Your thought about the Visa Crack down

[TheSpade]

I had a similar situation. Took a visa rum van to get non-immigeant b visa and 70% were working.

Visa runs are legal but lying on application is illegal.

I think the visa run companies know that 70% of their passenger are working illegal and they are making this easy.

But Thailand is also making it possible when they allow them in repeatedly ib tourist visas.

I agree most of the teachers working illegal would prefer to work legal.

People say the language school teachers are the people working illegal but I never saw a philipino at a language school.

It's not the visa run company, which is essentially a mini van service, to scrutinize their passengers.

Thai immigration is allowing people to come in and out of the country knowing full well many of them are probably working illegally.

The sole responsibility needs to be with Thailand to stop letting companies employ illegal workers not persecute the workers who work illegally because they have no choice.

Only the employer can apply for the work permit so there's little the employee can do if they want to work in order to feed their families.

[brianp0803]

I have heard legal English teachers complain about their salary and the school responded - we can get a philipino to replace you for less money.

I wonder if they planned to get work permit for the lower paid philipino teacher.

The crackdown may either reduce the number of philipino teachers or get them a better salary with work permits.

I hope for better salaries and work permits for valued employees.

If there is a minimum salary to employ foreign teachers then most philipino teachers are not being paid a legal wage.

Whose fault?

[KittenKong]

Sounds good. In that case you can get yourself a Thailand Elite Card and stay for as long as you like. Very easy, very quick.

That doesn't suit you? Then you will just have to either come here as a "normal" short-duration tourist, or try another country altogether that may be less fussy about who they let stay for long periods. But there aren't too many of these in the region.

No interest in shelling out 500K on a visa that you can't even guarantee will not get changed ot accepted further down the line. Also don't plan to settle down in Thailand forever.

You can stay in Phils for up to 3 years without leaving, pick up a 12 month business visa (you don't even need a business) on arrival at Cambodia and Vietnam gives back to back 90 day visas with no limit.

Personally I'm not interested in back-to-back 90 day visas and prefer paying my 1900B once a year for my Thai retirement extension. But it's great that you seem to know exactly what your options are and need only get on with it.

There are several countries I would like to visit (India for a start) but I dont go because of the visa obstacles they put in my way. It's their decision, and you wont see me crying about it: I'll just go somewhere else where they do want me and my money.

[larsjohnsson]

They don't know exactly where these people work and stay. Let's say that I was a illegal working teacher. Do you belive I would tell them that when I made a visa/border run? And my real address instead of just writing down a hotel name?

Your wrong about that. If you have a smart phone they know where you are and I guarantee your on facial recognition and every time you go in a mall or on the BTS and walk city streets they will track you down in time with Google map cloud technology. Now you can be identified by ear and gant recognition.

All passport photos worldwide along with other federal and state ID's along with Facebook photos end up in a facial recognition program.

Even if your phone is off, new technology in new smart phones pulls energy from Wi Fi signals to give it enough power to check you out with voice and camera, along tracking you.

If you want privacy, toss the computer, smart phone, old cell phone, go off the grid and live in a cave!

You must be kidding. They don't even know if I have a smartphone!! Or what number I have!! So how can they trace me?

[larsjohnsson]

My only annoyance is the fact Bangkok Immigration does not always follow the current written rule of law regarding visa retirement extensions when applying with the combination foreign income and Thai bank fixed savings account option. For years they set a precedent and suddenly without warning changed the rules shocking the Bangkok retirees. Other offices, as I understand still follow the old rules.

I understand we are under Marshall Law and that orders can supersede written rule of law which leads to confusion and many surprises for retirees that have lived and paid taxes here for years only to find their extension denied and they are forced to leave and start the process all over again.

Many of the Immigration offices are not consistent in their decisions regarding the above.

I have lived here for 9 years and over the years have asked 4 law firms questions regarding visas and in most cases when I was instructed regarding time limits on bank letters, early application submitting, and income verification Embassy letters, In most cases I was given inaccurate information. I always had to do the work myself to get satisfactory results for my timelines. I've even submitted recent Thai law to a lawyer who was not aware of time limit changes on Embassy income verification letters from 15 days to 6 months. They still tell customers if the letters are over 15 days they have to go back and spend a fair amount of money to get a current letter. It is all very frustrating.

Oh well, I still love the country! Compared to most countries today, my frustrations are very minor. The pluses far out way the negatives.

I often think about how many expats are forced to leave and monthly I see less and less customers in high end bars and restaurants.

I wonder what the high tourist season will be like with a worldwide economic retreat?

I feel sorry for the visa run companies who provided such great services over the years. Seems small businesses are taking a hit worldwide.

You are wrong again. They don't tell people to come back with a new income letter if it's older than 15 days. I have many friends that used 2-3 month old letters without problem Edited September 22, 2014 by larsjohnsson

[Zlabermacht]

paz, on 22 Sept 2014 - 03:19, said:

kurce, on 22 Sept 2014 - 03:05, said:

So 70% of those on my mini van run we're working here illegally.

Have to catch them at there place of employment, not going to catch them at the border.

If anything, it should be the employers exploiting illegal workers in need that should be caught first.

But they are not, guess why,

My answer is, because this is Thailand and they are Thai people.

Illegal workers are still living better lives than back to home.

[khunerik]

A lot of you seem to be confused. Border runs have NOT been made illegal.

Not everyone is old enough to retire. Not everyone wants to get married to a Thai or work in the kingdom (who would!), nor invest into dodgy property, deal with the headaches of running a business, nor waste 500k on an elite card that may or may not be valid in a years time.

So let's not pretend there are lots of great options for long term stay for the young, single, and well off enough not to need a 'regular' 9-5 job. The only real 'long term' option is the ED visa otherwise you need to do back to back tourist / border runs which means going in and out the country continuously.

It's you that seems to be confused. You seem to think that the Thai government is obliged to issue a visa to fit your particular circumstances. They are entitled to issue visas to whatever group of people they want. If you don't fit into any of the groups that they issue visas to then they obviously don't want you.

It's the Bwana Entitlement Syndrome all over again.

The main requirement for a visa to a country anywhere in the world, I guess that would include Thailand, is that you can proof that you will not be a burden to the country.

Nothing to do with fitting in a particular group.

Of course you need to fit in a particular group to qualify for many/most visas here.

With some visa you need to be retired and over 50.

Some need to be married to a Thai or have Thai kids.

Others need to do volunteering work.

Studying is another group.

Religion, research, media and so on are other Groups to get a visa........

Edited September 22, 2014 by khunerik

[Zlabermacht]

TheSpade, on 22 Sept 2014 - 04:06, said:TheSpade, on 22 Sept 2014 - 04:06, said:

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Zlabermacht, on 22 Sept 2014 - 02:48, said:Zlabermacht, on 22 Sept 2014 - 02:48, said:

The Spade, you propose to shut down the sex industry to solve the farang ki nok problem but you are joking of course, why renounce to a 3% ot the gross national product when you can sacrify a 0.x% of it just not allowing some individuals to come there anymore... its way more logical and better what they are doing now, I think you were joking sorry if I did not grasp your sarcasm

But these new visa rules won't stop drunks, trouble makers, criminals and the like from making Thailand their home.

Well at least it will be less easy for them to stay, and way easier for authorities to kick them out!

kurce, on 22 Sept 2014 - 03:05, said:kurce, on 22 Sept 2014 - 03:05, said:

Personally I can't see the visa crackdown having any affect whatsoever on weeding out those working here illegally.

I recently did a mini van border run to Cambodia to get another 15 days whilst waiting for my paperwork from school to be completed.

Of the ten people in the van 7 of them from the Philippines are all working here illegally as English teachers. The other two were simply tourists activating their 2nd entry for tourist visas.

Whilst sitting at the border waiting for the formalities to be completed I overheard them complaining about the recent crackdown and how difficult it will now be for them to continue getting tourist visas to continue working here.

I felt like having a crack at them, explaining that you are the reason for the crackdown, so thank you for making it more difficult for everyone else wanting to stay here and not work illegally. Had to travel back with them for 5 hours so thought it best not to make enemies.

So 70% of those on my mini van run we're working here illegally.

Have to catch them at there place of employment, not going to catch them at the border.

Cheers.

You've obviously been in Thailand too long and are starting to adopt Thai logic if you thought the workers are the problem.

Do you think these Fillipinos want to work here illegally, break the law, have to do visa runs every month, get lesser pay, and risk jail?

No of course they don't.

The reason they have no work permit is because their employer won't apply for one because the employer doesn't want to do the paper work, pay for it, or have to pay legal wages to them.

There's nothing they can do other than not work and if they don't work they'll probably starve and not be able to support their family.

None of them willingly want to be in that situation it's just they have limited options.

The problem lies with their employers and they should be targeted. It can't be hard to track them down.

Well, but Filipinos (and Burma, Lao, Khmer) are not Thai people and nobody asked them to come to work here!

If you target employers you follow the path took decades ago in your beloved West from its illuminate governments and its great logic, i.e. punishing always and only own citizens. I think, social justice must be applied within the nation, not in harm to it! Yes maybe I also stayed in Thailand too long and I was contaminated with their buffalo way of thinking, am I?...

I think they are taking a good path, without need to punish anyone really. Filipinos will be less and less available on the job market, employers will need to really invest on those they need and not to hire them because and only if they are cheap, and Filipinos working here themselves will benefit of the new situation, in the form of better wages and rights.

Thailand must think first to Thai people, I come from a place where under 30 unemployment is over 40%, many young people would like to earn a living and not be a plague and a shame to their families and nation by doing humble jobs, but those are not available because they are all took from low cost foreigner workers and employers are often fined and have troubles, but you know, they have to support their family too, so they risk and take the 'easy' way of hiring them.

Well then, the more far Thailand keeps its policies and reasoning from all this, the better for Thailand and for me as well.

Many illegal workers and visa runners are making jobs reserved to Thais. They are really harming to Thai nation, lowering wages standard and taking out resources.

Again, I am happy with the way Thai government is doing and I think you should better think and know the matter before criticizing... bye

Edited September 22, 2014 by Zlabermacht

[Badbanker]

Sadly, a majority of the problems in visas and immigration come down to a lack of policing the law. Yes I am talking about corruption!

Under present conditions, the idea of police officers fulfilling their duties by regularly checking on schools and other places of work, is unthinkable.

This is also to say nothing of immigration officials that legally should check on the authenticity of married couples and retirees stated visa situations!

The present government seems to be intent on cleaning up things and trying to get people to do their job.

We have all lived in this lax state of policing for a long time. It has been 26 years of heaven for me!

If the present government remains in power for a couple of years as it is tipped to, we should maybe getting ready for some more changes?

The OP has been hurt by changes and we do understand the problems that you are going through.

My opinion is it is not going to markedly change in the future as the NCPO seems to be committed to immigration reform.

[jspill]

Well, but Filipinos (and Burma, Lao, Khmer) are not Thai people and nobody asked them to come to work here!

Many illegal workers and visa runners are making jobs reserved to Thais. They are really harming to Thai nation, lowering wages standard and taking out resources.

Thailand actively recruits cheap migrant labor.

Thai unemployment rates are extremely low, 0.7%. No Thais are struggling because of migrant workers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Thailand

[Zlabermacht]

jspill thanks for letting me know the existence of wikipedia, lol

I am perfrctly aware of both things and guess what? my opinion still stands.

[Zlabermacht]

Except you should better say 'Thai smugglers', not 'Thailand', about the human trafficking.

[TheSpade]

Well, but Filipinos (and Burma, Lao, Khmer) are not Thai people and nobody asked them to come to work here!

Are you joking?

If these people didn't come to Thailand then who would sweep the streets, build the condos, collect the garbage, tend to the gardens, wash the dishes, fish, do the manual labor and so on?

Not to mention the Fillipinos are needed to teach Thai kids English as there's not enough Thai's who can speak it well enough to teach others

These are jobs that most Thais do not want so they need these people to do them.

Thailand already has near to full employment anyway and it's NOT hard for a Thai to get a job so these people aren't stealing jobs from locals.

The illegal workers rarely find themselves with reasonable jobs but doing what's left because locals don't want to do them.

It's simple supply and demand.

Thailand needs these people as much as they need the jobs.

[me313]

It's a parallel to the small drug dealer crackdown that's going on in Thailand: making it all corporate, small players getting kicked out so larger corporate-based operations can move in to the new open territory. Animal Kingdom, don't forget the basis of competition.

[wayned]

I live in the sticks in Nakhon Sawan Province and they have actually cracked down on foreign workers and their employers around me.

The car wash next in the small village has basically closed since they were raided about a month ago and after that all of the Burmese workers left. They are only open sporadically when they can find help, usually high school kids on the weekend, but school is about to close.

The Army and police raided the gravel pit near me and gave the owner 1 month to get everybody legal - also Burmese. They have been living there with their families (7 in all) for years. They came back last week and the owner hadn't done anything so they shut her down. My wife says that the Burmese have visas but not the correct paperwork to work there. They continue to live there but the men climb in a pickup every morning to work somewhere else not yet affected. The owner can not get Thais to work due to the conditions and what she is willing to pay.

If they did the same with all employers that have people working illegally the abuse of the system would lessen. The abuse is the effect, not the cause.

[brianp0803]

Selective enforcement.

As mentioned before they know where there are many illegal workers bet they are providing important role.

But if someone doesn't like someone then they can cause problems.

Pantip plaza hast been checked by police and very little copyright software being sold.

Language schools have many illegal teachers

Thau Language schools have thousands of students but only a few classrooms and a few teachers. If your don't have enough staff or room for your students then they are a visa farm.

Prostitution is illegal but can't find them. LOL.

Many of the day labors don't have proper paperwork. Either too difficult or transient work force.

[hhgz]

I think it's a great idea. It's a needed affirmation that it is a privilege, not a right, to be in another country. Too, that the laws of other countries must be respected. Finally, the argument that it's OK to break laws because it "improves the economy" is absurd.

[jcisco]

They know exactly that these Foreigner made all efforts to stay legally in the country.

The people doing multiple back-to-back visa runs presumably haven't made much effort, if any, to stay in the country legally.

There are many ways of being legal here: retirement extensions, marriage extensions, work permits, investment visas, even the Thailand Elite Card for anyone under 50 who who cant stand the idea of being married or working. Those who chose not to opt for one of those legal methods ended up doing back-to-back visa runs and finally by being targeted at the border, which should come as no real surprise to anyone.

Can tell what experience and demographic you have with the visa system of relevance and applicable to you. You missed the huge demographic of those who simply require the ability to stay for long periods of time, not working illegally, or behaving otherwise illicitly. Those people, generally will need to do u-turns every few weeks or months to keep staying here.

And those who do so are not breaking the law, and it is wrong to assume that back to back visa runs is any indication as to the character or activities of individuals or groups.

[KittenKong]

There are many ways of being legal here: retirement extensions, marriage extensions, work permits, investment visas, even the Thailand Elite Card for anyone under 50 who who cant stand the idea of being married or working.

You missed the huge demographic of those who simply require the ability to stay for long periods of time, not working illegally, or behaving otherwise illicitly. Those people, generally will need to do u-turns every few weeks or months to keep staying here.

No, I didn't. The Thailand Elite card is specifically designed for them.

....it is wrong to assume that back to back visa runs is any indication as to the character or activities of individuals or groups.

I wasn't aware that I had. I just pointed out that legal options are available for all of them, except the impecunious, and I imagine that Thailand is not very interested in attracting the latter anyway.

[jcisco]

There are many ways of being legal here: retirement extensions, marriage extensions, work permits, investment visas, even the Thailand Elite Card for anyone under 50 who who cant stand the idea of being married or working.

You missed the huge demographic of those who simply require the ability to stay for long periods of time, not working illegally, or behaving otherwise illicitly. Those people, generally will need to do u-turns every few weeks or months to keep staying here.

No, I didn't. The Thailand Elite card is specifically designed for them.

....it is wrong to assume that back to back visa runs is any indication as to the character or activities of individuals or groups.

I wasn't aware that I had. I just pointed out that legal options are available for all of them, except the impecunious, and I imagine that Thailand is not very interested in attracting the latter anyway.

The elite card is hardly specially designed for them, how did you come to the conclusion that a PRODUCT for the wealthy is an appropriate avenue for the discussed demographic. Or is this a case of money talks and therefore the ability to stay at length is reserved for high liquidity individuals.

However more to the point, it would be extremely poor policy to have such a taxpayers burden as the elite card make up a component of the visa system. Now outside that single product which is not apart of the regular visa system, what options are available?

How does one go about obtaining a visa for extended long stay, that will avoid doing u-turns, so that one may not risk being tarnished being around the have nots??

Edited September 23, 2014 by jcisco

[KittenKong]

The elite card is hardly specially designed for them, how did you come to the conclusion that a PRODUCT for the wealthy is an appropriate avenue for the discussed demographic. Or is this a case of money talks and therefore the ability to stay at length is reserved for high liquidity individuals.

However more to the point, it would be extremely poor policy to have such a taxpayers burden as the elite card make up a component of the visa system. Now outside that single product which is not apart of the regular visa system, what options are available?

How does one go about obtaining a visa for extended long stay, that will avoid doing u-turns, so that one may not risk being tarnished being around the have nots??

I dont decide what's available; I'm just pointing out what the options are. And like it or not there are valid and legal long-stay options for every type of law-abiding person except the impecunious.

From that I assume that Thailand simply does not want long-staying foreigners who don't have adequate and visible finances.

[elliss]

Really has nothing to do with terrorists/ criminals. They can always run a background check on people as they initially enter the country.

Thailand has been a haven for criminals , scroungers , etc , for a long tome.

The new regime which I applaud , should be running more background checks on foreigners,

entering, and those resident in the Kingdom .

Nothing to hide = Nothing to fear.

Edited September 23, 2014 by elliss

[jcisco]

The elite card is hardly specially designed for them, how did you come to the conclusion that a PRODUCT for the wealthy is an appropriate avenue for the discussed demographic. Or is this a case of money talks and therefore the ability to stay at length is reserved for high liquidity individuals.

However more to the point, it would be extremely poor policy to have such a taxpayers burden as the elite card make up a component of the visa system. Now outside that single product which is not apart of the regular visa system, what options are available?

How does one go about obtaining a visa for extended long stay, that will avoid doing u-turns, so that one may not risk being tarnished being around the have nots??

I dont decide what's available; I'm just pointing out what the options are. And like it or not there are valid and legal long-stay options for every type of law-abiding person except the impecunious.

From that I assume that Thailand simply does not want long-staying foreigners who don't have adequate and visible finances.

Actually you entirely sidestepped the argument by ignoring the fact that the Elite card does not fit into the actual immigration policy. Please answer me which visa does one apply for, and not which product one may purchase, which intended for a very small percentage of eligible people. And the application for this card is also at the discretion of the company selling the card, so hardly the catch all your trying to push it as.

There must be some secret to the visa thing, I'm keen to hear it.

[brianp0803]

Maybe Thailand's officials are thinking you are welcome to work in needed occupations

You are welcome to retire here.

You are welcome to live with a thai husband/wife.

You are welcome to visit Thailand as a tourist.

You are welcome to study areas unique to Thailand.

I think officials no longer believe most long term "tourist" are good for the country.

Most people that don't work for long periods of time are not contributing to society.

Maybe good if long term tourist are encouraged to start working.

I think the number of people in their 30's that have enough income to live a few years without working is very small.

The elite visa is for them

Why do they need a visa class for poor people that don't want to work?

Good for Thailand?

[KittenKong]

Actually you entirely sidestepped the argument by ignoring the fact that the Elite card does not fit into the actual immigration policy. Please answer me which visa does one apply for, and not which product one may purchase, which intended for a very small percentage of eligible people. And the application for this card is also at the discretion of the company selling the card, so hardly the catch all your trying to push it as.

Everything to do with visas and entry into the country is at the discretion of immigration or a consulate or someone. So I really don't see what your argument is.

The Thailand Elite card does give you a long visa for which you pay, just as I pay for my retirement extension. The price for the Thailand Elite card is much higher, but so are the prices of many things.

[larsjohnsson]

Really has nothing to do with terrorists/ criminals. They can always run a background check on people as they initially enter the country.

No they can't. Do you belive the immigration here have acces and can look in every countries and persons criminal record ? Where can they check my background when I enter the country ? Edited September 25, 2014 by larsjohnsson

[brianp0803]

I think paying for an educational visa will be the easiest and cheapest for a while.

I think the threat of checking attendance or actually learning Thai will disappear.

I saw a school offering extra hours for the same price - make immigration happy.

Schools can increase offered hours to satisfy immigration requirements without increasing cost.

As long as attendance is below 10% they can increase hours without incurring additional cost of staff or classrooms .

This will keep educational visa cheap.

[TheSpade]

I think officials no longer believe most long term "tourist" are good for the country.

Most people that don't work for long periods of time are not contributing to society.

Maybe good if long term tourist are encouraged to start working.

I think the number of people in their 30's that have enough income to live a few years without working is very small.

The elite visa is for them

Why do they need a visa class for poor people that don't want to work?

Good for Thailand?

Many people in their 20s and 30s no longer have to work traditional jobs and make a living online.

They can afford to go abroad or travel for extended periods of time without having to go home. And are often making income as they go.

How can someone with no income, no job, have money to come to Thailand at all?

Flights and visa alone would probably be out their reach.

Anyone who's here for extended periods of time can obviously afford to be here.

And it's not for you to decide who contributes to society or not.

This is 2014 we no longer live in the gold old days where everyone left school and got a trade and worked till they were 65 where at that point if they were lucky enough still to be alive and have some meager savings they could retire abroad.

[kenscreativesolutions]

Catching illegal teachers should be very easy: immigration officers just need to walk in a language school on a Saturday and ask to see the work permits.

Asking "visa-runners" to show how they earn their living would be legitimate; assuming they are all criminals is not.

But crackdowns are only part of solving the problem. Paying teachers enough would ensure an adequate supply of qualified ones. And they should lift the restrictions on types of employment for foreigners married to Thais.

Scavenger's right. The easiest way to catch illegal workers is at their workplace. That way, genuine tourists are not affected. The authorities can catch the culprits red-handed.

The authorities should come down hard on such employers also. It takes two to tango. Without them employing foreigners illegally, the problem would be reduced and opportunities would open up for those seeking legitimate employment.

Just my two cents.

[kenscreativesolutions]

Really has nothing to do with terrorists/ criminals. They can always run a background check on people as they initially enter the country.

Thailand has been a haven for criminals , scroungers , etc , for a long tome.

The new regime which I applaud , should be running more background checks on foreigners,

entering, and those resident in the Kingdom .

Nothing to hide = Nothing to fear.

I agree. We should applaud measures to keep lawbreakers out of the Kingdom. Law abiding people should have nothing to fear.