Can They Fire this Teacher?

[gyrosman]

They are not firing him but not renewing his contract, big difference. I worked three years at a school and my last semester I had to teach 7 subjects no English and so I refuse to go to English camps, teach police after school hours, hospital staff and other non-school activites and especially for free,so, my contract was not renewed.

The school does not need to prove their point, you stay or go. As for the students, yea, they get to dislike you the more time you teach them because as a teacher you enforce rules like stop copying homework and doing it durinng class time, no cell phones, boys playing with their girlfriends in class etc... The older the students get the more Facebook mentality and lack of drive to be someone.

[Scott]

No, it is not a matter of the contract not being renewed. The contract is in effect until the end of April. I have been involved in the termination of a number of employees, but the warnings were specific and involved reasonable (and sometimes legal) consequences to the teacher's action. With those that they simply want to get rid of, it's usually a matter of waiting until the contract is up and not renewing it.

Many schools bank on the fact that most teachers simply do not have the time or resources to pursue a legal battle -- there are too many problems with finding a new job, keeping a visa or work permit etc.. This person, if he decides to pursue a case, have all the time in the world to do so.

Staying at the school is not really an option. If he was so bad, why did he stay for so many years?

At any rate, he will need to decide what to do. Basically, I just haven't seen too many people let go in the middle of a contract without some justification.

[mikecat]

All employers including private schools are obliged to conform to labour laws including severence pay. Some schools will get a call from the labour office and pay straight away and others will ignore the call and end up fighting in court.

If I was the teacher I would be contacting the Labour office.

The school wants you gone, theres no point in fighting it, why would you want to stay anyway. However, I would be sure to make them pay whay I am rightly entitled to.

[meand]

This person is thinking of pursuing the situation with the Ministry of Labor. I don't know that he would wish to continue to work at the school.

The assertion that the students don't like him is false. The students were ask "What don't you like about Teacher X". The point is rather clear that the Headmistress and the Assistant do not like the teacher.

I think the teacher is contemplating 'wrongful termination'. When he asked if the school was following proper procedures in the termination, the reply was "We don't care about the Ministry of Labor".

The person asked me for advice and I am not sure. I have terminated people, but I've always made sure there was cause and that it could be verified.

The teacher has already lost his case. He may be able to win the completion of his contract, but that may be to the end of Oct. Otherwise, non renewal of contract is the discretion of the school. It matters not if the situation is fair, teacher evaluation is so flexible as to fit the school's needs.

This man should take a walk and forget it.

That's not true. If you employ somebody for ten years, and each year they get a contractual raise for example, you can't just fire them at the end of a contract unless it is some sort of seasonal project work, like construction of a building. It is not simply just up to their discretion. In the end though, people are going to believe whatever they want. Edited September 14, 2014 by meand

[onlycw]

Sure they can fire him. anyone can be fired - no reason needed. Instead, there is a certain protocol after an employee survived the first 120 days (probationary period).

The termination has to coincide with the payment cycle. Depending on the length of service, this will be very expensive for the school indeed! TBH, I forgot the data, but it's 5 or 6 months' salary plus payment in lieu of notice period... Bet they haven't counted on him fighting back (or paying that much, if any).

Private school => Labour court. It's free. and there is information on how this works.

All he needs is show up with all the documents he has, maybe in duplicate or triplicate, with each page signed.

They can't claim he had to be fired on the spot, can they?

Labour court is free. They will set an arbitration hearing and the court appointed attorney will argue his case and try really hard to settle this at this stage.

They can dismiss the guy - but it's gonna cost them dearly.

For those who work at a government school, you need to take the school to Administrative Court. There is a 2% fee of what you are claiming payable upfront. and you have to get someone to write the complaint or writ in Thai

[onlycw]

The school is a private schools and the private schools are exempt from paying severance.

Excuse me?!? I've received it from a private school! Please verify this as a fact.

[Scott]

Congratulations on receiving severance. Many people have received a settlement but it's not severance. Numerous posters on this forum have gone to the Court and been told they aren't eligible.

A very close friend of mine has acted as an interpreter for a person suing a school. The person was REFUSED severance and told he was not eligible. He was, however, given his entire salary for the contract period for unfair dismissal based on the fact that the school had not followed the procedures in terminating him properly (in this case, no written warnings).

But the issue of severance is a whole different topic.

[WonnabeBiker]

A contract in Thailand means nothing. He has the right to fight them but wont get far. Walk out, pull the door closed and forget about them. Start fresh somewhere where people will show appreciation. They will be the losers. Typical TL!!

Someone who was with the school for "6-7 years" will get a sizeable amount in severance. How can you advocate to walk away from 6 months' pay?!?

[Sampradaya]

A contract in Thailand means nothing. He has the right to fight them but wont get far. Walk out, pull the door closed and forget about them. Start fresh somewhere where people will show appreciation. They will be the losers. Typical TL!!

Someone who was with the school for "6-7 years" will get a sizeable amount in severance. How can you advocate to walk away from 6 months' pay?!?

Because this is Thailand. A contract means nothing. Personal experience.

But why attack me. You sound like an abusive person!

[WonnabeBiker]

This person is thinking of pursuing the situation with the Ministry of Labor.

I've got news for you and him. They don't give a hoot! Had a Thai friend make calls and try and get some help. It was a waste of time. OTOH, Labour Court has worked like a dream. Your friend won't even need an interpreter.

Notice period? I had 3 months' written in my contract. In that case they would need a compelling reason to fire him on the spot. Being late is a joke, given the common practie of falsifying arrival times when teachers sign in. First day at this school, I entered the actual time and caused problems for folks who would come late but then lie about it habitually.

Are government schools really excempt? Wish someone would know. Maybe someone can "ask the lawyer" here on TV?

[lostinisaan]

This person is thinking of pursuing the situation with the Ministry of Labor.

I've got news for you and him. They don't give a hoot! Had a Thai friend make calls and try and get some help. It was a waste of time. OTOH, Labour Court has worked like a dream. Your friend won't even need an interpreter.

Notice period? I had 3 months' written in my contract. In that case they would need a compelling reason to fire him on the spot. Being late is a joke, given the common practie of falsifying arrival times when teachers sign in. First day at this school, I entered the actual time and caused problems for folks who would come late but then lie about it habitually.

Are government schools really excempt? Wish someone would know. Maybe someone can "ask the lawyer" here on TV?

Indeed , a very good point. where are the lawyers when you really need them? Guess we know the answer already......

[Scott]

If he decides to pursue any legal recourse, he won't need an interpreter. He is 100% bilingual. He reads Thai well, but has some trouble writing Thai well, although his Master's was done in a Thai program and his Thesis was written in Thai, so I am assuming it's an acceptable standard.

He also has a somewhat litigious background, I believe there have been a few lawsuits between family members.

As for asking a lawyer about severance pay, most of them are only aware of the Thai labor laws and not the Private School Act. Unfortunately, I had links to old threads and the actual law, but when my computer crashed I lost that information.

[jpinx]

To be honest - this is a situation where mathematics should be allowed to rule. If cost of lawyer, court fees, time spent chasing evidence, etc, all adds up to more than half the potential award - forget it. I say half because people always tend to over estimate the award and under-estimate the costs of getting it. Do the maths before anything.

Then consider how it's going to look on his CV when he applies for the next job -- "Reason for most recent termination" needs to be nice - not litigious.

[meand]

To be honest - this is a situation where mathematics should be allowed to rule. If cost of lawyer, court fees, time spent chasing evidence, etc, all adds up to more than half the potential award - forget it. I say half because people always tend to over estimate the award and under-estimate the costs of getting it. Do the maths before anything.

Then consider how it's going to look on his CV when he applies for the next job -- "Reason for most recent termination" needs to be nice - not litigious.

I agree with you, and I suppose if I was an employer I would feel that way. It gets you thinking though all that reference crap is based on the assumption that the employers were on the up and up. A totally erroneous assumption. I don't think it's even an issue for a Thai teacher, you get a job here reference or not, employment gap or not.

[inbangkok]

My only guess would be that if he is a Thai national, he might have a chance to make something out of this situation. If not, probably not much he can do.

[Ijustwannateach]

As far as I am aware, Thai labour law applies to all workers in Thailand, even those without contracts (that is partly whom it is designed to protect).

While claims have been made that 'this or that' type of school is "exempt' from severance requirements, I have never seen this verified legally, and in most cases where schools have been challenged (a letter from a lawyer clears heads wonderfully) the required severance is provided.

Your mileage may vary, but do consult a lawyer.

[Expat Brad]

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If he has been employed for 6 or 7 years, then they are going to have to pay him a suitable severence, it would certainly be more than one month salary.

No offence to the person in question but he is not entitled to severance simply because he, like all teachers are contracted annually.

[Slip]

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If he has been employed for 6 or 7 years, then they are going to have to pay him a suitable severence, it would certainly be more than one month salary.

No offence to the person in question but he is not entitled to severance simply because he, like all teachers are contracted annually.

Chapter 11 - Compensation Payments

Section 118. A boss shall pay compensation to an employee whose employment has been terminated as follows:

• (l)An employee who has worked consecutively for a full one hundred and twenty days but less than one full year shall be paid not less than thirty days the last wage rate or not less than the wages for the last thirty days of work in respect of an employee who is paid a wage on a piece work basis.
• (2)An employee who has worked consecutively for one full year but not a full three years shall be paid at least an amount equivalent to ninety days’ pay at his or her most recent wage rate or not less than the wages earned for the last ninety days of work in respect of an employee who is paid a wage on te basis of piece work.
• (3)An employee who has worked consecutively for a full three years but not a full six years shall be paid an amount at least equivalent to one hundred and eighty days’ pay at his or her most recent wage rate, or not less than the wages earned for the last one hundred and eighty days of work in respect of an employee who is paid a wage on the basis of piece work.
• (4)An employee who has worked consecutively for a full six years but not a full ten years shall be paid an amount equivalent to at least two hundred and forty days’ pay at his or her most recent wage rate or not less than the wages earned for the last two hundred and forty days of work in respect of an employee who is paid a wage on the basis of piece work.
• (5)An employee who has worked consecutively for a ten full years or more shall be paid an amount equivalent to at least three hundred days at his or her most recent wage rate, or not less than the wages for the last three hundred days of work in respect of an employee who is paid a wage on the basis of piece work.

Termination of employment under this Section means any action by which the boss does not allow the employee to continue to do work and does not pay wages to the employee, regardless of whether the cause is the cessation of the employment agreement or another cause, and the meaning also covers cases where an employee does not do work and is not paid wages because the boss is unable to continue business operations.

The provisions in paragraph one shall not apply to employees who have a fixed term of employment and whose employment is terminated in accordance at the end of the specified term.

Fixed term employment under paragraph three may be effected in respect of employment for work in specific projects which are not the normal work of the boss’s business or trade, and which must have a definite beginning and end of employment, or for seasonal work for which employment is effected during the period of such seasons, to the extent that the work must be completed within a period of not more than two years, and that the boss and the employee had made a written agreement as such upon commencement of employment.

Section 119. A boss need not pay compensation to an employee whose employment is terminated in any of the following cases:

• (1)Dishonesty in carrying out duties or deliberate commission of a crime against the boss.
• (2)Intentionally causing the boss to suffer damage.
• (3)Negligence, causing the boss to suffer serious damage.
• (4)Violation of the work rules and regulations or the boss’ lawful and legitimate regulations or orders, where the boss had already issued a written warning, except that in serious cases the boss need not issue such a warning. A letter of warning shall be enforceable for not more than one year calculated from the date on which the employee committed the offence.
• (5)Abandonment of post for three consecutive working days, regardless of whether there was a holiday in between or not, for no appropriate reason.
• (6) Imprisonment under a final judgement ordering imprisonment, unless the sentence was for an offence which was committed out of negligence or a petty offence.

  My underlining.

  from:

  http://www.ilo.org/dyn/natlex/docs/WEBTEXT/49727/65119/E98THA01.htm#c12

[WonnabeBiker]

No, it is not a matter of the contract not being renewed. The contract is in effect until the end of April. I have been involved in the termination of a number of employees, but the warnings were specific and involved reasonable (and sometimes legal) consequences to the teacher's action. With those that they simply want to get rid of, it's usually a matter of waiting until the contract is up and not renewing it.

Many schools bank on the fact that most teachers simply do not have the time or resources to pursue a legal battle -- there are too many problems with finding a new job, keeping a visa or work permit etc.. This person, if he decides to pursue a case, have all the time in the world to do so.

Staying at the school is not really an option. If he was so bad, why did he stay for so many years?

At any rate, he will need to decide what to do. Basically, I just haven't seen too many people let go in the middle of a contract without some justification.

Proper notice is required. What does the contract state? I've signed a 3 months' mutual notice period clause in the past.

More recently, some weird passage about the Ministry of finance having some say in it crept into it.

Forgot whether this is a private or a government school? But then, one call to Labour Court (only for private employers!) will clarify that part.

No notice => it's gonna be the school's problem. "We s a i d this or that months ago"? Tough, you are out of luck!

The guy should fight for compensation and seek a new start somewhere else.

[meand]

No, it is not a matter of the contract not being renewed. The contract is in effect until the end of April. I have been involved in the termination of a number of employees, but the warnings were specific and involved reasonable (and sometimes legal) consequences to the teacher's action. With those that they simply want to get rid of, it's usually a matter of waiting until the contract is up and not renewing it.

Many schools bank on the fact that most teachers simply do not have the time or resources to pursue a legal battle -- there are too many problems with finding a new job, keeping a visa or work permit etc.. This person, if he decides to pursue a case, have all the time in the world to do so.

Staying at the school is not really an option. If he was so bad, why did he stay for so many years?

At any rate, he will need to decide what to do. Basically, I just haven't seen too many people let go in the middle of a contract without some justification.

Proper notice is required. What does the contract state? I've signed a 3 months' mutual notice period clause in the past.

More recently, some weird passage about the Ministry of finance having some say in it crept into it.

Forgot whether this is a private or a government school? But then, one call to Labour Court (only for private employers!) will clarify that part.

No notice => it's gonna be the school's problem. "We s a i d this or that months ago"? Tough, you are out of luck!

The guy should fight for compensation and seek a new start somewhere else.

That post by scott is wrong. It doesnt matter if they wait till the end of the contract.

That post a couple above brings up all the actual points. They can get rid of you if you dont follow certain guidelines. But they cant just get rid of you at the end of contract unless it is some type of seasonal work. Read that post up there its all correct... I do agree with what you are saying btw wannabebiker.

[inzman]

Why does he need retribution, there are plenty of jobs available in this country. Can't he move on? It would be the least problematic solution. But I understand there are a certain segment of people that thrive on confrontation. I would get another job and put this one behind me.

[onlycw]

While it is uncertain how a string of annual contracts are viewed by the court, it's clear this teacher should be entitled to a minimum of 1 month's severance payment (if he worked less than 1 year, even if it's for the 7th time).

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761331-severance-at-private-and-at-government-schools-alike/

[Scott]

I am not an expert on the law and what I am citing is from my experience. I would ALWAYS advise people to seek proper legal advice on issues like these.

There are a lot of variables in the dismissal of employees that weigh on the legal ramifications of the discharge.

I am reasonably sure that this person will seek legal advice and he will be around to follow through on it. He is a fully licensed and qualified teacher as well, so there are no skeletons or visa issues in the closet to scare him away.

[Scott]

I do know one of the supervisors at the school, as well as the employee, so hopefully will be able to post any updates.

[meand]

Why does he need retribution, there are plenty of jobs available in this country. Can't he move on? It would be the least problematic solution. But I understand there are a certain segment of people that thrive on confrontation. I would get another job and put this one behind me.

Just my thoughts on your attitude.

If everyone does this, which they do, then the Thai employers treat us however they want without fear of recourse, which they do.

People with your attitude just seem to work nonstop, job to job, and after a few decades go by, somehow don't have much to show for it. I feel thinking a bit more is much more important than just mindlessly jumping into another job. Franklin summed it up nicely when he said "a penny saved is a penny earned".

[Thighlander]

More proof that, eventually the seasoned veterans get canned, too. Unfortunately for this man, there will be no way to hide this employer from his resume. They did give him more notice than many. The school is likely no worse than the next one will be.

[Phatcharanan]

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If he has been employed for 6 or 7 years, then they are going to have to pay him a suitable severence, it would certainly be more than one month salary.

No offence to the person in question but he is not entitled to severance simply because he, like all teachers are contracted annually.

Wrong

[geodesic]

My understanding is that it works something like this:

The PSA basically says that private schools are exempt from the normal requirements of the Labour Act and are free to make their own employment agreements.

HOWEVER, and this is the big however, a legally binding labour contract in Thailand can not offer severance terms less than what is guaranteed in the Labour Act, and the PSA does not override this. Thus, the PSA is basically only useful to a private school for things like opting out of social security and other government programs. When it comes to severance, the employment contract rules, but the Labour Act still specifies the minimum acceptable standards for that contract. An employment contract can always offer better severance terms than the minimum.

Tell your friend to go immediately to Labour Court. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, and do not listen to the nay sayers.

He can be fired for any reason whatsoever, but he is entitled to severance as specified in the Labour Act based on years of employment. And as pointed out above, employers can not get around this by making fixed length contracts and letting them "expire". That has been tested several times by the Labour Court, and the employer always loses.

[claffey]

"On another note, it's illegal for holders of a double nationality i.e. Thai and another, to use a nationality other than Thai whilst being in Thailand."

Can you provide a link to back up this claim? I suspect you can't, but am open to learning otherwise.

I thought that all Thai nationals with another passport had to give one up when they reached 20? Did your friend complete his military service here??

Sounds a bit odd that they gave him the benefits of a foreign contract but accepted his Thai nationality????

[Scott]

He did not do military service in Thailand, but the reasons for that I do not know. Thais do not have to surrender a passport when they enter the country. They are supposed to enter the country on the Thai passport, if they have one.

He was hired as a foreign teacher because he met the qualifications of being a foreign teacher -- an overseas passport, an international education, a degree in education, etc.. They did not have to accept or reject his Thai nationality, it was the foreign nationality that the school accepted.