Woman beheaded in London attack

[Steely Dan]

The way it's done these days is to begin some sort of fad that demonstrates you belong to a particular ideology or you support a certain cause. Like the little lapel ribbons that say you support aids research or breast cancer charities. Or something like an ice bucket thingy. How hard could it be for moderate Muslims to come up with a symbolic action or identifier that says they have had enough of Islam being used to promote genocide and abuse. The ball is so deep in their court.

It's no guarantee that the action is sincere, but the world would appreciate seeing a little life from the non blood thirsty members of this now dubious and widely feared belief system.

But it won't happen, because they are either controlled by or are sympathetic to the nut-jobs; I believe for most it is both. And because they follow the Quaran.

What about a T-shirt with an arrow pointing to the neckline and the words 'Please cut here.'.

[jacky54]

Well let's be truthful acts of violence are not confined just to those ''dreadful Muslims'' are they?

True but ALL Islamic terrorist acts carried out in the name of the Prophet and quoting the koran to justify them are, including over 2,300 terrorist attacks since they flew planes in the WTC killing 3000 innocent people, barbaric acts driven by a barbaric religion.

Edited September 11, 2014 by jacky54

[canuckamuck]

Well let's be truthful acts of violence are not confined just to those ''dreadful Muslims'' are they?

Mind you none so blind as those who do wish to see nor so as deaf as those who do not want to hear.

http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/domestic-extremism-terrorism/c/anti-abortion-violence-americas-forgotten-terrorism-1.html

No one is saying that.

But there is sufficient violence to warrant the attention it gets. And is going to get.

[7by7]

No matter how many times you insist otherwise, most people think that this Muslim was inspired by Jihad. It is pretty obvious.

Only 'obvious' to those with an agenda who refuse to accept evidence which disproves their theories.

"Disproves?" The off-hand reaction of a couple of buddies is hardly conclusive "evidence" and justified concern over the activities of radical Islam is not an "agenda."

The only "offhand reaction of a couple of buddies" was about his conversion to Islam!

You have taken that as conclusive proof this was a jihadist attack by a Muslim terrorist!

All the independent evidence, not from people perched 6000 miles away but from actual eyewitnesses on the spot at the time, as well as the information garnered by the police shows that Salvador's religion had nothing to do with this.

However, as I have said thrice before; if later evidence, e.g. at his trial, proves me wrong I will publicly admit it and eat as much humble pie as you wish.

I've asked you thrice if you will do the same if you are proven wrong; you wont answer.

Why?

Afraid that you'll have to do so?

Do you not have the courage of your convictions?

Go on, put your money where your mouth is!

Justified concern over radical Islam terrorism and jihads is not an agenda. Attempts to convince that all Muslims secretly support same and using tragic events such as this to justify that is an agenda; a very nasty one.

Edited September 11, 2014 by 7by7

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted.

[Ulysses G.]

No matter how many times you insist otherwise, most people think that this Muslim was inspired by Jihad. It is pretty obvious.

Only 'obvious' to those with an agenda who refuse to accept evidence which disproves their theories.

"Disproves?" The off-hand reaction of a couple of buddies is hardly conclusive "evidence" and justified concern over the activities of radical Islam is not an "agenda."

The only "offhand reaction of a couple of buddies" was about his conversion to Islam!

You have taken that as conclusive proof this was a jihadist attack by a Muslim terrorist!

All the independent evidence, not from people perched 6000 miles away but from actual eyewitnesses on the spot at the time, as well as the information garnered by the police shows that Salvador's religion had nothing to do with this.

You keep pretending that there is more than a very small amount of any kind of evidence at all, but there isn't. The fact that a Muslim went out and chopped of an old woman's head off, after the recent Islamic beheadings in the Middle East, outweighs a few buddies' off-hand reaction when he was arrested.

There is no way that I am making any deals with someone who refuses to admit the truth when presented with solid evidence that proves they were wrong. Forget it.

[7by7]

Some quotes removed to comply with forum software.

Are you (7by7) claiming Islam does not hate Jews, gays and well, just any unbeliever? obviously it hates women or it would not ok the beating of them, the stoning of them for having sex and their word being only worth half that of a man and that a man can have 4 wives but a woman only one husband, who can do to her what he wants to, as a plough going into the fields! Almost forgot genital mutilation killing them for 'honour' and selling children off to old men.

Some Muslims hate Jews, most don't.

Some Christians hate Jews, most don't.

Some Jews hate Muslims and Christians; most don't.

Yes, some pretty nasty things in the Koran; and you can say the same about both Old and New Testaments!

What the Church teaches about homosexual inclinations from the Catholic News Agency.

.....any and every homosexual act is a seriously disordered kind of activity which, if freely and deliberately chosen, is a serious sin.....

Why persecuting homosexuals is all the rage in the developing world

The taboo against same-sex activity is getting stronger, not weaker. The spread of Islamism is a factor: its no coincidence that homosexuality is legal in the Palestinian Authority-controlled West Bank but not in Hamas-controlled Gaza. However, Christians and Hindus are implicated, too.

In Nigeria, Anglican clergy helped pass into law the Same-Sex Marriage Prohibition Act, which bans even displays of affection between homosexuals. In Uganda, parliament has passed a bill that calls on citizens to report homosexuals to the authorities. India has just recriminalised gay sex.

FGM has been gone over many times on TV, and despite the fact that this horrendous activity has been shown time and time again to be a cultural thing not a Muslim thing, that it's practice pre dates Islam by thousands of years, that it is practised today by Muslim and non Muslim alike in certain regions; people like you still want to blame it on Islam and attempt to convince the world that only Muslims carry out this vile deed.

The same can be said of child abuse, spousal abuse, everything you have listed.

[transam]

Some quotes removed to comply with forum software.

Are you (7by7) claiming Islam does not hate Jews, gays and well, just any unbeliever? obviously it hates women or it would not ok the beating of them, the stoning of them for having sex and their word being only worth half that of a man and that a man can have 4 wives but a woman only one husband, who can do to her what he wants to, as a plough going into the fields! Almost forgot genital mutilation killing them for 'honour' and selling children off to old men.

Some Muslims hate Jews, most don't.

Some Christians hate Jews, most don't.

Some Jews hate Muslims and Christians; most don't.

Yes, some pretty nasty things in the Koran; and you can say the same about both Old and New Testaments!

What the Church teaches about homosexual inclinations from the Catholic News Agency.

.....any and every homosexual act is a seriously disordered kind of activity which, if freely and deliberately chosen, is a serious sin.....

Why persecuting homosexuals is all the rage in the developing world

The taboo against same-sex activity is getting stronger, not weaker. The spread of Islamism is a factor: its no coincidence that homosexuality is legal in the Palestinian Authority-controlled West Bank but not in Hamas-controlled Gaza. However, Christians and Hindus are implicated, too.

In Nigeria, Anglican clergy helped pass into law the Same-Sex Marriage Prohibition Act, which bans even displays of affection between homosexuals. In Uganda, parliament has passed a bill that calls on citizens to report homosexuals to the authorities. India has just recriminalised gay sex.

FGM has been gone over many times on TV, and despite the fact that this horrendous activity has been shown time and time again to be a cultural thing not a Muslim thing, that it's practice pre dates Islam by thousands of years, that it is practised today by Muslim and non Muslim alike in certain regions; people like you still want to blame it on Islam and attempt to convince the world that only Muslims carry out this vile deed.

The same can be said of child abuse, spousal abuse, everything you have listed.

Todays killing spree in the 21st century worldwide is not a Muslim thing......

[7by7]

Some quotes removed to comply with forum software.

You keep pretending that there is more than a very small amount of any kind of evidence at all, but there isn't. The fact that a Muslim went out and chopped of an old woman's head off, after the recent Islamic beheadings in the Middle East, outweighs a few buddies' off-hand reaction when he was arrested.
There is no way that I am making any deals with someone who refuses to admit the truth when presented with solid evidence that proves they were wrong. Forget it.

I am not talking about "a few buddies off hand reaction when he was arrested." I am talking about all the eyewitness accounts as reported all over the UK media.

The only "off hand reaction" from "few buddies" of Salavador's was about his conversion to Islam.

It is on that "off hand reaction" you have based your own argument; ignoring the masses of reported evidence which contradicts your hypotheses.

It is no wonder that you wont put your money where your mouth is and are afraid of agreeing that if you are proven wrong to publicly admit it!

[Ulysses G.]

Sorry, there are no "masses" of evidence. As usual, you are spinning, the few facts available, dishonestly.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

Some quotes removed to comply with forum software.

Todays killing spree in the 21st century worldwide is not a Muslim thing......

Although you obviously meant the opposite, you are, for once, correct.

It is not just a Muslim thing, the problems and fighting in many parts of the world have many causes.

Some are caused by Islamic jihadists, using their faith as an excuse; others are not.

For example, the Russian insurgents in Ukraine are not Muslim, neither is the Ukrainian government. Islam has nothing to do with the fighting there, nor the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner; whoever is responsible, government forces or insurgents..

Using the activities of Islamic jihadists and terrorists to justify a hatred and persecution of all Muslims is not going to solve the problem of Islamic jihadists.

If any group of people are persecuted, they eventually start to fight back. People like you and the websites and videos you support and often link to are only going to make the problem worse.

You are the best recruiting agents the Islamic jihadists could ever hope for.

[7by7]

Sorry, there are no "masses" of evidence. As usual, you are spinning, the few facts available, dishonestly.

I am spinning nothing (how you love using that word when you know you are wrong but your stubborn pride wont let you admit it).

It is you who is spinning an off hand remark made by a couple of Salvador's acquaintances into an Islamic conspiracy!

As said before, even The Sun, who started all this nonsense, has dropped it!

[transam]

Some quotes removed to comply with forum software.

Todays killing spree in the 21st century worldwide is not a Muslim thing......

Although you obviously meant the opposite, you are, for once, correct.

It is not just a Muslim thing, the problems and fighting in many parts of the world have many causes.

Some are caused by Islamic jihadists, using their faith as an excuse; others are not.

For example, the Russian insurgents in Ukraine are not Muslim, neither is the Ukrainian government. Islam has nothing to do with the fighting there, nor the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner; whoever is responsible, government forces or insurgents..

Using the activities of Islamic jihadists and terrorists to justify a hatred and persecution of all Muslims is not going to solve the problem of Islamic jihadists.

If any group of people are persecuted, they eventually start to fight back. People like you and the websites and videos you support and often link to are only going to make the problem worse.

You are the best recruiting agents the Islamic jihadists could ever hope for.

Seems YOU don't understand that folk with noooooo problem are being killed by your pals for noooooooooo reason, you seem to understand why kids are being killed for nothing.........

Now come no 7 by 7, tell us why the religion YOU protect are killing kids....

GO FOR IT..................Am waiting.....

[Ulysses G.]

As said before, even The Sun, who started all this nonsense, has dropped it!

More spin. Pretty much everyone has stopped reporting on it. It is old news. What is there left to say? A Muslim chopped an old women's head off and there is very little evidence as to what motivated him, but it is obvious to most people, that he was influenced by the Islamic beheadings in the Middle East. End of story.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Scott]

Please keep the discussion civil and address the topic and not other posters.

[7by7]

As said before, even The Sun, who started all this nonsense, has dropped it!

More spin. Pretty much everyone has stopped reporting on it. It is old news. What is there left to say? A Muslim chopped an old women's head off and there is very little evidence as to what motivated him, but it is obvious to most people, that he was influenced by the Islamic beheadings in the Middle East. End of story.

Obvious to most people?

Yes, the reasons for this attack, as widely reported, are obvious to most people; and they appear to have nothing to do with his religion, but a lot to do with his state of mind and drug and alcohol abuse..

However, we await the trial for all the evidence to emerge.

I have already publicly committed myself to what I shall do if that does show that he was motivated by his religion.

You refuse to make such a commitment if you are proven wrong.

'Nuff said.

[7by7]

I have said many times what I will do if proven wrong about Salvador and his motivations.

I have asked if any of you will make the same commitment.

That none of you will do so proves that you do not have the courage of your convictions and that your posts are therefore just hot air.

As that is the case, there is no point in attempting debate with you as logical debate is not your desire.

Until further developments on this case are reported in the media, I leave you to your silly games.

[jacky54]

Betting you will do something on the outcome of a savage murder? that's not 'debating' surely, but in rather bad taste!

Edited September 11, 2014 by jacky54

[transam]

I have said many times what I will do if proven wrong about Salvador and his motivations.

I have asked if any of you will make the same commitment.

That none of you will do so proves that you do not have the courage of your convictions and that your posts are therefore just hot air.

As that is the case, there is no point in attempting debate with you as logical debate is not your desire.

Until further developments on this case are reported in the media, I leave you to your silly games.

Sorry chummy, but every single thread that turns up on Tv regarding atrocities by folk of "your" religious friends you are here making excuses for them.

You say, We are all racist, we don't understand stuff, the murderers had a bad childhood, you know, crap talk. Some here just wait for "someones" excuse for shit, sad to say it has become entertainment for a good laugh.

[7by7]

Betting you will do something on the outcome of a savage murder? that's not 'debating' surely, but in rather bad taste!

Not betting; making a public commitment to a certain action if I am proven wrong.

I am willing to make that commitment because I am certain I am right on this.

That you wont make the same commitment only proves you are not.

Having replied to your ridiculous assertion, I am now leaving this topic until there is more actual real news to discuss, rather than the ramblings of people who apparently don't even believe what they are posting themselves!

[transam]

Betting you will do something on the outcome of a savage murder? that's not 'debating' surely, but in rather bad taste!

Not betting; making a public commitment to a certain action if I am proven wrong.

I am willing to make that commitment because I am certain I am right on this.

That you wont make the same commitment only proves you are not.

Having replied to your ridiculous assertion, I am now leaving this topic until there is more actual real news to discuss, rather than the ramblings of people who apparently don't even believe what they are posting themselves!

Sounds good to me...Adios........

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory posts and replies deleted.

[Thorgal]

Well, fervour prouves nothing but fervour, it does not prove in what you believe is real, it does not even prove genuine belief.

And if somebody kills in the name of their God they have not proven that their God is real or even that their faith is genuine, all they have proven is that they are a killer.

Similarly being killed because somebody disagrees in what you believe in, does not make you a martyr or your ideas right or wrong. It just makes you dead.

Why making a process of Islam instead of the killer ?

You didn't respond to my second question. What about the influence of others if you take now the kill as a part of Jihad ?

Edited September 11, 2014 by Thorgal

[jacky54]

Sorry chummy, but every single thread that turns up on Tv regarding atrocities by folk of "your" religious friends you are here making excuses for them.

You say, We are all racist, we don't understand stuff, the murderers had a bad childhood, you know, crap talk. Some here just wait for "someones" excuse for shit, sad to say it has become entertainment for a good laugh.

I seem to remember the most savage rape in Swedish history last year by 12 Afghan Muslims, the poor woman had 3 of them in her at a time and it went on for hours. Same sad apologies, muddying the water and finger pointing at others, sad really.

[jacky54]

Betting you will do something on the outcome of a savage murder? that's not 'debating' surely, but in rather bad taste!

Not betting; making a public commitment to a certain action if I am proven wrong.

I am willing to make that commitment because I am certain I am right on this.

That you wont make the same commitment only proves you are not.

Having replied to your ridiculous assertion, I am now leaving this topic until there is more actual real news to discuss, rather than the ramblings of people who apparently don't even believe what they are posting themselves!

Well maybe others do not want to trivialise a tragedy by trying to score points on the details of it. You promised to leave a similar discussion some time ago, but were back two minutes later after having called the thread a 'cesspit' I think people do believe what they are posting, but maybe do not want to follow your rather odd declaration of intent.

[simple1]

Betting you will do something on the outcome of a savage murder? that's not 'debating' surely, but in rather bad taste!

Not betting; making a public commitment to a certain action if I am proven wrong.

I am willing to make that commitment because I am certain I am right on this.

That you wont make the same commitment only proves you are not.

Having replied to your ridiculous assertion, I am now leaving this topic until there is more actual real news to discuss, rather than the ramblings of people who apparently don't even believe what they are posting themselves!

Well maybe others do not want to trivialise a tragedy by trying to score points on the details of it. You promised to leave a similar discussion some time ago, but were back two minutes later after having called the thread a 'cesspit' I think people do believe what they are posting, but maybe do not want to follow your rather odd declaration of intent.

In the reverse you and others are 'trivialising this tragedy' by asserting, without actual proof, the motivation of the murderer was based upon Islamic extremism as a vehicle to support anti-Islamic sentiment.

There is much actual proof of the crimes committed by Islamic extremists, for the moment, with this murder there is none. Let's wait to see if the forensic psychology and other evidence gathering support the premise of Islamic extremism being the motivation for the murder.

Edited September 11, 2014 by simple1

[jacky54]

Betting you will do something on the outcome of a savage murder? that's not 'debating' surely, but in rather bad taste!

Not betting; making a public commitment to a certain action if I am proven wrong.

I am willing to make that commitment because I am certain I am right on this.

That you wont make the same commitment only proves you are not.

Having replied to your ridiculous assertion, I am now leaving this topic until there is more actual real news to discuss, rather than the ramblings of people who apparently don't even believe what they are posting themselves!

Well maybe others do not want to trivialise a tragedy by trying to score points on the details of it. You promised to leave a similar discussion some time ago, but were back two minutes later after having called the thread a 'cesspit' I think people do believe what they are posting, but maybe do not want to follow your rather odd declaration of intent.

In the reverse you and others are 'trivialising this tragedy' by asserting, without actual proof, the motivation of the murderer was based upon Islamic extremism as a vehicle to support anti-Islamic sentiment.

There is much actual proof of the crimes committed by Islamic extremists, for the moment, with this murder there is none. Let's wait to see if the forensic psychology and other evidence gathering support the premise of Islamic extremism being the motivation for the murder.

well I have not claimed he murdered her because he was a Muslim extremist as I don't believe in them, there are only Muslims in my book and he was one, QED

[simple1]

Not betting; making a public commitment to a certain action if I am proven wrong.

I am willing to make that commitment because I am certain I am right on this.

That you wont make the same commitment only proves you are not.

Having replied to your ridiculous assertion, I am now leaving this topic until there is more actual real news to discuss, rather than the ramblings of people who apparently don't even believe what they are posting themselves!

Well maybe others do not want to trivialise a tragedy by trying to score points on the details of it. You promised to leave a similar discussion some time ago, but were back two minutes later after having called the thread a 'cesspit' I think people do believe what they are posting, but maybe do not want to follow your rather odd declaration of intent.

In the reverse you and others are 'trivialising this tragedy' by asserting, without actual proof, the motivation of the murderer was based upon Islamic extremism as a vehicle to support anti-Islamic sentiment.

There is much actual proof of the crimes committed by Islamic extremists, for the moment, with this murder there is none. Let's wait to see if the forensic psychology and other evidence gathering support the premise of Islamic extremism being the motivation for the murder.

well I have not claimed he murdered her because he was a Muslim extremist as I don't believe in them, there are only Muslims in my book and he was one, QED

Post removed to enable reply.

OK. Contradicts your previous assertions you only have an issue with the bad guys within the Islamic world, not all Muslims. Good example of grooming - QED

Edited September 12, 2014 by simple1

[jacky54]

well I have not claimed he murdered her because he was a Muslim extremist as I don't believe in them, there are only Muslims in my book and he was one, QED

Post removed to enable reply.

OK. Contradicts your previous assertions you only have an issue with the bad guys within the Islamic world, not all Muslims. Good example of grooming - QED

I do not have an issue with any 'guys' I have an issue with Islam. The problem is not one of Muslims of whatever degree of moderate or jihadist, the problem has always been and is Islam, there is no good in Islam. Islam is only violence, division, oppression of women, kaffir's and gays and 'other' Muslims of course, lets not forget all of them slaughtered in the name of this obscenity posing as the religion of peace and tolerance.

Edited September 12, 2014 by jacky54

[Steely Dan]

I see everything from thirty year old murders outside abortion clinics, Catholic views on homosexuality, to Bosnia are being pushed out as the usual diversionary smokescreen we get. Some things are certain. The murderer IS a convert to Islam. Severing a head, whether it occurs prior to or after death requires the premeditation of conscious effort to carry out. World events make the link between Islam and decapitation an easy one to conclude. Some may say the accused is of limited mentality and perhaps severed the head as a post-hoc 'justification' for a possibly drug fueled frenzied attack. I guess the reports he was a failure who never had any money or prospects will be used to explain away his actions as oppose to his ideology. However there is an increasing body of evidence that argues social depravation and limited intellect are not the prime motivators, but ideology is.

How else do you explain this? A British doctor holding up a severed head.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/398717/Jihadi-doctor-Syria-Islamic-State-executing