Islamic State 'kills US hostage'

[Ulysses G.]

yet the Saud Wahaabist movement was nurtured by the US around 80-90 years ago.

Conspiracy theory stuff. Please supply a CREDIBLE source for this claim.

[Ulysses G.]

yet the Saud Wahaabist movement was nurtured by the US around 80-90 years ago.

Conspiracy theory stuff. Please supply a CREDIBLE source for this claim.

[Steely Dan]

Any death is tragic...well almost any (nobody grieves Bin Laden for example), however in a very real sense, this is simply collateral damage.

To quote from the article, "This second execution video from IS is significant, even though it was largely expected and dreaded. ". Expected and dreaded. In response to further airstrikes. The US could have prevented it in theory by stopping the airstrikes, but of course couldn't in reality because they have to do what they feel they have to do.

It's the same thing as civilians in Gaza being considered collateral damage because the IDF knew some will die but did what it felt it had to do regardless.

When the Brit gets executed, it will also be collateral damage, and I am so sorry for that.

Likewise multiculturalism was always going to cause collateral damage by allowing mass immigration from the most intolerant ideology on Earth.

[Mosha]

The west needs to reciprocate. USA has captain hook Abu Hamsa, the UK should go get that "John's" nearest and dearest. War is a nasty business and hog tying your troops with rules/laws when the other side don't care is stupid.

[Seastallion]

Preventable murder. If the US stopped the airstrikes, the man would have been saved, at least long enough for a rescue mission perhaps. The US did what it felt it had to do, knowing the poor chap would die. It's exactly the same as the IDF doing what it feels it has to do, knowing an innocent (or in their case many innocents) will die. The Gazan civilian (in your words non-combatants) deaths are labelled collateral damage....this chap is too.

Not clumsy at all.

Your support of so-called collateral damage when it is Muslims dying is beneath contempt.

The bizarre twists of logic that irrational demonizers of Israel are willing to indulge in boggle the mind!

If it were as easy as the US stopping the bombs on... what, ISIS? the journalist in this instance would have been saved? How preposterous. Even if we assume for a moment that was true, and policy changed to... appease terrorists, what would be left of the western world's ability to declare any defense of its people? (I know, their credibility is already serious damaged; I concede this point).

But more precisely (excluding the poster as an example) what of the man who looks upon this situation and declares "If we give them what they want, they'll go away." Will they go away? Will it end? Do we allow it to end with a massive terrorist proxy state consuming the world? Do we bury our head in our hands, close our eyes, and hope it will go away? Remember, the days of considering what is happening in the world in isolated enclaves has passed; we get it now. Our leaders remain reluctant, but we know now what is happening. They will not go away!

"Give [me] what I want and will go away" is an invitation to evil.

I don't think me being monosyllabic will help me here. Perhaps if you read again? Try to comprehend. In no way did I suggest the US should curtail airstrikes. I made it clear in both posts that the US did what it felt necessary...and knew that the jounalist would probably die as a result. Collateral damage.

Nobody is suggesting the US change policy to appease terrorists. Please, read more carefully, it's getting boring having to disabuse you or correct you.

.

The threat was :We'll behead him as we did Foley, unless you stop airstrikes"

It is pure speculation if they would have honoured the proposal or not.

[Seastallion]

I thought this was an anti American rant until I reached the word "infidel's" I don't want to generalize either, but if we had stayed out of their countries we wound't be having these problems. when you go around the world bombing people, you have to expect a little payback.

If it makes you feel better, we have killed a lot more terrorist's, rebels, enemy combatants, and civilians than they have killed infidels, so I guess we must be winning.

This is fallacious; not you but the argument. This underlying justification that because the US foreign policy these things are happening. You are not the first person to say this. Indeed, many terrorists will say this when making pronouncements to the west. However, and this is consistently the case, when terrorists make their justifications to other muslims for their acts they do not cite the same provocations. This hardly ever happens. Invariably, jihadists, when speaking about their actions choose to reinforce the rightness of their actions by citing Hadith, Sura, or other exegesis. Thus the paradoxical information- "Just listen to what the terrorists tell us are the reasons for their actions" and folks can walk away with a valid point of view, like yourself. But "Just listen to what the terrorists tell other muslims for the justification for their actions" and you will see an entirely different, highly developed and rationally ordered reason for this actions.

I spent my life serving the American government and reach a point where I am also disgusted. I am not opposing your point because of some inherent ethnocentrism; I see your point. It is just not right, or not complete, how about saying that? There really is more to what is going on. Most of the causes for our current Islamic expansion problem can be traced to two different things, that briefly converged in Afghanistan in the 80s: The Saudi Wahhabi supremacy virus that began spreading in earnest about 100 years ago, and the US aid to fighters in Afghan (to fight Russia, not usa). These events married ideology with arms for the first time in a transnational stage. The result was that the Islamists who now returned from madrases in that region of the world, and elsewhere, now had combat experience, and the will to deliver ideology at the point of the gun. With the collapse of the bipolar world of Russia/USA, the genie was fully out of the bottle.

Did USA make matters worse? Cause this or that? Maybe. Sure, the USA likely chose poor policies, but they most definitely did not create what you suggest. The same phenomena you say in the world today has been seen numerous times, in many lands, over 1500 years. History provides us numerous identical examples that nothing is new today. (And yes, that was clever the way you sideswiped the US; nice).

The fallacy lies within your post, not the one you accuse of being fallacious.

You mention the Saudi Wahaabi supremacy virus as an argument against johna's opinion (of American meddling being the/a root of today's problems) yet the Saud Wahaabist movement was nurtured by the US around 80-90 years ago. Without the US's support, it is arguable that Wahaabism would today be a word known only to historians, anthropologists and those that study minor cults.

That's your first fallacy.

You then go on to assert, as you are wont to do, this and that about Islam and Muslims, and Islamists as if your opinion is fact. Your preaching begs the question.

You also use contradictory language. "Consistently" and "invariably" do not agree with "hardly ever". Which is it, or is it neither?

You are also being disingenuous with your "Maybe (America made things worse). Your next sentence actually makes excuses for it, "..likely chose poor policies.." Ha, did they ever!?

If you are going to continue with preaching your "firm convictions", I suggest you should provide the proof or else declare that your beliefs are unsubstantiated.

Your eagerness to injure me causes you to nearly trip over yourself. Brother, you need to know something: I don't need to be right. I have no problem with being wrong. There are a lot of really smart people here on TV and I learn from a bunch of them. In fact, I learn more from the people who differ with me. Don't work so hard to repudiate my points. You can if you wish but your time could be better spent developing original thought.

I did not say USA was innocent. I concede they have had policies, and do, that contribute to the issues we face (I personally feel the USA and West are significantly responsible for this entire problem, but not in the way the poster thought). I felt it was important to distinguish the fact that jihadis say something different, in most cases, to other muslims regarding their actions. I did make this point. This is correct.

I just scanned the rest of your post and realize how ugly it is toward me. I cant imagine how my posts, fairly neutral to any individual, could move across time and space, reproduce on your keyboard, be scanned and processed in your mind, and generate such visceral emotional protest. How odd?

My firm convictions do not require a shred or proof. When I make assertions without stating my opinion and conviction, I usually do cite my sources if I feel it can contribute to a point I make. Often, if a topic is so easily perused on line I wont cite it as a reasonable man should accept a reasonable burden for his own education and inform-ation.

IMO, I am confident that the body of my posts, juxtaposed with yours, demonstrate a not nice approach from you in the view of my peers. I just think that; no citation needed. Therefore, I will continue to labor to humor you when I can, not respond when abusive, but otherwise minimize you to the status you request with your rage.

What is odd is your passive aggressiveness towards my clinical debating. When I pull apart your preaching, I am "eager to injure you". When I point out your fallacies, you nonchalantly, "I don't need to be right". You continue with insinuations.

Your firm convictions need some proof if you are to present them as facts. Other wise you should declare them as "firm convictions" (ie unsubstantiated).

Please read again...try to comprehend.

[toooa]

There is an effective substance that can deter these extremists, it is pork, and it will deny any Muslim extremist the paradise they seek after death.

Interested...? read on

I admit.

I was stupid enough to click on your link.

I assume the website is just another red neck tea party KKK nutters alias.

Because if I would assume that the website is really linked to the American army, I would have no choice as to join the jihad, for humanity's sake.

Amen.

Don't knock it before you've tried it....assume what ever you like. I just happened by that article and thought it might liven up the discussion. Do with it what you will.... You'd have to at least entertain the idea that anyone willing to do some of the nuttier things done by IS, including suicide bombing might be pretty heavily swayed by religious arguments. Sure, we know its BS, but I reckon there's a chance that some of these people actually believe they are on God's holy orders.

And as you said, you clicked on it. Who's fault's that?

[Jingthing]

Adding another twist, Sotloff the murder victim of these radical Islamist terrorists held Israeli citizenship.

[I Like Thai]

Maybe its time to send these muslims back to their countries of origin, As most have not assimilated , why should so many suffer to please so few.

Would you say the same about the Farangs who haven't assimilated in Thailand

I must assume you are unfamiliar with the details of the muslims (generally) to which he refers (behavior as newly assimilated peoples in numerous countries). Perhaps the topic of the OP attracted you because it such an ugly thing that happened and you wanted to read some others' thoughts, or comment like everyone else. I hope in the time since you posted this and now you have come to understand the difference between foreigners visiting a country, remaining as visitors (guests) only, following the (opposed to assigning themselves special laws, or breaking host nation laws outright) laws, not demanding special concessions (opposed to sharia, halal, etc.) and rights, and minding their own political business; this is hardly the same as the vast islands of Islamic separatism widely disseminated throughout the western world as no-go areas for non muslims. These areas are actually increasingly becoming forward operating bases for hija jihad- migration jihad!

I hope others have pointed out to you that farang have no collective will to kill the population of any country they "visit" (hija) nor do they have a proscribed agenda/format for carrying out such a calculated pogrom (koran, hadith, jihad). In fact, taking your observation globally I cannot find a single example that can be made in line with your post. There simply is no comparison with any single group of people and those hello-bent on world domination and the annihilation of all that has been produced in the entire western world.

Farangs have been murdering the populations of the countries they visit for thousands of years and are still doing it today. That is why there is so much strife between the peoples of the East and of the West today. The populace of the West were quite happy to bury their heads in the sand in relation to what their Governments and vested Interests were and are doing in countries far away. As long as it didn't impact them, they didn't care what happened. Now that some retribution is being exacted on western areas, the populace are starting to wake up and cry foul.

[Steely Dan]

Now here's the walking face palm John Kerry repeating the old religion of peace baloney. Perhaps he would care to quote Islamic scripture that refutes that which ISIS use.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/09/03/kerry-the-real-face-of-islam-is-a-peaceful-religion-video/

[joecoolfrog]

Not long ago Iran was the bogey man , now the west are trying to get the Shia onside against the Sunni Islamists. Orwells 1984 is getting more and more prophetic.

[Ulysses G.]

All radical Islam are "the bogeyman" and the threat is growing. Distorting the truth does not change it.

[canman]

I feel sorry for people like you who swallow up every piece of mainstream media!

It's not a black and white thing, dude.

There is a wide range between believing everything in mainstream media and uncritically embracing every idiotic and insane conspiracy theory they see on the internet (an infinite source of such GARBAGE).

Spare your fake sympathy. Please.

I'm not embracing any "idiotic" conspiracy theory. All I said was these videos are nothing like any other (by ISIS) and the family's response is not normal!

Am I not allowed to ask these pertinent questions without the standard tin foil reply?

I have not yet read the posts that follow this above post but I do wish to comment having just finished watching this video multiple times. First, I previously had gut reactions to the Foley video that I could not explain. I mean, I have seen horrible beheading videos multiple times and have seen beheadings multiple times (not the act, just the results). Something did not seem correct about the Foley video. I was prompted to recall a favorite and brilliant author, Malcolm Gladwell. Gladwell's book "Blink" really is a must read for understanding that innate part of us that informs us something is just not quite right, even though we cannot articulate exactly what it is. After rationalizing and going back and forth I concluded the Foley video was legitimate and the reason they paused at the most important part was because of stupidity, and bungling. Because of his bald head (I feel dirty even describing this) they could not maintain an anchor and releasing the full clip would show stupidity. I could not understand why jihadists would have shaved their heads in the first place.

Now this video is released with the same slick packaging and Seal of muhammad. They are clearly allowing hair to grow back, but still cutting away at the defining part of the act. The fact is the singular goal of terrorists is to terrorize a population in order to extract concessions, force the population to lose faith in their governments ability to protect them, and muster esprit de corps amongst themselves. Why do they continue to sterilize the product? It is a valid question and asking it does not indicate ignorance or sympathy for anything.

And both of you guys above are correct, IMO. It is not black and white and yes, many people do simply fall in line to read only tin foil hat outlets, or corporate media mouthspeak. Yes, its harder to be discerning these days. Since I have the sense that both of you are on the same team, I prefer you remain that way. There are many people to educate about this and you have lots of stuff to share.

Why do they continue to sterilize the product? It is a valid question and asking it does not indicate ignorance or sympathy for anything.

My take on this is they wanted the video shown and watched by as many people as possible. If they had shown the beheading in full, I suspect that there would have been a social media and MSM outcry and the video would have been taken down on all the mainstream sites there by limiting the impact and purpose of the video. This was a professional production using professional equipment and slick editing, it was intended and marketed to as wide an audience as possible.

These people may be savages but never make the mistake of thinking they are stupid.

[Plutojames88]

This interview is telling.

The ex CNN reporter who has been captured 3 times gives a very dire assessment of this situation.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-03/just-who-is-behind-the-islamic-state/5717582

[Soutpeel]

The west needs to reciprocate. USA has captain hook Abu Hamsa, the UK should go get that "John's" nearest and dearest. War is a nasty business and hog tying your troops with rules/laws when the other side don't care is stupid.

Funny you mention this, reading an article this morning and Lord West (Ex-head of the Royal Navy) is quoted saying Jihadi "John" is a "dead man walking"

so one only hopes David Cameron has the balls Maggie Thatcher had during Iranian Embassy siege and Falklands to take decisive action instead of just talking, but alas I fear Cameron doesnt have the stomach or the balls to go it alone....

[Soutpeel]

The west needs to reciprocate. USA has captain hook Abu Hamsa, the UK should go get that "John's" nearest and dearest. War is a nasty business and hog tying your troops with rules/laws when the other side don't care is stupid.

Funny you mention this, reading an article this morning and Lord West (Ex-head of the Royal Navy) is quoted saying Jihadi "John" is a "dead man walking"

so one only hopes David Cameron has the balls Maggie Thatcher had during Iranian Embassy siege and Falklands to take decisive action instead of just talking, but alas I fear Cameron doesnt have the stomach or the balls to go it alone....

If Cameron is serious he should revoke the citizenship of any british citizen who has been fighting in any Jihadist wars.

...but like being said before...balls are lacking and the liberals will raise a stink as usual.

the bleeding heart liberals have already started to squeal about the revoking of passports and citizenship in the UK because its a "human rights" violation, so it seems revoking a passport is a human rights violation, but cutting innocent peoples heads off with a knife is not a human right violation in their eyes...

Maybe the bleeding hearts liberals need to get on a plane to Syria or Iraq and go an preach human rights there...

[arjunadawn]

Maybe its time to send these muslims back to their countries of origin, As most have not assimilated , why should so many suffer to please so few.

Would you say the same about the Farangs who haven't assimilated in Thailand

I must assume you are unfamiliar with the details of the muslims (generally) to which he refers (behavior as newly assimilated peoples in numerous countries). Perhaps the topic of the OP attracted you because it such an ugly thing that happened and you wanted to read some others' thoughts, or comment like everyone else. I hope in the time since you posted this and now you have come to understand the difference between foreigners visiting a country, remaining as visitors (guests) only, following the (opposed to assigning themselves special laws, or breaking host nation laws outright) laws, not demanding special concessions (opposed to sharia, halal, etc.) and rights, and minding their own political business; this is hardly the same as the vast islands of Islamic separatism widely disseminated throughout the western world as no-go areas for non muslims. These areas are actually increasingly becoming forward operating bases for hija jihad- migration jihad!

I hope others have pointed out to you that farang have no collective will to kill the population of any country they "visit" (hija) nor do they have a proscribed agenda/format for carrying out such a calculated pogrom (koran, hadith, jihad). In fact, taking your observation globally I cannot find a single example that can be made in line with your post. There simply is no comparison with any single group of people and those hello-bent on world domination and the annihilation of all that has been produced in the entire western world.

Farangs have been murdering the populations of the countries they visit for thousands of years and are still doing it today. That is why there is so much strife between the peoples of the East and of the West today. The populace of the West were quite happy to bury their heads in the sand in relation to what their Governments and vested Interests were and are doing in countries far away. As long as it didn't impact them, they didn't care what happened. Now that some retribution is being exacted on western areas, the populace are starting to wake up and cry foul.

IS and others would be proud to hear you trumpet the excuses that are hardly their real pretext. Bravo! Yet you specifically said Thailand. It's absurd to consider westerners in Thailand analogous London preachers of hate or French Muslim no go areas.

You have a point in what you say but it's lost in self race loathing and false association with the OP. Westerners in Thailand is a treacherous over reach and nearly outrageous.

Edited September 4, 2014 by arjunadawn

[I Like Thai]

Not so long ago there was an overwhelming outcry from the British public demanding that their forces not be sent on foreign campaigns again. This demand came to fruition when the British politicians said they would not be sending any forces to Syria, due to them having lost the trust of the British public due to the exposed lies in previous conflicts.

Right now the sheep are being brought into line again in order to garner support to go and fight the evilest evil of all time.

IS using weapons belonging to the US are the new evilest of evil groups to have ever existed.

All I can hear is sheep bleating all over this topic.

[simple1]

Not so long ago there was an overwhelming outcry from the British public demanding that their forces not be sent on foreign campaigns again. This demand came to fruition when the British politicians said they would not be sending any forces to Syria, due to them having lost the trust of the British public due to the exposed lies in previous conflicts.

Right now the sheep are being brought into line again in order to garner support to go and fight the evilest evil of all time.

IS using weapons belonging to the US are the new evilest of evil groups to have ever existed.

All I can hear is sheep bleating all over this topic.

It is well documented that US & UK governments made significant strategic & tactical errors with the wars & policies in Iraq & Afghanistan. In addition with the response to Assad's brutal suppression of the Arab Spring with zero meaningful support for FSA (prior to the strengthening of Islamic extremist forces), in hindsight was a strategic error.

I do not believe anyone would be of the opinion that our governments are lying / misinforming the public over the current situation with Islamic State in Syria, Iraq and the presence of foreign fighters. The question is without ground forces, do people really believe that Islamic State and it's ideological supporters can mainly be eradicated.

I have not heard how the West, Arab & Iranian dictatorships propose to address the influence of Wahabi and Shiite fundamentalists, without which their will yet again be an explosion of violence somewhere else in the region.

Edited September 4, 2014 by simple1

[MJP]

The west needs to reciprocate. USA has captain hook Abu Hamsa, the UK should go get that "John's" nearest and dearest. War is a nasty business and hog tying your troops with rules/laws when the other side don't care is stupid.

Funny you mention this, reading an article this morning and Lord West (Ex-head of the Royal Navy) is quoted saying Jihadi "John" is a "dead man walking"

so one only hopes David Cameron has the balls Maggie Thatcher had during Iranian Embassy siege and Falklands to take decisive action instead of just talking, but alas I fear Cameron doesnt have the stomach or the balls to go it alone....

If Cameron is serious he should revoke the citizenship of any british citizen who has been fighting in any Jihadist wars.

...but like being said before...balls are lacking and the liberals will raise a stink as usual.

I agree, citizenship should be revoked for immigrants,....but what do you do with born citizens? Also, you would need to define "jihadist war". For example Gazan freedom fighters should not be classed as jihadis just as South Thailand separatists should not be classed jihadis. It would be all too easy for some to think any Muslim fighting is a jihadi, which is not true.

You could extradite them to terrible places like Bradford or Leices . . . oh no wait.

[Scott]

Off-topic post deleted.

[Mosha]

The Kurds may be onto something. Send women to fight them. IS don't like being killed by women

[Fat Haggis]

I like Thai, you do realise that the IS are in fact killing Muslims by the thousands too? They executed over 3,000 Iraqi Soldiers, with more mass graves being found, they have beheaded women and children in the hundreds, there's nothing muc to do with "farangs" as you put it.. this is one branch of Islam trying to enforce their salafist and wahabi ideology and sharia law onto other peace loving Muslims, who DONT want that.

[I Like Thai]

I like Thai, you do realise that the IS are in fact killing Muslims by the thousands too? They executed over 3,000 Iraqi Soldiers, with more mass graves being found, they have beheaded women and children in the hundreds, there's nothing muc to do with "farangs" as you put it.. this is one branch of Islam trying to enforce their salafist and wahabi ideology and sharia law onto other peace loving Muslims, who DONT want that.

Are you so deluded to think that the West can go in there on their white horse and sort all the problems out ?

[MJP]

I like Thai, you do realise that the IS are in fact killing Muslims by the thousands too? They executed over 3,000 Iraqi Soldiers, with more mass graves being found, they have beheaded women and children in the hundreds, there's nothing muc to do with "farangs" as you put it.. this is one branch of Islam trying to enforce their salafist and wahabi ideology and sharia law onto other peace loving Muslims, who DONT want that.

Are you so deluded to think that the West can go in there on their white horse and sort all the problems out ?

You make a valid point. What's that ridiculous phase that irritates the hell out of me, ummmm 'cake walk'. Well it won't be.

But how to fix this?

[H1w4yR1da]

Maybe its time to send these muslims back to their countries of origin, As most have not assimilated , why should so many suffer to please so few.

Would you say the same about the Farangs who haven't assimilated in Thailand

Mostly, Thai culture doesn't allow westerners too assimilate so that's a non-starter. Also, they don't go around cutting people's heads off.

FAIL!

[H1w4yR1da]

I wonder whether Obama or Putin would do a better job on IS.