"Face" need to earn some before you have any to lose?

[nidieunimaitre]

In my opinion, when a person makes a mistake (a real mistake, or on purpose), he does not like to be embarrassed for it in public.

Not by a boss, not by an equal, not by an inferior (sorry for that word, I am not a native English speaker).

That is universal, and could be called "face".

In Thailand however there is a complication:

A person in power thinks he is always right.

"Power" in the most broad or even ridiculous sense of the word.

Including policemen, teachers, parents, cashiers, workers, bureaucrats,.....

Same like Europe before - but in the sixties we put an end to that (some very old farts are still angry about it, unfortunately forum rules prevent me from naming those posters).

[focus27]

Face is something that we from the Western culture have a hard time to understand.

I lived for 2 years in China before coming to Thailand 27 months ago and Thai face is there but nowhere as obvious as it is in China.

I define it this way:

We start out in life with 0 respect and we have to achieve or earn respect with the deeds we do and the things we accomplish. Even if we lose some respect along the way we can pick ourselves up and dust ourselves down and get on with life. And mostly no one blinks an eyelid or raises a brow. And basically we don't care what people think.

Now face is different - they start with 100% face and do everything in their lives to keep it there! Hence the term "lose face" - I've seen the Chinese rob, lie, scam and cheat to maintain face and its a very serious thing. They buy BMWs fully loaded, the biggest houses and send their children to expensive schools to maintain the level of face that is expected of them. A good example is this: an American youth buys an Armani T-shirt in the sale and saves $100 but the Chinese student buys the same T-shirt at the same discount but tells all he paid top dollar whereas we would be happy to say we got a bargain. Face is part of the family, and each member adds to that face as does each family add face to the village. My Chinese wife was always telling me I lost her face when we would be out shopping and I would have no idea what I did and she would not explain it to me either. If Asians lose face it can be a life changing event for them and haunt them for years to come.

I know some of that sounds like western culture/society but whereas we may compete with each other to earn respect and keep up with the "Joneses" - face goes back thousands of years and is deeply ingrained in their culture. The point about someone pointing out a loss of face doesn't earn that person any new face - it just gives them a feeling of smugness that they have brought to the attention to all a loss of face and reasons for gossip. Asians worry constantly about how they are seen by others more so than us.

In the end it is another thing we have to adapt to.

Thank you. When I tell my relatives about life in Thailand I just tell them to imagine Sicily. Your description comes dangerously close to the omerta' of the various mafias in Italy. For all those people who buy into the unique Thais-saving-face propaganda, would be interesting to hear from a Sicilian. Doesn't have to be 'involved' but I've been there and even the average person's life needs to take account of the enveloping culture to avoid unwanted confrontations.

I think there is a problem with those who somehow equate freedom speech with freedom to insult, even if in jest. Most of the world doesn't get it! Indeed, it brings to mind a highly intelligent American visiting scholar at my university - we had to teach him about sarcasm and how to use it just so that he stopped getting offended at things that were not meant to be. Honestly.

[Berkshire]

I think you have a point. I'm not sure why Farangs in Thailand get so confused about this because it does occur all the time in the west. Causing someone to "lose face" is the same as "publicly humiliating" someone. No one wants that. Farangs in Thailand seem to say--if farangs engage in face-saving, it's ok. If Thais do it, it's not. I see face-saving on this forum all the time. Farangs on TV rarely come back and admit that they're wrong about anything. Afraid to lose face? Who knows.

Perhaps the difference between Thais and farangs is that Thais will generally refrain from intentionally causing someone else to lose face, whereas farangs have no qualms about that. But in terms of not wanting to lose one's own "face?" Same same between Thais and farangs.

wrong, we dont go and beat up the mans wife, daughter , mother and young kids where as thais do, they are too gutless to fight the person that has caused their loss of face so they then either get a heap of friends to help beat the crap out of him, get a weapon and kill him or attack his family. They are basically pathetic and lack any common sense, ie, they have no balls at all.

No, you're wrong. I see it in the west all the time. In America, some working class (or even upper class) guy gets abused at work, is powerless to do anything about it, so he goes home and beats up the wife and kids. It's called domestic violence and it happens a lot. I'm not saying it's right. But it happens, in the west and in Thailand. Don't even try to dispute that.

[biggles45]

" This means that Thais will rarely confront even when you have offended them."

I had a good laugh at this one. You should tell that to the American cyclist who was angry at the Thai man who knocked him off his bike and was then stabbed with a butchers knife. Every week there are violent attacks here that can be put down to a perceived loss of face by locals, almost always male.

[sdanielmcev]

It's no different than in any other country or culture. Call it what you will; face respect, honor.... You don't earn it, you don't get it.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOUqQt3Kg0

[KhnomKhnom]

Typist says............. ", but, where I come from constructive criticism is considered a tool used to build a better life with fewer errors." Well, son, you come from the wrong place to live in comfort in Thailand. Thailand culture does not at all work that way. You will never change it to "where you come from." Your very effort to change it is an insult to Thai culture, and you just LOST FACE by writing that.

[Thongkorn]

This face crap is a phalicy, first you have to learn to take responsibility for your own Actions ,

[TuskegeeBen]

Not sure if you are really serious about this ....but I find your post amusing, if for nothing else from the perspective of trying to understand Thai's and Thai culture....Ain't going happen and if you ever get to the point, that "ahhhh" moment, where you "THINK" you understand ....understand this ...your being delusional.

All that aside found an interesting site which says about "face"

Face

The concept of "Face" is most important in Thai culture. Keeping one's "Face" is equivalent to keeping one's self-respect and dignity intact. Thais will go great lengths to ensure that, as much as possible, neither you nor they will lose "Face". In fact, almost anywhere you go in Asia, you will find this concept important. This means that Thais will rarely confront even when you have offended them. Therefore, confrontation must be done with great care to avoid shaming a Thai friend. It is best to ask a "farang" who has lived in Thailand for several years for advice if you feel confrontation is necessary.

http://www.ywamthai.org/office/culture

Good luck on your quest ...its one of those neverending ones!

No it is the same as everywhere, just a bit stronger and the stiles are different. A Thai boss tells his staff that they are idiots and did everything wrong and doesn't care about face....worse than in Europe.

In private you don't tell someone is wrong if you can tell it in a better way. Same as in Europe.

Your last line .....is not correct. People everywhere, in general, not like to confront each other on trivial issues but about serious matters people in the West are way more inclined to tell the truth, thus confront and give an uneasy feeling to the recipient, than in Thai culture. Add to this the explanation of WHY they hold a certain opinion regarding the recipient makes the difference. Confrontation is more perceived in the West as being helpfull and caring about the other. Maturity ?

Exactly! Cultural "maturity" or (in the case of most Asian mentalities) the lack of it, are the operative words for defining "saving face".But, where is the face-saving for an person who blatantly lies to you; cheats you of your money; over-charges you, only because you are a "foreigner"; then becomes extremely hostile and prone to (conjuring a gang-support-group) become violence against yu (farang), and only because you simply asked them the question, "why did you (a person born, and raised in the Buddhist faith) do thatbad thing to me?"

People who have real Face (defined) are ethical in their business practices; are honorable (keep their given word, and respect the value that a "hand-shake is an unwritten contract"; have a "sense" of accountability, and will take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

Buddhism teaches all of these principles of behavior, and has become an integral-part of all Asian cultures, including those Asian cultures where Islam is the predominant religion. The Holy Koran teaches the exact same principles .

Thus, if these principles (after 2558 years of cultural developmental history) are strictly observed, then there is no possibility for a "loss of face", to begin with.

The one, and only Asian culture (my personal observation), where these characteristic traits are strictly, and predominately instilled from birth, and are outstanding traits among the general population, is Japan

[TuskegeeBen]

What it basically means is that you should do nothing to embarrass a Thai person- especially if you don't know them very well. That's what "face" basically means in Thailand.

They have no real faces to lose. Face implies possessing a standard level of personal dignity, honor, and self-respect..You can't lose something you've never had to begin with. The Theravada based notion of having face is arrogant, prideful, jealous of others, deceitful in character, and prone to throwing temper tantrums, when one doesn't get exactly what they want. Go to Japan, also a predominately Buddhist culture. Note the behavioral differences, particularly between the menfolk, and how they regard their women folk. .

[misterphil]

Your not Thai, so you'll never lose face.

All this face <deleted> is bullshit. My wife once told me that she lost her face because she asked a question at a mobile phone counter. The question was something like this.....

Q. Can I put my AIS mobile phone number on a monthly contract instead of a pay as I go?

A. No you cant because you have AIS 3G and you need to have AIS 3G 12Call.

So you want to learn about face? Work that one out?

[MJP]

You need to be completely off your face.

[Cuppa]

I wonder how much of the issue is simply part of the cultural divide which makes it difficult for many Farang to read the subtle cues that they are stepping over boundaries until it’s too late?

[farang000999]

Face is just a form of narcissism. It is placing a greater importance on image/identity over reality because the individual is insecure and has low confidence.

[benalibina]

Face is just a form of narcissism. It is placing a greater importance on image/identity over reality because the individual is insecure and has low confidence.

Nuff said.

[kannot]

face is more of an ego thing, its how big you think your d*ck is, how important you think you are, how good you think you are, how much better than others you think you are etc etc. In reality its all bullsh*t, respect is more important and that is earned, something a lot here are not capable of.

Ive found the problem has been no one has ever told some Thais there work is well below par so they assume their work is good................it then comes a s quite a shock when Mr nasty Frang tells them its well below par, sometimes very far below.

I once got my Wife to tell our ceiling installer his work was not good in a "Thai way".........his response to walk off site, his last words were "my work is good". We never saw him again and to be honest, good riddance

You want to see the photos of his neat plasterboard jointing??? if he had used a knife and fork to cut it it would have looked better.

Ok youll all say crap.... so heres the photos anyway, missed screws, joints cut with a spade, and way too many joints, some ceilings were like crazy paving, I redid them all myself in the end

[kamahele]

Face basically allows someone to never have to apologize or accept responsibility for their negative actions. The richer you are, the more you are allowed to get away with apparently.

[willyumiii]

Typist says............. ", but, where I come from constructive criticism is considered a tool used to build a better life with fewer errors." Well, son, you come from the wrong place to live in comfort in Thailand. Thailand culture does not at all work that way. You will never change it to "where you come from." Your very effort to change it is an insult to Thai culture, and you just LOST FACE by writing that.

EXCUSE ME??

No where in my post ( I am the OP) did I state or even insinuate that I had any want or need to change anything!

Where did you get that Idea?

I do not want Thailand to be like "where I come from".

Where did you get that idea?

I have not insulted Thailand in the least.

Where did you get that idea?

This post is an effort to gain a better understanding of the Thai culture than I have achieved in my previous thirteen years here..

It shows respect for the Thai culture.

How can you say I have lost face by posting this respectful inquiry?

Most replies to this question have been interesting and informative...except yours!

Tell me again how you think I have lost face here....

Now, please, read my initial post and your reply again.

Thanks to all who have posted worthwhile replies.

Edited September 4, 2014 by willyumiii

[sae57]

Glad this has got an airing. Lots of good comments here & I'm tired of TVers who know that "face" means reputation think that they know all about Thai culture.

"Face" just means that, reputation, good name. I think most people in any culture are concerned with preserving their good name, with not loosing their reputation, with looking good rather than bad. & polite people everywhere try to avoid unnecessarily hurting other people's feelings. Etc. etc. Far too much is made by the westies here of the face thing.

--S

Edited September 4, 2014 by sae57

[hellohello123]

This is a quote from a thai person I heard recently of three examples, and its highly contradictory in my eyes,

1. man orders a drink at bar, receives it, tastes it, its the wrong one, he tells teh waitress politely, she gets him a new one,

bill comes, and he has been charged for two drinks, he questions it, and her excuse is "well I cant sell that drink to anybody else, so you pay for it"

man gets extremely annoyed and agro, apparently, by losing his temper, he loses face and had he not got so agro, might have got the result he wanted

2. Staff member screws up in job in some way, Manager tells her off politely and without agro in front of people, she loses face, and then decides to quit

3. Farang is out on date with his thai gf/wife, a couple of guys are pointing and sniggering at her for whatever reason, he doesnt like it, so the move tables, they follow and one of them wants to shake his hand when he goes to the toilet, he refuses to, the come over and want to pick a fight because he lost face in front of his friends

If the above are true accounts of what face is all about, its complete BS

[arunsakda]

After one of these fatal incidents at a bar or where ever the Thai assailant was quoted by the news to say in effect (and I paraphrase)

"A man can be jailed but a man can NEVER be insulted".

On the other hand I would accept any insult if I could avoid being jailed and would NEVER resort to force except the minimum self-defence

required to extricate myself from the situation.

[A1Str8]

The concept of face is very simple. If external things can take away your self respect and dignity, then you have never had any so shouldn't worry much about losing it.

It's hard to lose something that you don't have. Get it? Got it? Good.

Edited September 4, 2014 by A1Str8

[hiller]

Losing face is the same as being made to look stupid, or foolish.

It is the same as being embarrassed in front of other people so they are judging you on your actions.

Conversely, you can earn face by being congratulated in front of other people.

It's all about what other people think of you. You would lose face if you arrived driving an old rusty car, if everyone else arrived in a Mercedes, but you might then gain face when they see your expensive watch and your wife has a better handbag than the other wives....

I've lived my entire life in Asia (Hong Kong and Thailand) and I think very much like an Asian. Face is very important to me.

I have found that FACE only comes in play in Thailand when they are caught lying, stealing, cheating.

[sae57]

After one of these fatal incidents at a bar or where ever the Thai assailant was quoted by the news to say in effect (and I paraphrase)

"A man can be jailed but a man can NEVER be insulted".

On the other hand I would accept any insult if I could avoid being jailed and would NEVER resort to force except the minimum self-defence

required to extricate myself from the situation.

Me too. Most Thais too. And westies sometimes do these kinds of stupid things.

These incidents are very rare (yet far too common!) and have more to do with alcohol and machismo than face. Many young men are just looking for a fight...

Where I live the young men from neighboring villages get into drunken brawls (you pissed in front of one of our elder's house! You danced in front of our stage!) sometimes fatal. In Bangkok, vocational school rivalry. Makes me recall my high school days in Des Moines, Iowa, USA (1960s). After a football game there was always a second sporting event--a "rumble" chains, knives and zip guns between the boys of the respective schools. Sometimes fatal.

[arunsakda]

I think FB is the "tool of the devil" but this is a good one..

Edited September 4, 2014 by arunsakda

[THssii]

Even in Europe this would cause loss of face and would affect youre relationship the one you are causing it. Lets say you start in new workplace and some senior worker would teach you, but you see that he teaches you wrong way. So if you told him that thats not true, then he would loose face, especially if there are other people around. But to keep good relationship, you either dont say anything or you hint him by saying that before you've been doing it alternative way. For many werstern people (maybe all people) its very important to be right, and only few can admit if they have been wrong, but why should you even point out someone mistakes, if these mistakes arent causing any problems? Or if you must, then you can always point these out by politely hinting, like in my example.

Not sure if this is the concept of the Face, but just my two cents.

Edited September 27, 2014 by THssii

[Thongkorn]

Sorry but loss of face is a mith, Owning up to ones mistakes and taking responsibility for your own actions comes to mind.

[seajae]

the answer to losing face is to learn to either flip the bird at the person doing it or tell them to go <deleted> themselves or both. Would stop a lot of the bullshit as this is what usually happens in farang land when some one pisses someone else off. Quick and to the point, no need for violence just a big smile while you do it then walk away

[geronimo]

"Face" as I see it, is how someone perceives they are perceived by others.