DNA samples to be sought of all Koh Tao residents

[xminator]

Is taking DNA samples from everyone on the island even legal? Seems like a human rights violation to me.

Also, far too little, far too late. The killers are long gone. They were probably gone by the time the bodies were found.

The police handling of this case from the very beginning has been nothing but gross incompetence.

No such thing as human rights violations in Thailand, especially when under martial law. The constitution has been suspended.

Keep in mind too that DNA testing also has the ability to identify relatives of the killers.

Its legal in most western democracies. During a murder investigation in my own country, everyone suspected of beeing out on town that night where called to the police for questioning and asked to give a DNA sample. Technically they asked, but given the consequence of not giving that sample, I suspect that it would look very suspect even if you said "I was home sleeping, but I dont want to give my DNA". Now this is some years ago, but it took 4 months to sort out who where the killer based on those samples.

The point is, get the samples and questioning done as soon as possible. Then find the match and build the case.

[2fishin2]

Even in the US there must be probable cause to obtain a DNA sample.

[StevieH]

just looked at seans twitter page, its interesting but there is no back up of why etc, hate to name someone only to be shown it isnt them. As for the death threats, a bit late after its been splashed all over the place, silly move while still on the island.

or possibly really brave.

[allan michaud]

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As I suggested on another thread they can discount those under 10 and those over 60. So now they can discount the farang and women of any age.

At the same time they need to trackdown every Asian male who left the island that day. And that won't be easy!

Can anyone tell me if Thai's have to provide ID, like farangs are supposed to, when registering at guesthouses/hotels? I think they are, in which case it may not be that hard. This is something that should have been done on day 1.

I am still of the opinion that the police know exactly who did it and it is a well connected local thug or visiting Hi So kids from Bangkok. The police actions have been nothing less than criminal IMO, they have gone out of their way to discount Thai's for a week and they have apparently not even tried to track down Thai's who were staying there at the time. While I know the RTP are pretty useless generally, I simply don't believe they are that incompetent.

[hughben]

Do they have the technology to find out using cellphone coverage who was on that island that day?

I know they can do it if they know your number, but maybe they have a system that would give you information on who was on the island with their phones or at least let you know who made calls/sent messages (which I would be sure the killers did) that day or night?????

Edited September 22, 2014 by hughben

[draftvader]

Do they have the technology to find out using cellphone coverage who was on that island that day?

I know they can do it if they know your number, but maybe they have a system that would give you information on who was on the island with their phones or at least let you know who made calls/sent messages (which I would be sure the killers did) that day or night?????

Absolutely no doubt about it. The network had this data on the day the bodies were found. I have no idea what kind of lifespan that data has around here. In Europe they have a mandatory minimum period (I don't know it off the top of my head) and an agreed legal avenue for requesting that data in cases like this. The process is efficient enough that they request the data quickly and have it quickly. It is this triangulated data that provides your "blip" on google maps when your GPS is off.

Also it would point out cellphones that stopped making their handshake within the time-frame of the time of death to body discovery. Those people hold suspicion. HOWEVER this data is of limited use as they have only just started to request ID for pre-paid SIMs for Thai nationals recently. There are a large amount of people with SIMs that were purchased before this change.

[almafudd]

My guess is that the "It can't be thai" attitude, allowed the killer to flee the island. Spit samples should be collected from anyone at the island as soon as the police where alerted about the murder.

Would you trust the bib with your dns sample? I wouldn't and I also think it's against international law to force people to provide dna samples?

[blowin]

My guess is that the "It can't be thai" attitude, allowed the killer to flee the island. Spit samples should be collected from anyone at the island as soon as the police where alerted about the murder.

Would you trust the bib with your dns sample? I wouldn't and I also think it's against international law to force people to provide dna samples?

No I would not trust them(police) with my mother inlaw ! If I was innocent to a major crime as this one I would be only to glad to HELP by giving what ever the investigators needed to try catch the scum that did this. DNA is a mapping system and it will eventually led the investigators to the family and finally persons especially if local. I so much want to see these scumbags caught and the people that are protecting them.

[stephen terry]

Yep, robbery the night before on the same beach. Two girls most likely threatened if they went to police. Next night same enactment, except DM put up a fight, and then it turned violent. Any weapon near to hand, a hoe. After that, no limit violence by drug induced? thugs. The gang is known. Arrest them, wherever they have fled to.

[beautifulthailand99]

If gangsters can seemingly act with impunity on what is a small island where apparently everyone knows everybodies business then what hope is there for Thailand. This is a good opportunity for the Junta to clean up Koh Tao in the same way they have done Phuket.

[lucaswallachia]

Yep, robbery the night before on the same beach. Two girls most likely threatened if they went to police. Next night same enactment, except DM put up a fight, and then it turned violent. Any weapon near to hand, a hoe. After that, no limit violence by drug induced? thugs. The gang is known. Arrest them, wherever they have fled to.

Then why was David naked. yet his shoes and clothes were still on the beach?

[over2you]

If I was the killer I would of fled to Cambodia by now and paid off the local authorities there so they would hide me.

The Thai authorities are so incompetent.

You are assuming that those that did it could afford such an expensive payoff. Also if I were a police officer right now I would be on my best behaviour, not to mention such a high profile catch in support of the current Prime Minister would do a lot for ones career in the police right now.... Taking a bribe now on this specific crime.... would be VERY short-sighted....

Correct.

BUT .............

If "he/she/they" have been taking big bribes in the past.

They are on the pay roll already.

The fear of being exposed, together with the consequences of falling foul of the Mafia, may possibly overcome any thoughts of glory.

Historically Police Forces in some Countries were obliged to set up Special Units to lock up the "Big Fish"

America - the 'Untouchables'

England - London Met - had to set up a select special squad of 'clean officers' to convict The Krays.

Corruption together with arrogant self pride, laziness, incompetence and a logic that defies analysis.

As I always tell mates who come out to Thailand for the first time.

Law-wise here, you are on your own.

This is the Wild West. (Except it's the East) 5555

* Foreseeing likely comments. I will add that my 15 years in Thailand have been mainly wonderful.

There is corruption in every walk of Life in every Country.

But I think Thailand must be up there among the clear leaders in corruption.

IMHO

[greenchair]

They did that for a murder case in a small town in england (Ithink) every male in town turned up to test voluntarily. Except one. That's how they knew. He was brought to justice.

Keep up the investigation, and good luck i hope will come to the thai police who are working so hard.

If anybody notices a whole family trying to leave the island suddenly. Please tie them up and call the police.

[over2you]

They did that for a murder case in a small town in england (Ithink) every male in town turned up to test voluntarily. Except one. That's how they knew. He was brought to justice.

Keep up the investigation, and good luck i hope will come to the thai police who are working so hard.

If anybody notices a whole family trying to leave the island suddenly. Please tie them up and call the police.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Pitchfork

Really is worth reading.

The first use of the DNA testing was to prove TWO murders of girls were connected - same semen in them.

The second use was to free the bloke they had locked up charged with the second of the 2 murders. (Not his semen)

Later used to convict the real killer.

[cacruden]

In the US they have employed DNA sampling when the pool of people to be tested is limited. They ASK if they can, most people say yes because of the nature of the crime and they have nothing to hide. Some refuse (which is their right) but the investigation at that point usually focuses on those that refuse because those that take it get filtered out. Sometimes you narrow it down to a paternal line of a family and can calculate roughly within so many generations - which may also narrow the pool considerably.

[tbthailand]

Will they sample ALL Koh Tao residents?? ....including all those of the 3 main families?....

C'mon......!!

or the Yai selling moo ping along the side of the road?

The complete incompetence of the police is out there for all to see - and they even announce it themselves.

[Snookyville]

Yep, robbery the night before on the same beach. Two girls most likely threatened if they went to police. Next night same enactment, except DM put up a fight, and then it turned violent. Any weapon near to hand, a hoe. After that, no limit violence by drug induced? thugs. The gang is known. Arrest them, wherever they have fled to.

Then why was David naked. yet his shoes and clothes were still on the beach?

Yesterday I posted this in a different thread on the subject:

There is a lot of speculation about David being naked. In my opinion an explanation could be that David went back, met Hannah near the beach and decided to have a swim. So he went for a quick skinny-dip while she watched clothes and flip-flops etc. While in the water, the perpetrators arrived. Maybe things were even still friendly at the time as Hannah recognized one of the guys she just smoked a cigarette with. They might only have noticed Hannah as single easy target with David out in the dark, out in the water. When things went sour, David must have started screaming and running out of the water. Got clubbed over the head a couple times then got dragged back into the water to drown, or was already thought to be dead. Hannah must have been terrified being held by Perp 1 while Perp 2 was brutally killing David. They possibly did not even have to threat her much after seeing what they did to him.

[partington]

It takes 50 plus man hours for one tech to run one sample through one set of prepared instruments, if all procedures are properly adhered to and proper documentation is made.

How many people are on Koh Tao?

Anybody?

I thought from what you posted previously that you had a good handle on the procedure, but this is a little bit misinformed.

You do not have to process samples consecutively, and so you are in error to suppose that you simple multiply the time taken for one sample by the number of samples to get total duration.

Assays are done in multiplex form in 96 well trays.The DNA preparation and clean up is also done simultaneously in multiplex form, by pipetting samples into multi well trays and processing them all simultaneously, so you do not simply multiply the time taken for one by the number of samples to calculate time taken. 20 takes longer than one, but not 20 times longer!.

Depending on the number of individual wells used per sample, (a 'sample' is now a person as these are individual profiles on single people's DNA and not multiple swabs from a crime scene) you could easily do more than 20 people per tray:

Let's say 3 profile wells per person - the assays give the complete profile from one well, but you would run at least two to be safe, and three to be certain (this being cheek swab DNA, it will be both high quality and high quantity, so results on any single well are unlikely to be ambiguous) Then for comparison per tray around: 4 negative control wells, 4 standard known profile samples, 2 peak size ladders to help read the peaks. This gives 10 control wells, and 86 spare wells for samples. If it's 3 wells per person that's nearly 30 people. These are rough numbers but not unlikely ones.

If you process multiple trays and have more than one PCR machine and ABI sequencer, as nearly every major lab does, there is no reason why you cannot run 40 or 60 samples through the process at a time.

The only part that does need to be done consecutively rather than simultaneously is the reading of the peak heights of the profile in each well on the ABI sequencer. Each sample takes 30 minutes or so but many labs now have more than one sequencer, or single sequencers that have 6 capillaries, so can read 2-6 samples at a time. Moreover, once the sample trays are loaded on the sequencer, reading is automatic-the machine unsupervised will go through sample after sample all night, storing the peaks on attched computers. A single night on two machines, even those reading one sample at a time, would read 60 sample wells.

So the process time for say 50 samples is absolutely NOT 50 times the time one takes! It would be quite feasible to do 30-60 people in 60 hours or so. If they use multiple forensic labs both in Bangkok,and centres in Australia, Hong Kong , Singapore and so on, this could be increased to 100's per day.

Edited September 22, 2014 by partington

[swindonabroad]

They did that for a murder case in a small town in england (Ithink) every male in town turned up to test voluntarily. Except one. That's how they knew. He was brought to justice.

Keep up the investigation, and good luck i hope will come to the thai police who are working so hard.

If anybody notices a whole family trying to leave the island suddenly. Please tie them up and call the police.

Think this is the case you are reffering to- http://www.independent.co.uk/news/christmas-day-killer-trapped-by-dna-test-1143922.html

It was in Yate, a good friend of mine was tested. The female had been seen in the company of a male aged 18-30 and the police asked residents to voluntarily come in to rule themselves out.

[paddyjenkins]

Even in the US there must be probable cause to obtain a DNA sample.

Nonsense...they request and. you give, no problem....they ask, you refuse, you are on the prime suspect list

[2fishin2]

Even in the US there must be probable cause to obtain a DNA sample.

Nonsense...they request and. you give, no problem....they ask, you refuse, you are on the prime suspect list

Only in 11 states can you be forced to submit involuntary DNA samples. Who gives a rats ass about a PSL if you have committed no crime? Point being here is that they are taking DNA from everyone in a wide sweeping force and loss of human rights. Oh thats right this is Thailand,the people here have no rights. Sorry, my mistake.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Snookyville]

If they use multiple forensic labs both in Bangkok,and centres in Australia, Hong Kong , Singapore and so on, this could be increased to 100's per day.

Beijing Institute of Genomics (BIG) acquired 128 sequencers in 2010 alone. Bought Complete Genomics in 2012 and are now churning out machines of their own design. Not much closer than the other centres though, except maybe Australia.

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/2014/05/chinese-dna-sequencer-challenge-foreign-dominance

[animatic]

Is taking DNA samples from everyone on the island even legal? Seems like a human rights violation to me.

Also, far too little, far too late. The killers are long gone. They were probably gone by the time the bodies were found.

The police handling of this case from the very beginning has been nothing but gross incompetence.

Whether this is legal at home is not the question,

but whether anyone bothered to legislatively consider this invasion of privacy here.

Thing is a blank DNA screening might not find the culprit ON island, but if he is connected to local families, then a familial link could be clearly shown and point at the young male family member who is NOT at home but was until recently.

I would think at that point, even in Cambodia or elsewhere a DNA match would allow a long term chase with out end.

Not the same as Chalerm's sons for instance. Besides the fact no one on K. Tao has the kind of Pink Rolls Royce clout of a Chalerm.

[HeijoshinCool]

If they use multiple forensic labs both in Bangkok,and centres in Australia, Hong Kong , Singapore and so on, this could be increased to 100's per day.

Beijing Institute of Genomics (BIG) acquired 128 sequencers in 2010 alone. Bought Complete Genomics in 2012 and are now churning out machines of their own design. Not much closer than the other centres though, except maybe Australia.

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/2014/05/chinese-dna-sequencer-challenge-foreign-dominance

.

You have misattributed quotes ...

[HeijoshinCool]

It takes 50 plus man hours for one tech to run one sample through one set of prepared instruments, if all procedures are properly adhered to and proper documentation is made.

How many people are on Koh Tao?

Anybody?

I thought from what you posted previously that you had a good handle on the procedure, but this is a little bit misinformed.

You do not have to process samples consecutively, and so you are in error to suppose that you simple multiply the time taken for one sample by the number of samples to get total duration.

Assays are done in multiplex form in 96 well trays.The DNA preparation and clean up is also done simultaneously in multiplex form, by pipetting samples into multi well trays and processing them all simultaneously, so you do not simply multiply the time taken for one by the number of samples to calculate time taken. 20 takes longer than one, but not 20 times longer!.

Depending on the number of individual wells used per sample, (a 'sample' is now a person as these are individual profiles on single people's DNA and not multiple swabs from a crime scene) you could easily do more than 20 people per tray:

Let's say 3 profile wells per person - the assays give the complete profile from one well, but you would run at least two to be safe, and three to be certain (this being cheek swab DNA, it will be both high quality and high quantity, so results on any single well are unlikely to be ambiguous) Then for comparison per tray around: 4 negative control wells, 4 standard known profile samples, 2 peak size ladders to help read the peaks. This gives 10 control wells, and 86 spare wells for samples. If it's 3 wells per person that's nearly 30 people. These are rough numbers but not unlikely ones.

If you process multiple trays and have more than one PCR machine and ABI sequencer, as nearly every major lab does, there is no reason why you cannot run 40 or 60 samples through the process at a time.

The only part that does need to be done consecutively rather than simultaneously is the reading of the peak heights of the profile in each well on the ABI sequencer. Each sample takes 30 minutes or so but many labs now have more than one sequencer, or single sequencers that have 6 capillaries, so can read 2-6 samples at a time. Moreover, once the sample trays are loaded on the sequencer, reading is automatic-the machine unsupervised will go through sample after sample all night, storing the peaks on attched computers. A single night on two machines, even those reading one sample at a time, would read 60 sample wells.

So the process time for say 50 samples is absolutely NOT 50 times the time one takes! It would be quite feasible to do 30-60 people in 60 hours or so. If they use multiple forensic labs both in Bangkok,and centres in Australia, Hong Kong , Singapore and so on, this could be increased to 100's per day.

.

I'm traveling so I don't have time for a detailed response, but based on what I have learned, Thailand does not have the capability to perform the way you describe.

Testing is complicated, and my knowledge of it is based on working with techs, not as a tech myself, so I try to keep things simple here. But other than Thailand's capabilities, I have no issue with your post.

[wellred]

Hopefully this topic just became redundant

Do you mean because of Sean? Hope so. THe longer this takes the more I feel it won't be solved.

[JacChang]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Is taking DNA samples from everyone on the island even legal? Seems like a human rights violation to me.

Also, far too little, far too late. The killers are long gone. They were probably gone by the time the bodies were found.

The police handling of this case from the very beginning has been nothing but gross incompetence.

Maybe martial law > Human rights.

[partington]

It takes 50 plus man hours for one tech to run one sample through one set of prepared instruments, if all procedures are properly adhered to and proper documentation is made.

How many people are on Koh Tao?

Anybody?

I thought from what you posted previously that you had a good handle on the procedure, but this is a little bit misinformed.

You do not have to process samples consecutively, and so you are in error to suppose that you simple multiply the time taken for one sample by the number of samples to get total duration.

Assays are done in multiplex form in 96 well trays.The DNA preparation and clean up is also done simultaneously in multiplex form, by pipetting samples into multi well trays and processing them all simultaneously, so you do not simply multiply the time taken for one by the number of samples to calculate time taken. 20 takes longer than one, but not 20 times longer!.

Depending on the number of individual wells used per sample, (a 'sample' is now a person as these are individual profiles on single people's DNA and not multiple swabs from a crime scene) you could easily do more than 20 people per tray:

Let's say 3 profile wells per person - the assays give the complete profile from one well, but you would run at least two to be safe, and three to be certain (this being cheek swab DNA, it will be both high quality and high quantity, so results on any single well are unlikely to be ambiguous) Then for comparison per tray around: 4 negative control wells, 4 standard known profile samples, 2 peak size ladders to help read the peaks. This gives 10 control wells, and 86 spare wells for samples. If it's 3 wells per person that's nearly 30 people. These are rough numbers but not unlikely ones.

If you process multiple trays and have more than one PCR machine and ABI sequencer, as nearly every major lab does, there is no reason why you cannot run 40 or 60 samples through the process at a time.

The only part that does need to be done consecutively rather than simultaneously is the reading of the peak heights of the profile in each well on the ABI sequencer. Each sample takes 30 minutes or so but many labs now have more than one sequencer, or single sequencers that have 6 capillaries, so can read 2-6 samples at a time. Moreover, once the sample trays are loaded on the sequencer, reading is automatic-the machine unsupervised will go through sample after sample all night, storing the peaks on attched computers. A single night on two machines, even those reading one sample at a time, would read 60 sample wells.

So the process time for say 50 samples is absolutely NOT 50 times the time one takes! It would be quite feasible to do 30-60 people in 60 hours or so. If they use multiple forensic labs both in Bangkok,and centres in Australia, Hong Kong , Singapore and so on, this could be increased to 100's per day.

.

I'm traveling so I don't have time for a detailed response, but based on what I have learned, Thailand does not have the capability to perform the way you describe.

Testing is complicated, and my knowledge of it is based on working with techs, not as a tech myself, so I try to keep things simple here. But other than Thailand's capabilities, I have no issue with your post.

OK, fair enough. I would hate to see your justified criticism of the way the authorities have handled this case topple over into mere prejudice...

Here is an account of forensic DNA capabilities in Bangkok from a Mahidol University report back in 2007:

http://www.forensic.sc.mahidol.ac.th/proceeding/49_Samart.pdf

"There are 6 government-supported DNA laboratories in the Bangkok area,[...]in Chulalongkorn hospital, Ramathibodi hospital, Siriraj hospital, Central Institute of Forensic Science, Royal Thai Police Office of Forensic Science, and the General Police hospital.[...]

Five out of the six DNA laboratories in Bangkok operate the entire process for the analysis of DNA evidence from the biological sample collection and recovery to the court. [...] Staffs in all laboratories hold qualifications in science and medical science, with experience working in forensic DNA analysis from 6 months to 26 years. Major equipments, which are thermalcyclers and DNA sequencers, are available in every laboratory. [...]Considering the number of DNA samples typed in 2006, a total of 11,000 DNA samples from criminal cases and paternity testing were analyzed. The number of samples being typed in each laboratory varies from 400 – 5,000 samples per year[...]"

There is no reason to suppose that these labs are unable to generate routine DNA profiles using STR polymorphisms that allow 100% certain identification matches between suspects. The STR profiling assays can be carried out using a kit that is just bought from a commercial supplier and is used world-wide.

I still think they made up the results of the tests that apparently showed the suspects to be Asian though, but that's another matter...

Edited September 22, 2014 by partington

[monk213]

It's probably been asked already, but why wait all of this time to start taking samples of DNA from the small island population? 'Yeah lets just give the murderers several days to get their stuff together, get cleaned up, have a foot massage and then leave on a ferry before we request DNA from everyone. Seems like a great plan.' Clowns

[monk213]

<double post, my bad>

Edited September 22, 2014 by monk213