Leaving a Government school on "bad terms" ?

[MaiPenRai3]

I am sorry, but ethics, or professional ethics are almost by definition an intrinsic attribute.

Op is not being ethical professionally. Saying "well, they are worse" is the exact opposite of what profesional ethics is all about.

He or she can cut and run if they want, but make no mistake it is neither profesional nor ethical.

For the record, I never said "they are worse". It is an implication you have drawn based upon the replies of others. It isn't a "cut and run" either. In a professional environment there would be no question about October being paid as it has been earned. As far as "ethical" concerns, we are way beyond that in my circumstance. A person can only take being shat upon for so long, then she has taken all the shat she will stand for.

Sounds pretty clear cut to me. If you did the right thing they would screw you over anyway. You know the individual school and its ways of dealings more than any poster here. My only concern for you is that you may need a reference for your next job in the UK. Because my previous school did me over I wrote a letter of recommendation saying how great I was and made them print on headed paper and sign it. If I was in England I would have made a legal claim against them for not paying me the final two months but I knew here it's a waste of time.

There have been many documented cases of foreign teachers taking schools to labor court and winning.

Cant believe you are bragging about writing your own letter of recommendation. lol.

I cant believe that people continue to condone this childish and selfish behaviour.

You to be respected as a teacher, then model the behavior that you expect. Take the high road and be mature.

[BruceMangosteen]

"There have been many documented cases of foreign teachers taking schools to labor court and winning."

To repeat, despite the claim above.....Government schools are specifically exempted by law from paying severance. So any "documented" cases you refer to must be referring to private schools. Please make yourself clear. Thank you.

[BruceMangosteen]

I cant believe that people continue to condone this childish and selfish behaviour.

You to be respected as a teacher, then model the behavior that you expect. Take the high road and be mature.

Again, lets be clear as to your inference....are you saying that we as teachers in a strange land should give a notice and forego earned wages so we can be looked upon as being mature and "model" the behavior we would expect from others mirroring our own background and countries? Thank you.

[Scott]

Private schools are exempt from paying severance pay. At least that is what is reported by many members according to the Private school act.

[MaiPenRai3]

"There have been many documented cases of foreign teachers taking schools to labor court and winning."

To repeat, despite the claim above.....Government schools are specifically exempted by law from paying severance. So any "documented" cases you refer to must be referring to private schools. Please make yourself clear. Thank you.

Governent schools and private schoold mate. Wrongful dismissals, failure to abide by contract, unpaid earnings, etc. most settle out of court. Usually threatening to go to the MOL is enough to make unscupulous Thai schools think twice. The schools that do this think that you cant or wont take the time, money and energy to pursue it. Usually its not worth the time, money or energy so they know they can get away with it. You really gonna hire a lawyer and fight for months in labour court over 30,000 baht?! Edited September 13, 2014 by MaiPenRai3

[alien365]

I am sorry, but ethics, or professional ethics are almost by definition an intrinsic attribute.

Op is not being ethical professionally. Saying "well, they are worse" is the exact opposite of what profesional ethics is all about.

He or she can cut and run if they want, but make no mistake it is neither profesional nor ethical.

For the record, I never said "they are worse". It is an implication you have drawn based upon the replies of others. It isn't a "cut and run" either. In a professional environment there would be no question about October being paid as it has been earned. As far as "ethical" concerns, we are way beyond that in my circumstance. A person can only take being shat upon for so long, then she has taken all the shat she will stand for.

Sounds pretty clear cut to me. If you did the right thing they would screw you over anyway. You know the individual school and its ways of dealings more than any poster here. My only concern for you is that you may need a reference for your next job in the UK. Because my previous school did me over I wrote a letter of recommendation saying how great I was and made them print on headed paper and sign it. If I was in England I would have made a legal claim against them for not paying me the final two months but I knew here it's a waste of time.

There have been many documented cases of foreign teachers taking schools to labor court and winning.

Cant believe you are bragging about writing your own letter of recommendation. lol.

I cant believe that people continue to condone this childish and selfish behaviour.

You to be respected as a teacher, then model the behavior that you expect. Take the high road and be mature.

I know in England it's very easy to make a claim. Here I expect it would add five years to me and would need money in order to make the claim paying solicitors fees etc.

Regarding my recommendation letter I have to sigh when mentioning it. I know a reference is important and also know no one in the school would be able to or want to write this letter for me anyway so I had to be pro active to get what I needed.

It's a shame we have to be unprofessional, being a role model by sacrificing our salary is unfair and if you're working in a government school you're not likely to be rolling in the benjamins so you need the money you are due. Money talks here I'm afraid. It's the only way some will listen. I don't know the op but I respect that he is doing what he feels needs to be done to get what he is fairly entitled to. As I mentioned in an earlier post I wouldn't dream of leaving my current job like this because they are fair and well organised. I treat each situation on its own merits.

[MaiPenRai3]

I cant believe that people continue to condone this childish and selfish behaviour.

You to be respected as a teacher, then model the behavior that you expect. Take the high road and be mature.

Again, lets be clear as to your inference....are you saying that we as teachers in a strange land should give a notice and forego earned wages so we can be looked upon as being mature and "model" the behavior we would expect from others mirroring our own background and countries? Thank you.

Im saying that if you are mistreated by a Thai school (or anyone) going down to their level will solve nothing. Its childish and unprofessional. Practice what you preach.

[MaiPenRai3]

I am sorry, but ethics, or professional ethics are almost by definition an intrinsic attribute.

Op is not being ethical professionally. Saying "well, they are worse" is the exact opposite of what profesional ethics is all about.

He or she can cut and run if they want, but make no mistake it is neither profesional nor ethical.

For the record, I never said "they are worse". It is an implication you have drawn based upon the replies of others. It isn't a "cut and run" either. In a professional environment there would be no question about October being paid as it has been earned. As far as "ethical" concerns, we are way beyond that in my circumstance. A person can only take being shat upon for so long, then she has taken all the shat she will stand for.

Sounds pretty clear cut to me. If you did the right thing they would screw you over anyway. You know the individual school and its ways of dealings more than any poster here. My only concern for you is that you may need a reference for your next job in the UK. Because my previous school did me over I wrote a letter of recommendation saying how great I was and made them print on headed paper and sign it. If I was in England I would have made a legal claim against them for not paying me the final two months but I knew here it's a waste of time.

There have been many documented cases of foreign teachers taking schools to labor court and winning.

Cant believe you are bragging about writing your own letter of recommendation. lol.

I cant believe that people continue to condone this childish and selfish behaviour.

You to be respected as a teacher, then model the behavior that you expect. Take the high road and be mature.

I know in England it's very easy to make a claim. Here I expect it would add five years to me and would need money in order to make the claim paying solicitors fees etc.

Regarding my recommendation letter I have to sigh when mentioning it. I know a reference is important and also know no one in the school would be able to or want to write this letter for me anyway so I had to be pro active to get what I needed.

It's a shame we have to be unprofessional, being a role model by sacrificing our salary is unfair and if you're working in a government school you're not likely to be rolling in the benjamins so you need the money you are due. Money talks here I'm afraid. It's the only way some will listen. I don't know the op but I respect that he is doing what he feels needs to be done to get what he is fairly entitled to. As I mentioned in an earlier post I wouldn't dream of leaving my current job like this because they are fair and well organised. I treat each situation on its own merits.

You dont HAVE to be unprofessional. There are good and bad schools/people everwhere. Nobody said it was easy doing the right thing. If you (collective you) leave without notice, you are no better than the school and admin you speak so lowly of. 2 wrongs dont make a right.

But at least you have found one of the mythical good schools that, according to some posters, dont exist because they speak in absolutes.

Edited September 13, 2014 by MaiPenRai3

[alien365]

I am sorry, but ethics, or professional ethics are almost by definition an intrinsic attribute.

Op is not being ethical professionally. Saying "well, they are worse" is the exact opposite of what profesional ethics is all about.

He or she can cut and run if they want, but make no mistake it is neither profesional nor ethical.

For the record, I never said "they are worse". It is an implication you have drawn based upon the replies of others. It isn't a "cut and run" either. In a professional environment there would be no question about October being paid as it has been earned. As far as "ethical" concerns, we are way beyond that in my circumstance. A person can only take being shat upon for so long, then she has taken all the shat she will stand for.

Sounds pretty clear cut to me. If you did the right thing they would screw you over anyway. You know the individual school and its ways of dealings more than any poster here. My only concern for you is that you may need a reference for your next job in the UK. Because my previous school did me over I wrote a letter of recommendation saying how great I was and made them print on headed paper and sign it. If I was in England I would have made a legal claim against them for not paying me the final two months but I knew here it's a waste of time.

There have been many documented cases of foreign teachers taking schools to labor court and winning.

Cant believe you are bragging about writing your own letter of recommendation. lol.

I cant believe that people continue to condone this childish and selfish behaviour.

You to be respected as a teacher, then model the behavior that you expect. Take the high road and be mature.

I know in England it's very easy to make a claim. Here I expect it would add five years to me and would need money in order to make the claim paying solicitors fees etc.

Regarding my recommendation letter I have to sigh when mentioning it. I know a reference is important and also know no one in the school would be able to or want to write this letter for me anyway so I had to be pro active to get what I needed.

It's a shame we have to be unprofessional, being a role model by sacrificing our salary is unfair and if you're working in a government school you're not likely to be rolling in the benjamins so you need the money you are due. Money talks here I'm afraid. It's the only way some will listen. I don't know the op but I respect that he is doing what he feels needs to be done to get what he is fairly entitled to. As I mentioned in an earlier post I wouldn't dream of leaving my current job like this because they are fair and well organised. I treat each situation on its own merits.

You dont HAVE to be unprofessional. There are good and bad schools/people everwhere. Nobody said it was easy doing the right thing. If you (collective you) leave without notice, you are no better than the school and admin you speak so lowly of. 2 wrongs dont make a right.

But at least you have found one of the mythical good schools that, according to some posters, dont exist because they speak in absolutes.

Two wrongs don't make a right I agree. But to survive sometimes you have to look after yourself as no one else will. I went two months no pay meaning I couldn't afford to live at that point gradually depleting my savings and the school was 60k better off going towards a new Mercedes no doubt. I came out of that financially the loser when I had done everything right or expected of me (loss of income 60k, 2months spend 50k, Visa run, wp etc 10k). That's just unfair but a lesson learned in life. The op just sounds fully aware of this 'game' at his poorly managed school where he feels it's guaranteed there would be a similar outcome if he played by the rules.

But yes, good schools do exist, of the NES friends I have here most are happy and feel valued. I've learnt from my first job here and wiser from it. I don't envy the op being in this position, it can't be easy doing something you know is moraly wrong to just get what you are entitled to unless you've been pushed to breaking point when you simply don't care anymore.

Good luck to the op anyway and let's hope the situation improves so that others don't feel like this is the only way to get paid when going separate ways.

[meand]

Of course it has bearing on the conversation.

Many of you are whinging about your pay and treatment, yet you can walk into a job on the first day and make 3/4ths of what someone who has been there for 30 years is making.

Sounds like you are treated better than you deserve judging by some of these comments.

You're wrong. It has absolutely no bearing. As I said, if thais decided they wanted to work for free, or take an 80% pay cut, that has nothing to do with me. I took the job based on certain salary arrangements, what other people are paid has absolutely no consequence, so no need to bring it up.

[aarontendo]

Yeah to be fair though 30k baht isn't even enough to get most of us outta bed in the morning. Don't let that stop your wreck of an argument though, Farang

[Colabamumbai]

Sadly it's the actions of people like the O.P. that have caused the situation he or she describes regarding payment or non payment situations.

Teachers are supposed to be ethical people are they not?

And are schools not suppose to be ethical also? Instead of cheating foreigners for things that are laid out in the contract, not supplying paperwork for Non B visas and Work Permits, or just deciding not to pay them their last weeks wages, it works both ways. You can get rid of them before they get rid of you. I have had my share of them.

[brubakertx]

I think Thai government schools are a joke!

BUT...I think you should just finish your contract, and then go do something more enjoyable.

[Neeranam]

"There have been many documented cases of foreign teachers taking schools to labor court and winning."

To repeat, despite the claim above.....Government schools are specifically exempted by law from paying severance. So any "documented" cases you refer to must be referring to private schools. Please make yourself clear. Thank you.

Not true - maybe you are thinking of government universities?

[farang000999]

Yeah to be fair though 30k baht isn't even enough to get most of us outta bed in the morning. Don't let that stop your wreck of an argument though, Farang

huh? many in this thread are complaining about how those running public schools treat them. they claim they get no respect and the schools dont give a <deleted> about them, the students hate them, etc... however, they are still paid a very high salary by Thai standards considering that most of these teachers do not even have the proper requirments to teach at an international school.

you can talk all you want about being disrespected and taken for granted but at the end of the day you are still making 30k baht a month which is a lot higher than what a thai teacher makes coming in on day one.

[farang000999]

there is probably more to this story that has made Bruce so bitter. Probably a lass involved somewhere. There always is.

[siampolee]

Colabamumbai post # 72.

And are schools not suppose to be ethical also? Instead of cheating foreigners for things that are laid out in the contract, not supplying paperwork for Non B visas and Work Permits, or just deciding not to pay them their last weeks wages, it works both ways. You can get rid of them before they get rid of you. I have had my share of them.

Would your experiences be due to perhaps the schools who would accept you and your qualifications and experience?

In all my 23 years here I have never encountered a bad school, mind you I was in the international sector and in the upper end of the Thai private school. sector.

[pomchop]

If you have made such a small impression on your students that they will forget you in 30 minutes I can understand why the school isn't exactly supportive of your efforts.

Perhaps you simply are NOT a good teacher? No shame in that. Teaching is a tough job. Most all of us certainly remember our GOOD teachers for the rest of our lives.

[BruceMangosteen]

If you have made such a small impression on your students that they will forget you in 30 minutes I can understand why the school isn't exactly supportive of your efforts.

Perhaps you simply are NOT a good teacher? No shame in that. Teaching is a tough job. Most all of us certainly remember our GOOD teachers for the rest of our lives.

Yet another personal attack. Don't you guys and gals get tired of getting your giggles from attacking with the defense of a keyboard which hides who you are? As I mentioned earlier, try it on the street some day and see what happens!

[BruceMangosteen]

In all my 23 years here I have never encountered a bad school, mind you I was in the international sector and in the upper end of the Thai private school. sector.

That's not the context of our discussion. Not sure what an "International Sector" is but we all know the "upper end" Thai private schools are essential western schools transplanted here and for the very few Thai's who can afford them. It isn't applicable. No "upper end" school would attempt to cheat teachers out of money due them. The reputation of doing same would destroy them. Teachers would get word and their booth at the job fairs would remain empty.

[BruceMangosteen]

there is probably more to this story that has made Bruce so bitter. Probably a lass involved somewhere. There always is.

Who said I was "bitter"? And now we have to introduce someone's sexuality into the discussion along with race accusations? Where does it end? Wasn't I clear?

Two choices:

1. Leave, going back to the UK without giving a notice to the school, and collect October's salary which is earned and due to me.

2. Give a notice now that I'm not returning for the second term, and be cheated out of the October salary.

3. Give notice and take the chance they will be professional and pay what is due me isn't a choice. So it's only the two above labeled 1. and 2..

Sexuality isn't a factor. Race actually might be but not really the point of it all. My race isn't going to work in my favor in number 3. above. If anything, it will seal the deal of being cheated. The fact I have been lied to in the past does contribute.

[BruceMangosteen]

"There have been many documented cases of foreign teachers taking schools to labor court and winning."

To repeat, despite the claim above.....Government schools are specifically exempted by law from paying severance. So any "documented" cases you refer to must be referring to private schools. Please make yourself clear. Thank you.

Not true - maybe you are thinking of government universities?

There has not been one example, not one, of a Government school paying severance to a foreigner or a Thai. The law specifically and intentionally exempts them from it. I'm not talking about Universities. I'm talking about Thai Government Schools including all I guess, primary on up to Universities. Cite one example. You can't and won't because they don't exist.

Edited September 16, 2014 by BruceMangosteen

[siampolee]

Would your experiences be due to perhaps the schools who would accept you and your qualifications and experience?

In all my 23 years here I have never encountered a bad school, mind you I was in the international sector and in the upper end of the Thai private school. sector.

Bruce when you use a quote would you please use said quote in full so as not to distort the comment to fit your agenda?

BruceMangosteen post # 80.

That's not the context of our discussion. Not sure what an "International Sector" is but we all know the "upper end" Thai private schools are essential western schools transplanted here and for the very few Thai's who can afford them. It isn't applicable. No "upper end" school would attempt to cheat teachers out of money due them. The reputation of doing same would destroy them. Teachers would get word and their booth at the job fairs would remain empty.

[pomchop]

If you have made such a small impression on your students that they will forget you in 30 minutes I can understand why the school isn't exactly supportive of your efforts.

Perhaps you simply are NOT a good teacher? No shame in that. Teaching is a tough job. Most all of us certainly remember our GOOD teachers for the rest of our lives.

Yet another personal attack. Don't you guys and gals get tired of getting your giggles from attacking with the defense of a keyboard which hides who you are? As I mentioned earlier, try it on the street some day and see what happens!

Nothing personal about it. Just suggesting per your own words that you might want to ask yourself why you think your students will forget you in 30 minutes....as I said, teaching is a tough job and not everyone is cut out for it...from reading all of your posts in this thread I would say perhaps you might want to find another line of work.

[BruceMangosteen]

Nothing personal about it. Just suggesting per your own words that you might want to ask yourself why you think your students will forget you in 30 minutes....as I said, teaching is a tough job and not everyone is cut out for it...from reading all of your posts in this thread I would say perhaps you might want to find another line of work.

Again, save the attacks for the balcony where you can toss your peanut shells down below without a worry about being caught.

I say that in complete honesty because of the age groups I work with. New phones and human development are what they care about, not farang teachers. It's an evolving thing, you know?, growing up....

[BruceMangosteen]

Bruce when you use a quote would you please use said quote in full so as not to distort the comment to fit your agenda?

I don't like wasting people's time with complete quotes and/or I only want to reply to part of their remarks. The purpose isn't to "distort" their comments to fit my "agenda". If you ever feel a correction of context is in order, please mate, post it and I will acknowledge it and rest assured, it was unintentional. Your first attempt at this was, BTW, a failure. It was and is clear to almost everyone I and the OP(reply) was talking about "real" International schools in Thailand where they recruit worldwide etc..

[siampolee]

Bruce Mangosteen post # 86

I don't like wasting people's time with complete quotes and/or I only want to reply to part of their remarks. The purpose isn't to "distort" their comments to fit my "agenda". If you ever feel a correction of context is in order, please mate, post it and I will acknowledge it and rest assured, it was unintentional. Your first attempt at this was, BTW, a failure. It was and is clear to almost everyone I and the OP(reply) was talking about "real" International schools in Thailand where they recruit worldwide etc..

Perhaps the comment you make concerning recruitment is a little off of target, there is a network of teachers here who know each other and have done so on a professional basis over the years thus do not think that International Schools recruit just outside of Thailand.

If you require a link and you consider that your professional and educational background and experience factors are on par with those schools requirement P.M. me and I'll give you a link .

Salary levels start at around a hundred thousand baht a month plus other benefits.

[BruceMangosteen]

Bruce Mangosteen post # 86

I don't like wasting people's time with complete quotes and/or I only want to reply to part of their remarks. The purpose isn't to "distort" their comments to fit my "agenda". If you ever feel a correction of context is in order, please mate, post it and I will acknowledge it and rest assured, it was unintentional. Your first attempt at this was, BTW, a failure. It was and is clear to almost everyone I and the OP(reply) was talking about "real" International schools in Thailand where they recruit worldwide etc..

Perhaps the comment you make concerning recruitment is a little off of target, there is a network of teachers here who know each other and have done so on a professional basis over the years thus do not think that International Schools recruit just outside of Thailand.

If you require a link and you consider that your professional and educational background and experience factors are on par with those schools requirement P.M. me and I'll give you a link .

Salary levels start at around a hundred thousand baht a month plus other benefits.

I didn't mean just outside of Thailand. As you know, there are job fairs worldwide which some Thai schools attend to recruit. Yes of course there is an in country network between the schools and the teachers I guess. I don't need the link but thanks for the offer! Good morning.

[WonnabeBiker]

Private schools are exempt from paying severance pay. At least that is what is reported by many members according to the Private school act.

Not true! I got severance from a private school and it was a Labour Court thing (try taking a government institution to Labour Court. That won't work). Need I show the deposit of 80,000 Baht into my savings account? Can do, if you insist. I swear this is true!

[meand]

Yeah to be fair though 30k baht isn't even enough to get most of us outta bed in the morning. Don't let that stop your wreck of an argument though, Farang

huh? many in this thread are complaining about how those running public schools treat them. they claim they get no respect and the schools dont give a <deleted> about them, the students hate them, etc... however, they are still paid a very high salary by Thai standards considering that most of these teachers do not even have the proper requirments to teach at an international school.

you can talk all you want about being disrespected and taken for granted but at the end of the day you are still making 30k baht a month which is a lot higher than what a thai teacher makes coming in on day one.

So what. Who cares. Thais don't rally or know how to leverage themselves. Why in the world would I make that my own problem. The really ludicrous thing is that 30 isn't even worth getting out of bed for, then people like you say things like this. What you are saying is just so off.... Like I should be happy to be making 50 cents an hour next to some Indian workers who are making a dollar per week. Get it though your head, it does not matter what Thais are making. You're a joke and you need to get a clue, peoples lives depend on this stuff, and people like you make it a hellava lot worse. Edited September 18, 2014 by meand