Your thought about the Visa Crack down

[dBrown]

Its ok to have a foreigner owned business if you have enough thai staff

No it's not.

If you have enough Thai staff you can get a work permit, but you still can't own your business.

I think language school teaches contribute to Thailand.

If you true, then why is it difficult for them to get work permits?

If you need 4 Thai staff for each work permit it is difficult, because you don't need 4 Thai cleaners for every foreigner that can teach a language, and try to find a Thai that can function as a teacher for foreigners.

Edited September 21, 2014 by dBrown

[sustento]

A lot of you seem to be confused. Border runs have NOT been made illegal.

Not everyone is old enough to retire. Not everyone wants to get married to a Thai or work in the kingdom (who would!), nor invest into dodgy property, deal with the headaches of running a business, nor waste 500k on an elite card that may or may not be valid in a years time.

So let's not pretend there are lots of great options for long term stay for the young, single, and well off enough not to need a 'regular' 9-5 job. The only real 'long term' option is the ED visa otherwise you need to do back to back tourist / border runs which means going in and out the country continuously.

It's you that seems to be confused. You seem to think that the Thai government is obliged to issue a visa to fit your particular circumstances. They are entitled to issue visas to whatever group of people they want. If you don't fit into any of the groups that they issue visas to then they obviously don't want you.

It's the Bwana Entitlement Syndrome all over again.

[dBrown]

A lot of you seem to be confused. Border runs have NOT been made illegal.

Not everyone is old enough to retire. Not everyone wants to get married to a Thai or work in the kingdom (who would!), nor invest into dodgy property, deal with the headaches of running a business, nor waste 500k on an elite card that may or may not be valid in a years time.

So let's not pretend there are lots of great options for long term stay for the young, single, and well off enough not to need a 'regular' 9-5 job. The only real 'long term' option is the ED visa otherwise you need to do back to back tourist / border runs which means going in and out the country continuously.

It's you that seems to be confused. You seem to think that the Thai government is obliged to issue a visa to fit your particular circumstances. They are entitled to issue visas to whatever group of people they want. If you don't fit into any of the groups that they issue visas to then they obviously don't want you.

It's the Bwana Entitlement Syndrome all over again.

The main requirement for a visa to a country anywhere in the world, I guess that would include Thailand, is that you can proof that you will not be a burden to the country.

Nothing to do with fitting in a particular group.

[TheSpade]

A lot of you seem to be confused. Border runs have NOT been made illegal.

Not everyone is old enough to retire. Not everyone wants to get married to a Thai or work in the kingdom (who would!), nor invest into dodgy property, deal with the headaches of running a business, nor waste 500k on an elite card that may or may not be valid in a years time.

So let's not pretend there are lots of great options for long term stay for the young, single, and well off enough not to need a 'regular' 9-5 job. The only real 'long term' option is the ED visa otherwise you need to do back to back tourist / border runs which means going in and out the country continuously.

It's you that seems to be confused. You seem to think that the Thai government is obliged to issue a visa to fit your particular circumstances. They are entitled to issue visas to whatever group of people they want. If you don't fit into any of the groups that they issue visas to then they obviously don't want you.

It's the Bwana Entitlement Syndrome all over again.

No you are confused. Not me.

I don't think I am entitled to a visa that suits my circumstances at all. Thailand can do as it pleases and I have to abide by their rules if I want to stay there (currently I'm not there btw)

I'm just pointing out that the guys continually banging on about how there's "plenty of legit visa options for everyone" or that "border runs are illegal" are talking nonsense

It's not that Thailand doesn't want certain types of people (digi nomads for example). Thailand doesn't even know they exist.

[KittenKong]

The people doing multiple back-to-back visa runs presumably haven't made much effort, if any, to stay in the country legally.

There are many ways of being legal here: retirement extensions, marriage extensions, work permits, investment visas, even the Thailand Elite Card for anyone under 50 who who cant stand the idea of being married or working. Those who chose not to opt for one of those legal methods ended up doing back-to-back visa runs and finally by being targeted at the border, which should come as no real surprise to any

If going on a suicide 12hr mini van mission every 30 days putting your life in the hands of a yabba'd up lunatic driver just to remain in Thailaland isn't "much effort" then I don't know what is.

A ridiculous comment that completely ignores the meaning of my post, and the post I was replying to. The effort to be made is that involved in obtaining legal permission to stay here long-term, and that is what these people haven't done. As I pointed out many options are available, and the only people who are completely excluded are the impecunious, who presumably have no valid reason to be here anyway and are the most likely to be working illegally.

And even if we continue with your comparison, I suppose those who drive themselves to the border or take a luxury limousine also put a lot of effort into it? Give me a break.

Again, border runs are LEGAL. This was and is LEGAL. They are abiding by the law. They haven't done anything wrong. Hence why Thai immigration stamps them in and out day after day.

A lot of you seem to be confused. Border runs have NOT been made illegal.

You miss the point. Foreigners do not have some sort of automatic right of entry here. It's up to immigration whether or not they let you in and for how long. So yes, border runs are legal and it is equally legal to refuse anyone entry without giving a reason.

[TheSpade]

The effort to be made is that involved in obtaining legal permission to stay here long-term, and that is what these people haven't done. As I pointed out many options are available, and the only people who are completely excluded are the impecunious, who presumably have no valid reason to be here anyway and are the most likely to be working illegally.

And even if we continue with your comparison, I suppose those who drive themselves to the border or take a luxury limousine also put a lot of effort into it? Give me a break.

Border runners HAVE legal permission to stay in Thailand. It is perfectly legal to do a border run. Hence why Thai immigration stamp them in and out.

Only recently it was announced there would be a clampdown / limit to them but it's still perfectly legal to do them.

The fact that now anyone with a history of doing border runs, something that was perfectly legal and allowed, is going to be scrutinized is a bit of a joke.

And yes many people doing border runs are working illegally and THAT should be stopped but tarring all border runners with the same brush as being illegal workers or criminals as so many are doing is plain wrong.

Clamp down on the schools that allow people to work at them without a work permit not on people who are doing nothing wrong and happen to do some border runs to extend their stay - something which is perfectly legal.

What constitutes a valid reason to be in Thailand?

I go there because I like it.

I don't work there, I'm not married to a local, I don't study there, I down own a business, and I'm not retired there.

I just like it, have money to spend, don't get any benefits or freebies from Thailand and I don't do anything illegal,

Same can't be said for most TV'ers based on the 'First day in LOS' thread as 99% spent their first night in the kingdom with a hooker - prostitution is illegal.

Thailand would be better clamping down on the whoremongers who are destroying it's global reputation first than chasing away young people with money to spend.

Is my reason valid enough for you?

[brianp0803]

I think good Thailand government is realizing unlikely someone is a tourist for 2+ years.

Realizing someone getting a visa to study Thailand and be immersed in thai language should be able to communicate quickly. Presumably not limiting learning thai to class time.

Border runs are legal. Lying each on the application form about the reason is illegal.

Each time a person does a border run Thailand has the opportunity to say no.

Is a language school teacher teaching English to thai students without a work permit "more illegal" than a digital nomad working illegal?

Why can't language school teachers get work permits?

Pay a school for the thai lessons 4 hours a week and can stay in Thailand but language school teachers can't get permission?

The number of young independently wealthy people relaxing in Thailand for a few years and not working is probably very small. Most wealthy people are busy trying to get richer.

[iamariva1957]

"If they do wrong, than arrest them".

Maybe they should look towards arresting the people who run the visa run services for aiding and abetting.

That's absurd. Until the crackdown. the visa runners weren't breaching any rules that were being actively enforced - they were lining up to get stamps that were willingly placed in their passports by Thai Immigration and contributing to the economies of a couple of border towns in the process. I'm not thrilled about the way this crackdown has been implemented either, but to paint visa runners as criminals is way OTT.

And in case you're wondering, I've had two tourist visas, no back-to-back 30-day exemptions and zero land border entries in the last 4 years. I'm now here on an extension of stay based on retirement till Sept 2015 when I fully intend to apply for a further 12 month stay. In short, I have no interest in the visa run industry and no need for their services, but I dont see that they've done anything illegal.

Obviously your sarcasm detector is not functioning.

Saying that if no laws were being broken why the need for the crackdown ?

Ok - you got me but we both know that there are some here who genuinely believe the visa runners are criminals. The crackdown was supposed to target illegal workers - and I accept that some of those were/are visa runners - and deliberate recidivist overstayers. If anything, the people lining up for stamps were at least making an attempt to play Immigration's game - albeit without applying for the appropriate visa. The problems only started when someone in power sat up one morning and thought 'Aaah - maybe it's time we started enforcing a few of our own rules'.

The main targets of the crackdown were originally supposed to be Russians, Koreans and Vietnamese - not sure how many of those folk ever got in a minibus for the kamikaze run to the border but hopefully Immigration met its quota for 'undesirables' and we can get back to the days of a bored IO taking a quick glance at our passports before waving us through.

That will happen again in the near future I think. Hell it is a boring job anyway, especially as teh Tea Money ploy has been religated to the far back burner for the moment. But time will tell. We can only abide by the 'new' rules for now and play along and be treated as we have always been by the authorities (good and bad) and hope for the best. But following the rules is the name of the game and has always been. I am just glad that the Over Stayers have been put on notice and do not have such an easy time right now clearing their status. I mean they could have avoided it by simply buying and consulting a calender for God's sake!

[paz]

Its ok to have a foreigner owned business if you have enough thai staff

Not OK. Generally speaking foreigners cannot own business, if they do is by using nominees and other loopholes.

The rule is that if there is enough Thai stay staff, business can hire foreigners.

[zeichen]

"You mean arrest the Thai immigration officials who are stamping you in and out the country, surely? How is someone who runs a mini van company doing anything wrong? And doing border runs isn't actually illegal. Never has been. Still isn't now. No one is breaking any laws. This is something Thai Immigration allows to happen"

The people running the mini vans aren't always driving people to do border runs. Some of these agencies take a pile of passports to the border and get them stamped. It is a service and it is illegal.

2nd is the fact that people do border runs for months and years on end because they are working here without the right visas or work permits.

We are not talking about legitimate tourists who come on holiday for 3-6 months. We are talking about people that are using the tourist visa border runs in order to live here. I have the same gripe with ED visas. People who study Thai for years and cannot speak a full sentence.

I commend any government that makes policies that protect the rights of the people. Personally, I feel if all the freelance workers, part time hacks and cowboys trying to extend their holiday by working under the table left the country, salaries would increase for those that are legitimately qualified.

[paz]

The people running the mini vans aren't always driving people to do border runs. Some of these agencies take a pile of passports to the border and get them stamped. It is a service and it is illegal.

That is just your unfounded accusation. That practice ended years ago because corrupt officers doing it have been busted - as well their foreigner clients.

The rest of your posting is just the usual rant about "anybody else in Thailand that is not me" and I will avoid even commenting it.

[Thunderbirds20]

This whole visa run thing has never made sense to me. I did one once, years ago, .... it cost 2,000 baht. We got dropped at a seedy restaurant for na hour while they went to get visas for Cambodia in our passports, (which accounts for 1,300 baht of the 2,000 baht fee!!) I can just see Cambodia bowing and thanking Thailand for this stupid policy! Thailand makes nothing, It was bad enough when it was every 30 days, but every 15 is just a sign that they really do not want us here! Why make it so a person has to spend 4,000 baht every 30 days and waste two days as well? Why not let everyone report to Immigration ..... then they have as much control as they want and can charge 1,500 baht for each renewal, ..... a real revenue bonanza, ...but this is Thailand and that would be logical and make sense, ... better for the tourists, ... better for the Government. ... make more jobs for Thais and leave the Cambodians with nothing!

[paddyjenkins]

Catching illegal Russians workers is so easy that you have to not want to catch them if you don't.

Take a walk down walking street any night of the week, plenty of blond haired slappers shaking their asses yards from the so called tourist police.

Please don't tell me they are legal.

Sorry, but I take offense at your comment. I happen to be one of those blond haired slappers and I have every right to shake my ass just yards from the tourist police if I so please and I often do. It's why I come to Thailand in the first place. And I would add that I have a perfectly legitimate visa.

[sustento]

A lot of you seem to be confused. Border runs have NOT been made illegal.

Not everyone is old enough to retire. Not everyone wants to get married to a Thai or work in the kingdom (who would!), nor invest into dodgy property, deal with the headaches of running a business, nor waste 500k on an elite card that may or may not be valid in a years time.

So let's not pretend there are lots of great options for long term stay for the young, single, and well off enough not to need a 'regular' 9-5 job. The only real 'long term' option is the ED visa otherwise you need to do back to back tourist / border runs which means going in and out the country continuously.

It's you that seems to be confused. You seem to think that the Thai government is obliged to issue a visa to fit your particular circumstances. They are entitled to issue visas to whatever group of people they want. If you don't fit into any of the groups that they issue visas to then they obviously don't want you.

It's the Bwana Entitlement Syndrome all over again.

The main requirement for a visa to a country anywhere in the world, I guess that would include Thailand, is that you can proof that you will not be a burden to the country.

The main requirement for a visa to a country anywhere in the world is whether that country is willing to issue one. The assumption that a country has to issue visas to anyone just because they wouldn't be a burden is false.

[paz]

This whole visa run thing has never made sense to me. I did one once, years ago, .... it cost 2,000 baht. We got dropped at a seedy restaurant for na hour while they went to get visas for Cambodia in our passports, (which accounts for 1,300 baht of the 2,000 baht fee!!)

Actually a Cambodia visa is USD 20, less than 650 baht. Don't be fooled by the fact you paid in Baht.

I can just see Cambodia bowing and thanking Thailand for this stupid policy! Thailand makes nothing, It was bad enough when it was every 30 days, but every 15 is just a sign that they really do not want us here!

G7 countries citizens get 30 days at the border, not 15.

Why make it so a person has to spend 4,000 baht every 30 days and waste two days as well?

Normally, people doesn't do that, they get longer term visa or extension of stay.

[dBrown]

A lot of you seem to be confused. Border runs have NOT been made illegal.

Not everyone is old enough to retire. Not everyone wants to get married to a Thai or work in the kingdom (who would!), nor invest into dodgy property, deal with the headaches of running a business, nor waste 500k on an elite card that may or may not be valid in a years time.

So let's not pretend there are lots of great options for long term stay for the young, single, and well off enough not to need a 'regular' 9-5 job. The only real 'long term' option is the ED visa otherwise you need to do back to back tourist / border runs which means going in and out the country continuously.

It's you that seems to be confused. You seem to think that the Thai government is obliged to issue a visa to fit your particular circumstances. They are entitled to issue visas to whatever group of people they want. If you don't fit into any of the groups that they issue visas to then they obviously don't want you.

It's the Bwana Entitlement Syndrome all over again.

The main requirement for a visa to a country anywhere in the world, I guess that would include Thailand, is that you can proof that you will not be a burden to the country.

The main requirement for a visa to a country anywhere in the world is whether that country is willing to issue one. The assumption that a country has to issue visas to anyone just because they wouldn't be a burden is false.

So why they wouldn't want to consider issuing a visa to a foreigner that they know will only financially add the country, regardless of which "group" he belongs to?

After all isn't that what tourism is about, bringing foreign currency into the country?

Could it be because they don't like foreigner, since they are one of the only few known xenophobic countries in the world?

Edited September 21, 2014 by dBrown

[KittenKong]

What constitutes a valid reason to be in Thailand?

I go there because I like it.

I don't work there, I'm not married to a local, I don't study there, I down own a business, and I'm not retired there.

I just like it, have money to spend, don't get any benefits or freebies from Thailand and I don't do anything illegal,

Sounds good. In that case you can get yourself a Thailand Elite Card and stay for as long as you like. Very easy, very quick.

That doesn't suit you? Then you will just have to either come here as a "normal" short-duration tourist, or try another country altogether that may be less fussy about who they let stay for long periods. But there aren't too many of these in the region.

[paz]

So why they wouldn't want to consider issuing a visa to a foreigner that they know will only financially add the country, regardless of which "group" he belongs to?

They do, for example one year extension of stay for 10M Baht investment, of 5 years visa when paying half a million baht (that also gives airport rides in luxury cars).

[sustento]

So why they wouldn't want to consider issuing a visa to a foreigner that they know will only financially add the country, regardless of which "group" he belongs to?

Could it be because they don't like foreigner, since they are one of the only few known xenophobic countries in the world?

They're so xenophobic they let many westerners enter their country for 30 days without even needing to apply for a visa. Try that as a Thai going to the UK for a month's holiday.

If you want xenophobia try getting a visa to Saudi Arabia.

[sustento]

So why they wouldn't want to consider issuing a visa to a foreigner that they know will only financially add the country, regardless of which "group" he belongs to?

After all isn't that what tourism is about, bringing foreign currency into the country?

You can apply for and be given a triple entry tourist visa at the Royal Thai Embassy in London without any problem at all. It will allow you to stay in Thailand for 9 months if you get your timing right.

[flyingdoc]

Has the suggested 30 day Visa exempt add-on for 1,900 baht actually come into effect?

[paz]

Has the suggested 30 day Visa exempt add-on for 1,900 baht actually come into effect?

Yes.

[Zlabermacht]

My impression is that what Thailand really wants is to enhance the quality of the foreigners staying here, both economically and in general (education, behaviour, human contribution to the Thai society etc.), and I personally think that discouraging a system used to avoid a deeper check of the applicant (like a proper Visa allows) is very good news to the Thai people and to those granted a Visa to Thailand.
Not only a spare minority of proper criminals, illegal workers and own countries' fugitives, but also alchoholists, homelesses or mentally deficient people cheating own countries' welfare to live like dropouts in Thailand, whore addicted bums, and generally poor devils with no name to live in Thailand whatsoever.
In other words: it is just a way to better check who Thailand wants, as to stay in a foreign country its not a right and its not always and not only a matter of money.
I have seen the quality of many western foreigners staying here and I am happy about this.
Even more, I hope they will be soon better checking ED Visa applicants as well, like properly testing their actual knowledge of what they study, and establishing more strict requirements.
I know this will be definitely not popular, but I was asked my opinion and these are my 5 satang.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Zlabermacht

[Zlabermacht]

brianp0803, on 21 Sept 2014 - 18:09, said:brianp0803, on 21 Sept 2014 - 18:09, said:

Its ok to have a foreigner owned business if you have enough thai staff

I hear rumors most language school teachers don't have work permits and do visa runs.

I think most teachers would prefer to be legal.

I think language school teaches contribute to Thailand.

If you true, then why is it difficult for them to get work permits?

Is the school lazy or not paying taxes to qualify to issue work permits.?

Transient workers?

No degree?

Legal minimum 50,000 Baht Thai?

And of course the other things you mentioned, but secondly.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Zlabermacht

[hawker9000]

My view sir

If it stops criminals/terrorists from living in Thailand illegaly, then so be it.

"If it stops criminals/terrorists from living in Thailand illegaly"

Oh, the "it's my view" game. What fun! Well ok then. As long as we're playing with only one brain cell according to this view, simply forbid ALL foreigners from entering the kingdom (and expel the ones that are already there). Problem solved, right? Yeah! I win!

[kurce]

Personally I can't see the visa crackdown having any affect whatsoever on weeding out those working here illegally.

I recently did a mini van border run to Cambodia to get another 15 days whilst waiting for my paperwork from school to be completed.

Of the ten people in the van 7 of them from the Philippines are all working here illegally as English teachers. The other two were simply tourists activating their 2nd entry for tourist visas.

Whilst sitting at the border waiting for the formalities to be completed I overheard them complaining about the recent crackdown and how difficult it will now be for them to continue getting tourist visas to continue working here.

I felt like having a crack at them, explaining that you are the reason for the crackdown, so thank you for making it more difficult for everyone else wanting to stay here and not work illegally. Had to travel back with them for 5 hours so thought it best not to make enemies.

So 70% of those on my mini van run we're working here illegally.

Have to catch them at there place of employment, not going to catch them at the border.

Cheers.

[paz]

So 70% of those on my mini van run we're working here illegally.

Have to catch them at there place of employment, not going to catch them at the border.

If anything, it should be the employers exploiting illegal workers in need that should be caught first.

But they are not, guess why,

[TheSpade]

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The Spade, you propose to shut down the sex industry to solve the farang ki nok problem but you are joking of course, why renounce to a 3% ot the gross national product when you can sacrify a 0.x% of it just not allowing some individuals to come there anymore... its way more logical and better what they are doing now, I think you were joking sorry if I did not grasp your sarcasm

But these new visa rules won't stop drunks, trouble makers, criminals and the like from making Thailand their home.

Personally I can't see the visa crackdown having any affect whatsoever on weeding out those working here illegally.

I recently did a mini van border run to Cambodia to get another 15 days whilst waiting for my paperwork from school to be completed.

Of the ten people in the van 7 of them from the Philippines are all working here illegally as English teachers. The other two were simply tourists activating their 2nd entry for tourist visas.

Whilst sitting at the border waiting for the formalities to be completed I overheard them complaining about the recent crackdown and how difficult it will now be for them to continue getting tourist visas to continue working here.

I felt like having a crack at them, explaining that you are the reason for the crackdown, so thank you for making it more difficult for everyone else wanting to stay here and not work illegally. Had to travel back with them for 5 hours so thought it best not to make enemies.

So 70% of those on my mini van run we're working here illegally.

Have to catch them at there place of employment, not going to catch them at the border.

Cheers.

You've obviously been in Thailand too long and are starting to adopt Thai logic if you thought the workers are the problem.

Do you think these Fillipinos want to work here illegally, break the law, have to do visa runs every month, get lesser pay, and risk jail?

No of course they don't.

The reason they have no work permit is because their employer won't apply for one because the employer doesn't want to do the paper work, pay for it, or have to pay legal wages to them.

There's nothing they can do other than not work and if they don't work they'll probably starve and not be able to support their family.

None of them willingly want to be in that situation it's just they have limited options.

The problem lies with their employers and they should be targeted. It can't be hard to track them down.

[brianp0803]

I had a similar situation. Took a visa rum van to get non-immigeant b visa and 70% were working.

Visa runs are legal but lying on application is illegal.

I think the visa run companies know that 70% of their passenger are working illegal and they are making this easy.

But Thailand is also making it possible when they allow them in repeatedly ib tourist visas.

I agree most of the teachers working illegal would prefer to work legal.

People say the language school teachers are the people working illegal but I never saw a philipino at a language school.

[brianp0803]

They can go to language schools and asked for legal paperwork and large fines for the company for every illegal worker.

They can go to visa farm schools and ask for class attendance sheet. If average class attendance for the say is under 75% then fine the company. If schools required attendance to extend visas then students would attebd.

Attendance twice a week to be completely legal is an extremely small requirement foe a

student but many most feel that us too difficult

Make it unprofitable for the business to hire illegal workers. Maybe wages and quality will increase.