Israel PM vows further Gaza campaign

[Morch]

Saleh al-Arouri is suspect. 15 years in Israeli prison and allowed to move around freely in Turkey. Where is the evidence?

Coming back to the continuation of the bombing campaign in Gaza. The pretexts are 'rockets' and 'tunnels' and 'Hamas' but as one Israeli commentator put it... 'it's a ritual'. How many times has Gaza been subjected to bombing?

The Palestinians, in Israeli officials’ own words

http://mondoweiss.net/2009/01/the-palestinians-in-israeli-officials-own-words.html

'...Israel is engaged in a long war of annihilation against Palestinian society. The objective is to destroy the Palestinian nation and drive it back into pre-modern groupings based on the tribe, the clan and the enclave. This is the last phase of the Zionist colonial mission, culminating in inaccessible townships, camps, villages, districts, all of them to be walled or fenced off, and patrolled by a powerful army'.

In 2012 UNICEF and the UNRWA estimated that Gaza's population would increase to 2.1 million by 2020 and become unsustainable... http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/gaza-2020-liveable-place

Netenyahu has said he will not allow a Palestinian State. It seems clear that Israel's 'solution' for Gaza is to accelerate that time-frame from years to months, (possibly weeks) by destroying everything that supports a civilized life.

Right, Saleh al-Arouri is suspect. Does the Hamas share your views? Is Meshaal suspect as well?

http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-leader--don-t-compare-us-to-isil-193125056.html

Also, the quote attributed by you to "Israeli officials" is actually by Yitzhak Laor, an Israeli novelist and poet, also known

for his far-left political convictions. I daresay he'd be pissed (or amused) to know he was called an "Israeli official".

[Choctastic]

Also, the quote attributed by you to "Israeli officials" is actually by Yitzhak Laor, an Israeli novelist and poet, also known

for his far-left political convictions. I daresay he'd be pissed (or amused) to know he was called an "Israeli official".

I daresay he would be pleased his words are being posted to an international forum.

As to 'Israeli officials'. I agree. That's why, with regards to him, I said 'commentator'.

[Morch]

Morch,

You are playing with semantics again. Moshe Dayan was well aware of the civil rights that Zionists had taken away from its Palestinian inhabitants.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58."

http://monabaker.com/quotes.htm

It would be very interesting indeed to know where Israel's borders actually are...they've been advancing them for almost 70 years now.

Maybe this is a watershed moment... I hope so.

Hamas leader Khaled Mishal described the Hamas charter "a piece of history and no longer relevant"

"We accept a state with the 1967 borders but Israel doesn't. That makes a solution difficult to achieve"

Hamas number two, Mousa Abu Marzouk, noted that "the charter is not the Quran. It can be amended."

It is also worth noting that the late Israeli Defence Minister Ezer Weizman once stood in front of his Likud Party emblem that showed Jordan as part of Israel and said with regard to the charter of the Palestine Liberation Organization that at the time called for Israel's demise: "We can dream, so can they."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-dorsey/behind-the-gaza-ceasefire_b_5698683.html

It would be ever so much easier relating to your post if your quoted which one of mine you were commenting on.

As for Dayan's statement, not that it is factually wrong, just that you took it out of context. All the Jewish settlements named

were founded between 1921-1927, on lands purchased legally. Do tell which civil rights were taken in these cases.

As for Hamas leadership going pro-peace - first, how about linking the relevant Al Jazeera interview referred to in Dorsey's

column, rather than taking a sample quote for granted? I think it will be revealed, said quotes were conditioned by others.

Second, haven't noticed any actual changes to Charter despite claims it is outdated and irrelevant (not much issues with the

call "from river to sea", eh?). Third, Meshaal is in the habit of saying different things at different times and venues, such as in

this recent interview - http://www.cbsnews.com/news/will-hamas-recognize-israel-as-a-jewish-state/ (relevant part halfway

through the clip) - hardly as straightforward as it seems.

The last part of your quote is indeed telling - The notion of "Greater Israel" as well as the relevant PLO Charter parts aren't

around. The Hamas Charter is, and for all the talk its still unchanged.

[Morch]

I am not 'whinging and whining' about your sources; merely pointing out that videos and articles produced by the propaganda department of the IDF or websites openly supportive of the Israeli government's policies are not unbiased!

I do not include all Jewish sources in that; indeed I, and others, have posted links to and quotes from Jewish sources which are critical of the Israeli government and the IDF.

But, of course, those who support the killing and maiming of innocent civilians by the IDF treat all such criticism, no matter from whom, as 'discredited' even though they have not actually been able to do so, and all outpourings of the IDF and Israeli government propaganda machines as the absolute truth!

Those of us who abhor the killing and maiming of civilians by both sides look closer at sources before accepting what they say.

Gave you a "like" for sheer comedy value.

Seeing as a considerable part of my posts on relevant topics deal with calling out and correcting misquotes, disinformation,

factual errors, omitting details and plain ignorance - can't see your post as anything but tongue in cheek.

Have to say that making such blanket statements regarding yourself and all of the posters supporting your point of view and

take on these matters is quite bold. Mind, I am not making a similar claim regarding posters in general, regardless of their

views, even if those happen to go along with mine - some do use crappy sources, misrepresent reality and in general, display

the same sort of behavior as other posters who do not share their views.

Of course, your crude divisions between support/abhor killing and maiming of innocent civilians by the IDF is nothing but

ridiculous, but hey - whatever floats your funny boat.

May want to check up on some of the things you posted in this topic and see how they match up with reality, that is, if you

are not busy thinking up another piece of hilarity.

[7by7]

Instead of childish insults, how about proving me wrong?

[Morch]

Instead of childish insults, how about proving me wrong?

Interesting. Wasn't your whole post a general insult directed at everyone not sharing your point of view?

Not sure you could be proven wrong, seeing as you seem to wrapped up in this logic ball where all information not

supporting your views is automatically rejected on one ground or another. But maybe can point again to previous

posts and see if you can conjure some backing for statements made?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753528-israel-pm-vows-further-gaza-campaign/page-6#entry8296670

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753528-israel-pm-vows-further-gaza-campaign/page-6#entry8296694

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753528-israel-pm-vows-further-gaza-campaign/page-6#entry8296749

And mind, that's just recent posts by yourself on this topic. Not making hard for you trying to explain away nonsense

posts by other posters who share your views, although you're welcome to try. Some real gems on this topic alone.

My point, if it wasn't too clear, is that claiming superiority when it comes to analyzing information regarding this

conflict is not necessarily something that always goes hand in hand with ones opinions. If you wish to continue

and hold the notion that everyone who shares your views exhibits better practices when processing information

you've got your work cut out for you, that's for sure.

[Ulysses G.]

Instead of childish insults, how about proving me wrong?

Every time someone proves you wrong and offers irrefutable evidence, you just deny it and pretend that you were right in the first place. Morch has been remarkably patient with you up till now.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Steely Dan]

Instead of childish insults, how about proving me wrong?

Every time someone proves you wrong and offers irrefutable evidence, you just deny it and pretend that you were right in the first place. Morch has been remarkably patient with you up till now.

Look up playing chess with a pigeon, it's rather apt.

[JDGRUEN]

As long as Hamas keep violating ceasefires and keep shooting rockets into Israel, the military campaign will continue - as it should. Hamas are terrorists. Get 'em Bibi.

As long as Israel will not return the illegaly stolen lands I don't blame hamas for fighting. If I had the money I would give them weapons and traing equal to that of Israel, at least then it might be a fair fight. Netanyahu is nothing short of a terrorist leading an expansionist government

Some lands were purchased and others taken in wars - taken in defensive wars struck against Israel by neighboring Arab nations ... such lands do not have to be returned -- that is the nature of the laws of war... Lesson Learned - don't start wars with Israel

Edited August 27, 2014 by JDGRUEN

[Jay Sata]

Instead of childish insults, how about proving me wrong?

Every time someone proves you wrong and offers irrefutable evidence, you just deny it and pretend that you were right in the first place. Morch has been remarkably patient with you up till now.

A big bird with a long neck tends to escape reality by putting his head in the sand.

Perhaps you should check out the symptoms?

Israel is now a pariah state funded by the USA.

Netanyahu is an out of control politician who thinks guns and bombs solve everything.

The truth is that avenue gets you nowhere my friend just like the big bird!

Weeks of bombing have just given Hamas what they wanted.

[Jingthing]

If Hamas got what they wanted, then I suppose Hamas cheerleaders / "anti-Zionists" should be dancing in the streets waving guns just like the people in Gaza now ...

Somehow I don't the story is quite that simple.

[Ulysses G.]

Weeks of bombing have just given Hamas what they wanted.

It got Hamas lots of deaths, tunnels destroyed. rockets and other weapons decimated and no way to replenish them with Egypt firmly against them now.

[Morch]

Instead of childish insults, how about proving me wrong?

Every time someone proves you wrong and offers irrefutable evidence, you just deny it and pretend that you were right in the first place. Morch has been remarkably patient with you up till now.

A big bird with a long neck tends to escape reality by putting his head in the sand.

Perhaps you should check out the symptoms?

Israel is now a pariah state funded by the USA.

Netanyahu is an out of control politician who thinks guns and bombs solve everything.

The truth is that avenue gets you nowhere my friend just like the big bird!

Weeks of bombing have just given Hamas what they wanted.

Only ostriches don't really do this, as most people know.

Same goes for the rest of your post, words without anything to back them up.

How is Israel, objectively, a pariah state? Did any country break diplomatic relationships? Are there any new restrictions on

Israeli citizens traveling abroad? Does the hyped BDS (and similar efforts) actually have a significant effect on Israel?

Netanyahu out of control? In which way? Do you even realize Netanyahu is besieged by right wing elements within his party

and coalition on account of not taking harsher measures? He had to pass the decision on the latest ceasefire without a vote

(undemocratic, but legal) for fear it would not pass.

What did the Hamas exactly get, in your informed opinion? The current ceasefire is just what they were not ready to accept

a few weeks ago (that is, a prolonged ceasefire, which if kept, will be followed by negotiations). The whole package of their

demands is not even addressed yet.

Other than slogans, there's nothing in your post that has much to do with reality.

[CBR250]

Once Israel allows Palestine to live in a modern, civil world then the Palestinians will act modern and civil.

You should have been living in Israel in the early 1970s when travel through the West Bank was unrestricted and when both young Israelis and young Palestinians would share coffee in the old Petra Cafe inside the old city walls of Jerusalem and talk politics without violence or hatred. As a westerner, I had no problems sleeping in Arab hotels in East Jerusalem, sometimes even sleeping in Arab hostels within the old city. But Arafat, the egotistical blunderbuss was not happy with peace and the right wing religious groups in Israel, the Gush Emunim folks, were not content with pre-1967 borders, and civility went out the window and across the River Styx in a hand basket. Such times are now forgotten except for a few of us over 60 curmudgeons.

Today there is no longer free travel, there is the wall of failure built as a last solution to the entry of suicide bombers from the West Bank. But today the West Bank is relatively modern and civil. Today's problems are all started by Hamas in Gaza. Only when the people of Gaza decide to replace Hamas will any semblance of civility return. I am not optimistic.

This post was going long ok. Then I hit the second paragraph, and realised that the old one-way Israeli blame game was still up and running. Pity. Understanding history may help to develop solutions for today and tomorrow. Indulging in the one-way blame game is guaranteed to impede any possible solutions. But if it is more important to you to argue who started what than to find a solution, go for it.

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted. The topic is about Gaza.

[Johpa]

Perhaps you should check out the symptoms?

Israel is now a pariah state funded by the USA.

Netanyahu is an out of control politician who thinks guns and bombs solve everything.

The truth is that avenue gets you nowhere my friend just like the big bird!

Weeks of bombing have just given Hamas what they wanted.

Israel has long been a pariah state to most of the third world states, absolutely nothing new there. It does have both supporters and detractors amongst residents of the G20.

I agree, Netanyahu is a problem.

And you are also correct, the bombings have given Hamas exactly what they want, civilian causalties. The casualties that have naive people in the west castigating Netanyahu (alas, for the wrong reasons) and failing at the same time to place fault upon Hamas for engaging in behavior that they know will result in more civilian casualties because, as you duly note, civilian casualties are the tactical plan of Hamas. The bird lays turds and you are one of the hundreds of flies attracted to the turds laid by Hamas.

[Johpa]

Today there is no longer free travel, there is the wall of failure built as a last solution to the entry of suicide bombers from the West Bank. But today the West Bank is relatively modern and civil. Today's problems are all started by Hamas in Gaza. Only when the people of Gaza decide to replace Hamas will any semblance of civility return. I am not optimistic.

This post was going long ok. Then I hit the second paragraph, and realised that the old one-way Israeli blame game was still up and running. Pity. Understanding history may help to develop solutions for today and tomorrow. Indulging in the one-way blame game is guaranteed to impede any possible solutions. But if it is more important to you to argue who started what than to find a solution, go for it.

Are you deaf? You are fully aware that I lay blame on the faulty long term failure of the political leadership of both sides. But if you have been reading the news, Hamas did take responsibility for the kidnappings and Netanyahu, the fool, took the bait. The failed ceasefires have all been broken by Hamas. The broader situation is a failure of both sides over the past many decades, the immediate problems were initiated by Hamas.

As for history, both sides need to stop arguing over who once owned the land in the past. That is no more the issue in Israel than it is in North America, Australia, Sri Lanka, or countless other countries where wars and migrations have altered the demographics. Regardless of claims and counter claims, Israel is not going anywhere unless one wants to envision a true Armegeddon. The question is how to move forward to improve the life for the Gazans given that Israel is not going to disappear. And sending rockets into Israel is not moving anyone in a positive direction.

Hamas sacrificed those civilians to gain your sympathy in the mistaken notion that having enough people jump on Israel on social media will somehow make Israel disappear.

[Ulysses G.]

Except no one was shooting thousands of rockets at those places, which any country on earth would have to stop. Your argument is dishonest as well as morally bankrupt.

[Scott]

An inflammatory post and replies have been deleted as well as off-topic posts and replies.

[Jean Pierre Jacquot]

Except no one was shooting thousands of rockets at those places, which any country on earth would have to stop. Your argument is dishonest as well as morally bankrupt.

Sure any country would respond to rockets being shot at them. Some would respond in looking at their way they do treat the ones who hate them, some would respond by military action. But NO ONE EXCEPT ISRAEL has responded by intentionally bombing from the UN as safe declared schools at daytime. Only Israel is doing it and with it demonstrating their wish to continue the genocide conducted by them.

[Ulysses G.]

Except no one was shooting thousands of rockets at those places, which any country on earth would have to stop. Your argument is dishonest as well as morally bankrupt.

Sure any country would respond to rockets being shot at them.

Congratulations. The only part of your post that is not complete nonsense.

[Jean Pierre Jacquot]

Except no one was shooting thousands of rockets at those places, which any country on earth would have to stop. Your argument is dishonest as well as morally bankrupt.

Sure any country would respond to rockets being shot at them.

Congratulations. The only part of your post that is not complete nonsense.

Anybody can say nonsense. Come forward with facts but as you know very well you can't rebuke the fact of the bombing of schools and murdering of children. So you hide behind things like nonsense, anti-semitism etc. But people like you never would aknowledge a mistake, aren't they?

[Ulysses G.]

Anybody can say nonsense. Come forward with facts but as you know very well you can't rebuke the fact of the bombing of schools and murdering of children. So you hide behind things like nonsense, anti-semitism etc. But people like you never would aknowledge a mistake, aren't they?

You have made numerous anti-Semitic remarks and anyone can look at your posting history and see the ones that have not been deleted by the moderators.

As to this delusional gobbledygook, calling it nonsense is being generous:

But NO ONE EXCEPT ISRAEL has responded by intentionally bombing from the UN as safe declared schools at daytime.

[dexterm]

Except no one was shooting thousands of rockets at those places, which any country on earth would have to stop. Your argument is dishonest as well as morally bankrupt.

It had slowed to a trickle of less than one rocket per week falling harmlessly in the 6 weeks prior to 12 June, when Netanyahu picked this fight with Hamas.

Now he has the blood of 68 young Israelis on his hands and what has he achieved?

... a PR disaster and Hamas claiming a victory.

[dexterm]

As long as Hamas keep violating ceasefires and keep shooting rockets into Israel, the military campaign will continue - as it should. Hamas are terrorists. Get 'em Bibi.

As long as Israel will not return the illegaly stolen lands I don't blame hamas for fighting. If I had the money I would give them weapons and traing equal to that of Israel, at least then it might be a fair fight. Netanyahu is nothing short of a terrorist leading an expansionist government

Some lands were purchased and others taken in wars - taken in defensive wars struck against Israel by neighboring Arab nations ... such lands do not have to be returned -- that is the nature of the laws of war... Lesson Learned - don't start wars with Israel

I think you'd better read the Geneva Convention.

Israel needs to end its pariah status, obey international law and join the 21st century

[Ulysses G.]

Except no one was shooting thousands of rockets at those places, which any country on earth would have to stop. Your argument is dishonest as well as morally bankrupt.

It had slowed to a trickle of less than one rocket per week falling harmlessly in the 6 weeks prior to 12 June, when Netanyahu picked this fight with Hamas.

Thousands before and thousands afterwards. Why do you keep repeating the same discredited talking points?

[Ulysses G.]

I think you'd better read the Geneva Convention.

Hamas are terrorists. The Geneva Convention does not apply to unlawful combatants.

[Morch]

Except no one was shooting thousands of rockets at those places, which any country on earth would have to stop. Your argument is dishonest as well as morally bankrupt.

Sure any country would respond to rockets being shot at them. Some would respond in looking at their way they do treat the ones who hate them, some would respond by military action. But NO ONE EXCEPT ISRAEL has responded by intentionally bombing from the UN as safe declared schools at daytime. Only Israel is doing it and with it demonstrating their wish to continue the genocide conducted by them.

Some would respond in looking at their way they do treat the ones who hate them

Could you cite an example?

[Jingthing]

No country would look the other way. This is Israel demonization in action ... expecting absurdly suicidal behavior from the only Jew state and no other state.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[SeaVisionBurma]

An inflammatory post has been removed from view.