such a belief? Perhaps our pity should be for those who lack such customs, who are taught to believe instead in such fakery as psychology.

I will definitely concede you have a point there, although I would not go as far as turning the statement completely around. My guess is that you are primarily referring to psycho-analysis as a method of helping people, and I agree that it is not a very scientific method per se, although some people have great results with it. The rather recent introduction of cognitive science into psychology has done a lot for my appreciation of it, anyway.

Fortune telling is a profession that attracts lots of con artists, and this is my main gripe with it. As long as the maw duu is a good cold reader and reaffirms and strengthens their client's resolve without trying to control them in a certain direction they did not already want to go, it can definitely have a positive effect... but in not so few cases, the gift of being good at reading people is abused for personal gains.

[Sheryl]

Monks are definitely forbidden from telling fortunes or otherwise making public demonstrations of any (to a lay mind) "magical powers"they may have developed. It's a serious offense.

As far as I know there isn't anything on its practice by lay persons although obviously any kind of scam would be wrong livelihood.

Actually this is an issue that has worried me a bit as I am sometimes able to do tarot readings that are both accurate and helpful. I can't control it, just from time to time I get a feeling that it would be helpful for me to do a reading for some one and I offer. I don't derive any material gain from it and don't advertise the fact that I can do it. As far as I know the results have always been either positive or neutral for the person receiving the reading. But still, I wonder about whether it is wrong ....

[sabaijai]

Could it be that western logic misses the point about fortune telling, taking to be some kind of verifiable statement about a future with controlled variables? After all the future does not have fixed variables; one's personal future is in large part determined heuristically by personal beliefs. Isn't it true that a person who believes that they will meet a charming new friend or close a good deal is more likely to do both than the same person who has not acquired such a belief? Perhaps our pity should be for those who lack such customs, who are taught to believe instead in such fakery as psychology.

I will definitely concede you have a point there, although I would not go as far as turning the statement completely around. My guess is that you are primarily referring to psycho-analysis as a method of helping people, and I agree that it is not a very scientific method per se, although some people have great results with it. The rather recent introduction of cognitive science into psychology has done a lot for my appreciation of it, anyway.

Fortune telling is a profession that attracts lots of con artists, and this is my main gripe with it. As long as the maw duu is a good cold reader and reaffirms and strengthens their client's resolve without trying to control them in a certain direction they did not already want to go, it can definitely have a positive effect... but in not so few cases, the gift of being good at reading people is abused for personal gains.

Just to amplify on this point, more than a few fortune tellers I've encountered in Thailand and neighbouring countries have functioned, at least partially, as psychological counsel. Some dwell on personal analysis as much or more than they do on predicting the future. They may identify mental or emotional obstacles in a person's path, and suggest ways of dealing with these obstacles. In that sense they are cheap psychiatry, in a way. Of course there's no licensing or regulation so the potential for scams or cons is ever-present. But not all fortune-tellers are scammers, and many provide a small degree of psychological assistance for their clients.

My own experience with seers is that a small percentage are quite gifted and their counsel can be very useful in getting people 'unstuck' when they are having certain kinds of personal problems. If nothing else a session puts the client in a mood to listen to someone else's advice and perhaps to delve into a little self-analysis as well.

As has been pointed out, in Theravada Buddhism the only proscription against such practices is for fully ordained monks. Nuns and novices take no such vows, nor do laypeople.

[UncleDonald]

Could it be that western logic misses the point about fortune telling, taking to be some kind of verifiable statement about a future with controlled variables? After all the future does not have fixed variables; one's personal future is in large part determined heuristically by personal beliefs. Isn't it true that a person who believes that they will meet a charming new friend or close a good deal is more likely to do both than the same person who has not acquired such a belief? Perhaps our pity should be for those who lack such customs, who are taught to believe instead in such fakery as psychology.

I will definitely concede you have a point there, although I would not go as far as turning the statement completely around. My guess is that you are primarily referring to psycho-analysis as a method of helping people, and I agree that it is not a very scientific method per se, although some people have great results with it. The rather recent introduction of cognitive science into psychology has done a lot for my appreciation of it, anyway.

Fortune telling is a profession that attracts lots of con artists, and this is my main gripe with it. As long as the maw duu is a good cold reader and reaffirms and strengthens their client's resolve without trying to control them in a certain direction they did not already want to go, it can definitely have a positive effect... but in not so few cases, the gift of being good at reading people is abused for personal gains.

Just to amplify on this point, more than a few fortune tellers I've encountered in Thailand and neighbouring countries have functioned, at least partially, as psychological counsel. Some dwell on personal analysis as much or more than they do on predicting the future. They may identify mental or emotional obstacles in a person's path, and suggest ways of dealing with these obstacles. In that sense they are cheap psychiatry, in a way. Of course there's no licensing or regulation so the potential for scams or cons is ever-present. But not all fortune-tellers are scammers, and many provide a small degree of psychological assistance for their clients.

My own experience with seers is that a small percentage are quite gifted and their counsel can be very useful in getting people 'unstuck' when they are having certain kinds of personal problems. If nothing else a session puts the client in a mood to listen to someone else's advice and perhaps to delve into a little self-analysis as well.

Well it sounds as if we are reaching a sort of middle ground here, though it does not seem necessary to judge these eastern practices by some kind of western gold standard. For example, Freudian psychology which was once accepted among the well informed as surely as thermodynamics (on which it was partially based) now seems completely discredited, and judging it from a pragmatic standpoint one could argue that it was actually harmful by in stirring up shame and focussing on futile blame on parents etc. More contemporary psychologies are scientifically weak and also lack the narrative and moral core that should be part of good counsel, ie they don't really help a person to decide what to do, which is what matters in many cases.

Of course in the end it is hard to find anyone who can be trusted to bring good will to the task. Especially someone who walks up to you on the street. Maybe this is why the Thai like and respect older people -- "uncles" -- because they are less likely to have harmful motives.

[chownah]

UncleDonald,

I liked your post. I agreed somewhat with all of it but not completely with any of it...assuredly the middle ground. Also I noticed that my disagreement (and the agreement...no need to say that your post is half *empty*.....) was distributed fairly uniformly across your exposition. This is something I have noticed whenever I have read your posts. Another thing I have noticed is that the first thing I want to do when I see your name as the author of a post is to sing "Eeee Iiiii Eeee Iiiii Ooooo". I don't think, however that this is indicative of any middle ground seeking tendencies on your part....or mine.

Can you explain your view that Freudian psychology was partially based on thermodynamics? Do you think the Thai saying "jai yen yen" has its roots in Freudian psychology given its obvious allusion to thermodynamics?

Entropically Yours,

Chownah

Edited July 10, 2006 by chownah