What's our economic contribution?

[garyinhuahin]

I see so many posts stating or implying that we're a mainstay of the Thai economy and that anything that inconveniences us will have dire consequences for the country as a whole.

So I got to wondering what the reality is. Does anyone know of credible estimates of what we (I'm thinking of Western expats, as opposed to tourists) actually contribute to the country, absolute or in comparison to agriculture, manufacturing, short-term tourism, general services, etc?

I don't imagine numbers can be quantified exactly, since no one seems to know even how many of us there are here and a lot of activity is underground. But some stats should not be hard to obtain, such as the number of retirement and marriage extensions issued in a year. Work Permit and tax info might be available from the Labor Department.

Not trying to start an argument. Just curious to gather some information.

[chrisinth]

I would guesstimate that the economic offerings from expats is not nearly as much as some people imagine. Given that an expat working here is on a substantially larger wage than a local in the first place, would for me offset their contribution to the economy.

I think the main contribution from expats (in certain areas only) is the transfer of knowledge and probably more important, the transfer of process.

That said, it doesn't make the expat an essential commodity, just a convenience.

IMHO of course.....................

[Thakkar]

But...but...all the 30 baht meals I buy, where would all the vendors be without me? They charge fellow Thais 25 baht for the same meal, man. I'm the one they make the bulk of their profits from.

T

[chrisinth]

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But...but...all the 30 baht meals I buy, where would all the vendors be without me? They charge fellow Thais 25 baht for the same meal, man. I'm the one they make the bulk of their profits from.

T

You have a good point there T.

I get grief from our accounts department every time I put my expenses in. When I finally convince them that is what I actually paid, they say OK and then get tax relief from all the extra 5 bahts for the company.

Taking from the economy and not giving. Sad really....................

[Costas2008]

OP, may be I don't contribute very much in the Thai economy as I haven't got too much money to spare.

But, I give Thailand the ultimate pleasure of accommodating me and my charm.

Every Thai is so proud of me being here, that I can't get out of my house and some Thai point at me and shout Farang.

Girls, love touching my beer belly and keep telling me how hansum I am.

Ladyboys keep grubbing my bum and asking me "where you from?"

Money is not everything in life and I am the living example of that.

[Thakkar]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

But...but...all the 30 baht meals I buy, where would all the vendors be without me? They charge fellow Thais 25 baht for the same meal, man. I'm the one they make the bulk of their profits from.

T

You have a good point there T.

I get grief from our accounts department every time I put my expenses in. When I finally convince them that is what I actually paid, they say OK and then get tax relief from all the extra 5 bahts for the company.

Taking from the economy and not giving. Sad really....................

"Taking from the economy and not giving" -- so true.

On a serious note...

I have thought about this before whenever I hear about expats complaining how much they contribute. The truth is, we are actually living off their poverty as much as they are living off our "contribution"

Think about that, people.

Besides that, let's remember that there are many hidden as well as explicit subsidies we enjoy without (as non citizens) having the birthright. A partial list:

Rice, gasoline, electricity, water, rubber, palm oil, roads and highways (there's no road tax and the car registration fee is ridiculously low), etc.

Even something like free healthcare, which you'd think we don't benefit from, we do. For example, your maid or car mechanic or gardener is cheaper to hire because they don't have to save up for medical emergencies.

I am convinced that it is we that are taking advantage of them.

T

[Thai at Heart]

If by Thai measurement, a house that earns 30k per month is considered middlish class, I would say the vast majority of foreigners are adding at least that if not 2 or 3 (in some cases 10 or 15) times that to the economy.

Tourism is how much? 10% of the economy. So add in the long stayers. Maybe 12 to 15% of the economy. Then add in exports which is basically earnings generated by selling to foreigners which is another 40% of the economy and its fair to say, farangs own the Thai economy.

Funny how they make it so difficult to stay and do business. You would think they would be bendingnover backwards to make it easier.

[Thai at Heart]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

But...but...all the 30 baht meals I buy, where would all the vendors be without me? They charge fellow Thais 25 baht for the same meal, man. I'm the one they make the bulk of their profits from.

T

You have a good point there T.

I get grief from our accounts department every time I put my expenses in. When I finally convince them that is what I actually paid, they say OK and then get tax relief from all the extra 5 bahts for the company.

Taking from the economy and not giving. Sad really....................

"Taking from the economy and not giving" -- so true.

On a serious note...

I have thought about this before whenever I hear about expats complaining how much they contribute. The truth is, we are actually living off their poverty as much as they are living off our "contribution"

Think about that, people.

Besides that, let's remember that there are many hidden as well as explicit subsidies we enjoy without (as non citizens) having the birthright. A partial list:

Rice, gasoline, electricity, water, rubber, palm oil, roads and highways (there's no road tax and the car registration fee is ridiculously low), etc.

Even something like free healthcare, which you'd think we don't benefit from, we do. For example, your maid or car mechanic or gardener is cheaper to hire because they don't have to save up for medical emergencies.

I am convinced that it is we that are taking advantage of them.

T

Their poverty is their problem. They have a govt and they make the rules. They are the one with the horrendous wealth distribution. No one has ever asked a falang opinion about how to solve poverty in Thailand.

That is 110% of their own making.

[Thakkar]

"Their poverty is their problem."

Indeed, it *is* their problem. But that doesn't mean we aren't gaining from its existence.

T

[Gecko123]

Irrespective of what the official statistics say, I've always wondered how a foreigner sending money every month to a girlfriend or building a house or supporting a family figures into the GNP statistics. I doubt this shows up as part of the tourism sector. Maybe direct foreign investment?

As for Westerners who imagine that they drive the Thai tourism industry, and the tourism sector drives the economy, my understanding is that the majority of tourists in Thailand are Asian, and the official statistics put tourism in the 10-15% of GNP range. I know that in my provincial immigration office the vast majority of people in there are Asian - - very few Westerners.

[enuff said]

.

For the penurious tight bastids who worship money above all else, their is no placating them. No matter what the price, it's too much and all must bow down to them when they open their wallets. Most of them are here because "you don't have to tip". How much hateful, begrudging, pinchy pinchy baht do they contribute? To the GNP? Spit. Practically nothing.

Thailand could ban tourism tomorrow and barely hiccup. 6% of the economy gone? Who would miss it? They would make it back in 2 years.

Thais have their own culture, books, art, music, dance. Well established agriculture, factory, wholesale, retail and international trade sectors as well as tons of resources. Thais have a lot going on.

That's why so many cowboys show up, look around for 10 minutes and declare the place their own private plum, ripe for the plucking. "What this place needs is another beer bar." How many...? 10 a week on TVF alone with "I wanna open a _____________ business."

Whatever "IT" is, Thailand has "IT" and thousands of farang are scratching and clawing to work here, live here, invest here.

They really don't need tourism at all.

'nuff said

~

[Thai at Heart]

"Their poverty is their problem."

Indeed, it *is* their problem. But that doesn't mean we aren't gaining from its existence.

T

Gain is subjective. By employing people you are doing your bit. If you pay minimum and comply with the law, (in terms of employing domestic staff), you are doing more than 99% of Thais.

Thailand could have gone in any number of paths and directions to benefit the lower parts of society. They didn't. That is Thailand's cross to bear.

[Thakkar]

"Their poverty is their problem."

Indeed, it *is* their problem. But that doesn't mean we aren't gaining from its existence.

T

Gain is subjective. By employing people you are doing your bit. If you pay minimum and comply with the law, (in terms of employing domestic staff), you are doing more than 99% of Thais.

Thailand could have gone in any number of paths and directions to benefit the lower parts of society. They didn't. That is Thailand's cross to bear.

Again, agreed that it is "Thailand's cross to bear"

That doesn't negate the fact that we are getting the benefit of their poverty which allows us to pay these ridiculously low wages.

T

[Thai at Heart]

"Their poverty is their problem."

Indeed, it *is* their problem. But that doesn't mean we aren't gaining from its existence.

T

Gain is subjective. By employing people you are doing your bit. If you pay minimum and comply with the law, (in terms of employing domestic staff), you are doing more than 99% of Thais.

Thailand could have gone in any number of paths and directions to benefit the lower parts of society. They didn't. That is Thailand's cross to bear.

Again, agreed that it is "Thailand's cross to bear"

That doesn't negate the fact that we are getting the benefit of their poverty which allows us to pay these ridiculously low wages.

T

Well, if you were earning Thai wages you wouldn't be able to afford to employ them, so, that could be reversed.

Thailand is benefiting by the wealth afforded u.

[Thakkar]

"Their poverty is their problem."

Indeed, it *is* their problem. But that doesn't mean we aren't gaining from its existence.

T

Gain is subjective. By employing people you are doing your bit. If you pay minimum and comply with the law, (in terms of employing domestic staff), you are doing more than 99% of Thais.

Thailand could have gone in any number of paths and directions to benefit the lower parts of society. They didn't. That is Thailand's cross to bear.

Again, agreed that it is "Thailand's cross to bear"

That doesn't negate the fact that we are getting the benefit of their poverty which allows us to pay these ridiculously low wages.

T

Well, if you were earning Thai wages you wouldn't be able to afford to employ them, so, that could be reversed.

Thailand is benefiting by the wealth afforded u.

You keep looking at it from the point of what "they" get out of "us"

But we gain as well. For example, If I were to live my current $2,500/month lifestyle in, say, London, it would cost me $5,000 a month. Right away, I save $2500 a month. An added bonus is better weather and less surly people.

Now, does all of that $2,500 that I spend go to benefit Thailand? No, because some it I claw back through the subsidies I enjoy whenever I fill up my gas tank, eat rice and use the roads, etc. I'm sure there is a net benefit to Thailand. But we aren't here to do them any favors out of the goodness of our hearts. We are here to take advantage of the weather, the friendliness and the lower cost of living. Let's not act as if we are their great benefactors in any way or form. We are here of our own free will for our own selfish needs and wants.

T

[Thai at Heart]

"Their poverty is their problem."

Indeed, it *is* their problem. But that doesn't mean we aren't gaining from its existence.

T

Gain is subjective. By employing people you are doing your bit. If you pay minimum and comply with the law, (in terms of employing domestic staff), you are doing more than 99% of Thais.

Thailand could have gone in any number of paths and directions to benefit the lower parts of society. They didn't. That is Thailand's cross to bear.

Again, agreed that it is "Thailand's cross to bear"

That doesn't negate the fact that we are getting the benefit of their poverty which allows us to pay these ridiculously low wages.

T

Well, if you were earning Thai wages you wouldn't be able to afford to employ them, so, that could be reversed.

Thailand is benefiting by the wealth afforded u.

You keep looking at it from the point of what "they" get out of "us"

But we gain as well. For example, If I were to live my current $2,500/month lifestyle in, say, London, it would cost me $5,000 a month. Right away, I save $2500 a month. An added bonus is better weather and less surly people.

Now, does all of that $2,500 that I spend go to benefit Thailand? No, because some it I claw back through the subsidies I enjoy whenever I fill up my gas tank, eat rice and use the roads, etc. I'm sure there is a net benefit to Thailand. But we aren't here to do them any favors out of the goodness of our hearts. We are here to take advantage of the weather, the friendliness and the lower cost of living. Let's not act as if we are their great benefactors in any way or form. We are here of our own free will for our own selfish needs and wants.

T

Well why not. There are two sides to the deal, and foreigners do not make up the majority of activity in the economy. All foreigners can do is comply with the law.

The legal rules could be raised, and I don't see any difference from a foreigner being able to have a maid to a Thai being able to have a maid.

The rules are set up to help Thais benefit from other Thais not foreigners. The wages are set to keep Thai businesses in existence not to provide a living for Thais. I truly beleive that the system is set up to benefit the rich over the poor in Thailand.

So, no one is stopping you paying twice or three times the minimum to your maid. Treat her well and she will be part of the family forever.

When I left, my mind and gardener cried like my own family and we are still in touch now.

[Toscano]

There are a large number of married men living in Thailand . I'm told that there are at least 100,000 living in Isaan alone , so one can guesstimate at least BT400,000,000 per month .

There are many living in Chang Mai and Chang Rai , Bangkok , Pattaya , Hua Hin and Phuket . In rural areas we build houses that gives work to builders and a market for builders merchants .

Thai neighbours see our smart houses and the do improvements to theirs . We set an example that Thais follow , that helps the regions rise above poverty .

[garyinhuahin]

Some very interesting perspectives here, but not much hard numbers.

It's hard to figure out where the numbers published in some recent articles come from, or how to compare apples and apples. TAT's published tourism stats only go through 2007, and don't seem to incorporate long-stayers.

In '07, the total net revenue from all international tourism is stated as just over 447 billion baht,. http://www2.tat.or.th/stat/web/static_tex.php?Year=2007 (Table Summary.xls)

Wikipedia lists Thailands GDP as of 2011 as 11,374 billion baht. They further state the tourism accounts for 6% of that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Thailand#2006_to_2011

That would equal about 682 billion baht, so there's a discrepancy but not too large. I do find a figure of 6% much more believable than the 10% I've seen claimed recently in newpaper articles and in this thread. If there's a source for that figure, I'd love to have it.

TAT breaks down the revenue by country (as of 2007) in some detail. Adding it up, it looks like European, American, Austalia/New Zealand, and South African countries account for 55%.

So 'white' tourism seems to be contributing just over 3% of Thailand's GDP. Or maybe it's less. Possibly it's more, but I tend to doubt it.

I find the proposition that long-stayers account for as much or more of the economy here as short-term tourism to be dubious at best, but I don't have the numbers to back that up. I was hoping to find some sources for these, but so far I only see impressions and opinions that range all over the map.

I don't know exactly constitutes a middle class household income in Thailand, or what the average budget of a long-stay farang is. I do know quite a few English teachers living alone and getting by on 30-35,000 THB a month. Retirees generally spend twice that, and yes there are always a few genuinely big spenders around. Most of the middle income Thai households I know of either have a single earner drawing a significantly higher wage, or else have multiple income streams. I do observe a lot of Thais driving cars that are nicer than mine.

There are poor people here, without a doubt, but I don't see the country as a whole as being poverty-stricken at this point. Middle-income is the term commonly applied. In the region Thailand seems to be 3rd best-off, after Singapore and Malaysia and way ahead of the rest. Further, most Thais seem to be optimistic, based on increasing earnings year on year. At the same time Americans and Europeans seem to be more on the pessimistic side as their purchasing power and financial security have eroded.

These are some of the numbers I have been able to find, and my rambling opinions and observations (I have that right, too) where I haven't yet been able to get my hands on the data.

Really, does anyone actually know how many retirement extensions are issued in a year? That would at least tell part of the story.

[Cypress Hill]

Listening to some people, you get the impression the Thai economy would fall on its side if the expats and the pensioners (NOT retirees - there's a big difference) disappeared.

Needless to say, they're talking BS .

Let's get this clear - the TOURIST dollar - that is foreigners who come, enjoy themselves then piss off home - is worth far, far more to the Thai economy than the pension income of a few old geezers and a handful of offshore workers who tear up Soi Cowboy/Nana a couple of nights on their "off" rotation.

Contrary to what the usual suspects would have us believe, a LOT of these retirees can't manage the 65,000 baht monthly income and are forced to resort to simply borrowing 800K off retirement visa facilitators in order to make their savings books qualify.

[Thakkar]

"Their poverty is their problem."

Indeed, it *is* their problem. But that doesn't mean we aren't gaining from its existence.

T

Gain is subjective. By employing people you are doing your bit. If you pay minimum and comply with the law, (in terms of employing domestic staff), you are doing more than 99% of Thais.

Thailand could have gone in any number of paths and directions to benefit the lower parts of society. They didn't. That is Thailand's cross to bear.

Again, agreed that it is "Thailand's cross to bear"

That doesn't negate the fact that we are getting the benefit of their poverty which allows us to pay these ridiculously low wages.

T

Well, if you were earning Thai wages you wouldn't be able to afford to employ them, so, that could be reversed.

Thailand is benefiting by the wealth afforded u.

You keep looking at it from the point of what "they" get out of "us"

But we gain as well. For example, If I were to live my current $2,500/month lifestyle in, say, London, it would cost me $5,000 a month. Right away, I save $2500 a month. An added bonus is better weather and less surly people.

Now, does all of that $2,500 that I spend go to benefit Thailand? No, because some it I claw back through the subsidies I enjoy whenever I fill up my gas tank, eat rice and use the roads, etc. I'm sure there is a net benefit to Thailand. But we aren't here to do them any favors out of the goodness of our hearts. We are here to take advantage of the weather, the friendliness and the lower cost of living. Let's not act as if we are their great benefactors in any way or form. We are here of our own free will for our own selfish needs and wants.

T

Well why not. There are two sides to the deal, and foreigners do not make up the majority of activity in the economy. All foreigners can do is comply with the law.

The legal rules could be raised, and I don't see any difference from a foreigner being able to have a maid to a Thai being able to have a maid.

The rules are set up to help Thais benefit from other Thais not foreigners. The wages are set to keep Thai businesses in existence not to provide a living for Thais. I truly beleive that the system is set up to benefit the rich over the poor in Thailand.

So, no one is stopping you paying twice or three times the minimum to your maid. Treat her well and she will be part of the family forever.

When I left, my mind and gardener cried like my own family and we are still in touch now.

My point is that you and I *also* benefit from the system as it now stands. We pay market rate for services received. We are not doing anybody any special favors. My original message for for those perennial posters who harp on about how expats are gods gift to Thailand because they spend some money here.

T

T

[4evermaat]

You have to remember that the majority of the improvements that a foreigner makes is ultimately to improve the household/community as a whole. Can I really take the house with me if I leave? Some of the appliances I could take out, but most of them will stay in place. I know this before making the improvements, but I buy them anyway because they offer massive utility in terms of time savings or convenience vs not having them (like washing machine, water heater, large refrigerator). I cannot take them with me when I die, and the next person can use them if they want to.

The OP has a point, it would be nice to get some hard data. Some survey would have to be done on expats who have stayed. Someone also mentioned the skill sets that foreigners bring. You can definitely see a clear difference in quality services where foreigners are involved vs designing a service solely for Thais. We tend to think about the future a bit and shy away from doing things 'the cheapest way possible' if we can help it. It doesn't have to be lavish, but even the 2nd cheapest or 3rd cheapest option can add massive value in terms of avoiding re-work or breakdown later down the road.

[mikemellow]

Talk about not a clue. No one posting here has even a basic knowledge of economics 101. New money coming into a country from outside.. for example from a farang getting SS from the US and spending that money here in Thailand or a Brit on a pension doing the same has a much greater impact by far on a third world economy like Thailand than numerious regular Thai people doing their jobs driving a taxi or clerking at the 7-11. Thailand has only advanced econimically because it is lucky to be a tourist destination.

[1FinickyOne]

I don't have the numbers but the formula would be to find the number of expats and then guess at an average income or pension and multiply out…

so, if 500,000 expats living here and the average income is 75,000 a month just multiply out - it would just be guesstimate as many spend more or less…

that should get you close.

[AlexRRR]

They exsited before us and they will exsit after we leave

[chumpy]

.

For the penurious tight bastids who worship money above all else, their is no placating them. No matter what the price, it's too much and all must bow down to them when they open their wallets. Most of them are here because "you don't have to tip". How much hateful, begrudging, pinchy pinchy baht do they contribute? To the GNP? Spit. Practically nothing.

Thailand could ban tourism tomorrow and barely hiccup. 6% of the economy gone? Who would miss it? They would make it back in 2 years.

Thais have their own culture, books, art, music, dance. Well established agriculture, factory, wholesale, retail and international trade sectors as well as tons of resources. Thais have a lot going on.

That's why so many cowboys show up, look around for 10 minutes and declare the place their own private plum, ripe for the plucking. "What this place needs is another beer bar." How many...? 10 a week on TVF alone with "I wanna open a _____________ business."

Whatever "IT" is, Thailand has "IT" and thousands of farang are scratching and clawing to work here, live here, invest here.

They really don't need tourism at all.

'nuff said

~

Speak for yourself,maybe the facts should be checked first,tourism makes up about 20 percent of GDP,10 percent of that comes directly from the tourists and the other 10 per cent comes from related things such as restaurants,the construction industry etc.It also brings in foreign currency,plus the cash that is generated by tourism doesn't require contant investment to obtain,not like for example in the car industry where lots of things need to be imnported in order to make the end product,the tourists just come in and spend,the infrastructure largely already exists.

How much the expats contribute is anybody's guess but I think it's quite a lot,just look at the real estate business here in Phuket and elsewhere,not to mention the contributions made to families,wives etc etc.

Compared to what for example the Chinese are spending it's in any case a hell of a lot.

[thairastawoman]

I just know that everytime I buy a 5 million baht car I pute 2+ millions of tax in the local economy or in the pocket of the corrupted armyboys...

[razer]

It is fair to say that every single expat living here put about 30,000-40,000 baht a month on average into the economy and of course families put more into the economy ... every month. Expats working here (legally) pay taxes ... every month.

[duanebigsby]

But...but...all the 30 baht meals I buy, where would all the vendors be without me? They charge fellow Thais 25 baht for the same meal, man. I'm the one they make the bulk of their profits from.

T

so 50 or a 100 Thais spend 25 baht each and one farang spends 30 baht and they make the majority profit off you?

[Thakkar]

But...but...all the 30 baht meals I buy, where would all the vendors be without me? They charge fellow Thais 25 baht for the same meal, man. I'm the one they make the bulk of their profits from.

T

so 50 or a 100 Thais spend 25 baht each and one farang spends 30 baht and they make the majority profit off you?

EVERYONE knows that expat bahts are better than local bahts, and that expat poop don't stink.

T

[duanebigsby]

It is fair to say that every single expat living here put about 30,000-40,000 baht a month on average into the economy and of course families put more into the economy ... every month. Expats working here (legally) pay taxes ... every month.

[/quote

Taxes are almost negligible.

The guesstimates as to how many foreigners live in Thailand on the web range from 2 to 4 hundred thousand.

With your monthly expenditure estimate, we contribute maybe 1 to 2% to the economy.