Why so many overstays?

[USNret]

I am constantly amazed at the number of stories about overstays, ranging from a few hours to several years. I like to think of myself as a "rebel" in some minor sense but I would never intentionally run afoul of the immigration laws of any country I visited. Ok, I can understand -- kind of -- an overstay related to a medical emergency or some such, but this routine 3 days, 30 days, "what do I do next" sort of thing escapes me. I know many of the "offenders" (if you even think of yourself as such) participate in this forum, so please enlighten me.

Are the vast volume of overstays due mainly to the lax attitude of Thai immigration? I.e., "mea culpa" is easier & perhaps cheaper than doing it by the book? In my Navy days, our motto was "It's easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission." Is this what's driving overstays? Do you see it changing with the tightening of Thai immigration policies? Will the prospect of being banned from the country for a year or more cut back on overstayers? Or do they genuinely not care?

TYIA

[PeeJay1959]

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know with the current military rule it's only likely to make things harder for genuine law abiding citizens.

[bertty]

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know with the current military rule it's only likely to make things harder for genuine law abiding citizens.

Why ?

[Timwin]

Ouch! Sounds like we've struck a nerve. Relative moralism raises its ugly head: "I can do bad because others are doing worse."

In your world, refusing to obey a command is the greatest sin but in the civilian world it is sometimes vital to do so. Otherwise, we would be still bowing to the feudal lords. Visas and permits are just administrative procedures.

Take for example that Norwegian chiropractor with very satisfied customer base. Well, he worked without work visa and got recently deported. The end result: No more fantastic and must sought after service available and many customers unhappy. Because there are very few Thais with that same level of expertise.

Thailand would actually benefit greatly with more relaxed visa rules for farangs. European nations benefitted greatly when they let go of the 1970's strict border and permit for this and that world. It went as far as measuring how much petrol a truck had in the tanks because you were only allowed to cross the border with certain set maximum amount.

Then there is the forbidden job list for farangs in Thailand. Thais certainly do not have similar list when they move to USA or EU. Or restrictions about company or land ownership. Or 90 day reporting.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Timwin

[USNret]

Thanks, that really is good feedback. I'll chalk up some votes to (1) Thai immigration policy isn't fair, and (2) I'm above the law. It is an interesting perspective that I hadn't thought of, and this sentence is completely devoid of sarcasm.

FWIW, I don't have buddies torturing kids in Gitmo. I am genuinely ashamed of that chapter in American history. I should point out that the "Ret" part of my screen name means "Retired". I retired from the Navy before Dubya entered office.

Edited September 13, 2014 by USNret

[Timwin]

How did the marihuana laws got changed in many US states? Because so many Americans openly smoked, regardless of the law. Rosa Parks decades before refused to give her seat to a white passenger and all that...

If most of the expats and foreign workers in Thailand marched tomorrow to Bangkok and demanded changes to visa laws, either we would all be deported or the Thai government would actually listen. It would be quite a gamble but so it goes. Not going to happen because it would be like herding a bunch of pampered cats.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Timwin

[bertty]

How did the marihuana laws got changed in many US states? Because so many Americans openly smoked, regardless of the law. Rosa Parks decades before refused to give her seat to a white passenger and all that...

If most of the expats and foreign workers in Thailand marched tomorrow to Bangkok and demanded changes to visa laws, either we would all be deported or the Thai government would actually listen. It would be quite a gamble but so it goes. Not going to happen because it would be like herding a bunch of pampered cats.

Most of the expats and foreign workers in Thailand are on the correct visas and would see no point in marching to change something that doesn't need changing.

[PeeJay1959]

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know with the current military rule it's only likely to make things harder for genuine law abiding citizens.

Why ?

Because it will mean more stringent immigration laws will be imposed, not just for overstayers

[bertty]

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know with the current military rule it's only likely to make things harder for genuine law abiding citizens.

Why ?

Because it will mean more stringent immigration laws will be imposed, not just for overstayers

It doesn't matter how stringent the laws are imposed, if you are abiding by them you will have nothing to worry about.

If your next door neighbor murders someone do you think the law will think you also become more likely to kill ?

[jspill]

You're reading a forum about visas, naturally there will be a sample of hundreds of overstay reports collated on said forum. They represent a fraction of a % of the total population of expats and holidayers. The false perspective of there being 'so many' is known as sample bias. Here endeth the statistics lesson.

[USNret]

The votes so far:

(1) Unfair immigration policy

(2) I'm above the law

(3) Protest/political expression

(4) Statistical bias (self-sampling)

All good answers, and I believe all of them are true to some extent. Thank you for clarifying the matter. This would make a great Family Feud question: "100 farangs were surveyed; what are the top 5 reasons they disregard overstay rules?" (sorry, cultural reference -- an American game show.)

[bangkoklasse]

You're reading a forum about visas, naturally there will be a sample of hundreds of overstay reports collated on said forum. They represent a fraction of a % of the total population of expats and holidayers. The false perspective of there being 'so many' is known as sample bias. Here endeth the statistics lesson.

99% of the overstayers never write about it in TV either. The real numbers where posted here when the new rules where announced. And it was many many thousends of people.

[JLCrab]

Without quantifying just how many persons, for a long time it was a calculated decision that one could overstay by whatever amount of time and the downside was that one would have to pay 20,000 baht at BKK airport Immigration and could then return on some new visa basis shortly thereafter.

I guess those days are over.

[TheSpade]

Are the vast volume of overstays due mainly to the lax attitude of Thai immigration?

Exactly.

If Thai immigration doesn't take it seriously why would anyone else?

It was openly known that overstaying was not an issue.

Pay your 500B a day up to max of 20k (cheaper than most of the other long term visa stay options) and "mai pen rai".

How can you expect people to take it seriously when the powers that be made it clear it wasn't much of a serious issues just as long as you don't 'get caught'.

There's multiple reports of people who have overstayed for anywhere between 3 to 11 years payign the 20k fine and coming back less than 24hrs later and being welcomed in without issue.

[gk10002000]

How did the marihuana laws got changed in many US states? Because so many Americans openly smoked, regardless of the law. Rosa Parks decades before refused to give her seat to a white passenger and all that...

If most of the expats and foreign workers in Thailand marched tomorrow to Bangkok and demanded changes to visa laws, either we would all be deported or the Thai government would actually listen. It would be quite a gamble but so it goes. Not going to happen because it would be like herding a bunch of pampered cats.

The one law/policy I would want changed is that 90 day reporting, especially if on a retirement extension visa. goodness. What a waste of paperwork and effort. Make it a one year check-in. One of the reasons I holiday in Thailand is because it is easy to fly to and I get and easy 30 day exempt visa upon arrival. No paperwork in advance needed, no fretting about mailing my passport around to get Visa in advance and trying to coordinate my flights. I just book my flight and go. I am able to retire in the LOS and I now that 90 day thing would bother me a lot, especially those few times where some emergency crops up or my travels get i nterrupted and I have to scurry about or have to travel back to the same province for reporting etc. Yes I am aware of mailing in reports, but that also has issues especially if some question arises and then I am away visiting another place, etc.

[JLCrab]

The 90 day reporting is specified in Section 37 of the Thai Immigration Act. If they started to amend that Act as mentioned above, it might turn out that and maybe other measures would be amended however not in the desired direction.

[Timwin]

It doesn't matter how stringent the laws are imposed, if you are abiding by them you will have nothing to worry about.

If your next door neighbor murders someone do you think the law will think you also become more likely to kill ?

Are there still people like you? WWII ring a bell? You must have skipped the history classes in high school. The Germans had a very well written law framework to persecute all kinds of minorities. Soviet Union had a wonderful constitution. The trouble was no Soviet government official bothered to actually to follow it. More like, we already found the guilty one, now we just have to invent the crimes he is guilty of.

[JLCrab]

So next come the civil disobedience quotes from Thoreau, Tolstoy, Gandhi, and Martin Luther King?

[enuff said]

.

You overstay your visa. In other countries this would result in imprisonment until heavy fines are paid then deportation with personna non-grata status and no appeals possible.

Thailand cut people a break for a long time until the numbers started to show that people were just taking the p^ss. Nobody likes to have their easy going attitude turned against them by louts.

Unfortunately virtually every visa law (ED visa come to mind?), work permit law, business start up regulations, etc., is being sh*t on and abused one way or another by corrupt foriegners who then whine about Thai corruption. You can read about it every day right here in black and white.

90 day reporting. My God what a hassle that is. Considering it costs nothing fee-wise, needn't be done in person, and can be done by post THREE TIMES A YEAR. I gotta go, I hear a BABY crying.

'nuff said

~

[Phatcharanan]

It doesn't matter how stringent the laws are imposed, if you are abiding by them you will have nothing to worry about.

If your next door neighbor murders someone do you think the law will think you also become more likely to kill ?

Are there still people like you? WWII ring a bell? You must have skipped the history classes in high school. The Germans had a very well written law framework to persecute all kinds of minorities. Soviet Union had a wonderful constitution. The trouble was no Soviet government official bothered to actually to follow it. More like, we already found the guilty one, now we just have to invent the crimes he is guilty of.

A totally ridiculous comparison.

[ubonjoe]

Since this topic is nothing but a troll magnet as can be seen from the off topic posts made already and the topic has been discussed previously in various topics on this forum it is now closed.