Thai court dismisses murder charges against former PM Abhisit

[northernjohn]

So zero accountability for 100 plus deaths. Disgusting.

Red inflation is alive and well.

In total there were 91 deaths and at least a third of those were directly caused by bullets and grenades fired by the armed element of the red rioters.

For instance the army Colonel posthumously promoted to general whose wife is still trying to get his death investigated. She may have more luck now Tarit has gone.

Then there was the lady who was killed by the grenade attack on the sky train station.

The accountability must come from those who were leading what was in fact an armed rebellion attempting to oust a legal Government.

Had there been no shots fired or grenades thrown at the army there would have been no live fire retaliation.

If you attack an army with weapons of war you must expect retaliation in kind.

The red leaders had every chance to call off their riots and send their followers home when Abhisit agreed to their terms for an early election, his agreement was at first accepted and the red leaders agreed to call off the riots.

The next day that had changed and the agreement withdrawn, we can only speculate that the boss from overseas had vetoed the idea as he needed more blood.

Any deaths and injuries after that were the direct responsibility of the decision not to end the riots and must rest with those who made that decision.

It should be noted that one of the red leaders Veera walked out after the recanting of the decision to pack up and accept the terms offered, he could see what was coming and wanted no part of it.

The red leaders have all been charged with various offences up to and including terrorism and have left a huge trail of evidence against themselves.

Their day in court will come and that evidence will all be rehashed and should prove beyond all doubt where responsibility lies. Accountability will come.

Well said.

I find it hard to believe that any one with a grade 2 education can claim the red shirts did no wrong in 2010. People talk about the education here in Thailand but when I read posts like that I have to wonder about the education in other countries. Now I admit it might not all be a lack of education as Thaksin did have a lot of people on his payroll.

[khounteen]

The worms are now starting to come out of the woodwork. You can now see how "neutral" junta is.

[bangrak]

Oh, don't be ridiculous - 2000 armed redshirts?! Even the army spokesman, Col. Sansern Kaewkamnerd, said that "500 “terrorists” had infiltrated the protest area and that the military were armed with M16s and prepared to defend themselves" ( http://csis.org/publication/thailand-steps-unknown ) to justify using force on the UDD demonstrators, and that was BS enough.

When Fabby corroborates 500 by quoting it, I think we might go for it, so Fabby, who were those 500, who paid for them, who trained them, who lead them, who armed them, were they wearing black too? Tell us more, please, it's time the truth comes out, and as you know so much about that trash...!

I ignored your silly little analysis of one of my posts earlier but this is just plain stupid. How can you interpret a figure in a quote by an army spokesman that I stated was BS as being corroborated by me. If you must keep your baiting hatefest going, try somebody else.

Fabby, you are a master in the interpretation of selective quotes, and I am just modestly attempting to follow your lighting example, so there's really no reason for you to get rude with me, is it? Or should I refrain from using your own techniques about your masterly interventions?

Edited August 28, 2014 by bangrak

[rubl]

...

It should be noted that the NACC paved the way in 2009 by voting 6-3 that then prime minister Somchai Wongsawad and former deputy PM Chavalit Yongchaiyudh violated the Criminal Code’s Article 157 on dereliction of duty by ordering the dispersal of the yellow-shirt protesters. They then forwarded a report to the OAG to file an indictment with the SCCDHPP.

Wonder if they'll have the courage of their "convictions" in this case........................

Actually it wasn't about "ordering the dispersal" my dear fabs. Since you provide so many details it seems strange you replaced the quoted reason with your own interpretation.

"Wicha Mahakun, a commissioner of National Anti-Corruption Committee (NCCC), said ... Somchai and Chavalit would be charged with nonfeasance in violation of Article 157 of the Criminal Code."

http://antithaksin.wordpress.com/2009/09/08/oct-7-crackdown-somchai-chavalit-and-patcharawat-to-face-criminal-charges/

I must admit I had to look it up, but wiki has

"Nonfeasance is the failure to act where action is required - willfully or in neglect"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misfeasance

Somehow all your remarks till now suggest you do not doubt that Abhisit / Suthep acted, even willfully so

[whybother]

So zero accountability for 100 plus deaths. Disgusting.

Given that it wasn't 100 plus deaths, and some of those less than 100 deaths were at the hands of the armed protesters, how far do you think the accountability should be spread?

[bangrak]

The worms are now starting to come out of the woodwork. You can now see how "neutral" junta is.

It's teakwood from PTP/UDD people the 'junta' has been digging out, there are no worms nor termites in teakwood, you're not being 'neutral', just plain biased! Hope 'your guys' will have their day(s) in the Court(s) soon, oh, it might be 'neutral', but, I bet, again, you won't agree with the rulings...

[whybother]

Ok where's the evidence that Suthep ordered the shooting of the nurse?

I've seen the translation of the ROE and it isn't in there. In fact there aren't any orders to kill anyone only permission to shoot in certain circumstances of which hers wasn't one.

I've tried to find the ROE but I can't at the moment but I did find this.

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2011/01/30/expert-testimony-alleges-criminal-acts-by-thai-army-in-april-may-2010/

This seems to be evidence from one of Robert Amsterdam's experts that says the army weren't following orders.

You provided the link to the revised ROE (on the 18th April) that was issued by CRES with abhisits knowledge. If you read those revised ROE's you could see how those ROE's led to the deaths of several people - basically the gloves were taken off and were not seen to be a proportionate response to the perceived threat.

Modified rules of engagement that expanded the range of circumstances in which officials could use live fire were approved by CRES on 18 April 2010.

The document stated that the presence of armed elements within the demonstrators justified the broadening of circumstances in which officials could use force to protect “other people, official property, and private citizens under their guard” and to “allow the provision of medical assistance to the perpetrators according to human rights principles after officials have managed to bring the situation under control.”

Specifically, the regulations allowed officials to shoot anyone seen carrying weapons who disregarded a no trespassing order, posed any danger to others, or prepared to use the weapons against officials or the general public. As a last resort, even unarmed civilians could be shot with “shotguns and rifles” in cases where a large group of demonstrators advanced towards the officials, disregarding a no trespassing order, to the point of creating a dangerous situation.

Officials were also authorized to use live bullets against “suspects” who resisted arrest or refused to submit to a search.

Finally, the order approved the deployment of “marksmen,” or snipers, to elevated positions from which they were authorized to use live ammunition against armed persons mixed with crowds of “innocent people,” whom other officials were not allowed to target.

If the CRES was not ruled to be ordering a proportionate response to the threat (and authorising the use of snipers and live fire zones in a crackdown on a demonstration in an urban environment has got to be seen as a disproportionate response in my opinion) than the "amnesty" provided by the Emergency Decree at the time would be void thus allowing the prosecution of those officials that made up CRES. It should now be up to the NACC to bring these case to the Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions.

It should be noted that the NACC paved the way in 2009 by voting 6-3 that then prime minister Somchai Wongsawad and former deputy PM Chavalit Yongchaiyudh violated the Criminal Code’s Article 157 on dereliction of duty by ordering the dispersal of the yellow-shirt protesters. They then forwarded a report to the OAG to file an indictment with the SCCDHPP.

Wonder if they'll have the courage of their "convictions" in this case........................

Not a proportionate response to army personnel being blown up by grenades? How should one deal with protesters armed with military weapons?

[Trouble]

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Probably the correct decision given the circumstances at the time, however could the court not have mentioned it had no jurisdiction at a slightly earlier time in proceedings?

Abhisit and Suthep were charged as individuals, not as PM and deputy PM. The obvious reason for this is that finding a PM guilty of murder while doing his official duties could lead to unpleasant consequences for a former PM who ordered the Police to shoot-to-kill during the war on drugs.

Thaksin knew this and probably didn't expect any different verdict. The charges were brought against them just for show.

I am constantly amazed at the political and legal experts here on TV. Maybe they should be teaching Thai politics and the Thai legal system to Thai university students as they have such an expert opinion on the reasons for everything that happens in Thailand.

[fabianfred]

A good, true and just verdict.

More brown stuff from the end of a Buffalo.....

[Tokay]

I was expecting a 500 baht fine.

[Tokay]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Probably the correct decision given the circumstances at the time, however could the court not have mentioned it had no jurisdiction at a slightly earlier time in proceedings?

Abhisit and Suthep were charged as individuals, not as PM and deputy PM. The obvious reason for this is that finding a PM guilty of murder while doing his official duties could lead to unpleasant consequences for a former PM who ordered the Police to shoot-to-kill during the war on drugs.

Thaksin knew this and probably didn't expect any different verdict. The charges were brought against them just for show.

I am constantly amazed at the political and legal experts here on TV. Maybe they should be teaching Thai politics and the Thai legal system to Thai university students as they have such an expert opinion on the reasons for everything that happens in Thailand.

Knowing what I know of Thai teachers, half of the people on this board are probably just as qualified to teach as those who are actually teaching.

[fasteddie]

"surprise ruling"? you're 'aving a larf!

[martinhp]

The Thai elite have been killing their own people for years and getting away with it, why on Earth did folks think it was going to be any different this time around?

There has to be some sort of accountability from politicians and military for the deaths, regardless of the circumstances at the time. In any civilised society this is a bare minimum. In ruling they have no jurisdiction they are preventing the truth from being known.

No doubt they will attempt to yet again foist this objectionable upper class twit who's father supported the odious dictator Suchinda upon the poor Thai populace. It runs in the Vejjajiva family.

Dark days ahead indeed as we have seen the rural Thais still haven't forgotten Democrat bitter medicine policies from the late 90's, and the cycle looks to continually repeat itself in the future, as they will never accept a government they haven't chosen, hence the attempts to cheat the system by the junta.

In 2010 Thaksin told his red shirts to fight the army and that he was very near to Thailand and would come back to help them if the army would open fire on them. Remember those famous words?

Red shirt leader Jatuporn, natthawut etc have also told their supporters numerous times to fight the army. Even told them to burn down the city.

You don't mention them in your propaganda piece. Why not?

I think it's fair to say the army is out of place and soldiers are fighting numerous army's around the world for exactly same civilian matter is so I can not be resolved with tanks or m16

If done so it's a crime and sooner or later must be treated as a crime for al humanity where ever in the world it is happening and no fools neither you or others should know this

It's doesn't matter who is right or wrong only that the resolve legally

[ianf]

The Thai elite have been killing their own people for years and getting away with it, why on Earth did folks think it was going to be any different this time around?

There has to be some sort of accountability from politicians and military for the deaths, regardless of the circumstances at the time. In any civilised society this is a bare minimum. In ruling they have no jurisdiction they are preventing the truth from being known.

No doubt they will attempt to yet again foist this objectionable upper class twit who's father supported the odious dictator Suchinda upon the poor Thai populace. It runs in the Vejjajiva family.

Dark days ahead indeed as we have seen the rural Thais still haven't forgotten Democrat bitter medicine policies from the late 90's, and the cycle looks to continually repeat itself in the future, as they will never accept a government they haven't chosen, hence the attempts to cheat the system by the junta.

seems to bring back many old sayings

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones

If you want to play in the road do not complain if you get hit

yes some one has to take responsibility

but as many thais will tell you if Farlang where not there at the time it would not have happened

so is it not true if The Red shirts had not taken over the streets there would have been no deaths

Guess another saying is true

If you make your bed

you have to lie in it

My 5 bahts worth

And if that young nurse had not done what she was sworn to do i.e. Minister to the sick and wounded and to try to save lives. She would not have been mercylessly gunned down on the orders of Khun Suthep.

This is simply tp ridiculous for words. Do you really believe your own propaganda? Why would K Suthep order the killing of a nurse? And what evidence do you have? None, off course. This is just blind prejudice no doubt posted at the behest of others.

[scorecard]

From eric loh: "Does it matter whether there are evidence. The court dismiss the case due to technicality - wrong court. All the proof and evidence will go to the shredder. Court is a real joke. A serious case ruled out by technicality."

And you eric, as you frequently do, deliberately mislead.

The case was not thrown out or cancelled by a legal technicality.

The case was rejected by the court because the case had been presented to the wrong court.

There has been no report that the evidence has been shredded or ditched.

The agency which lodged the case did so in the wrong court - this brings up questions about the professionalism / capability / intentions / accuracy of the agency concerned.

Edited August 29, 2014 by scorecard

[aussieinthailand]

So let's get this strait ok, Mark is the leader of his government, Uncle Suthep Mark's deputy orders live round shootings, where many many people die

Any and all are fair game, as in nurses in helping the injured in a temple, International journalists, men women children, mai pen rai...

and anyone that you want cause any problem in the future is already handled, they're just stupid poor farmers, just northern rubbish!!!

Now the courts have said no'p no problem there, not responsible for anything, your free to go...

Now Yingluk's ministers lie cheat and steal, as well as the rice miller's and middle men, and she is left standing in a puddle of sh*t and doesn't have the shoes for it...

Yu'p nothing wrong with the legal system here hey guy's..........

and the fools that support this here on TV are just as one eyed and guilty as the mark and uncle Suthep.

[Artisi]

No comment.

You just made one

[ThailandNoob]

What's going on in Thailand now is much better than what we had pre-coup. No political protests, bombs or violence. And a few things cleaned up too.

And no one would dare say otherwise now would they? Or they would risk being "cleaned up" too (I'm apparently not allowed to say "dragged off the street and held incommunicado" anymore).

I take it you dislike George Orwell's book 1984 then? As well as The Hunger Games, Tropico 5 and eating sandwiches in public?

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ThailandNoob]

The Thai elite have been killing their own people for years and getting away with it, why on Earth did folks think it was going to be any different this time around?

There has to be some sort of accountability from politicians and military for the deaths, regardless of the circumstances at the time. In any civilised society this is a bare minimum. In ruling they have no jurisdiction they are preventing the truth from being known.

No doubt they will attempt to yet again foist this objectionable upper class twit who's father supported the odious dictator Suchinda upon the poor Thai populace. It runs in the Vejjajiva family.

Dark days ahead indeed as we have seen the rural Thais still haven't forgotten Democrat bitter medicine policies from the late 90's, and the cycle looks to continually repeat itself in the future, as they will never accept a government they haven't chosen, hence the attempts to cheat the system by the junta.

seems to bring back many old sayings

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones

If you want to play in the road do not complain if you get hit

yes some one has to take responsibility

but as many thais will tell you if Farlang where not there at the time it would not have happened

so is it not true if The Red shirts had not taken over the streets there would have been no deaths

Guess another saying is true

If you make your bed

you have to lie in it

My 5 bahts worth

And if that young nurse had not done what she was sworn to do i.e. Minister to the sick and wounded and to try to save lives. She would not have been mercylessly gunned down on the orders of Khun Suthep.

This is simply tp ridiculous for words. Do you really believe your own propaganda? Why would K Suthep order the killing of a nurse? And what evidence do you have? None, off course. This is just blind prejudice no doubt posted at the behest of others.

Who did order the killing then? Someone needs to be held responsible for the bloodbath. If it is not Suthep and Abhisit then maybe some military people need to go on trial.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ThailandNoob]

So zero accountability for 100 plus deaths. Disgusting.

Given that it wasn't 100 plus deaths, and some of those less than 100 deaths were at the hands of the armed protesters, how far do you think the accountability should be spread?

Two people in my friend's family never came back from Ratchaprasong. Neither of them were included in the "official" death toll.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Robby nz]

And if that young nurse had not done what she was sworn to do i.e. Minister to the sick and wounded and to try to save lives. She would not have been mercylessly gunned down on the orders of Khun Suthep.

This is simply tp ridiculous for words. Do you really believe your own propaganda? Why would K Suthep order the killing of a nurse? And what evidence do you have? None, off course. This is just blind prejudice no doubt posted at the behest of others.

Who did order the killing then? Someone needs to be held responsible for the bloodbath. If it is not Suthep and Abhisit then maybe some military people need to go on trial.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Indeed they do so tell us who ordered the riots started that led to the grenades being fired at the army killing army personnel, an attack which sparked the retaliation from the army.

Tell us who ordered the attack on the sky train station that killed one and injured others.

Tell us why the red leaders refused to pack up and leave after agreeing to do so, for it was that decision and those who made it that must be held responsible for all the deaths and injuries after that time.

There is no doubt about that for if they had gone as agreed there would have been no need to move them on by force.

Tell us who ordered the men in black to fire on the army.

Tell us who supplied the weapons to the red rioters and the funding to use them.

Once you have answered these questions then you will know who must be held responsible.

[whybother]

So zero accountability for 100 plus deaths. Disgusting.

Given that it wasn't 100 plus deaths, and some of those less than 100 deaths were at the hands of the armed protesters, how far do you think the accountability should be spread?

Two people in my friend's family never came back from Ratchaprasong. Neither of them were included in the "official" death toll.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Maybe because they aren't dead.

[whybother]

Who did order the killing then? Someone needs to be held responsible for the bloodbath. If it is not Suthep and Abhisit then maybe some military people need to go on trial.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Maybe no one "ordered the killing". The facts are that protesters were using war weapons against soldiers. Soldiers don't need orders to protect themselves.

[SureNDT]

The same old tired excuses and blame-shifting onto the mysterious men-in-black and red shirts.

Let's get some transparency from the politicians and the military for a change instead of letting political ideology and obsession with one man cloud our objectives.

[ThailandNoob]

And if that young nurse had not done what she was sworn to do i.e. Minister to the sick and wounded and to try to save lives. She would not have been mercylessly gunned down on the orders of Khun Suthep.

This is simply tp ridiculous for words. Do you really believe your own propaganda? Why would K Suthep order the killing of a nurse? And what evidence do you have? None, off course. This is just blind prejudice no doubt posted at the behest of others.

Who did order the killing then? Someone needs to be held responsible for the bloodbath. If it is not Suthep and Abhisit then maybe some military people need to go on trial.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Indeed they do so tell us who ordered the riots started that led to the grenades being fired at the army killing army personnel, an attack which sparked the retaliation from the army.

Tell us who ordered the attack on the sky train station that killed one and injured others.

Tell us why the red leaders refused to pack up and leave after agreeing to do so, for it was that decision and those who made it that must be held responsible for all the deaths and injuries after that time.

There is no doubt about that for if they had gone as agreed there would have been no need to move them on by force.

Tell us who ordered the men in black to fire on the army.

Tell us who supplied the weapons to the red rioters and the funding to use them.

Once you have answered these questions then you will know who must be held responsible.

Tell us who triggered the protests in the first place by Prime Minister without being elected, and then refusing to stand for election (even the previous Prime Minister of my home country, who I consider a reprehensible human being in many ways, had the decency to do this).

The reason the Reds didn't move out of Ratchaprasong was because they didn't believe Abhisit was sincere about his promise to hold elections. If he had shown them that he was serious about elections, then I have no doubt that the Reds would have dispersed.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ThailandNoob]

Who did order the killing then? Someone needs to be held responsible for the bloodbath. If it is not Suthep and Abhisit then maybe some military people need to go on trial.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Maybe no one "ordered the killing". The facts are that protesters were using war weapons against soldiers. Soldiers don't need orders to protect themselves.

Protect themselves from unarmed nurses?

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[whybother]

Who did order the killing then? Someone needs to be held responsible for the bloodbath. If it is not Suthep and Abhisit then maybe some military people need to go on trial.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Maybe no one "ordered the killing". The facts are that protesters were using war weapons against soldiers. Soldiers don't need orders to protect themselves.

Protect themselves from unarmed nurses?

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Are you suggesting that someone specifically ordered the nurse to be shot?

[whybother]

Tell us who triggered the protests in the first place by Prime Minister without being elected, and then refusing to stand for election (even the previous Prime Minister of my home country, who I consider a reprehensible human being in many ways, had the decency to do this).

The reason the Reds didn't move out of Ratchaprasong was because they didn't believe Abhisit was sincere about his promise to hold elections. If he had shown them that he was serious about elections, then I have no doubt that the Reds would have dispersed.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Maybe the protesters (and you) should learn how PMs are elected in Thailand. Abhisit was elected PM by a majority of MPs, the same way as Thaksin, Samak, Somchai and Yingluck.

Did PPP call an election when Samak was forced to step down? No. They went to parliament to elect a new PM.

Did Somchai call an election when he was elected PM? No. I didn't see the red shirts out protesting then.

Did PTP (who were effectively in government after Somchai and PPP was banned) call a general election to elect a new PM? No. They went to parliament to elect a PM. That's when Abhisit was elected by a majority of MPs.

[northernjohn]

When Fabby corroborates 500 by quoting it, I think we might go for it, so Fabby, who were those 500, who paid for them, who trained them, who lead them, who armed them, were they wearing black too? Tell us more, please, it's time the truth comes out, and as you know so much about that trash...!

I ignored your silly little analysis of one of my posts earlier but this is just plain stupid. How can you interpret a figure in a quote by an army spokesman that I stated was BS as being corroborated by me. If you must keep your baiting hatefest going, try somebody else.

Fabby, you are a master in the interpretation of selective quotes, and I am just modestly attempting to follow your lighting example, so there's really no reason for you to get rude with me, is it? Or should I refrain from using your own techniques about your masterly interventions?

interpretation of fabby statement

If you must keep your baiting hatefest going, try somebody else.

Enough who do you think you are to question me.

that pretty well covers it.

[jayboy]

Tell us who triggered the protests in the first place by Prime Minister without being elected, and then refusing to stand for election (even the previous Prime Minister of my home country, who I consider a reprehensible human being in many ways, had the decency to do this).

The reason the Reds didn't move out of Ratchaprasong was because they didn't believe Abhisit was sincere about his promise to hold elections. If he had shown them that he was serious about elections, then I have no doubt that the Reds would have dispersed.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Maybe the protesters (and you) should learn how PMs are elected in Thailand. Abhisit was elected PM by a majority of MPs, the same way as Thaksin, Samak, Somchai and Yingluck.

Did PPP call an election when Samak was forced to step down? No. They went to parliament to elect a new PM.

Did Somchai call an election when he was elected PM? No. I didn't see the red shirts out protesting then.

Did PTP (who were effectively in government after Somchai and PPP was banned) call a general election to elect a new PM? No. They went to parliament to elect a PM. That's when Abhisit was elected by a majority of MPs.

There is an important distinction between the elections of Thaksin, Yingluck on one hand and Abhisit,Samak,Somchai on the other.The former two won a mandate from the Thai people and the latter three did not.The latter certainly were legitimately elected PM by MPs but would have needed to refresh their mandate with the people at large.This is well understood by anyone who understands the parliamentary system of government.It would be pleasant if we could be spared yet more pious lectures on how the system works - which usually tend to omit important background.