Wondering About This Logic

[qualtrough]

I was just reading another topic and saw that one poster wrote the following:

"I do not want to risk owning or driving a car in SE asia. I learned about a few folks waiting for their house to sell overseas to get the funds to pay for an accident."

I do not mean to pick on this particular poster, but this sentiment reminded me that I have read similar comments more than a few times on the forum.

Now I can certainly understand someone not wanting to own a car here because they find the public transportation adequate, or because they just don't want the hassle of coping with driving here, or because they think it is a needless expense. What I don't understand is people who think that they will be safer handing the driving over to someone else here (unless they are truly poor drivers).

Seems to me they either have a very low opinion of their own driving skills, or a unjustified confidence in the driving skills of the various taxi, bus, tuk tuk, and motorcycle taxi drivers they will be depending on. I am not saying that all public transport drivers are unsafe, but anyone who has spent any time here travelling will know that there are a fair amount who are, whether it be because they drink, take drugs, drive when exhausted, are reckless, or a combination of all those behaviors.

Edited July 12, 2006 by qualtrough

[meadish_sweetball]

I do not want to risk owning or driving a car in SE asia. I learned about a few folks waiting for their house to sell overseas to get the funds to pay for an accident.

or because they just don't want the hassle of coping with driving here

I would guess this is exactly what the above amounts to? It is a hassle to drive here, and when in traffic you are not only relying on your own driving skills - any such drunk, exhausted, drugged and/or reckless drivers can cause you to be involved in an accident by running into your own vehicle through no fault of your own...

[Plus]

I think Japan has the policy of not allowing its nationals to drive in Thailand. I heard it's because of insurance claims - Japanese will never be liable for whatever happens.

[qualtrough]

I do not want to risk owning or driving a car in SE asia. I learned about a few folks waiting for their house to sell overseas to get the funds to pay for an accident.

or because they just don't want the hassle of coping with driving here

I would guess this is exactly what the above amounts to? It is a hassle to drive here, and when in traffic you are not only relying on your own driving skills - any such drunk, exhausted, drugged and/or reckless drivers can cause you to be involved in an accident by running into your own vehicle through no fault of your own...

I disagree. Note that the writer used the word 'risk' and brought up the fact that he met some people who had been involved in an accident. Seems pretty clear to me.

I see the difference as this. All other things being equal the risk of being the victim of another driver is the same whether you are sitting in your own car or sitting in the back of a taxi. But all things are not equal. If you are driving at least you know whether you are sober or not, and you can control how well or recklessly you drive. If you depend on public transport drivers you will inevitably be driven, probably more frequently than you realize, by someone who is drunk, on drugs, very tired, or just doesn't really care if he lives or dies.

I want to make it clear that I am not arguing that everyone should drive here. The point I am trying to make is that those who think they are safer being driven by others may be putting their faith where it doesn't belong.

[qualtrough]

I think Japan has the policy of not allowing its nationals to drive in Thailand. I heard it's because of insurance claims - Japanese will never be liable for whatever happens.

I think a lot of Japanese woud be very surprised to learn that. Any Japanese forum readers?

[The Skipper]

I don't think the OP was as concerned about the accident itself as his fear of being held responsible and then scammed/fleeced by various victims, cops, etc.

[tourleadersi]

I want to make it clear that I am not arguing that everyone should drive here. The point I am trying to make is that those who think they are safer being driven by others may be putting their faith where it doesn't belong.

Couple of nights back I was in a cab heading to Sukumvit. Every time we got close to a traffic light the driver would slap his forehead....really hard. At first I thought it was some kind of compulsive disorder or a superstition to keep the light green. Then on one long stretch of road he slumped over the wheel asleep so I applied the slapping.

Juut ti ni khaap!

Nothing quite like a late night walk. Gave me time to think about buying my own car....

[steveromagnino]

I think Japan has the policy of not allowing its nationals to drive in Thailand. I heard it's because of insurance claims - Japanese will never be liable for whatever happens.

I think a lot of Japanese woud be very surprised to learn that. Any Japanese forum readers?

My ex girlfriend has never heard anything about this. ANd she is Japanese....hmmmm...maybe this is an embassy thing; but anyway I still am not convinced?!

[camerata]

Some years ago I knew a guy who hit a pedestrian that walked out from behind a parked bus. He said it was so sudden there was nothing much he could do and the pedestrian's leg was broken. After negotiations with the police he ended up paying 75,000 baht, even though it wasn't his fault. The police's attitude was that since he had the brakes, it was his responsibility.

The police seem to have their own rules to make life easier for them. There's the rule about "the biggest vehicle pays" and other rules about who pays depending on which part of the vehicle is damaged. If a drunken motorcyclist hits your car in the front, you'll end up paying because you're supposed to be able to see what's in front of you. This kind of settlement by negotiation (with police) is part of Thai culture, but it's pretty frustrating for foreigners. Fortunately, I don't need to drive because I live in the centre of town.

[Ling Kae]

I was just reading another topic and saw that one poster wrote the following:

"I do not want to risk owning or driving a car in SE asia. I learned about a few folks waiting for their house to sell overseas to get the funds to pay for an accident."

Hasn't he heard of insurance??

I would rather trust my own judgment than anybody elses.

[Plus]

Re. Japanese, perhaps the policy refers to company owned cars. Two Japanese I know can't drive their company issued cars themselves. Of course if it's Sat and they are out to the pub/clug and don't want to return home with a driver than it's a different story. They also can't fly Cambodian airlines, not on the company's money at least.

In fact the engineer guy from Auttaya has many restrictions on where and how he spends his holidays as they are all paid by the company.

[smartecosse]

my boss was in his car, indicator on, inthe rh lane, stationary waiting for the oncoming traffic to stop so he could make the turn. a 4x4 drives into the back of his car and does a small amount of damage to both vehicles. the thai driver did not see him etc etc.

the police arrive and sort everything out in super quick time. No problem they say, its my boss's fault ?? the reason - he is a farang and so can afford for his insurance premiums to go up!

thats why i dont have a car here

[Nordlys]

I think Japan has the policy of not allowing its nationals to drive in Thailand. I heard it's because of insurance claims - Japanese will never be liable for whatever happens.

I think a lot of Japanese woud be very surprised to learn that. Any Japanese forum readers?

Most Japanese working and living in Thailand on expat package aren't encouraged by their employer to drive in Thailand (so are many farang expats) but I know lot of locally hired Japanese including myself and their spouses regularly drive and so do those who are stationed in Thailand on weekends when their drivers are not around. Japanese embassy in Thailand distributes general guidance to safety in Thailand which explains what to caution of when driving in Thailand. The government is in no position to forbid its nationals to do what they can do legally in their country and their host countries.

[jdinasia]

Some years ago I knew a guy who hit a pedestrian that walked out from behind a parked bus. He said it was so sudden there was nothing much he could do and the pedestrian's leg was broken. After negotiations with the police he ended up paying 75,000 baht, even though it wasn't his fault. The police's attitude was that since he had the brakes, it was his responsibility.

The police seem to have their own rules to make life easier for them. There's the rule about "the biggest vehicle pays" and other rules about who pays depending on which part of the vehicle is damaged. If a drunken motorcyclist hits your car in the front, you'll end up paying because you're supposed to be able to see what's in front of you. This kind of settlement by negotiation (with police) is part of Thai culture, but it's pretty frustrating for foreigners. Fortunately, I don't need to drive because I live in the centre of town.

First Class Insurance is always the answer ... and the only answer

[Scott]

I drive because I feel a lot safer when I am in control. I take things slow (not dangerously slow), and try to be courteous. Always watch for people coming out from between cars, trucks busses etc.

Frankly, I had too many close calls in taxi's and buses (as well as being in them when they hit something). It was too nerve racking.

[Nordlys]

Some years ago I knew a guy who hit a pedestrian that walked out from behind a parked bus. He said it was so sudden there was nothing much he could do and the pedestrian's leg was broken. After negotiations with the police he ended up paying 75,000 baht, even though it wasn't his fault. The police's attitude was that since he had the brakes, it was his responsibility.

The police seem to have their own rules to make life easier for them. There's the rule about "the biggest vehicle pays" and other rules about who pays depending on which part of the vehicle is damaged. If a drunken motorcyclist hits your car in the front, you'll end up paying because you're supposed to be able to see what's in front of you. This kind of settlement by negotiation (with police) is part of Thai culture, but it's pretty frustrating for foreigners. Fortunately, I don't need to drive because I live in the centre of town.

First Class Insurance is always the answer ... and the only answer

And most first class auto insurance in Thailand only has 100,000 Baht limited coverage for accidents causing death...

[thaihome]

In very poor countries there can be problems for foreigners driving and accidents as people have been known to throw themselves in front of car or purposely drive a bicycle or other vehicle into you, hoping for the big settlement to which the OP was referring to. In my experience, Thailand does not have much risk of this compared to say China. My company does not allow expats to drive in China mainly for this reason, along with the general insanity of Chinese drivers. We do get drivers here in Bangkok, but assigned outside of Bangkok or on weekends, you drive yourself.

TH

[jdinasia]

Some years ago I knew a guy who hit a pedestrian that walked out from behind a parked bus. He said it was so sudden there was nothing much he could do and the pedestrian's leg was broken. After negotiations with the police he ended up paying 75,000 baht, even though it wasn't his fault. The police's attitude was that since he had the brakes, it was his responsibility.

The police seem to have their own rules to make life easier for them. There's the rule about "the biggest vehicle pays" and other rules about who pays depending on which part of the vehicle is damaged. If a drunken motorcyclist hits your car in the front, you'll end up paying because you're supposed to be able to see what's in front of you. This kind of settlement by negotiation (with police) is part of Thai culture, but it's pretty frustrating for foreigners. Fortunately, I don't need to drive because I live in the centre of town.

First Class Insurance is always the answer ... and the only answer

And most first class auto insurance in Thailand only has 100,000 Baht limited coverage for accidents causing death...

100,000 ... hmmm not our policy ....

[moonoi]

my boss was in his car, indicator on, inthe rh lane, stationary waiting for the oncoming traffic to stop so he could make the turn. a 4x4 drives into the back of his car and does a small amount of damage to both vehicles. the thai driver did not see him etc etc.

the police arrive and sort everything out in super quick time. No problem they say, its my boss's fault ?? the reason - he is a farang and so can afford for his insurance premiums to go up!

thats why i dont have a car here

I've been rear ended 3 times by motorcycles, Once by a truck and on each occasion its been there fault. Its really easy, just call your insurance company and wait for the insurance guy to arrive. He won't accept blame if its clearly not your fault as that is in the best interest of the insurance company.

For the truck I had to go to the police station as I wouldn't accept responsibilty and neither would the other driver. Down at the cop shop the other guy had to pay a 400 baht fine and told it was his fault, by the police nothing for me at all.

All in all I think stories like the above one are the minority rather than the rule. Providing that you call your insurance company and let them sort things out you shouldn't have a problem.

Edited July 13, 2006 by moonoi

[qualtrough]

And most first class auto insurance in Thailand only has 100,000 Baht limited coverage for accidents causing death...

This is abolutely incorrect. I am looking at the policy for my old Land Rover. Third Party Liability per person and per accident is listed as...Unlimited. Property Damage is 5,000,000 per accident. Since it is an older car I only pay something like $125 per year. I have had one serious accident driving here, totally my fault. Fortunately nobody was hurt. Damage to the other car probably amounted to over 50,000 Baht, but I will never know because the adjuster came on a motorbike and took care of everything. Never heard from the other driver again. My ins. went up about 750 Baht that year. I think I spent something like 2000 Baht getting my bent fender fixed.

Judging from the comments so far it seems that in addition to possibly misplaced safety concerns some people also may be basing their decision on misinformation.

Edited July 13, 2006 by qualtrough

[geoffphuket]

I've often wondered what would happen if you knocked someone off a motorbike and killed them. Accidents do happen. Could you end up on murder charge?

[Sulaphat]

And most first class auto insurance in Thailand only has 100,000 Baht limited coverage for accidents causing death...

The mandatory scheme evidenced by the Por Ror Bor sticker you put on your windscreen and show when registering your car each year provides baht 100k death benefits on a "no-fault" basis. I think this is what you are referring to. This is not "first class insurance", but it is all that the majority of vehicles on Thailand's roads are covered for.

Most first class insurance policies would provide much higher limits of liability on top of the mandatory scheme.

[Donz]

I've often wondered what would happen if you knocked someone off a motorbike and killed them. Accidents do happen. Could you end up on murder charge?

Maybe if you were drunk or aiming for him on purpose

[Neeranam]

I heard of a guy driving a pick-up who was hit by a motorcycle coming up the wrong side of the road without any light, none of the 3 drunk passengers had helmets. He(Thai guy) was made pay a lot of money to the victims families.

I don't think it has anything to do with being a farang. It has to do with other things like how much 'influence' you have. Sadly for most farang they don't know how to stand up for themselves.

I was hit by a pick-up(always bloody pick-ups) coming on the wrong side of the road at about 40 km/h.

At first, they tried top pin it on me until they realised I was not just of the boat with money to throw at them, also understanding what they were talking about. I got damages, compensation and a new car(although took bloody ages).

The head policeman told me that they were very careful about how they treat there distinguised foreign guests(honest he said that!). I was wearing a shirt and tie and I do work for the government.

Back about 8 years, I was a drunken, clueless, English teacher and got in an accident - I was screwed.

The first thing you should do is to call the insurance, followed by anyone of any influence that you know.

QUOTE(geoffphuket @ 2006-07-13 19:59:46) *

I've often wondered what would happen if you knocked someone off a motorbike and killed them. Accidents do happen. Could you end up on murder charge?

Yes!

Edited July 13, 2006 by Neeranam

[TBWG]

And most first class auto insurance in Thailand only has 100,000 Baht limited coverage for accidents causing death...

This is abolutely incorrect. I am looking at the policy for my old Land Rover. Third Party Liability per person and per accident is listed as...Unlimited. Property Damage is 5,000,000 per accident.

Hi

Although I do not doubt what you say, it is impractical to issue a policy for unlimited liability.

Insurance companies can only take on business comensurate with their capital, therefore 1 policy issued on an unlimited basis would exceed their assets and mean they are insolvent.

Insurers in turn buy reinsurance to protect themselves from catastophic loss and this coverage is mainly provided by the West who would place strict monetary limit on the coverage.

TBWG

[qualtrough]

And most first class auto insurance in Thailand only has 100,000 Baht limited coverage for accidents causing death...

This is abolutely incorrect. I am looking at the policy for my old Land Rover. Third Party Liability per person and per accident is listed as...Unlimited. Property Damage is 5,000,000 per accident.

Hi

Although I do not doubt what you say, it is impractical to issue a policy for unlimited liability.

Insurance companies can only take on business comensurate with their capital, therefore 1 policy issued on an unlimited basis would exceed their assets and mean they are insolvent.

Insurers in turn buy reinsurance to protect themselves from catastophic loss and this coverage is mainly provided by the West who would place strict monetary limit on the coverage.

TBWG

I wondered about that myself. The policy is from one of the major insurers here, Virayah. Perhaps someone in the insurance industry here might explain what 'unlimited' means in the Thai context?

[rcalsop]

I think Japan has the policy of not allowing its nationals to drive in Thailand. I heard it's because of insurance claims - Japanese will never be liable for whatever happens.

Wrong my Japanese friends do drive .

[jdinasia]

And most first class auto insurance in Thailand only has 100,000 Baht limited coverage for accidents causing death...

This is abolutely incorrect. I am looking at the policy for my old Land Rover. Third Party Liability per person and per accident is listed as...Unlimited. Property Damage is 5,000,000 per accident.

Hi

Although I do not doubt what you say, it is impractical to issue a policy for unlimited liability.

Insurance companies can only take on business comensurate with their capital, therefore 1 policy issued on an unlimited basis would exceed their assets and mean they are insolvent.

Insurers in turn buy reinsurance to protect themselves from catastophic loss and this coverage is mainly provided by the West who would place strict monetary limit on the coverage.

TBWG

I wondered about that myself. The policy is from one of the major insurers here, Virayah. Perhaps someone in the insurance industry here might explain what 'unlimited' means in the Thai context?

probably just means like any insurance company ... they'll try to protect you WHILE keeping their payouts low.

The point is the 100,000 was just not accurate