Expats complaining about about other expats that dont have proper visas.

[mango66]

if you read all this posts about visa rules and work permit,

it seems most of posters have problems to do this things here correct;

Maybee a rename of the forum - Thai Visa rule brakers !!

or to give them an own forum !!

[cacruden]

I think its correct way of a good citicen to announce such wrongdoers;

Assuming you're not a Thai pretending to be in a visa situation, you are not a citizen and you likely never will be because the Thais that control the system do not want you. You will always be a guest at most, and possibly an unwanted one even with the correct visa.

You think we are stupid as we take care for correct visas,

and to be a correct guest in this country;

The correct visa is all about giving you the peace of mind. If I were an employer I would not hire someone that was not legal, but having dealt with immigration departments in 4 countries (sometimes as an employer and sometimes as a worker), it is typically all a game. Bureaucrats tend to try and break things down into titles and short descriptions where you fit nicely into a category. Working in the IT industry, the DOT title description typically has little to do with reality (it might have been that way 40 years ago, but with the diversity of functions it does not work that way anymore). It has become a game of trying to fit the description to match a description in the government documentation so that someone that does not understand the industry will not reject the visa request based on a very narrow definition. In my home country (Canada) the only thing I really think are important about an immigrant is - are you being paid more than the prevailing wage for a local employee.... if yes -- then some employer thinks you are an asset to their company which tells me you are likely going to be an asset as a worker.

Any who cheat the visa system,

cheats also all people living with correct documents in this country;

Employment is never a zero-sum game. It is a very unscientific way to view things. Each employee, whether legal or illegal, is beneficial to the overall economy. A country has every right to determine who they want to work / be in the country. Remember a few months ago when the government had people running to the border (Cambodia) because they were afraid of the crackdown? How all of a sudden there was a panic about how it would damage the economy and they had to fix the situation? The lenience of dealing with "illegals" has been part of the way the system works here in Thailand. The focus should be to get rid of those that are involved in criminal activity (scams, fraud, etc.) -- but just because you are "legal" does not make you a virtuous individual. The quality of the average westerner is lower here - and there are plenty of legally documented people that are part of this problem.

[dotpoom]

Live and let live.

[mikiea]

yea , yea , i represent dat yea :-)

[mango66]

As long as these people don't hurt or cheat others, I would never grass them out.

I've been taught not to mess with other people's livelihood.

So you like that this people dont pay tax,

instead use all public financed by tax communities,

street, Metro, higway, park, what ever,

piss in the public toilet, and you pay for cleanup!

Did you mean this ??

[DoctorB]

On 10 August, on another very well know Thailand oriented website, the topic of the lack of mutual support among Westerners here was discussed.

The following observation was made:-

"The one and only media outlet that has the reach to promote the position of Westerners in Thailand is the largest online discussion forum. With a greater reach amongst foreigners than the local newspapers and TV I believe many (perhaps subconsciously) look to it for leadership. What they get is a forum riddled with schadenfreude (malicious pleasure at the misfortune of others) and sanctimoniousness (acute self-righteousness)."

That's your answer I'm afraid.

[mango66]

I'm still confused by the title in the OP.

If someone does not have the correct visa to stay here, would they still be classed as an expat?

I would call them illigals and criminals

and handle them accordingly !!

Penalty, money. prison,

and banned for 1 century - not to be to bad :-))

[brain150]

I'm still confused by the title in the OP.

If someone does not have the correct visa to stay here, would they still be classed as an expat?

I would call them illigals and criminals

and handle them accordingly !!

Penalty, money. prison,

and banned for 1 century - not to be to bad :-))

Perfectly brainwashed and a good slave to the system.

Tolerance is a gift and anything that does not affect you DIRECTLY should be none of your business !

It is VERY easy to stay legal in Thailand and as such all the crackdowns will NOT affect anybody who is legal.

Anybody who chooses to be not legal has to deal with the authorities ! ... and with the authorities only !!!

Being on a wrong visa or working without a work permit is maybe not nice or social ... but it should never

be compared to being criminal !!!

BTW ... in terms of taxes and all this BS: Most foreigners who stay in Thailand on the wrong visa and without

work permit pay way more [indirect] taxes than most Thai people. So this point is pretty much nonsense.

As a question: Why can inhabitants on planet earth [which we all are] not simply go where ever they want to go ?

[mango66]

I think its correct way of a good citicen to announce such wrongdoers;

Assuming you're not a Thai pretending to be in a visa situation, you are not a citizen and you likely never will be because the Thais that control the system do not want you. You will always be a guest at most, and possibly an unwanted one even with the correct visa.

You think we are stupid as we take care for correct visas,

and to be a correct guest in this country;

The correct visa is all about giving you the peace of mind. If I were an employer I would not hire someone that was not legal, but having dealt with immigration departments in 4 countries (sometimes as an employer and sometimes as a worker), it is typically all a game. Bureaucrats tend to try and break things down into titles and short descriptions where you fit nicely into a category. Working in the IT industry, the DOT title description typically has little to do with reality (it might have been that way 40 years ago, but with the diversity of functions it does not work that way anymore). It has become a game of trying to fit the description to match a description in the government documentation so that someone that does not understand the industry will not reject the visa request based on a very narrow definition. In my home country (Canada) the only thing I really think are important about an immigrant is - are you being paid more than the prevailing wage for a local employee.... if yes -- then some employer thinks you are an asset to their company which tells me you are likely going to be an asset as a worker.

Any who cheat the visa system,

cheats also all people living with correct documents in this country;

Employment is never a zero-sum game. It is a very unscientific way to view things. Each employee, whether legal or illegal, is beneficial to the overall economy. A country has every right to determine who they want to work / be in the country. Remember a few months ago when the government had people running to the border (Cambodia) because they were afraid of the crackdown? How all of a sudden there was a panic about how it would damage the economy and they had to fix the situation? The lenience of dealing with "illegals" has been part of the way the system works here in Thailand. The focus should be to get rid of those that are involved in criminal activity (scams, fraud, etc.) -- but just because you are "legal" does not make you a virtuous individual. The quality of the average westerner is lower here - and there are plenty of legally documented people that are part of this problem.

Yes there is a big difference between canada and Thailand - and many other countries !

Some - or many nations defending their Country and soi,

because they for ever own it, and worrie someone might .......................

Did you, or Americans, Aussies ever owned your country ?

or did you buy it ?

or you just killed and took it ??

( dont come now with you made the country what it is - otherwise -

otherwise it could be still a paradise -

like was Koh Tao before farongs were coming !!

[J Bradley]

On 10 August, on another very well know Thailand oriented website, the topic of the lack of mutual support among Westerners here was discussed.

The following observation was made:-

"The one and only media outlet that has the reach to promote the position of Westerners in Thailand is the largest online discussion forum. With a greater reach amongst foreigners than the local newspapers and TV I believe many (perhaps subconsciously) look to it for leadership. What they get is a forum riddled with schadenfreude (malicious pleasure at the misfortune of others) and sanctimoniousness (acute self-righteousness)."

That's your answer I'm afraid.

I'm not sure if this is correct.

From what I've seen, a large chunk of the "schadenfreude" and "sanctimoniousness" comes from a very small group of posters, one of whom contributes to this forum more often than just about any other member and, in my opinion, is mentally ill.

The majority of contributors, whether prolific posters or otherwise, seem decent, helpful, and free of bigotry and pettiness.

[mango66]

I'm still confused by the title in the OP.

If someone does not have the correct visa to stay here, would they still be classed as an expat?

I would call them illigals and criminals

and handle them accordingly !!

Penalty, money. prison,

and banned for 1 century - not to be to bad :-))

Perfectly brainwashed and a good slave to the system.

Tolerance is a gift and anything that does not affect you DIRECTLY should be none of your business !

It is VERY easy to stay legal in Thailand and as such all the crackdowns will NOT affect anybody who is legal.

Anybody who chooses to be not legal has to deal with the authorities ! ... and with the authorities only !!!

Being on a wrong visa or working without a work permit is maybe not nice or social ... but it should never

be compared to being criminal !!!

BTW ... in terms of taxes and all this BS: Most foreigners who stay in Thailand on the wrong visa and without

work permit pay way more [indirect] taxes than most Thai people. So this point is pretty much nonsense.

As a question: Why can inhabitants on planet earth [which we all are] not simply go where ever they want to go ?

A little bit Marxism ??

make all the same, and share all equal;

Share your and yours country wealth with all ozther countrys - like Congo, Niger ,

please are this citicen also allowed in your country to come with an exempt stamp, boarder run

and work without permit ??

100ed of millions africans would like to share with your country immedeately -

di you invite them already ??

[Crazy chef 1]

people working on Tourist visas etc.

Since I am working legally here, including paying taxes, and paying a lot of money for that, I do mind others working on tourist visa and not having those expenses. That is really unfair competition.

I've been working for the past year on a tourist visa and paying taxes and let's be real about it tax ain't a huge percent of your salary in Thailand

so you dont consider 35% a "huge" percentage then ?

C'mon SP don't take the guy for serious.working+tourist visa+ paying taxes=something wrong. may he mean VAT and that's just 7% ...

[cacruden]

Yes there is a big difference between canada and Thailand - and many other countries !

Some - or many nations defending their Country and soi,

because they for ever own it, and worrie someone might .......................

Did you, or Americans, Aussies ever owned your country ?

or did you buy it ?

or you just killed and took it ??

( dont come now with you made the country what it is - otherwise -

otherwise it could be still a paradise -

like was Koh Tao before farongs were coming !!

Ha, brainwashed. In the past land was taken by force - there were no "democratic" governments. Empires fought other countries for territory.... you either won land or you lost it..... but you typically did not buy it. You had feudal systems where the elite were given land (that was won in war) and were given a patent and then charged peons for them to reside on it. If you look at the map of the world, the borders that are now are very young indeed - they moved, disappeared (conquered). A common way of clearing land was through genocide (if they refused to submit or leave) (Genghis Khan was a fine example of that). A fine paradise it was hundreds of years ago.... bring out your dead - the plague is here.

There are probably 1 million illegals in Canda, 12 to 20 million in the US. The dirty little secret is that illegal labour tends to be tolerated for slave level wages - politicians rail about it in public, but then don't crack down on it (i.e. make it prohibitively expensive in fines for hiring illegal workers). Lots of farm labour that is in the US are illegals - which keeps the cost of food down.

BTW, Isan is basically conquered Laos territory..... The largely Laosian people living in Isan did not immigrate, they were conquered

Edited September 27, 2014 by cacruden

[callaway]

Australian way is never dob in people. We call people who do this we call dogs. Let people do as they please, as it is not you, who are deputized to be the volunteer immigration officers. If they get caught legitimately then it is tough luck to them. Don't stoop so low as to be "a give up".

[gerry1011]

I don't complain about farangs who do whatever they want, with, or without, a visa of any type.

I don't care much about those mentioned above, as well as all those who allow themselves to criticize those above.

In fact, I am ok with anyone doing anything... It's not my business.

However, I don't like those mentioned above, who allow themselves to criticize me for being a Thailand Elite member, holding a long term PE visa that did not come free, and who constantly complain about the Thailand Elite program... for the sole reason that they can't afford it.

Everybody is free to make his own choices. It's a private matter... But you better make the right choice to be happy

Edited September 27, 2014 by gerry1011

[jspill]

The visa 'crackdown' hardly amounted to much. People are still staying on consecutive TR visas, the overstay blacklisting rules haven't been passed into law, language schools didn't start strictly enforcing attendance. One poster reported a school increasing tuition hours to keep immigration happy, but kept prices the same, knowing no one would turn up so they wouldn't need to hire more teachers to fill the classes. Only visa exemptions are really being scrutinized.

I'm not buying that the past actions of westerners exacerbated the miltary's decisions to any significant degree.

[Cypress Hill]

A little bit Marxism ??

make all the same, and share all equal;

Share your and yours country wealth with all ozther countrys - like Congo, Niger ,

please are this citicen also allowed in your country to come with an exempt stamp, boarder run

and work without permit ??

100ed of millions africans would like to share with your country immedeately -

di you invite them already ??

You should go home and join a right-wing political party - you could get a job brainwashing sheep into blaming their problems on immigrants

[mango66]

Yes there is a big difference between canada and Thailand - and many other countries !

Some - or many nations defending their Country and soi,

because they for ever own it, and worrie someone might .......................

Did you, or Americans, Aussies ever owned your country ?

or did you buy it ?

or you just killed and took it ??

( dont come now with you made the country what it is - otherwise -

otherwise it could be still a paradise -

like was Koh Tao before farongs were coming !!

Ha, brainwashed. In the past land was taken by force - there were no "democratic" governments. Empires fought other countries for territory.... you either won land or you lost it..... but you typically did not buy it. You had feudal systems where the elite were given land (that was won in war) and were given a patent and then charged peons for them to reside on it. If you look at the map of the world, the borders that are now are very young indeed - they moved, disappeared (conquered). A common way of clearing land was through genocide (if they refused to submit or leave) (Genghis Khan was a fine example of that). A fine paradise it was hundreds of years ago.... bring out your dead - the plague is here.

There are probably 1 million illegals in Canda, 12 to 20 million in the US. The dirty little secret is that illegal labour tends to be tolerated for slave level wages - politicians rail about it in public, but then don't crack down on it (i.e. make it prohibitively expensive in fines for hiring illegal workers). Lots of farm labour that is in the US are illegals - which keeps the cost of food down.

BTW, Isan is basically conquered Laos territory..... The largely Laosian people living in Isan did not immigrate, they were conquered

so you think it would be ok to treath illigal imigrants ( no or wrong visa )

like them in the USA,

I can agree on this either

[bimmerbob]

people working on Tourist visas etc.

Since I am working legally here, including paying taxes, and paying a lot of money for that, I do mind others working on tourist visa and not having those expenses. That is really unfair competition.

......jeez, there may be a handful working on a tourist visa, but please try not to prima-donna yourself. Every country on earth has someone working illegally, hardly a new thing, and not really worth making yourself believe otherwise, get a grip man!

[CharlieH]

Post removed.

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

8) You will not post disruptive or inflammatory messages, vulgarities, obscenities or profanities.

9) You will not post inflammatory messages on the forum, or attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its participants, or trolling. Trolling can be defined as the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet by posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

[Soutpeel]

Australian way is never dob in people. We call people who do this we call dogs. Let people do as they please, as it is not you, who are deputized to be the volunteer immigration officers. If they get caught legitimately then it is tough luck to them. Don't stoop so low as to be "a give up".

What would be your opinion of someone who publically threatened to dob in someone to the department of labour as they "know people" on this very forum not 24 hours ago and even published pertinent details about the poster on the thread ?

[mikecat]

I can see the point of view of legit workers getting upset because in the end it makes things harder for others, i.e the lowering of wages and conditions etc. However, there are quite a few hard working people who would like to be legit but the requirements of the Teachers Council, Immigration and the Labour department make it too hard or impossible for them. Accordingly, these workers end up being employed on low wages, poor conditions and constant visa runs. They also live under the threat of being caught and deported. So I also understand their situation too. What ever, I dont feel it is my business and certainly would not grass anybody up.

Unfortunately there is a small amount of people who visit TV who get some perveted kick out of anyones misfortunes, mistakes and discomfort.

[callaway]

Australian way is never dob in people. We call people who do this we call dogs. Let people do as they please, as it is not you, who are deputized to be the volunteer immigration officers. If they get caught legitimately then it is tough luck to them. Don't stoop so low as to be "a give up".

What would be your opinion of someone who publically threatened to dob in someone to the department of labour as they "know people" on this very forum not 24 hours ago and even published pertinent details about the poster on the thread ?

Soutpeel, I would consider them lower than a snakes a##. That is a dog act and I hope karma comes around, and not only bites him, but takes big chunks out of his a##.

Edited September 28, 2014 by callaway

[ATF]

It came to my attention that a Falung was picked up by the cops in a bar raid about ten days ago.

One of the other guys picked up was on overstay and grassed on him that he was working.

He was "fined" 1.4M Baht and deported at his expense and blacklisted from ever entering Thailand again.

[benalibina]

It came to my attention that a Falung was picked up by the cops in a bar raid about ten days ago.

One of the other guys picked up was on overstay and grassed on him that he was working.

He was "fined" 1.4M Baht and deported at his expense and blacklisted from ever entering Thailand again.

The moral of the story is.....

[ATF]

It came to my attention that a Falung was picked up by the cops in a bar raid about ten days ago.

One of the other guys picked up was on overstay and grassed on him that he was working.

He was "fined" 1.4M Baht and deported at his expense and blacklisted from ever entering Thailand again.

The moral of the story is.....

The moral of the story is whatever you would like it to be. I was just stating a fact.

[cacruden]

It came to my attention that a Falung was picked up by the cops in a bar raid about ten days ago.

One of the other guys picked up was on overstay and grassed on him that he was working.

He was "fined" 1.4M Baht and deported at his expense and blacklisted from ever entering Thailand again.

The moral of the story is.....

The moral of the story is that those that live in glass houses should not throw stones..... but most people don't live in glass houses

[jspill]

So don't work in a bar while on overstay and associate with people that will inform the authorities. Got it, thanks for the advice.

Edited September 29, 2014 by jspill

[iamariva1957]

Whether or not you think that some Farang folks reporting other Farang folks to Immigration (which is an unsubstantiated claim... by the way! Unless you can supply some proof that this is going on) are 'grasses' or not, the point is that no matter whether or not this "is their country" there are local laws that we as guests in this country have to follow. We may not like them, but that is too bad.

Those of us that are working here with the correct visas and are following the rules, pay taxes here (quite a expense) are doing what we are required to and so following the conditions and mandates of said visa/s. Those that are working here without the correct visas are making things difficult for those of us that are complying with the laws and that in and of itself is not only unfair, but it is unfair to the tourist industry as a whole as well as to the country itself.

Sorry, and I am not 'pounding the chest' of Thailand. I am just saying that in our own countries we expect those that come to visit and or work follow the laws regarding both. We would scream and yell at those that are not doing so. We complain that they are taking jobs away and that they are a burden on the system. So why should that be any different here.

For years the Thais have looked the other way. Sure there were the days of the Tea Money bit and Immigration officers who could not give a fig how many times you crossed over to get that new Visa Exempt stamp in your passport. But the fact is that those times are now done... at least for the time being for only time will tell as we are talking about Thailand after all.

As for reporting on our fellow Farangs... well... I am not my brothers keeper. If they are not doing anything against me or my family then what business is it of mine. It is not in my power to play Immigration Confidential Informer. Frankly, I know quite a few that are working here (private and with NGOs) that do not have the right visas and some that even believe that paying to be a volunteer requires no work permit. But I stay out of it. If they want to play roulette then it is at their risk. So my suggestion is, keep silent and mind your own business. Besides, why volunteer information? It could come back and bite you. Something I learned from my DI in the Army.

Edited September 29, 2014 by iamariva1957

[tonytigerbkk]

Australian way is never dob in people. We call people who do this we call dogs. Let people do as they please, as it is not you, who are deputized to be the volunteer immigration officers. If they get caught legitimately then it is tough luck to them. Don't stoop so low as to be "a give up".

What would be your opinion of someone who publically threatened to dob in someone to the department of labour as they "know people" on this very forum not 24 hours ago and even published pertinent details about the poster on the thread ?

Soutpeel, I would consider them lower than a snakes a##. That is a dog act and I hope karma comes around, and not only bites him, but takes big chunks out of his a##.

Actually Soutie is referring to me.

The poster put up details of where I am living, my business details and the area that my business is in, he did this two times just to try to cause major problems for me.

I received the threat on Saturday (on this board) that the poster would be sending the Immigration around to my company premises around the end of last.

As an update to this matter, this morning we had an immigration officer come to our offices and asked to see the Aliens documentation.

Everything, checked out ok, and that was the end of the story.

Now, I am not saying that the poster did try to grass me up to the Immigration Department but I find it rather strange that in over 16 years of working in Thailand I have never received a visit from immigration until a couple of days after this threat.

I suppose that the moral of the story is not to trust anyone on this forum.