Germany: Former Nazi guard charged over 300,000 Auschwitz murders

[imaderbyfan]

23 .....93 ...what has age got to do with it?.

his ghastly past has caught up with him.....monster.

[imaderbyfan]

For good sake, he's 93 years old, stop talking about all this ww2. Hunting old people. He's properly already on the way to the die.

Carstemp may I ask where you are from and your age?

[imaderbyfan]

Hunting old people?????

The same people people who committed atrocities when they were younger.

so now they grow older we have to forgive and forget right?

[imaderbyfan]

sorry.......

I feel that they should be made to suffer as they made their captors suffer....

Absolute animals.....

no sympathy.....no matter how old.....

pay the penalty for your inhuman behaviour.....

[Jingthing]

...

He said the reason was almost no German soldiers or civilians had any idea what was really being done in the camps but ALL the Nazis did.

...

I think that is not actually true. Germans after the war of course understandably lied a lot about their support of Nazis and knowledge of events. After all they were occupied by former enemies. But historians have smoked out their lies:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard

The mass of ordinary Germans did know about the evolving terror of Hitler's Holocaust, according to a new research study. They knew concentration camps were full of Jewish people who were stigmatised as sub-human and race-defilers. They knew that these, like other groups and minorities, were being killed out of hand.

They knew that Adolf Hitler had repeatedly forecast the extermination of every Jew on German soil. They knew these details because they had read about them. They knew because the camps and the measures which led up to them had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of officially-inspired German media articles and posters according to the study, which is due to be published simultaneously in Britain and the US early next month and which was described as ground-breaking by Oxford University Press yesterday and already hailed by other historians.

Obviously talking about German people of that era and not MODERN Germans!

Edited September 16, 2014 by Jingthing

[tony5150]

For good sake, he's 93 years old, stop talking about all this ww2. Hunting old people. He's properly already on the way to the die.

Really, so this is your take on the holocaust? is that all you got out of it? leave him alone

it happened 60 years ago? have you learned nothing?

so he's 93 eh? how many 93 old people did he helped to kill? no one than told him to leave

them alone and forgot about them..

being an ignorant is not a crime, showing it, is....

So then why not kill every German? Aside from a handful of people most Jews believe every German was complacent. Why have no Russians been brought to justice for the rape and murders of millions of German women and children?

[uptheos]

...

He said the reason was almost no German soldiers or civilians had any idea what was really being done in the camps but ALL the Nazis did.

...

I think that is not actually true. Germans after the war of course understandably lied a lot about their support of Nazis and knowledge of events. After all they were occupied by former enemies. But historians have smoked out their lies:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard

The mass of ordinary Germans did know about the evolving terror of Hitler's Holocaust, according to a new research study. They knew concentration camps were full of Jewish people who were stigmatised as sub-human and race-defilers. They knew that these, like other groups and minorities, were being killed out of hand.

They knew that Adolf Hitler had repeatedly forecast the extermination of every Jew on German soil. They knew these details because they had read about them. They knew because the camps and the measures which led up to them had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of officially-inspired German media articles and posters according to the study, which is due to be published simultaneously in Britain and the US early next month and which was described as ground-breaking by Oxford University Press yesterday and already hailed by other historians.

Obviously talking about German people of that era and not MODERN Germans!

I'd me more interested to see the actual study rather than this 2001 article, although it won't sway me at this stage of life.

There are also historians and too many numerous personal accounts to mention, that not only did German people of the time know what was going on, but they were also complicit and brutal in helping the Reich try to solve the Jewish question. In Goldhagan's words they were Hitlers Willing Executioners. I'm sorry for the German's alive today who are living with the guilt of this knowledge, but I don't see any point in hiding it, it is what it is.

[Thai at Heart]

For good sake, he's 93 years old, stop talking about all this ww2. Hunting old people. He's properly already on the way to the die.

What does being old have to do with getting away accessory to mass murder ?

As for the 300,000 killed in the gas chambers here is just one example of that in doubt According to the Red Cross, Though many many people supposedly died in the gas chambers, not one body has ever been autopsied and found to have died of gas poisoning. We have been shown piles of bodies from World War II, but most of these persons died of typhus or starvation or simply killed by soldiers in camps usually by firearm Nuremberg evidence supporting witness claims should be packed full of gassed bodies to present as evidence, after all there was apparently no shortage of victims to Zyclon B and for decades we have had the technology to do these tests on victims even bones yet not one body has ever been discovered nor presented at any war crime trial

it is questionable about the gas chambers if even there or were connected since the Russians actually built the current smoke stack and supposed chambers, which isnt even connected to the building and added the roof hatches, POST war. There was an oven section for cremation but the numbers claimed to be cremated in large quantities is physically and logistically impossible.

im not saying mass murders didnt happen but all my research ive done into Auschwitz including having been there 3 times does not corroborate the claims, it was a work and even death camp yes but the gas chambers mass killings is imo highly doubtful and totally unproven with even one piece of evidence regarding gassings there.

Dead is dead, 300,000 is still that number dead and no matter the age of anyone involved they should if alive stand trial but the manner claimed is unfortunately/fortunately ? now very questionable regarding solid fact.

If he is accused of removing luggage and the such, he was probably compelled to do so under threat of being shot.

If he killed people, so be his punishment, but moving luggage. Hmmmmm

[uptheos]

For good sake, he's 93 years old, stop talking about all this ww2. Hunting old people. He's properly already on the way to the die.

What does being old have to do with getting away accessory to mass murder ?

As for the 300,000 killed in the gas chambers here is just one example of that in doubt According to the Red Cross, Though many many people supposedly died in the gas chambers, not one body has ever been autopsied and found to have died of gas poisoning. We have been shown piles of bodies from World War II, but most of these persons died of typhus or starvation or simply killed by soldiers in camps usually by firearm Nuremberg evidence supporting witness claims should be packed full of gassed bodies to present as evidence, after all there was apparently no shortage of victims to Zyclon B and for decades we have had the technology to do these tests on victims even bones yet not one body has ever been discovered nor presented at any war crime trial

it is questionable about the gas chambers if even there or were connected since the Russians actually built the current smoke stack and supposed chambers, which isnt even connected to the building and added the roof hatches, POST war. There was an oven section for cremation but the numbers claimed to be cremated in large quantities is physically and logistically impossible.

im not saying mass murders didnt happen but all my research ive done into Auschwitz including having been there 3 times does not corroborate the claims, it was a work and even death camp yes but the gas chambers mass killings is imo highly doubtful and totally unproven with even one piece of evidence regarding gassings there.

Dead is dead, 300,000 is still that number dead and no matter the age of anyone involved they should if alive stand trial but the manner claimed is unfortunately/fortunately ? now very questionable regarding solid fact.

If he is accused of removing luggage and the such, he was probably compelled to do so under threat of being shot.

If he killed people, so be his punishment, but moving luggage. Hmmmmm

You have absolutely no idea pure conjecture on your part.

Edited September 16, 2014 by metisdead
16) You will not make changes to quoted material from other members posts, except for purposes of shortening the quoted post. This cannot be done in such a manner that it alters the context of the original post.

[RecklessRon]

I wonder why it is that people who have no personal experience, were not there, never talked to anyone who was there and don't have any friends or family who where there, on ANY side, feel they have the right to claim anything about what happened based on their own opinions garnered from articles mainly written by people who also where not there? Especially when anyone who was there, or talked with anyone who was there, will tell you it happened?

"I Googled it and found out it was not real!" REALLY? Try telling that to a concentration camp survivor! Or any of the soldiers who fought against it and actually saw the concentration camps! I have met and talked to many, many camp survivors.

I have personally seen their tattoos and their broken bodies and heard stories that are unforgettable from people who actually lived through it.

And why is it always the only about the JEWS? Poles and Russians were treated to the same conditions in the camps, albeit their race wasn't targeted to be exterminated. (and no I am not dismissing atrocities that other countries committed but that has zero bearing on whether or not the holocaust happened!)

BTW: I am not a believer in Yahweh, I don't believe they had any claim to the land Israel currently occupies and I think what is happening to the Palestinians since 1945 is also an atrocity! BUT NONE of that has anything to do with what was done by the Nazis during WWII.

Edited September 16, 2014 by RecklessRon

[Jingthing]

JT, one question : do you think the major part of Jews that were in Germany in 1930 were orthodox Jews?

Hitler's holocaust of six million Jews was not only Germany, but all over Europe.

http://www.ushmm.org/learn/introduction-to-the-holocaust

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/media_nm.php?ModuleId=10005143&MediaId=3372

He also intended to go into Palestine when he could but starting losing the war. Anybody with "Jewish blood" of a certain level was a target. It was not as much about religion or level of observance as about RACISM and GENOCIDE. I don't know the exact percentage of assimilated Jews vs. ultra religious ones in Germany at the the time except that I do know many German Jews were very assimilated. I am not sure why you are even asking this. Perhaps if you're so interested you can research it and tell us.

Of course Jews were not the only target for genocide by Hitler, but they were the primary target.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Jingthing

[NeilSA1]

I think the report refers to Oskar Groening, who was in charge of property collection. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Gr%C3%B6ning

It is a nonsense to prosecute this man other than as a formality in order to get his account on the formal record of history. He was 23 years old at the time, worked in a clerical function, and (claims to have) attempted to resign in protest. He has expressed remorse in actions, not only words.

He is also one of the main opponents of Holocaust deniers having made bold, public statements against those, such as Englishoak, above, who attempt to suggest that there were no gas chambers.

My father signed up for WW2 at age 16 and was wounded. His cousin was killed. I know my father would say that its time to forgive, especially after reading the above wikipedia article.

[Thai at Heart]

For good sake, he's 93 years old, stop talking about all this ww2. Hunting old people. He's properly already on the way to the die.

What does being old have to do with getting away accessory to mass murder ?

As for the 300,000 killed in the gas chambers here is just one example of that in doubt According to the Red Cross, Though many many people supposedly died in the gas chambers, not one body has ever been autopsied and found to have died of gas poisoning. We have been shown piles of bodies from World War II, but most of these persons died of typhus or starvation or simply killed by soldiers in camps usually by firearm Nuremberg evidence supporting witness claims should be packed full of gassed bodies to present as evidence, after all there was apparently no shortage of victims to Zyclon B and for decades we have had the technology to do these tests on victims even bones yet not one body has ever been discovered nor presented at any war crime trial

it is questionable about the gas chambers if even there or were connected since the Russians actually built the current smoke stack and supposed chambers, which isnt even connected to the building and added the roof hatches, POST war. There was an oven section for cremation but the numbers claimed to be cremated in large quantities is physically and logistically impossible.

im not saying mass murders didnt happen but all my research ive done into Auschwitz including having been there 3 times does not corroborate the claims, it was a work and even death camp yes but the gas chambers mass killings is imo highly doubtful and totally unproven with even one piece of evidence regarding gassings there.

Dead is dead, 300,000 is still that number dead and no matter the age of anyone involved they should if alive stand trial but the manner claimed is unfortunately/fortunately ? now very questionable regarding solid fact.

If he is accused of removing luggage and the such, he was probably compelled to do so under threat of being shot.

If he killed people, so be his punishment, but moving luggage. Hmmmmm

You have absolutely no idea pure conjecture on your part.

Well no, I have the article. Which since it is the only subject matter we have it stated.

His main role was moving luggage and counting money. So it isn't conjecture. If you defied a direct order to pick up luggage in that environment, you would be a braver man than most of us.

As I said, if he was directly involved in killing people, so be it. But this is ever so slightly tenuous.

[RecklessRon]

Thai at heart said:

Well no, I have the article. Which since it is the only subject matter we have it stated.

His main role was moving luggage and counting money. So it isn't conjecture. If you defied a direct order to pick up luggage in that environment, you would be a braver man than most of us.

As I said, if he was directly involved in killing people, so be it. But this is ever so slightly tenuous.

---------------------------------------

By that logic if I am a doorman working for some seriously bad dudes and my job is simply to open the door while they transport people who are obviously kidnapped into a basement where I KNOW they will be tortured and killed I am NOT responsible, legally? Clearly I'll be killed if I say anything so I guess you'd be okay with my walking away from it without being prosecuted?

And if I get away from them and shut my mouth for 40 or 60 years I will be blameless, eh!

Edited September 16, 2014 by RecklessRon

[metisdead]

Off topic obfuscation posts and replies have been removed as well as a flame post.

[slipperylobster]

I picture this guy offloading trains full of unknowing victims, who think they are only being relocated. The luggage is offloaded, and this guy busts open the suitcases, searching for valuables. As he gleefully fills his pockets with looted treasure, the screams and agonies of the hapless victims are ignored, as yet another train, full of loot and cattle, comes chugging down the tracks of death. The message is clear....distance yourself from this kind of evil, or pay the consequences.

Time has nothing to do with it. All those thousands and thousands of murdered souls have all the time in the world for him.

Edited September 16, 2014 by slipperylobster

[goatfarmer]

I think the report refers to Oskar Groening, who was in charge of property collection. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Gr%C3%B6ning

It is a nonsense to prosecute this man other than as a formality in order to get his account on the formal record of history. He was 23 years old at the time, worked in a clerical function, and (claims to have) attempted to resign in protest. He has expressed remorse in actions, not only words.

He is also one of the main opponents of Holocaust deniers having made bold, public statements against those, such as Englishoak, above, who attempt to suggest that there were no gas chambers.

My father signed up for WW2 at age 16 and was wounded. His cousin was killed. I know my father would say that its time to forgive, especially after reading the above wikipedia article.

Of course it's time to forgive. It was 70 years ago. It's history.

[iamariva1957]

For good sake, he's 93 years old, stop talking about all this ww2. Hunting old people. He's properly already on the way to the die.

His age is NOT the point! There is far more at stake here. Or are you saying that anybody accused of Crimes Against Humanity or any other crime for that matter should be left alone just because of their age? As for talking about WW2... to each his own.

[iamariva1957]

I think the report refers to Oskar Groening, who was in charge of property collection. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Gr%C3%B6ning

It is a nonsense to prosecute this man other than as a formality in order to get his account on the formal record of history. He was 23 years old at the time, worked in a clerical function, and (claims to have) attempted to resign in protest. He has expressed remorse in actions, not only words.

He is also one of the main opponents of Holocaust deniers having made bold, public statements against those, such as Englishoak, above, who attempt to suggest that there were no gas chambers.

My father signed up for WW2 at age 16 and was wounded. His cousin was killed. I know my father would say that its time to forgive, especially after reading the above wikipedia article.

Of course it's time to forgive. It was 70 years ago. It's history.

Spoken like a good member of a family that did not suffer in the Camps! Forgive? You have to be kidding! I guess we should then forgive everyone for everything, because of age? Stupid!

[Ulysses G.]

Let a Nazi off for involvement in tens of thousands of murders, because he got away with it for so long? No way.

[iamariva1957]

For good sake, he's 93 years old, stop talking about all this ww2. Hunting old people. He's properly already on the way to the die.

Really, so this is your take on the holocaust? is that all you got out of it? leave him alone

it happened 60 years ago? have you learned nothing?

so he's 93 eh? how many 93 old people did he helped to kill? no one than told him to leave

them alone and forgot about them..

being an ignorant is not a crime, showing it, is....

I don't want to talk more about this. For me forgiveness is the most imported thing in the world.

He was not in command, he just followed order, and that time for 70 years ago. Do you think he cut say no

He has being living with this all his live. Properly lived in he's dream, people he sees on the street remind him on the days where he was command to do what he was doing.

For me he's forgiven for he's sins, even my father in laws has forgiven people from this time, even he has lost 3 brother.

This is forgiveness.

What a load of tripe! Let us try and not make this into a somehow 'romantic melodrama'. Your kines; "Not in Command", "Lived in his dreams", and the worst one of all... "was just following orders"? Besides you very poor English, you have shown yourself to be completely ignorant with regards to those who have numbers tattooed on their arms, who after having large families found themselves in '45 all alone. I would love to know from where you are from and how old you for maybe that would explain your arrogance!

[uptheos]

For good sake, he's 93 years old, stop talking about all this ww2. Hunting old people. He's properly already on the way to the die.

.....

Celebration times are great!!

[Credo]

For those who can forgive him, great. For those who can't, so be it, but it is up to the court to first consider his guilt over the matter and then to decide on any punishment. They may well take his age and health into consideration in sentencing, if he is found guilty.

One of the outcomes of the trial is to have a record of what he knows about what happened and who gave the orders.

The truth is what I would like to see. The conviction or sentencing is secondary, in part because of his age.

[simple1]

For good sake, he's 93 years old, stop talking about all this ww2. Hunting old people. He's properly already on the way to the die.

There must be no time limit on this or any other atrocity or crime against humanity. This guy has had his freedom and normal life for seventy years or so - more than any of his alleged victims or, importantly, their families and survivors.

If guilty, HIS family should know about it and suffer the shame of it.

So what if he is half dead already? Justice may have been slow to catch up with him, and others, but justice must be seen to be done, if only as a warning to those who may think there is a universal 'statute of limitation'.

Shot at age 20 for refusing orders or live to age 90 then a trial and rest of your life in comfy nursing home at taxpayers expense?

I know which one I would choose.

Along with everyone else including the Jews.

From my reading Germans were not executed for refusing service / requesting transfer from the concentration camps, nor the organised mobile killing units.

[goatfarmer]

I think the report refers to Oskar Groening, who was in charge of property collection. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Gr%C3%B6ning

It is a nonsense to prosecute this man other than as a formality in order to get his account on the formal record of history. He was 23 years old at the time, worked in a clerical function, and (claims to have) attempted to resign in protest. He has expressed remorse in actions, not only words.

He is also one of the main opponents of Holocaust deniers having made bold, public statements against those, such as Englishoak, above, who attempt to suggest that there were no gas chambers.

My father signed up for WW2 at age 16 and was wounded. His cousin was killed. I know my father would say that its time to forgive, especially after reading the above wikipedia article.

Of course it's time to forgive. It was 70 years ago. It's history.

Spoken like a good member of a family that did not suffer in the Camps! Forgive? You have to be kidding! I guess we should then forgive everyone for everything, because of age? Stupid!

You raise a fair point. If Adolf Eichmann or Josef Mengele were brought out of the jungle I doubt anyone would protest at seeing them dangle on the basis of 'history'. Groening, on the other hand, was a young man in a clerical function thrust into an unfortunate situation at an unfortunate time. What would you have done in his situation? It's easy to be a hero ex post facto. But ordinary people in ugly situations are not obliged to be heroes. They are merely required to do minimum damage and survive. Groening has demonstrated his sincerity by sticking his neck out to denounce 'historians' who claim that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz. Justice would not be served by locking him away. On the other hand, he might welcome the trial.

To your other point, my family background (98% DNA-certified Ashkenazy Jewish from Poland and Lithuania) is totally irrelevant. My argument stands or falls on its merits.

[Mosha]

For good sake, he's 93 years old, stop talking about all this ww2. Hunting old people. He's properly already on the way to the die.

Lest We Forget

[h90]

For good sake, he's 93 years old, stop talking about all this ww2. Hunting old people. He's properly already on the way to the die.

There must be no time limit on this or any other atrocity or crime against humanity. This guy has had his freedom and normal life for seventy years or so - more than any of his alleged victims or, importantly, their families and survivors.

If guilty, HIS family should know about it and suffer the shame of it.

So what if he is half dead already? Justice may have been slow to catch up with him, and others, but justice must be seen to be done, if only as a warning to those who may think there is a universal 'statute of limitation'.

But maybe it would be more wise to focus on the crimes which are done today and which could be stopped just now and not in 70 years.

But there all of these "good people" who want to jail someone 93 years old are silent....

[carstenp]

For good sake, he's 93 years old, stop talking about all this ww2. Hunting old people. He's properly already on the way to the die.

Really, so this is your take on the holocaust? is that all you got out of it? leave him alone

it happened 60 years ago? have you learned nothing?

so he's 93 eh? how many 93 old people did he helped to kill? no one than told him to leave

them alone and forgot about them..

being an ignorant is not a crime, showing it, is....

I don't want to talk more about this. For me forgiveness is the most imported thing in the world.

He was not in command, he just followed order, and that time for 70 years ago. Do you think he cut say no

He has being living with this all his live. Properly lived in he's dream, people he sees on the street remind him on the days where he was command to do what he was doing.

For me he's forgiven for he's sins, even my father in laws has forgiven people from this time, even he has lost 3 brother.

This is forgiveness.

What a load of tripe! Let us try and not make this into a somehow 'romantic melodrama'. Your kines; "Not in Command", "Lived in his dreams", and the worst one of all... "was just following orders"? Besides you very poor English, you have shown yourself to be completely ignorant with regards to those who have numbers tattooed on their arms, who after having large families found themselves in '45 all alone. I would love to know from where you are from and how old you for maybe that would explain your arrogance!

First I'm 48 years old, lost 3 family members under the war, still has family members from that time,my father in laws lost he's brothers, but he has forgiven them. I think it's time to forgive. It's 70 years ago

About my English skill f$$$ you, I'm proud I'm able to write, speak, read more than one language

But I will forgive your arrogance

Edited September 17, 2014 by carstenp

[ABCer]

Quote OP: "The accused helped remove the luggage of victims so that it was not seen by new arrivals, said prosecutors in the northern city of Hanover."

I am not a Holocaust denier.

I am not an apologist for Holocaust.

I am not even an apologist for 'forgiveness'.

But this particular case looks a bit strange to say the least.

Are the prosecuters of Hanover going to prosecute this miserable sod for being a 'porter'?

Or did he perform other 'duties' not specified in OP?

Edited September 17, 2014 by ABCer

[umbanda]

Members of my family where murdered in Auschwitz, and I cannot forget the atrocities, and forgive the murderers.

To blame a young German soldier serving in the concentration camp for those crimes, doesn't make any sense. German soldiers were drafted, and were following orders liike any soldier do. Are thousand of ex Nazi officers and ex professional soldiers that never were charged for any crime. Many of those gaves orders to kill civilians, or did it directly.

Drafted soldiers do not have choices. Recusing orders or deserting means jail or dead, specially during war. Drafted soldiers are sending to kill people and/or to die without any other options.

How about soldiers that are paid volunteers to do it...like in many World Armies, like the US Army?

Those had other options, but those found an "ideal" or a "good reason" to be murderers in exchange of a job.

Sorry if this offend some veterans of wars, but I am kinf of one too. a volunteer in civil services in 1967. I am glad that never had to shoot anybody, and I had the option to recuse if was order to do it. This German soldier didn't, and I am sure, its living the last 70 years with bad memories.