Hello Everybody!

Long time TV lurker here, and would just like to say first off, thanks for all the solid Visa information!

I've been living in the kingdom now for about 5 years now, and TV really saved my butt in a few tourist runs and what not— much appreciated.

Now my time has come that I have an issue that I have not been able to find a viable solution for through my own attempts.

I hope by posting here that maybe somebody else will know of a past solution, or can help me directly (see bottom of post).

Here's the gist of it:

I am half Thai and Canadian, born to legally married parents in Canada (born outside thailand), and have already obtained my Thai birth certifcate (from the Thai embassy in Canada), which even states my nationality as Thai.

But I am being denied entering my families House Book because I am older than 20.

However, if I had property in Don Muang, Bangkok, I can then obtain citizenship/passport (explained below).

Apparently I must choose before reaching the age of 20, what Citizenship I wish to hold.

Usually though half Thai nationals will be able to hold dual citizenship, because they get in the door before they reach 20 (YMMV).

I am still pursuing this option to get my Thai ID / Full citizenship, even though I have been denied at 3 different district offices, because I think there might still be hope (let me explain below).

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1st time: April 2010 - Phitsanulok District Office

My Thai brother took me and my Mother, and the Pooyai from the local moo barn to the District Office in Phitsanulok.

Denied House registration there, old lady really didn't like the idea and basically said my "Thai Birth certificate" was no good here.

Bottom reason was that I was too old (just 25 at the time) and she really had no idea what was going on (as she admitted).

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2nd time: July 2014 - Khlong Luang District Office (Pathum Thani)

Thinking maybe I should try at a different District, perhaps closer to BKK—made a bit of progress here.

I was still denied, but at least she asked for every single document possibly conceivable (both originals and then Thai translations).

And then she requested an interview with my Mother, and also requested I get a letter from my embassy that I renounced my Canadian Citizenship (yea right...)

And then, I am not even sure if she will do it. She is very serious.

I told her in Thai.. "but but.. everybody says just to take Thai birth certificate to here and can register"..

And she said.. "Nong.. I don't care what other people say, this is how it works here. Period."

My mother is currently in Canada, so this may be a future option if I can get the Renounciation Affidavit.

But seems like a long shot with this one.

_________

3rd time: August 2014 -Don Muang District Office (Pathum Thani)

While doing my marriage registration at the Don Muang district office (apparently they are more sophisticated here and can issue the marriage certificate instantly),

I asked about my house registration situation, and the fact that my mother is Thai.

I was received much better here, they even seemed happy to help me and started asking around and talking about it.

I asked them about the age requirement, they basically said.. "Oh yea that.. yeah it makes things hard.. but whatever we can do it"

The one officier there was very knowledgeable, and told me it can be done.

They completely understood my situation, and said older farangs (30+) do this all the time, it's definitely possible.

However, I do not own any property in Don Muang district, so they cannot assist me.

_____________________________________________

Solutions ??

1. The obvious solution is to go buy land / property in Don Muang and then get my Mother on the House book, thus allowing me to follow her in easily (as explained by the officer at Don Muang).

But really, I rather not spend a million+ on a condo just for this.

2. Find somebody to sell me a 1 square meter (smallest possible) of property in Don Muang, for a highly marked up fee. And then I would gladly give it back to them free after I'm done.

(What's fair? 50-100k THB?)

3. Find somebody in Don Muang to let me and my Mother temporarily enter their house book and then leave once done.

(What's fair? 50-100k THB?)

4. The Thai Laws are so inconsistent here, perhaps I just need to take a Lawyer with me to make sure the officer isn't lazy.

I can't try any more district offices, because I only have access to family property in Phitsanulok and Khlong Luang (Rangsit).

_____________________________________________

Required Affadavit for Canadian Citizenship Renounciation

I asked the Canadian Embassy Consular in Bangkok about my situation during a session for some notarization.

After a long chat, we came to the following conclusion.

I can make an Affidavit in front of her, that states I will renounce my Canadian Citizenship.

This "should" suffice as proof of renounciation for the District Office (though Don Muang didn't request this).

This would also not be later "binding", as the consular told me nobody has ever checked if somebody has carried out their renounciation.

So I can secretly keep my Canadian Citizenship (again, lots of Thais have dual citizenship, but I am just unlucky).

_____________________________________________

If only I knew who to pay, or which wheels to grease, I would be more than happy to do it.

I thank you for reaching the end of this long post.

Any ideas or solutions you guys may have would be greatly appreciated.

The easiest way would have been to apply for your Thai passport at the Thai embassy in Canada when you got your Thai birth certificate there. As you are in Thailand now, the district office has no right to refuse adding you to the house registration book of a Thai national living in that district and to give you a Thai ID card. I don't know how to advise you to fight this unjustified refusal, except perhaps to file a complaint with the police against the district official for abuse of authority.

Thanks for the reply Maestro.

Last week I had emailed the Vancouver Royal Thai Consulate in Canada concerning an appointment to get a passport.

As I would like to confirm before booking a round trip to Canada just for the passport.

Initially they had told me that I can just go to the District office in Thailand and register there.

But after telling them that I was denied at 2 different places due to age, I havn't heard anything back yet (maybe it's getting forwarded around).

_________

The problem for me is that the Thai Passport has the 13 digit Thai ID on it, so I have no idea where my number will come from if the Embassy issues me a Passport directly.

Is there any known cases for this? Eg. Thai Embassy can create a brand new passport / identity for a child that has never been to Thailand (and thus has no 13 digit ID).

As the 13 digit ID is linked to the House registration system, I'm not sure the Thai Embassy can do that from abroad.

( I will find out soon )

I knew a few other Thai / Canadian nationals while growing up in Canada, and they all got their passports issued from the same embassy.

But all their mothers flew back to Thailand to give birth, so everything was already done.

I will wait for the embassy to get back to me on whether or not that's possible.

Otherwise as you suggested, perhaps I should contact a Lawyer and/or police complaint.

But to me.. it sounds like the District office has good reason to refuse me, it's just a ridiculous one which is only enforced by the strict officiers.

Nowdays birth certificates are just not used anymore. If you have an ID you will never again need a birth certificate in Thailand for any purpose whatsoever.

If you can somehow get an ID you will not have the problems that you have. The officials that you have been dealing with are not used to Birth certificates and are possibly suspicious.

They have no photo on them and can easily be forged. They are hand written on poor quality paper!

Normally persons in your case need to confirm thai nationality before 21 and get an ID. I think you might be best to consult a lawyer, I would not try the other things

you suggested.

One of our kids was born outside Thailand. We needed to take the birth certificate issued by the Thai Embassy and have it authenticated at the MFA, in Chaeng Wattana. Without that, no entry in house book or ID card.

If you have all the necessary paperwork they should do it. I was placed in at 23.

StefanBBK, that makes absolute sense!

Can't believe I have never heard of that or even thought about doing that.

The birth certificate does look like a fairly ordinary piece of paper with printed text, and a single red stamp.

So perhaps that MFA authentication will help move things along, and then lastly just provide my renounciation affidavit.

I will do that at my next earliest convenience, then perhaps try again at both district offices.

...

The problem for me is that the Thai Passport has the 13 digit Thai ID on it, so I have no idea where my number will come from if the Embassy issues me a Passport directly.

Is there any known cases for this? Eg. Thai Embassy can create a brand new passport / identity for a child that has never been to Thailand (and thus has no 13 digit ID).

As the 13 digit ID is linked to the House registration system, I'm not sure the Thai Embassy can do that from abroad.

( I will find out soon )

...

I believe that for a passport applicant who, for valid reasons, has no Thai ID number, eg a child born outside Thailand without ever having taken residence in Thailand yet, the ID field is left blank in that passport.

The 13-digit ID number is not derived form the house registration book number. When a person is entered in the house registration, that person's ID number is also listed, together the birth date and the parents' names.

@Maestro ah that's great then, probably a very good chance I can get it issued in Canada then.

@Halfie yeah that's what I been thinking for about 5 years now, it's gotta be easy.

I'm interested if you remember what district you were placed in?

I was asked for various additional documents when I was denied last.

Such as Father/Mother original marriage certificate, my original certificate etc.

I can satisify all these documents in the short future easily,

however lastly she requested the letter from my embassy regarding renouncing Canada citizenship to become Thai.

@Halfie was this brought up when you did it? and if so how did you get around it this fact?

You probably do need some legal advice and guidance from a lawyer.

But I'd firmly recommend that you do NOT renounce your Canadian citizenship. Having dual citizenship could make many things much easier for you at some time in the future, unless you're planning on settling in Thailand and staying there permanently, without external travel.

Find a way around the issues without renunciation of any other citizenship.

It doesn't sound like you speak Thai very well which is leading to misunderstandings.

You do not need a property, but you need the permission of the house master in any district to put you on their house registration. You do not need to own the property.

You will also need two Thais to vouch for you when you get put on the house registry.

Your birth certificate may be he starting point, but you will need proof of your mothers Thai nationality and ideally, your mother there during the registration process.

Also needed are your fathers details etc.

Ignore the advice about needing to renounce your Canadian nationality, it isn't required.

A recent thread

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/756215-please-help-us-get-out-of-thailand/?fromsearch=1

Edited September 18, 201411 yr by samran

A assume you do a have Thai birth certificate that was done through the embassy or consulate in Canada.

When go in to get registered in the house book is when you will get the ID number. From my understanding that is the hardest part for the registrar to do at the Amphoe.

If you have the Thai birth certificate you should be able to get registered. The offices you have been going to were just making excuses for not doing it. Their is no age limit to do it.

You can be entered in any house book all you need is the house masters approval to do it.

Thanks for the clarification Ubonjoe.

Each time I had gone to the Amphoe, I always went with the House master (kind of silly not to do that in this case I would imagine).

First time the House master was my Mother herself, along with my older Thai brother and the village chief (still no deal).

Second time I went with my Thai Mother in law, as I was trying a different district and she was the house master there.

Guess I will be seeking legal assistance, along with the existing suggestions to get the Birth certificate authenticated at MFA.

You just need to look at the different results at the 3 Amphoes. The first 2 gave you a a runaround about doing it because they probably had never done a registration like yours. Then you asked at one that gave you a positive response because they have done it before.

Do you know anybody that lives in the Don Mueang district that is a housemaster.

I cannot see the the MFA authentication of your birth certificate at the MFA will help or if they will even do it.

I suspect legal assistance will just cost you more money with no guaranteed results.

With your Thai birth certificate you are Thai and should be in the online database.

Your age is not important. Thai law only allows you to choose bewteen nationalities at age 20, but doesn't demand it.

What normally happens if someone who was born abroad wants to register in a household book is that they need two witnesses to vouch for them and confirm you are indeed the person you claim to be.

Buying land is not going to do it as a piece of land is not the issue. The issue is that you must register at a house. So only buying a house or appartment will solve this problem if you can't find someone who is willing to allow you to register at their address.

You could contact the department of provincial administration, through the government hotline 1111. They can tell you your rights and might even contact the amphur in question.

Don't renounce your Canadian citizenship. I'm American-Thai and I didn't need to renounce. The housebook belonged to a relative of my mothers and was at Pattaya city hall.

When we put my 4 kids (all over 20 years old at the time) in their mother's House Registration Book in Bangkok (3 born in USA) they had to have verified birth certificates. The three from USA had to get MFA authentication and the one born in Thailand had to get authentication from the original District Office that issued the birth certificate. They then had to take their mother and two more witnesses to the District Office where they were interviewed. The office also asked for a lot of other documentation that was basically to verify that their mother was in fact their mother and that she is a Thai citizen. This included old pictures with kids, her passport, ID card, and a signed statement that she was their mother and wanted them placed in her House registration book. It took a lot of time and effort but they did get registered, ID cards and passports. Best option would have been to get the passports in the USA. The same many be true for you in Canada.

Best option would have been to get the passports in the USA. The same many be true for you in Canada.

But even with a Thai passport the OP would still need the all important house registration, and that can be done only in Thailand. It is needed for virtually any transaction. Once house registration is done, Thai ID card and passport will immediately follow.

I had read that there is a central registry in Bangkok where people that cannot be added somewhere else are listed. The " civil registration act" states that its directors have national powers and review appeals. Perhaps the Op should look into this.

If it helps I have a Thai friend in UK and she lived there many years and Australia before. She lost her Thai ID down the years and was told she needs to have an address in Thailand in order to get her Thai ID card again. She is a UK citizen but wants to retire in Thailand one day.

from OP:

3rd time: August 2014 -Don Muang District Office (Pathum Thani)

While doing my marriage registration at the Don Muang district office (apparently they are more sophisticated here and can issue the marriage certificate instantly),

I asked about my house registration situation, and the fact that my mother is Thai.

I was received much better here, they even seemed happy to help me and started asking around and talking about it.

I asked them about the age requirement, they basically said.. "Oh yea that.. yeah it makes things hard.. but whatever we can do it"

The one officier there was very knowledgeable, and told me it can be done.

They completely understood my situation, and said older farangs (30+) do this all the time, it's definitely possible.

However, I do not own any property in Don Muang district, so they cannot assist me.

Are you certain they said/meant "own" any property? For other Immigrations purposes, like getting extensions, you can only report to the Immigrations office for the area of your residence. Would renting an apartment to establish your residence in the area of jurisdiction for the Pathum Thani office be sufficient?

Are you certain they said/meant "own" any property? For other Immigrations purposes, like getting extensions, you can only report to the Immigrations office for the area of your residence. Would renting an apartment to establish your residence in the area of jurisdiction for the Pathum Thani office be sufficient?

OP does not have an immigration issue, he has an house registration (as Thai national) issue.

Since OP does not live or own in Don Muang, the local amphoe could not help.

Ooops. Well, that one flew right past me.

But, only land owners can obtain passport/citizenship? Can't he rent a house or live with someone and be put on their house registration? Just seems a bit restrictive to only process land owners for passport/citizenship, but well, TiT.

But, only land owners can obtain passport/citizenship? Can't he rent a house or live with someone and be put on their house registration? Just seems a bit restrictive to only process land owners for passport/citizenship, but well, TiT.

Yes that is what OP should do. It is a case of Amphoe officers not wanting to do their duty for someone that in their view is not Thai.

Actually I only need to know somebody in the Don Muang area, which would be willing to put me in their house book.

Since I don't know anybody in that area, then that means I need to purchase some property (such as a condo) and then obtain a house book from that property.

I would have to put the property in my Wifes name, and then later have my mother enter the house and then I can follow her.

As initially stated, I would be willing to pay a nice sum to a Thai owner in the area for temp house access.

But it's pretty hard to find someone willing to help, specially regards to their house book.

___________

Thank you all for the suggestions and experience.

Looks like I will prepare additional documents and revisit my own districts Amphoe with my Mother again and see what happens from there.

Edited September 23, 201411 yr by sprbda

Actually I only need to know somebody in the Don Muang area, which would be willing to put me in their house book.

Since I don't know anybody in that area, then that means I need to purchase some property (such as a condo) and then obtain a house book from that property.

I would have to put the property in my Wifes name, and then later have my mother enter the house and then I can follow her.

As initially stated, I would be willing to pay a nice sum to a Thai owner in the area for temp house access.

But it's pretty hard to find someone willing to help, specially regards to their house book.

___________

Thank you all for the suggestions and experience.

Looks like I will prepare additional documents and revisit my own districts Amphoe with my Mother again and see what happens from there.

That is one option, the other is that you rent somewhere else with the stipulation that the owner gets you registered at the Amphoe. The house does not need to be owned for one to be registered. You can get more information at the central house register office in Bangkok.