Thai condo law question

[HidyHo]

I can emphasize with OP and I'm just a renter ...

I rent year long contract in lower Suk condo and have seen the effect of short term renters ... people going in and out of each other's units, multiple adults (or family) staying in small studio slamming doors, leaving trash outside the door, sometimes playing with kids on the hall way at late night, taking over the common facility, more ladies of the night coming and going, humping noise audible from the hallway (this I don't mind as much) and etc.

Other "owners" who live there (opposed to investors) must have been taking action as there are more clearer "no daily or weekly rental allowed" signs everywhere and less people at gym and pool hall area (or it's just not high season yet).

[kwaiYai]

We've just talked about this and he is very thankful for your replies.

He would certainly never snitch on anybody and if nothing can be done legally through the management committee then he will just sell and move out. Although now he is worried about where to move to, as we are surprised by so many similar experiences reported here.

If this is the way things are going then I'm even more glad that I sold my condos a few years back when prices were high!

[steven100]

another .. I have a friend ..

Welcome to Thailand ......

It appears the most favourable solution would be to move. ... that would be my choice.

[kwaiYai]

steven100 says "Welcome to Thailand...". He's lived in Thailand for about 25 years!

Things have changed a lot in recent years, as other posters seem to confirm.

[Vermor]

I m renting out two units in a condo in Phuket.
I m really surprise to read some people thinking that a condo would be "only for residents" in a tourist area...+ the fact that almost all agency are promoting them as investement.

Those complains looks like exactly the same you can have in your home country ! Noise, kids,...
Of course, it easier to get a quiet building in low season in a tourist area Now what if your building were full of (thai) long term resident ? It would be the same, and maybe worst than occasional tourist.

I believe that everybody should be able to do what he want with his units, as long as courtesy and understanding are present. I always tell my guests that this is a residential property, they should be quiete, and respect the house ryles, they can even be denied access to swimming pool or gym (keycard system) in case house rules are not respected...

Fabien.

[MobileContent]

Thanks for your replies. In answer to some of the questions raised:-

We don't know how he is getting customers, my friend thinks maybe he uses a Russian tour agency for the short stay holiday makers.

I'm sure this multiple condo owner isn't advertising a 'hotel' as such, or even considers it a hotel himself. We're saying that with the short stay rentals, of only a few weeks to vacationers, it has effectively become like a hotel within a condo apartment building. Of course vacationers don't have the same respect for the property as the owners do.

The main problems are noisy drunken behaviour, excessive use of pool, gym and sauna (causing increased electricity bills to be shared by owners) and rubbish and cigarette butts about the pool area.

The only 'security' I've seen at his condo is a skinny guy watching the parking lot!

I'll pass this advice on but I guess the answer is for him to sell up & move on! Its is a shame though, before all this it used to be a great place to live.

I don't understand this continuous mention of excessive use of gym and pool. The owner obviously pays his maintenance payments which allows use of the gym for the permitted amount of units he has. If it is a holidaymaker or resident, they can still use the facilities in the allotted times.

Good point. If the guy that bought 15% of all, units and pays of the maintenance fees for 15% of the total fee he should be fine.

This is Thailand. I wish I am able to rent by condo at 1500 Baht a day and collect 45k a month but I am just renting it for 15k a month and often late payment.

For the OP you should have buy a house.

[ToddinChonburi]

This guy is paying association dues all year on these condos that he owns correct, so lets look at it from a different angle. If the condos are only being used during the busy season then sounds like he is subsidizing everyone in the building the rest of the time. True or not ? I do not think you need to snitch on the guy but talking to management and the association board may help to solve some of the problems. take pictures if you can.

I only rent in my building but the same stuff is happening here. I started to take pictures and show the office lady, one day I told her she was losing control her. Suddenly the signs started popping up, NO DOGS IN THE POOL !!!! Lol yes I took a picture of a dirty dog swimming in the pool. Good luck .

[kwaiYai]

'Welcome to Thailand'.... 'This is Thailand'.....

That's two people reminding us we are in Thailand.

If my question had been "Where am I?" I'd be grateful for that answer. But I rarely get that hung-over these days.

As my question is about Thai condo law, being reminded TIT (i.e. anything goes) and 'why don't you buy a house?' isn't much help to my friend, or anyone else interested in this topic.

Edited September 26, 2014 by kwaiYai

[ggt]

There are no rules that I am aware of that would prevent an investor from renting a condo on a short term lease...I have rented them for 30 days to accommodate family members...this is normal business...what's the beef?

[kwaiYai]

ggt: Beef very fully explained. Please see above.

[KittenKong]

You do realise that we are talking about Russians here, right? If guards rebuke them for being noisy slobs (and in what language, by the way?) they'll kick the crap out of the guards just as soon as look at them.

Hmm. They dont do that in my building.

[KittenKong]

I believe that everybody should be able to do what he want with his units, as long as courtesy and understanding are present. I always tell my guests that this is a residential property, they should be quiete, and respect the house ryles, they can even be denied access to swimming pool or gym (keycard system) in case house rules are not respected...

If people behave properly there would be nothing to complain about, but apparently this is what is not happening in this case.

[KittenKong]

I only rent in my building but the same stuff is happening here. I started to take pictures and show the office lady, one day I told her she was losing control her. Suddenly the signs started popping up, NO DOGS IN THE POOL !!!! Lol yes I took a picture of a dirty dog swimming in the pool.

Your building is very lax. Animals are not permitted in my building at all, under any circumstances. I would not want to live in a building that did allow them in.

[Vermor]

I believe that everybody should be able to do what he want with his units, as long as courtesy and understanding are present. I always tell my guests that this is a residential property, they should be quiete, and respect the house ryles, they can even be denied access to swimming pool or gym (keycard system) in case house rules are not respected...

If people behave properly there would be nothing to complain about, but apparently this is what is not happening in this case.

Agree with that.

However, There is an AGM every year, where important decision can be made...you can even fire the management team and make your own team...if it has been voted.

I usually saw only a few owner that really are willing to change things. So..."go to the AGM !"

Those issues should be send to the committee members, and they would probably have to be discussed then make a vote in an AGM.

At least, the owner could request to add a topic about those issues for the next AGM.

(NOTE : I think, but not sure, you can even get an Extraordinary general meeting if you ve got a certain percentage, best way is to check Condominium Act.)

Edited September 26, 2014 by Vermor

[Vermor]

"Condominium Act (2008, found on internet so maybe it changed)

Section 42/2

In the case of necessity, the following persons shall have the right to summon an Extraordinary

General Meeting whenever required:

(1) The Manager,

(2) Board by its resolution exceeding a half of the Board Meeting,

(3) Joint owners of not less than twenty percents (20%) of the total votes of the joint owners signing

to make a letter requesting the Meeting to be convened for submission to the Board. In this case,

the Board shall arrange to have the Meeting convened within fifteen days from the date of receiving

such request. Should the Board fail to have the Meeting convened within such prescribed time, The

joint owners of the aforementioned number shall have the right to arrange to have such Extraordinary

General Meeting convened by themselves by appointing a person from them to be their representative

in issuing letters of summoning to attend the Meeting."

And AGM / voted, in Phuket, are all about who can be there or not ! So try to make decision when the russian owner cant be there !"
This is our democracy (yeah I hate it cause during AGM they made bad decision like this in my own condo as well...)

[hawker9000]

I'm rather disturbed at posters even considering the snitch camp.

The guy' is after all only trying to make an honest living.

Hey maybe he didn't even consider the effect of short termers....and after all it's probably very small.

Communicate or deal with it in-house I say, snitching brings you down far lower than his (possibly unrealised) lack of consideration.

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So be disturbed. It's NOT "honest" if he's not abiding by the immigration rules (for reporting stayers) and the tax laws. If this is the case, he's in effect intruding on the "quiet enjoyment" of other owners by infringing the law. If you WANT consideration, you have to SHOW consideration.

But if we're talking about Phuket, I'd say be a bit careful about just who you go to war with over something like this... It's not exactly the kind of place I'd like to be involved in real estate related disputes.

[Maestro]

...

Other options (assuming you can get a majority vote at the AGM which may be difficult if someone who opposes you owns many units) ...

Two important points to consider regarding voting, from the Condominium Act:

Section 45 In casting of votes, each joint-owner shall have the votes according to the ration of his ownership in the common property.

If one joint-owner owner has the votes more than half of the total votes, the number of votes shall be reduced to remain equivalent to the total votes of all other joint-owners.

...

Section 47 A co-owner may give a proxy vote for its unit but a proxy holder shall not be authorized to represent more than three condominium units.

...

[hawker9000]

...

Other options (assuming you can get a majority vote at the AGM which may be difficult if someone who opposes you owns many units) ...

Two important points to consider regarding voting, from the Condominium Act:

Section 45 In casting of votes, each joint-owner shall have the votes according to the ration of his ownership in the common property.

If one joint-owner owner has the votes more than half of the total votes, the number of votes shall be reduced to remain equivalent to the total votes of all other joint-owners.

...

Section 47 A co-owner may give a proxy vote for its unit but a proxy holder shall not be authorized to represent more than three condominium units.

...

But, WRT Section 45, if the meeting turnout is relatively small, it's still possible to have control of a vote if your votes represent the majority of those present. And it seems to me Section 47 actually facilitates this by limiting the proxy-holding ability of other owners who DO show up. No idea what quorum reqts, if any, are though.

[Maestro]

Any restrictions regarding the use of of private and common property in the condominium building would have to be included in the condomimium regulation. From the Condominium Act:

Section 32 The condominium regulations shall comprise at least the following essence:

...

(6) the use of private property and common property;

...

[BernieOnTour]

Is that condo in Kamala?

[kerrysum]

Thanks Delight. They have put some signs up which are largely ignored!

I was wondering if there is anything in the condo law to prohibit running a business of this scale using residential condo units?

There are a couple of business units in the building - a shop & a café. I thought you could only use the nominated business units of a condominium building to run a business?

Some owners of course rent their apartments when they are away, but this is usually long term, a few months or more, and those renters aren't generally a problem and he has nothing against that. It's the short stay, noisy, holidaymakers which are the problem.

I think what is happening pretty much around the world, even here in Las Vegas, NV. That is why I own a house here, and would never buy a condo....

Probably, overbuilt, couldn't sell, and then an investor bought them, and is renting them out.

kilosierra

[KittenKong]

Section 45 In casting of votes, each joint-owner shall have the votes according to the ration of his ownership in the common property.

If one joint-owner owner has the votes more than half of the total votes, the number of votes shall be reduced to remain equivalent to the total votes of all other joint-owners.

...

Section 47 A co-owner may give a proxy vote for its unit but a proxy holder shall not be authorized to represent more than three condominium units.

...

Interesting. The first clause preventing an overall majority is probably quite rarely applicable and certainly doesn't seem to apply in this case.

For the second clause, presumably there is nothing stopping the owner from having multiple proxies, each representing a maximum of three of his units (up to a total of 50% of the building)?

[Strangebrew]

Ah Quality tourist from Russia, What you don't want to support tourism in Thailand?

[thailand49]

Not taking the side of the owner who owns several units?

For any owner of a Condo even in Thailand, if you never paid attention the one most important document prior to any purchase is asking for a thing called a CC&R, even in Thailand there should be something very similar. These rules should outline how the Condo Complex should be run. It is usually run by a volunteer committee comprise of other owners which usually meet once a month? Any perspective buyer should be able to review the CC&R, and review and obtain a monthly accounting of funds. Usually the review of funds and distribution is a good indication to me at least how well run is the complex.

Whether the owner is renting to Russians etc.. is really not relevant to me at least as long as it is legal and how much the facility is use is also not relevant since if the renters were actual owners they would still be using the facilities of the Condo. What is relevant is that the owner pays his Association fees for each unit he/she owns.

If the renters is doing something harmful and dangerous then it should be reported at the meeting. This might simply be a language problem and the rules not being conveyed so if they are majority Russians maybe signs conveying the rules around the facility can be in Russians. The decision of whether the Association pays for sign-etc..can be decided in a vote or whether to ask the owner of these units to have a translation of these rules of the Condo facility be given when the units are rented.

It is a rule of thumb as least for me when I work in Real Estate is to find a well run Condo with a strong balance sheet to show my clients. The CC&R should answer many if not all the questions regarding whether the Units can be rented out in this manner and how to address the renters usage and behavior.

Getting down and dirty? If the owner is a foreigner there might be some questions as to ownership in regards to Thai ownership law? There might also be a issue whether the owner is paying taxes from profiting from the rentals and even their Immigration status. My rule of thumb if one digs deep enough you normally will find something? Now what you do is another thing?

Currently there are a number of forms of renting going on outside of Thailand very similar to this but any agreement made by the owner can't ever circumvent the CC&R in place of a Condo Complex. Any owner purchased sign and agree to these terms when they purchase!

Good luck,,

Edited September 27, 2014 by thailand49

[Toany]

Short Term rental (under 1 month) is illegal in a condominium. In my condo they are taking a person to court for this. It is the Juristic office that has to do this. So you really have to become active with the other owners and do things through the committee.

I think you are likely to have less problems with people renting for at least a month. In my condo they made it compulsory to register all visitors and tenants must be registered. Then you know what is happening.

Good luck. It is not easy to do. But in my condo everyone is against short term rentals.

[KittenKong]

Whether the owner is renting to Russians etc.. is really not relevant to me at least as long as it is legal and how much the facility is use is also not relevant since if the renters were actual owners they would still be using the facilities of the Condo.

Actually there is a difference.

Owners in residence tend to use the pool a little. Owners not in residence wont be using the pool at all, of course, and in my building there are many units where the owner only comes for a couple of weeks a year or less. Some owners in residence just dont like swimming and so never use the pool.

But short-term renters with children often seem to be surgically attached to the pool from dawn till closing time. So the general impact they make is much greater in proportion.

Personally I would happily vote for an hourly fee for pool use in my building so that everyone pays in accordance with the costs they actually create. The same applies to other facilities.

[cheeryble]

Short Term rental (under 1 month) is illegal in a condominium.

Hello Toany

Short term rental illegal?

I'd be interested to see the statute saying that.

Perhaps you mean it ias been banned under the regulations of your particular condo?

(Also unlikely as it requires a 50% vote....but possible).

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[Delight]

The Condo Act does state:

Section 17/1

In the case where a space in the condominium is set aside as a place to carry out the business, the system on entering and exiting such area shall be specifically set up in order to prevent the disturbance on the peaceful enjoyment of the joint owners.

No person shall be permitted to engage in any trade transactions in the condominium except it is a trade transaction in the area of the condominium designated in accordance with paragraph one.

Q Is renting out a room a ‘trade transaction’?

Also renting out the room is not actually the problem.

The co –owners who rents out a room also ‘rents out’ the common area-without the permission of the other co –owners.

[thailand49]

Whether the owner is renting to Russians etc.. is really not relevant to me at least as long as it is legal and how much the facility is use is also not relevant since if the renters were actual owners they would still be using the facilities of the Condo.

Actually there is a difference.

Owners in residence tend to use the pool a little. Owners not in residence wont be using the pool at all, of course, and in my building there are many units where the owner only comes for a couple of weeks a year or less. Some owners in residence just don't like swimming and so never use the pool.

But short-term renters with children often seem to be surgically attached to the pool from dawn till closing time. So the general impact they make is much greater in proportion.

Personally I would happily vote for an hourly fee for pool use in my building so that everyone pays in accordance with the costs they actually create. The same applies to other facilities.

The difference is with you just as you pointed out Russians... How often a owner use or not use the facility is not relevant it is not stated in the CCR or when the purchase was made! Just not relevant and can't hold water in a court of law unless it is stated in the CCR. Your other suggestion wouldn't hold up in a court of law in the States. Aside from your personal views and dislike of what is going on it really has no bearing unless it is a violation of the CCR, unless it was stated at the time of purchased. Sure you can vote and pass but if I was a buyer and had personally brought into a Condo because I love swimming and the workout facility and was sold as unlimited use and now you change the rules without any substantial proof that my overuse of the pool and the other facility your condo president would be hearing from my lawyer!

I suggest you leave your personal likes or dislike out of the equation and stick with what is legal!

Edited September 27, 2014 by Maestro
Fixed quote tags.

[thailand49]

The Condo Act does state:

Section 17/1

In the case where a space in the condominium is set aside as a place to carry out the business, the system on entering and exiting such area shall be specifically set up in order to prevent the disturbance on the peaceful enjoyment of the joint owners.

No person shall be permitted to engage in any trade transactions in the condominium except it is a trade transaction in the area of the condominium designated in accordance with paragraph one.

Q Is renting out a room a ‘trade transaction’?

Also renting out the room is not actually the problem.

The co –owners who rents out a room also ‘rents out’ the common area-without the permission of the other co –owners.

This particular section is basically means as least to me if I rent out a room to someone who end up turning that room into selling clothes like a store front etc.. with people coming and going which violating the possible safety or quiet enjoying of the other tenants or owners.