Digital nomad, online workers.. Permission !

[TinaKohChang]

With reference to the story above from the Chiang Mai City News, this is the first Thaivisa has heard about 'digital nomads' (or anyone else for that matter) being able to legally work on a tourist visa. We don't know if this confirmed, if it only applies to Chiang Mai or if it's nationwide.

We doubt this is the last we have heard of this story but we will try and seek further clarification regarding this matter.

/Moderating team

Great that you seek clarification!!!! many of us do! Please ask the Thaivisa team that has attended the recent head of immigration interview from August, 6th.

The topic 'digital nomads' visas and working wise came up countless times when we were allowed to write down our individual questions... It is 2 weeks by the day and still nothing from the event?! Answers from that day should clarify if the story is true or not.

[Soutpeel]

I love the idea that digital nomads have to be paupers. I clear more as a digital nomad than most multi-national's farang senior managers do in Thailand. As nowhere in Asia seem to want to make it easy for me to get residency and pay taxes (despite taking zero jobs from anyone); I've structured my incorporated status offshore and pay zero tax anywhere. That means I now make a LOT more than a senior manager of a multi-national in Thailand. Go figure.

So what do most MNC's farang senior managers make in Thailand then ? you can give either the gross or net amounts, no problem

[SiggiCM]

Let us say, a genuine tourist comes to Thailand for a few weeks. Most probably this tourist is a employee in his home country or he run his own business. While he stay in Thailand, he do some work online. Whatever... do conversations with clients, write blogs and so on. How could this be illegal?

IMHO, as long as someone get a Tourist Visa, he is a Tourist. I don't speak about visa exempt entries.

Is everybody crazy on TV???????

No country can give a permission for working outside the country, you can stay here 1 year and do this,

you break only the laws in the country where the work is done, if you not tax them, or not have any license if this need a license

[Eaglekott]

I checked in to this about one year ago, and several conditions apply

You must be employed in your home country, and be payed by your employer in your home country, You need to get your salary in your home country and pay all taxes there.

You can not write a single line of code for a Thai company, You can not get payed by having money sent to your thai account,

But if you work for, as an example, a Swedish company, that makes home pages for other Swedish companies and you get your salary in Sweden by that Swedish company, and you pay Swedish taxes you are allow to sit here in Thailand and work on a Tourist Visa.

How (and who) established these conditions and did they put it in writing ??

Those conditions was explained to us from the Thai Consulate in Stockholm.

[ColdSingha]

So where do you pay taxes if you are a digital nomad?

If you stay XXX amount of days in Thailand they have right to tax you.

Should be no problem on a single visa since you wont hit the hard limit on days in the country.

(and I dont remember but its around 180 days at least for Swedes were the tax should be payed in Thailand instead of Sweden.

And when the Thai government understands that they can earn a ton of tax money on this: could be fun.)

183 days is the OECD model convention to which schengen / euro counties operate.. This is also superceeded depending on source of income, amount fo clients, all manner of variables. It can be day one when working for a local establishment.

Thailand does not operate that the same way. They expect day 1 when working within the kingdom.

depends if you receive income directly i suppose

Edited August 21, 2014 by ColdSingha

[bino]

I suspect it was just another Thai official shooting their mouth off without any real backing.

I suspect that you are absolutely correct. Superintendent of Chiang Mai Immigration talking a lot of smack just like the Superintendent of Hua Hin Immigration a few weeks ago who said that all foreigners must carry their passport on their person at all times.

This is going to need a lot of clarification directly from the top.

[jessc]

Seems to me there are some key words in the Chiang Mai article...

Not working for a Thai employer ... and... "nomad"

If you live in Thailand all or most of the time, you're not a nomad. So anything relating to a hypothetical digital nomad doesn't apply to you. If you are one of those people who is fortunate to be able to work digitally, and you in fact move around a lot, I suspect Thailand is not interested in trying to track and regulate your work -- provided you are not working for a thai employer and your work does not involve Thai commerce.

If you live in Thailand full time or most of the time, and are either self-employed or employed by a Thai company and your work is done online, you may well be subject to work permit requirements.

Seems to me the "nomad" part of "digital nomad" is pretty essential to understanding what the statement is about.

[aripengu]

A few people talking about tax in this thread.

Remember, tax avoidance is a legal and logical exercise. Tax dodging is not.

Most digital nomads (and I still hate that term) that I know, the ones that have been at it many years, do pay tax, they simply make sure they pay as little as necessary, nothing wrong with that. Sure, the ones I know living in Thailand don't pay tax locally, but I am darn sure they would if they could, especially if it were at standard Thai income tax rates.

Even if they pat the Tax elsewhere, if they spend their money in Thailand they will pay plenty of taxes evrytime they buy something.

[Pattszero]

>Thats from the horses mouth, but in direct contradiction of every other immigration and labor office spokesperson or official statement.

No doubt it will soon be corrected in another statement saying that technically this kind of working is actually not allowed.

What they're really want to say is that this rule is not being enforced, and they are trying to rid the country of criminals and those working in jobs that Thai's could do.

If you're a digital nomad (or a millionaire playboy) it's interesting to know what the immigration and police departments deem worthy of enforcement.

The sanctimonious old codgers will continue to shout (where their ailing lungs allow) about their strict interpretation of the law and resentfully wish for the days of the 1900's when they were the only white man in town, and treated like the rare birds that they know themselves to be.

I do respectfully and humble; while doing so genuily, dare to ask an exact definition of a digital nomad?

Is it some random snipets of code who wander in the network, the so called 'angels' back in the 70' (term used in some Phd thesis at that time)?????

Or is a 'catch-all' word, used to easily define a group of human being unable to find a decent employment in their own country (too many candidates, so only the top best are selected) or in this country (too many candidates, even with top best out, so only the very best can compete)?

I do understand people such as Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckenberg or Bill Gates can, is they so choose, became digital nomads and earn billions a day working remotly; what I do not grasp is the same naming being used by Joe Smith, Mr Allcome, or a noboddy who barely get enought to buy a Chang in 7/11?

You may, if you please, P.M. and decline your qualities on the related field. Being who I am, with the qualifications I have, I rarely got any trouble to land a decent job with decent salary (6 digits a bare minimum in tbh) in the related field. Most of the so called digital nomad, SEO expert, coding guru, or whatever name; are usualy OR incompetent (at best not at the level they claim) OR lazy (unable to provide the amount of work a decent employer expect from employees) OR total fraud (sometimes the 3 at the same time).

LAst, being an old codger myself (or about, I prefer to define myself as old french fart), I found both pathetic and humoristic kids trying to explain me what life is about (they certainly did not pee where I did, and will never do so) , while on the same time trying to explain me what my work is about (digital nomad is anathema to most the specialities they claim to master). There are works that can be done remote (Sun promoted it, I believe Apple did it also at one time); but there are others that are not possible, depending too much of the local conditions of the network (and that is starter , easy to understand by layman people; obviously there is more to say about it, but it will become too much tech blahblah for that place).

So, in Thailand, the real Digital Nomad must be very very little, I would guess less than a hundred; and yes Immigration will turn a blind eye on them, because they make LOT of money to come here (and I do know it well, having the firt experience in 2003/2005 in Lopburi); here we are talking about well over 6 digits a month on a regulary basis. All the others, fighting to get a living at best in Thai standard (mean earning about 20 000) have no right , legaly AND moraly to claim for anything but the same as everyone. They get a visa allowing to do so, if there is not, then they shall move on; if they are high end residents I am quite sure LOT OF COUNTRIES will accept them .... In fact I do not even understand while they are still here, other expats do not love them, locals do not provide them with legal documentation, police want to expel them. Why are they still here??????????????

You don't know what you are talking about.

[duanebigsby]

I am guessing the hostility from other foreigners on this forum towards digital nomads is based on the fact they are frustrated with their own lowly earning power in the Kingdom, e.g. a few hundred dollars a month for teaching English to a load of little brats.

I wouldn't get out of my deck chair for that! lol.

I am perfectly happy making my pittance of a wage teaching English here. I live a splendidly comfortable life here.

I don't envy you in the least.

I've never said I thought the internet entrepreneurs to be bad sorts, but I agree with JLCrabb, that Thailand wants IT people to actually invest and hire Thais, not just live here.

The only thing I object to is the condescension, arrogance,

and he "I'm so much better than all you old retired ba$t@@ds" mentality.

I've never been resentful of someone with more money until they brag about it.

[sawati]

There we go again...Thaivisa tangling the line!!

[gringo99]

Wat different if they know or not ?

If ur digital nomad they will let s u stay in Thailand full year on tourist visa

[Pattszero]

Seems to me there are some key words in the Chiang Mai article...

Not working for a Thai employer ... and... "nomad"

If you live in Thailand all or most of the time, you're not a nomad. So anything relating to a hypothetical digital nomad doesn't apply to you. If you are one of those people who is fortunate to be able to work digitally, and you in fact move around a lot, I suspect Thailand is not interested in trying to track and regulate your work -- provided you are not working for a thai employer and your work does not involve Thai commerce.

If you live in Thailand full time or most of the time, and are either self-employed or employed by a Thai company and your work is done online, you may well be subject to work permit requirements.

Seems to me the "nomad" part of "digital nomad" is pretty essential to understanding what the statement is about.

Nomads don't need to be on the move all of the time. Even traditional nomads would settle down by the oasis for the winter. Nomads in Thailand are now limited as to how many tourist visas they can get - so by definition, can't put down roots.

No roots? - nomad.

[Equalizer]

I am a classic example of a digital nomad. I manufacture all my goods in India. I ship everything from India worldwide. I take all currencies. All these currencies get exchanged into Thai Baht and go in my Siam Commercial. All i do is act as the conductor overseeing the orchestra from my abode in Thailand.

[Strangebrew]

I will wait for the final say on this matter not wishing to bend, break, or circumvent the law. If this turns out in fact to be ok It would end up employing Thais. At least what I would like to do. I would have customers biting at the bit. And need several Thai's to handle the shipping end.

[Loptr]

Finally, all the people saying "you need a work permit" can stuff a sock in it...

[jessc]

I am a classic example of a digital nomad. I manufacture all my goods in India. I ship everything from India worldwide. I take all currencies. All these currencies get exchanged into Thai Baht and go in my Siam Commercial. All i do is act as the conductor overseeing the orchestra from my abode in Thailand.

Unless "nomad" is legally defined as YOU being nomadic, and not your business operations being nomadic. Thailand (if there is a legal definition of nomad in Thailand) may define a nomad as someone who lives in many places, and thus excludes anyone who lives here full time.

[SGD]

Thailand's tax position is that income derived more than 12 months ago is classed as capital and there are no taxes on capital. Thus, if you are domiciled in a country which only taxes income repatriated to that country when you are in residence for a specific number of days per year and you do not meet those requirements, you are free to roll up that income until such time as your physical residence of Thailand classes it as capital and thus satisfy your legal tax obligations in both countries, albeit without paying any taxes.

[jessc]

Seems to me there are some key words in the Chiang Mai article...

Not working for a Thai employer ... and... "nomad"

If you live in Thailand all or most of the time, you're not a nomad. So anything relating to a hypothetical digital nomad doesn't apply to you. If you are one of those people who is fortunate to be able to work digitally, and you in fact move around a lot, I suspect Thailand is not interested in trying to track and regulate your work -- provided you are not working for a thai employer and your work does not involve Thai commerce.

If you live in Thailand full time or most of the time, and are either self-employed or employed by a Thai company and your work is done online, you may well be subject to work permit requirements.

Seems to me the "nomad" part of "digital nomad" is pretty essential to understanding what the statement is about.

Nomads don't need to be on the move all of the time. Even traditional nomads would settle down by the oasis for the winter. Nomads in Thailand are now limited as to how many tourist visas they can get - so by definition, can't put down roots.

No roots? - nomad.

As it relates to legal rules, methinks "nomad" (i.e., the Thai word for nomad) would actually need a legal definition - as opposed to a common usage or dictionary definition.

[impulse]

Hello Forum!

My first post so go easy on me. I am a digital nomad for over 10 years now and have worked many times from Thailand in cafes etc. I pay my taxes in the UK as my income is derived from the UK.

I don't really understand why anyone would have a problem with the concept of working remotely when it has no negative impact whatsoever on the host country.

As many have said the only consequence is an extra foreign body spending their foreign earnings in Thailand on accommodation, coffee, food, travel etc.

How can this be an issue?

You use the streets in Thailand. You drink the water in Thailand. You are protected by the police and military in Thailand. You use Thailand's roads and mass transit. You are protected from having a building fall on you by Thai building inspectors. Thai health department money protects you from Ebola and scads of other threats, whether you know it or not. Thai money kills the mosquitoes so you don't get dengue. The list goes on and on.

All that costs money, and yours is going to the UK where it doesn't do the Thai people much benefit.

You pay 7% VAT on the stuff you buy here. That doesn't come close to covering your share of the wear and tear on the infrastructure.

You pump some money into the economy. Thai's that earn the same money to pump into the economy also pump a lot more into the tax coffers.

You're getting a free ride in Thailand, and that's the issue. I love visitors to my home. So do the Thai's. But if my guests plan to stay for 10 years, they probably ought to chip in some rent and put some food into the fridge occasionally.

If you disagree with that, I dare you to go to the Revenue Department back home and claim you pump so much money into the economy that you shouldn't be required to pay taxes on top of your VAT, GST or sales tax.

Edited August 21, 2014 by impulse

[VINCENT2012]

digital nomad ????????

a nomad...long time ago....well..... perhaps but this thing....... what the hell is that ?

[max72]

well this makes sense, even because how can they control you ?

I just check my stocks in NYSE with my laptop, no Thai company no Thai stocks, It is not even working, just investing, shopping, ....in USA.

What about poker online ?

Yes, it wouldn t make sense to chase those people and it wouldn t be possible, so better say, you can do that and that s it.

These are not the guys who give problems to Thailand...

[OnMyWay2]

I am a classic example of a digital nomad. I manufacture all my goods in India. I ship everything from India worldwide. I take all currencies. All these currencies get exchanged into Thai Baht and go in my Siam Commercial. All i do is act as the conductor overseeing the orchestra from my abode in Thailand.

What type of Visa though? No work permit means your a tourist.

[Eaglekott]

I checked in to this about one year ago, and several conditions apply

You must be employed in your home country, and be payed by your employer in your home country, You need to get your salary in your home country and pay all taxes there.

You can not write a single line of code for a Thai company, You can not get payed by having money sent to your thai account,

But if you work for, as an example, a Swedish company, that makes home pages for other Swedish companies and you get your salary in Sweden by that Swedish company, and you pay Swedish taxes you are allow to sit here in Thailand and work on a Tourist Visa.

How (and who) established these conditions and did they put it in writing ??

Those conditions was explained to us from the Thai Consulate in Stockholm.

And here is a Swedish webpage concluded about the same thing: (Google translated)

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paradisebusinesscamp.se%2Fvisum-till-thailand-vid-arbete-via-internet&edit-text=

[Equalizer]

They should create a tourist/foreign worker visa and make sure that they have to declare the income and have the revenue deposited into a Thai bank account so that they can collect taxes on it.

It is not inland revenue!!!

[j8k]

Hello Forum!

My first post so go easy on me. I am a digital nomad for over 10 years now and have worked many times from Thailand in cafes etc. I pay my taxes in the UK as my income is derived from the UK.

I don't really understand why anyone would have a problem with the concept of working remotely when it has no negative impact whatsoever on the host country.

As many have said the only consequence is an extra foreign body spending their foreign earnings in Thailand on accommodation, coffee, food, travel etc.

How can this be an issue?

You use the streets in Thailand. You drink the water in Thailand. You are protected by the police and military in Thailand. You use Thailand's roads and mass transit. You are protected from having a building fall on you by Thai building inspectors. Thai health department money protects you from Ebola and scads of other threats, whether you know it or not. Thai money kills the mosquitoes so you don't get dengue. The list goes on and on.

All that costs money, and yours is going to the UK where it doesn't do the Thai people much benefit.

You pay 7% VAT on the stuff you buy here. That doesn't come close to covering your share of the wear and tear on the infrastructure.

You pump some money into the economy. Thai's that earn the same money to pump into the economy also pump a lot more into the tax coffers.

You're getting a free ride in Thailand, and that's the issue. I love visitors to my home. So do the Thai's. But if my guests plan to stay for 10 years, they probably ought to chip in some rent and put some food into the fridge occasionally.

If you disagree with that, I dare you to go to the Revenue Department back home and claim you pump so much money into the economy that you shouldn't be required to pay taxes on top of your VAT, GST or sales tax.

Sorry but tourists also don't pay anything like you have listed above either and the times I have been in Thailand I've probably spent much more than your average tourist, indeed much much more than a 10 dollar backpacker eating street food and living in a bamboo hut!

What about retired people getting their UK pension paid to them in Thailand? No difference in my book.

What about someone living off rental income from their UK property? No difference in my book.

[Guest]

.

Yes, but remember, you won't be living here on tourist visa after tourist visa after tourist visa after visa exempt stamp ad nauseam. At some point you will be turned down.

I am sure the IO meant that a tourist can come and do his biz for the short time of his visit.

'nuff said

~

Thank You ... Perfect linear logic. Of course while you are on holiday they do not expect you to close shop and not do your international business. Your posting is much appreciated.

[RolandRat]

It all academic! It doesnt matter one hoot what it says in some town newspaper, or for that matter what 'the law' states, you people all bleating on like back room lawyers and arguing the toss and missing the vital point, this is Thailand and your arguing is laughable, do you really and honestly think 'somchai policeman' complete with gun and uniform will give a toss what you say or think if he is told, or has reason to believe, to arrest you!

No, he couldnt careless, he's going to arrest you if told to, you will be thrown in a dark stinky cell, until dealt with at their conveneience.

Whilst eating your fish head head soup you can contemplate "whats legal" and what happened in reality as they are rarely the same.

You may or may not have a vaild point or argument, but that wont detract from the traumatic time and what you may go through until it is proven one way or the other, you really want to take that gamble ? I wouldnt.

Edited August 21, 2014 by RolandRat

[jagfx]

A digital nomad, or someone that is location independent, can travel the world bouncing around country to country on tourist visas, and would more than likely have a base eg Australia, where they would pay the legal taxes required.

This is my life as a Forex Trader. If I visit Thailand for a few months, then I will be combining holiday with my online trading. Obviously not taking any work from Thais and in the meantime I am putting my hard earned to good use by spending in Thailand. Sure I am a guest of the country and accepting any infrastructure benefits, medical services, protection of the police etc, just like a Thai tourist to Australia would be afforded. Once my visa expires or I decide to move on, I just pack up and head to somewhere else like Bali or Vietnam, or whatever other country takes my fancy. Perpetual traveler with a home base. Pretty simple really.

I guess the problem arises when someone like me moves to a country like Thailand on a more permanent basis, and not on a tourist visa. This is where I see issues with regards to taking advantage of the 'free services' you won't be paying for, even though you may still be legally complying with your originating country's tax laws etc.

And for those of you that don't think there are many digital nomads operating out of Thailand, I think you are sadly mistaken. Head up to Chang Mai and sus out the scene there. Cheers.

[Equalizer]

I am a classic example of a digital nomad. I manufacture all my goods in India. I ship everything from India worldwide. I take all currencies. All these currencies get exchanged into Thai Baht and go in my Siam Commercial. All i do is act as the conductor overseeing the orchestra from my abode in Thailand.

Unless "nomad" is legally defined as YOU being nomadic, and not your business operations being nomadic. Thailand (if there is a legal definition of nomad in Thailand) may define a nomad as someone who lives in many places, and thus excludes anyone who lives here full time.

I think the word nomad is used to define several factors, in my case.

1. Is this person taking a potential Thai job? NO

2. Is this person buying and selling goods from Thailand? NO

3. Is this persons income inland revenue? NO

4. Is this persons income out land revenue? YES

This is basically the same as someone taking savings from an overseas bank and depositing into a Thai bank to put into the Thai economy simply to stay here.

In my case i have a Thai wife and a daughter, School fees, health care, mortgage, car, and if i am luck a few soups down at the local every now and then.