Netanyahu declares 'victory' in Gaza

[Naam]

Netanyahu and his claim "Victory in Gaza" reminds me of a great statesman who declared some years ago "mission accomplished!"

[Jingthing]

Too bad Gaza cannot rebuild because construction materials have been banned for years.

That must be how they built those luxury hotels, modern shopping malls and tunnels.

Thank You UG,

Please keep posting remarks like this - it does more for the Anti Zionist cause that any amount of debate ever could.

If Hamas isn't a terror organization, why did they take the construction materials they did get to build terror tunnels going into Israel? Israel really has no choice but keep on top of what goes in to Gaza. But as long as Hamas is still in charge, you can be sure they will just rearm again. The anti-Zionism cause is the antisemitic cause of Hamas -- denying the right of the Jews to have political self determination in their own homeland of Israel. Anti-Zionism is a racist cause, an evil cause, a cause that singles out Jewish people for especially unfair treatment. A state that has existed for 1948 still constantly challenged that it's existence was ever legitimate. Why? Because it is a JEWISH state. Could Palestinians make peace with Israel ... sure they could ... just bloody ACCEPT the existence of the state of Israel and SHOW in actions that acceptance is real.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Jingthing

[joepublic]

Here is an ad placed in the NY times by jewish holocaust survivors regarding the recent gaza conflict

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/holocaust-survivors-palestinians.html

Even Holocaust Survivors call what the Zionists are doing a Massacre.

Lets predict the response of the two main Zionist Apologists here.

"These are Self Hating, Anti Semetic, Holocaust Denier, Liberal, Tree Hugging Jews"

That's if they respond at all!

I spend a considerable amount of time as an Israeli apologist on these pages; considerable. I have never said such a thing. In no diplomatic treatise, document, or current discourse are the Jews of Israel called "Zionists;" though they are by you (and others). Indeed, when I increasingly realize that people like you are using "zionist" it begs me to consider how vacant your points are that follow. Rarely is great depth presented, only refuge in pejoratives when statements include this refuge- "zionist."

I have made it abundantly clear I afford these survivors no more credibility than any other. It is a choice I make and while their message is contrary to my position, that is not why. I just don't see the value in assigning them some preeminent authority because they survived something horrible, and that it is equal to Gaza, and therefore valid. You see, I don't concede what is happening in the middle east is equal, therefore the authority for which their declaration rests is void in my opinion. It has nothing to do with being Jews, or not, or survivors, or not. I just don't think it is a comparable position for which authority is then granted as a subject matter expert. Does the material needed to continually represent your point of view desperately require replenishing with pejoratives or other allies?

If I went through this thread and counted my posts supporting Israel I might be near the top 2-3 people supporting Israel; maybe. Yet you throw such an incendiary statement out there that nets me into a nasty, provocative statement that I never made. Be more exact or don't throw bombs, please.

To be honest, I was referring to two others here - not you. I try to use sarcasm or comedy to expose them, because they cant engage in debate without wheeling out the same tired old "human shield" or "Anti Semite" nonsense.

I have a question for you - which part of my post is incendiary and why? I may be mocking them, but surely its nothing to get angry about?

[Jingthing]

Here is an ad placed in the NY times by jewish holocaust survivors regarding the recent gaza conflict

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/holocaust-survivors-palestinians.html

Even Holocaust Survivors call what the Zionists are doing a Massacre.

Lets predict the response of the two main Zionist Apologists here.

"These are Self Hating, Anti Semetic, Holocaust Denier, Liberal, Tree Hugging Jews"

That's if they respond at all!

I spend a considerable amount of time as an Israeli apologist on these pages; considerable. I have never said such a thing. In no diplomatic treatise, document, or current discourse are the Jews of Israel called "Zionists;" though they are by you (and others). Indeed, when I increasingly realize that people like you are using "zionist" it begs me to consider how vacant your points are that follow. Rarely is great depth presented, only refuge in pejoratives when statements include this refuge- "zionist."

I have made it abundantly clear I afford these survivors no more credibility than any other. It is a choice I make and while their message is contrary to my position, that is not why. I just don't see the value in assigning them some preeminent authority because they survived something horrible, and that it is equal to Gaza, and therefore valid. You see, I don't concede what is happening in the middle east is equal, therefore the authority for which their declaration rests is void in my opinion. It has nothing to do with being Jews, or not, or survivors, or not. I just don't think it is a comparable position for which authority is then granted as a subject matter expert. Does the material needed to continually represent your point of view desperately require replenishing with pejoratives or other allies?

If I went through this thread and counted my posts supporting Israel I might be near the top 2-3 people supporting Israel; maybe. Yet you throw such an incendiary statement out there that nets me into a nasty, provocative statement that I never made. Be more exact or don't throw bombs, please.

To be honest, I was referring to two others here - not you. I try to use sarcasm or comedy to expose them, because they cant engage in debate without wheeling out the same tired old "human shield" or "Anti Semite" nonsense.

I have a question for you - which part of my post is incendiary and why? I may be mocking them, but surely its nothing to get angry about?

Criticism of Israel policies is not necessarily antisemitic (NOBODY HAS EVER SAID THAT HERE) but of course many critics of Israeli policy are indeed Jew haters, and they usually reveal themselves to be that way, either subtly or blatantly.

As a diaspora Jew I think criticism of Israeli POLICIES and POLITICIANS is not only welcome but NEEDED to make things better, especially from Jews, Israeli and diaspora Jews.

Supporting Israel's continued existence does not mean that all Jews should ever feel obligated to support each and every Israeli government policy and politician. Which is of course a moot point, as they DON'T.

As far as anti-Zionism, I have posted numerous links supporting my POV that anti-Zionism actually IS a cover for antisemitism. I accept of course not everyone agrees with that, but it is a well supported POV and the fact that a small minority of Jewish people in the world are also actively anti-Zionist in no way disproves it.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Jingthing

[joepublic]

Too bad Gaza cannot rebuild because construction materials have been banned for years.

That must be how they built those luxury hotels, modern shopping malls and tunnels.

Thank You UG,

Please keep posting remarks like this - it does more for the Anti Zionist cause that any amount of debate ever could.

If Hamas isn't a terror organization, why did they take the construction materials they did get to build terror tunnels going into Israel? Israel really has no choice but keep on top of what goes in to Gaza. But as long as Hamas is still in charge, you can be sure they will just rearm again. The anti-Zionism cause is the antisemitic cause of Hamas -- denying the right of the Jews to have political self determination in their own homeland of Israel. Anti-Zionism is a racist cause, an evil cause, a cause that singles out Jewish people for especially unfair treatment. A state that has existed for 1948 still constantly challenged that it's existence was ever legitimate. Why? Because it is a JEWISH state. Could Palestinians make peace with Israel ... sure they could ... just bloody ACCEPT the existence of the state of Israel and SHOW in actions that acceptance is real.

TERROR: What you call terror, others call resistance. Why do you refuse to see this?

"The anti-Zionism cause is the antisemitic cause" .

You see, you are doing it again - trying to reframe everything as anti Semitic. You conveniently forget that the European Ashkenazi Zionists stole their land and then you launch into a "you hate us because we are Jews", when the reality is "we hate you because you stole our land, and kill us every day".

I may be wrong, but I don't think Hamas would stop resisting the Zionists if they happened to be Scientologists...but maybe I'm wrong?

As for solutions, there are many, but we are so far from any possible concessions from the Zionists, that no one can imagine any progress being made to peace.

Edited August 29, 2014 by joepublic

[Jingthing]

Anti-Zionists actively oppose the existence of Israel, the nation state homeland of the Jewish people. You can't really get more anti-Jewish people than that, mate.

As far as the terror tunnels are concerned, the information that I have is that the intention of the tunnels was to go into Israeli lands and INTENTIONALLY mass murder innocent Jews, and also kidnap Jews for political ransom purposes.

Anti-Zionists are so used to being able to use that vile term without being challenged for what that term REALLY means. It's time Jews and friends of Israel start to challenge the so called "anti-Zionists" now more than ever. Expose the REAL intentions of the so called "anti-Zionist" cause.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Jingthing

[arjunadawn]

Here is an ad placed in the NY times by jewish holocaust survivors regarding the recent gaza conflict

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/holocaust-survivors-palestinians.html

Even Holocaust Survivors call what the Zionists are doing a Massacre.

Lets predict the response of the two main Zionist Apologists here.

"These are Self Hating, Anti Semetic, Holocaust Denier, Liberal, Tree Hugging Jews"

That's if they respond at all!

I spend a considerable amount of time as an Israeli apologist on these pages; considerable. I have never said such a thing. In no diplomatic treatise, document, or current discourse are the Jews of Israel called "Zionists;" though they are by you (and others). Indeed, when I increasingly realize that people like you are using "zionist" it begs me to consider how vacant your points are that follow. Rarely is great depth presented, only refuge in pejoratives when statements include this refuge- "zionist."

I have made it abundantly clear I afford these survivors no more credibility than any other. It is a choice I make and while their message is contrary to my position, that is not why. I just don't see the value in assigning them some preeminent authority because they survived something horrible, and that it is equal to Gaza, and therefore valid. You see, I don't concede what is happening in the middle east is equal, therefore the authority for which their declaration rests is void in my opinion. It has nothing to do with being Jews, or not, or survivors, or not. I just don't think it is a comparable position for which authority is then granted as a subject matter expert. Does the material needed to continually represent your point of view desperately require replenishing with pejoratives or other allies?

If I went through this thread and counted my posts supporting Israel I might be near the top 2-3 people supporting Israel; maybe. Yet you throw such an incendiary statement out there that nets me into a nasty, provocative statement that I never made. Be more exact or don't throw bombs, please.

To be honest, I was referring to two others here - not you. I try to use sarcasm or comedy to expose them, because they cant engage in debate without wheeling out the same tired old "human shield" or "Anti Semite" nonsense.

I have a question for you - which part of my post is incendiary and why? I may be mocking them, but surely its nothing to get angry about?

Nah, I am not angry. I am old. They begin to look the same. :-)

There is a lot of talk on these forums, on both sides, that finesses pretty impolite associations and ascribes motives maybe not present. To a small extent it is true. However, for me there is a deeper reason I continue to post. I am looking for the few people undecided to look more deeply at the context I try to outline regarding these issues. When something is put in quotations like this I was kinda shocked that someone would actually say this. If they had not, you shoulda skipped the quotations. if they had said this, maybe they shoulda stayed in bed. My effort to find minds in the middle is not made easier by someone on my 'team' saying "These are Self Hating, Anti Semetic, Holocaust Denier, Liberal, Tree Hugging Jews" I am not anti Gaza, I am... worried about something else, but related.

[joepublic]

Anti-Zionists actively oppose the existence of Israel, the nation state homeland of the Jewish people. You can't really get more anti-Jewish people than that, mate.

Where does it say Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people? Before you refer me to God, please realize that we live by the laws of man, not of YOUR God.

[arjunadawn]

Criticism of Israel policies is not necessarily antisemitic (NOBODY HAS EVER SAID THAT HERE) but of course many critics of Israeli policy are indeed Jew haters, and they usually reveal themselves to be that way, either subtly or blatantly.

As a diaspora Jew I think criticism of Israeli POLICIES and POLITICIANS is not only welcome but NEEDED to make things better, especially from Jews, Israeli and diaspora Jews.

Supporting Israel's continued existence does not mean that all Jews should ever feel obligated to support each and every Israeli government policy and politician. Which is of course a moot point, as they DON'T.

As far as anti-Zionism, I have posted numerous links supporting my POV that anti-Zionism actually IS a cover for antisemitism. I accept of course not everyone agrees with that, but it is a well supported POV and the fact that a small minority of Jewish people in the world are also actively anti-Zionist in no way disproves it.

Funny, I have arrived at the same conclusions as you regarding antizionism being a cloak for antisemitism. While not necessarily true in all cases, I cant help but find that this is my gut sensibility often. I have done no real research on this point, just a gut feeling. When antizionism-like statements are invariably built upon with the same stale arguments or vacant facts I begin to wonder what is actually masked here. Again, not all.

[Jingthing]

Anti-Zionists actively oppose the existence of Israel, the nation state homeland of the Jewish people. You can't really get more anti-Jewish people than that, mate.

Where does it say Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people? Before you refer me to God, please realize that we live by the laws of man, not of YOUR God.

I am not going down this dark hole with you.

But you have confirmed my perception, as an anti-Zionist, you don't accept that the state of Israel ever existed.

[Seastallion]

Israel, created by League of Nations, destroyed by Hamas and all in a matter of three generations.

Israel is thriving and Hamas just got their butts badly kicked, yet again. Delusional much?

When Hamas sets off its first tactical nuclear device (made in North Korea), in down-town Tel Aviv then I guess you'll be doing more than laughing. Then I would bet that ALL Arab nations will join forces very quickly - quite a shift really.

Ah, the faux-liberals wet dream. The fact that in such an eventuality thousands of Palestinians would likely die seems to have been forgotten. It does show the phony humanitarianism that many Israel demonizers attempt to sanitize their hatred with.

Nothing phony at all. Just because I deplore Israel's inhumanity towards Palestinians, does not mean I condone a Hamas nuke. Neither, I daresay, does Loongdavid. He is merely commenting on a potential event that should be considered as viable.

You should realise that your team's catch-cry of "Israeli demonizers" is getting quite hackneyed and hollow. As is the attempts to blur the lines between antisemite and anti_Zionist.

"Lies", "phony", "demonizer", antisemite", "hatred", "hateful"......all this emotive language may have been effective (to the ignorant masses you hoped to sway) weeks ago, but now it just rings so hollow and meaningless to everyone, just as Netanyahu's faux-macho speeches.

[joepublic]

I have made it abundantly clear I afford these survivors no more credibility than any other. It is a choice I make and while their message is contrary to my position, that is not why. I just don't see the value in assigning them some preeminent authority because they survived something horrible, and that it is equal to Gaza, and therefore valid. You see, I don't concede what is happening in the middle east is equal, therefore the authority for which their declaration rests is void in my opinion. It has nothing to do with being Jews, or not, or survivors, or not. I just don't think it is a comparable position for which authority is then granted as a subject matter expert. Does the material needed to continually represent your point of view desperately require replenishing with pejoratives or other allies?

I wanted to address your point that everyone who expresses the opinion that there is a "massacre in gaza", should have equal weight. I respectfully disagree.

If this statement came from a group of Palestinians, then we could expect them to say something like this.

But it comes from Jewish people, and those whose history specifically the Zionists use to justify their actions. Therefore, it is on two counts that their contrary opinion is surprising and therefore should be looked at more seriously.

Imagine a group of 40 Palestinians who were around during the Nakba (Palestinian Holocaust), and raised $180K to run an advert in the Arab press, supporting Israel's use of force, would you not consider that to be something worth listening to, rather than Hamas?

[joepublic]

Anti-Zionists actively oppose the existence of Israel, the nation state homeland of the Jewish people. You can't really get more anti-Jewish people than that, mate.

Where does it say Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people? Before you refer me to God, please realize that we live by the laws of man, not of YOUR God.

I am not going down this dark hole with you.

But you have confirmed my perception, as an anti-Zionist, you don't accept that the state of Israel ever existed.

I ask you once again to show me where it is stated that Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people.

Can you do this, or will you simply hide in the dark hole of denial?

[arjunadawn]

Anti-Zionists actively oppose the existence of Israel, the nation state homeland of the Jewish people. You can't really get more anti-Jewish people than that, mate.

Where does it say Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people? Before you refer me to God, please realize that we live by the laws of man, not of YOUR God.

I am not going down this dark hole with you.

But you have confirmed my perception, as an anti-Zionist, you don't accept that the state of Israel ever existed.

Flavius Josephus; Antiquities (of the Jews)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews

This is history, not biblical. He wrote from Rome, as a member of the House of Falvius. Therefore, whatever notes he has made must be seen in the light of historiography- likely true!

Any other questions?

[up-country_sinclair]

Criticism of Israel policies is not necessarily antisemitic (NOBODY HAS EVER SAID THAT HERE) but of course many critics of Israeli policy are indeed Jew haters, and they usually reveal themselves to be that way, either subtly or blatantly.

As a diaspora Jew I think criticism of Israeli POLICIES and POLITICIANS is not only welcome but NEEDED to make things better, especially from Jews, Israeli and diaspora Jews.

Supporting Israel's continued existence does not mean that all Jews should ever feel obligated to support each and every Israeli government policy and politician. Which is of course a moot point, as they DON'T.

As far as anti-Zionism, I have posted numerous links supporting my POV that anti-Zionism actually IS a cover for antisemitism. I accept of course not everyone agrees with that, but it is a well supported POV and the fact that a small minority of Jewish people in the world are also actively anti-Zionist in no way disproves it.

I haven't read a single post from the regular posters on any of these threads about the Israel problem that would qualify as "Jew hating".

I can't speak for the trolls who suddenly show up with a very low post count and whose posts (and presumably their user names) are quickly deleted. From their perspective of being a troll, however, I'll bet they think they've been successful due to the reaction they've gotten.

By the way, I have read many Islam and Muslim hating posts from regular posters on these threads about the Israel problem, but I suppose that is just not a concern.

Back on the topic of the thread, I wonder if Netanyahu will come back out to do another victory dance on the graves of the murdered children again, or was once enough?

Edited August 29, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[arjunadawn]

I have made it abundantly clear I afford these survivors no more credibility than any other. It is a choice I make and while their message is contrary to my position, that is not why. I just don't see the value in assigning them some preeminent authority because they survived something horrible, and that it is equal to Gaza, and therefore valid. You see, I don't concede what is happening in the middle east is equal, therefore the authority for which their declaration rests is void in my opinion. It has nothing to do with being Jews, or not, or survivors, or not. I just don't think it is a comparable position for which authority is then granted as a subject matter expert. Does the material needed to continually represent your point of view desperately require replenishing with pejoratives or other allies?

I wanted to address your point that everyone who expresses the opinion that there is a "massacre in gaza", should have equal weight. I respectfully disagree.

If this statement came from a group of Palestinians, then we could expect them to say something like this.

But it comes from Jewish people, and those whose history specifically the Zionists use to justify their actions. Therefore, it is on two counts that their contrary opinion is surprising and therefore should be looked at more seriously.

Imagine a group of 40 Palestinians who were around during the Nakba (Palestinian Holocaust), and raised $180K to run an advert in the Arab press, supporting Israel's use of force, would you not consider that to be something worth listening to, rather than Hamas?

This is the heart of such issues- how two inquiring minds can look at the same thing and walk away with differing impressions. In order for the value of such people to have weight it is inferred that it is related to the ongoing 'holocaust' in Gaza? Otherwise, it has no real gravity at all and it could just as easily have been a kibutz group writing the open letter. But it implies its moral authority because it suggests their vantage point (WWII survivors) can condemn gaza actions as similar, as they have seen. It is this predicate that I object to. The conclusion cannot be used as the basis for the argument as to their validity. I don't concur there is a genocide in gaza. It is circular, IMO.

[up-country_sinclair]

Israel, the nation state homeland of the Jewish people.

There is no such thing as the "Jewish people". There are people who are Jews, of course. Just like their are people who are Muslim and people who are Scientologists.

[joepublic]

Anti-Zionists actively oppose the existence of Israel, the nation state homeland of the Jewish people. You can't really get more anti-Jewish people than that, mate.

Where does it say Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people? Before you refer me to God, please realize that we live by the laws of man, not of YOUR God.

I am not going down this dark hole with you.

But you have confirmed my perception, as an anti-Zionist, you don't accept that the state of Israel ever existed.

Flavius Josephus; Antiquities (of the Jews)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews

This is history, not biblical. He wrote from Rome, as a member of the House of Falvius. Therefore, whatever notes he has made must be seen in the light of historiography- likely true!

Any other questions?

I have a question.

I know you must have read this book, please point out the parts that gives the Jews a claim to the land that would stand up in an international court of law.

[up-country_sinclair]

Anti-Zionists actively oppose the existence of Israel, the nation state homeland of the Jewish people. You can't really get more anti-Jewish people than that, mate.

Where does it say Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people? Before you refer me to God, please realize that we live by the laws of man, not of YOUR God.

I am not going down this dark hole with you.

But you have confirmed my perception, as an anti-Zionist, you don't accept that the state of Israel ever existed.

I ask you once again to show me where it is stated that Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people.

Can you do this, or will you simply hide in the dark hole of denial?

This whole "Israel as a Jewish state" thing was a craftily calculated move by Netanyahu designed to derail talks on the two state solution. Netanyahu does not believe in the two state solution and does not want peace. On this there is no doubt.

[joepublic]

This is the heart of such issues- how two inquiring minds can look at the same thing and walk away with differing impressions. In order for the value of such people to have weight it is inferred that it is related to the ongoing 'holocaust' in Gaza? Otherwise, it has no real gravity at all and it could just as easily have been a kibutz group writing the open letter. But it implies its moral authority because it suggests their vantage point (WWII survivors) can condemn gaza actions as similar, as they have seen. It is this predicate that I object to. The conclusion cannot be used as the basis for the argument as to their validity. I don't concur there is a genocide in gaza. It is circular, IMO.

Leaders take their moral authority from those they claim to represent.

Zionists claim to represent people like these

Ipso facto, these people do have moral authority

Q.E.D ;-)

Edited August 29, 2014 by joepublic

[arjunadawn]

Israel, the nation state homeland of the Jewish people.

There is no such thing as the "Jewish people". There are people who are Jews, of course. Just like their are people who are Muslim and people who are Scientologists.

Such a statement could hardly be accidentally created. Jews did not self ID as Jews until the 13th century, thereabouts. Previously, and in quranic lore as well, they were refereed to as "Children of Israel." This ID encompassed all the tribes, but also gives suggestion to the descendents of Ishmael as well. Not only is there non biblical/torah support for the Jews being from... Judea, but any cursory glance at Roman municipal documents confirm this. Jews are categorically unlike clubs one joins. Jews are actually a race, like asians, etc. In this case they are also a religious people. Semitic people encompass arabs as well. Indeed, they share the same family tree, besides the same procession of prophets, more or less.

Relevant to the discussion at hand one should ask, "Does Islam recognize the Jews and this land?"

Qur'an 17:104 : And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter (wa3’dul akhirati) cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.

Qur'an 59:2 : He it is Who caused those who disbelieved of the followers of the Book (Jews) to go forth from their homes (leave their exile) till the first gathering (Li awalil hashr) you did not think that they would go forth, while they were certain that their fortresses would defend them against Allah; but Allah came to them whence they did not expect, and cast terror into their hearts; they demolished their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers; therefore take a lesson, O you who have eyes!

Qur'an 17:4 : And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will experience corruption (exile) in the earth twice, but Ye will then after (thumma) ascend (ta’lunna) to a great height (or station).

I could go on. My point is, historical revision will have to work much harder to erase this history than is currently possible.

[arjunadawn]

This is the heart of such issues- how two inquiring minds can look at the same thing and walk away with differing impressions. In order for the value of such people to have weight it is inferred that it is related to the ongoing 'holocaust' in Gaza? Otherwise, it has no real gravity at all and it could just as easily have been a kibutz group writing the open letter. But it implies its moral authority because it suggests their vantage point (WWII survivors) can condemn gaza actions as similar, as they have seen. It is this predicate that I object to. The conclusion cannot be used as the basis for the argument as to their validity. I don't concur there is a genocide in gaza. It is circular, IMO.

Leaders take their moral authority from those they claim to represent.

Zionists claim to represent people like these

Ipso facto, these people do have moral authority

Q.E.D ;-)

Huh? I believe you just pointed out something important but I cant get it; really. Ah, I see. Assuming all Israelis are zionists, and they are confident in their actions being above board, this example of an exception (Authority evolves from morality of its people), proves there is an exception, therefore... they are lacking authority, or conversely, authority rests in the dissenters.

Hrmm, dont buy it. Good predicate. Fair conclusion. Just dont think the jump is made. Look, I see your point. I do. For someone who believes as you do it is a great aid to have such voices support your position. I just think the horrors taking place in gaza are caused by Hamas.

[Jingthing]

Anti-Zionists actively oppose the existence of Israel, the nation state homeland of the Jewish people. You can't really get more anti-Jewish people than that, mate.

Where does it say Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people? Before you refer me to God, please realize that we live by the laws of man, not of YOUR God.

I am not going down this dark hole with you.

But you have confirmed my perception, as an anti-Zionist, you don't accept that the state of Israel ever existed.

I ask you once again to show me where it is stated that Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people.

Can you do this, or will you simply hide in the dark hole of denial?

You're not "asking" me once again. You are troll baiting me. The nation of Israel shouldn't need to defend its existence any more than the USA, Thailand, or whatever country you are a native of.

So I'm not playing your game, so stop trying to harass me.

You know, the relentless hostility of the majority of self identified "anti-Zionists" does NOT fool me or most Jews in the world.

[arjunadawn]

I ask you once again to show me where it is stated that Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people.

Can you do this, or will you simply hide in the dark hole of denial?

This whole "Israel as a Jewish state" thing was a craftily calculated move by Netanyahu designed to derail talks on the two state solution. Netanyahu does not believe in the two state solution and does not want peace. On this there is no doubt.

Israel as a Jewish state was crafted by a current PM? Really? You realize we have access to history books? On the point of not wanting a two state solution, you may be correct.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, the political will for a two state solution is lacking on BOTH sides. Israel's majority seems to be OK with status quo (partly because of giving up on any hope of TRUSTING Palestinians with the power of a state) and a large portion of Palestinians (Hamas) want to win ALL of Israel, so won't accept a two state solution as anything more than a tactic to attack Israel later. I think most people can easily see how these TWO hard line positions are directly RELATED to each other. Trust between the sides ... just not enough of it.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Jingthing

[up-country_sinclair]

I ask you once again to show me where it is stated that Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people.

Can you do this, or will you simply hide in the dark hole of denial?

This whole "Israel as a Jewish state" thing was a craftily calculated move by Netanyahu designed to derail talks on the two state solution. Netanyahu does not believe in the two state solution and does not want peace. On this there is no doubt.

Israel as a Jewish state was crafted by a current PM? Really? You realize we have access to history books?

Yes, really.

During recent negotiations, Netanyahu suddenly declared that Israel must be recognized as a Jewish state. With peace within reach, he out of the blue made this demand knowing full well it would derail further negotiations.

You say you have access to history books. Do you have access to newspapers or the Internet?

[Jingthing]

I ask you once again to show me where it is stated that Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people.

Can you do this, or will you simply hide in the dark hole of denial?

This whole "Israel as a Jewish state" thing was a craftily calculated move by Netanyahu designed to derail talks on the two state solution. Netanyahu does not believe in the two state solution and does not want peace. On this there is no doubt.

Israel as a Jewish state was crafted by a current PM? Really? You realize we have access to history books?

Yes, really.

During recent negotiations, Netanyahu suddenly declared that Israel must be recognized as a Jewish state. With peace within reach, he out of the blue made this demand knowing full well it would derail further negotiations.

You say you have access to history books. Do you have access to newspapers or the Internet?

I hope you are joking.

I will post this again.

Please read it.

That should settle things about the history of Israel as a JEWISH state:

[up-country_sinclair]

As I posted earlier, this crafty plan by Netanyahu to suddenly demand that Israel be recognized as a Jewish state was designed for no other reason than to derail the peace talks.

There are many obstacles to the negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians. As if the issues of security, borders and natural resources were not already complicated, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has demanded that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state. For many, the demand is a non-starter, designed to derail the negotiations.

http://mepc.org/articles-commentary/commentary/netanyahu-and-jewish-state?print

Israel's New 'Jewish State' Threatens To Derail Peace Talks Palestinians Suggest Netanyahu Seeks To Avoid Signing Deal

http://forward.com/articles/193862/israels-new-jewish-state-threatens-to-derail-peace/?p=all#ixzz3BmE28VFv

[up-country_sinclair]

The Palestine Post. Hmmmm.

Who was/is behind the Palestine Post?

The Palestine Post An English-language daily established in Jerusalem in 1932 as part of a Zionist-Jewish initiative. In 1950 its name was changed to The Jerusalem Post and it continues to be published under that name to this day.

http://www.jpress.org.il/publications/ppost-en.asp

Edited August 29, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[Jingthing]

We probably agree Netanyahu doesn't really want a two state solution. He's a politician and he's reflecting his voters. On the other side ... big problems too, Gaza ruled by a Hamas that is transparently interested in winning ALL of Israel away from the Jews. WHY are most Israelis OK with a status quo and no real two state solution? Before the usual greedy Zionists / land grabber memes consider a more fundamental reason ... yes most Israelis are already comfortable enough with the status quo but also FEAR of being mass murdered based on actual evidence of Palestinian desire to do exactly that.

A powerful Palestinian state with intentions to win all of Jewish Israel could potentially do that. So if Israelis are afraid of that and want to prevent that, don't be too surprised or judgmental. Unless you think national suicide is an admirable trait. So Palestinian recognition of Israel's right to exist in words and actions is something that actually could move things forward ... easier said than done though of course.

But Netanyahu isn't Israel and Israel still IS a Jewish state. People on both sides shouldn't stop working for a two state solution because that's probably the best or even only hope. Being a supporter of Israel's right to exist and defend itself is not the same thing as supporting every Israeli government policy or politician.

Does the current conflict in Gaza just sort of put on hold move things closer to a two state solution? It doesn't appear so but some hope is being expressed that Israel now has more (though closeted) allies in the Arab world in opposition to terrorist Hamas, there might just be an opportunity from this.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Jingthing